Log in

View Full Version : Compound interest



Nyder
31st May 2004, 09:47
You know what I mean. You invest in something which returns interest, then add the interest back into the principal, as well as adding extra $$$ into it. Use the compound interest formula to see how long it takes. Then watch your money grow.

Just find a fund that invests in property or shares, or do it yourself.

It's not that hard. I'm certainly not wealthy, but it works for me.

Misodoctakleidist
31st May 2004, 11:11
That's exactly the problem with capitalism, as you've just pointed out; "it's not that hard," you just need money to make more and the more money you have the more you can make. I think you've just admitted that people aren't rich becuase they have "virtue" or any other randian crap.

Hoppe
31st May 2004, 11:31
Nyder just has a short time-preference, a concept unknown to you.

Hiero
31st May 2004, 12:38
Is this interest taxed in anyway. And what happens when teh market gets turned upside down.

Shredder
31st May 2004, 16:34
I invest my life savings of $5.

Rich_Banker_10 invests his life savings of $5 billion.

And the rich get richer.

And yet, on top of the fact that the rich get more simply by investing more, you have to look at the cost of living. If it costs 15 cents a day minimum to live, and our incomes are 30 cents a day versus $5k a day, I'm only able to invest half my wage, wheras richboy lives lavishly and doesn't even notice the cost of food and shelter.

No amount of virtue or effort will ever change the ridiculous distribution of wealth under capitalism.

Y2A
31st May 2004, 16:42
If it's a bad investment then the investor loses. No investment is ever a sure thing.

gaf
31st May 2004, 16:57
eat the richs....you also can "invest"in time and ideas if you have some.and of course you have....

monkeydust
31st May 2004, 17:28
Yes you get more dollars.

But what about inflation?

Fidelbrand
31st May 2004, 20:40
i hate usury.

This traces back to the basic problem -----> Importance of monetary values emphasized in capitalism.... watch your soul rots as materialistic desires gets hyped like a rocket, while this interest can be used to save those of your similar species who are starved like puppets.

Nyder
1st June 2004, 03:26
Read anyone of those 'financial self-help' books. They all say the same thing. That's why it's good to create so much wealth. Other people can buy into it. I actually profited from Matrix Reloaded. You just have to know where to put your money and the market conditions. Realistically, there is no distribution of wealth, just people who create wealth.

percept¡on
1st June 2004, 03:44
Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 03:26 AM
Read anyone of those 'financial self-help' books. They all say the same thing. That's why it's good to create so much wealth. Other people can buy into it. I actually profited from Matrix Reloaded. You just have to know where to put your money and the market conditions. Realistically, there is no distribution of wealth, just people who create wealth.
the only way to create wealth is through labor. All you do is accumulate wealth, or more properly, expropriate wealth.

revolutionindia
1st June 2004, 05:07
Nyder Do you invest in stocks?

I love stocks :)

The problem with this compound interest is in a year you might
single digit returns depending on how much the bank rate is.

Stocks can give you these returns in a single day.
But the risk is more.

Any given day you should invest in stocks than fixed deposits.

HankMorgan
1st June 2004, 05:17
Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2004, 12:34 PM
I invest my life savings of $5.

Rich_Banker_10 invests his life savings of $5 billion.

And the rich get richer.

And yet, on top of the fact that the rich get more simply by investing more, you have to look at the cost of living. If it costs 15 cents a day minimum to live, and our incomes are 30 cents a day versus $5k a day, I'm only able to invest half my wage, wheras richboy lives lavishly and doesn't even notice the cost of food and shelter.

No amount of virtue or effort will ever change the ridiculous distribution of wealth under capitalism.
Yes, the Rich_Banker_10 invests his life savings of $5 billion and creates 45000 jobs in 8 nations.

As for the distribution of wealth, in a free society it will be as great as the distribution in human ability and as broad as the spread in drive and ambition. Where the wealth is distributed equally (as if wealth just exists and all we have to do is distribute it) you can be absolutely certain it is not a free society.

Wealth is created not distributed.

apathy maybe
1st June 2004, 06:20
Wealth maybe created. But resources aren't. That is the problem with capitalism, what happens when you run out of resources? The answer being of course that the rich (i.e. the ones with resources) live and the poor (i.e. everyone else) die.

The whole idea of interest (in any form) is a bad one. Money creating money, right! I've got this bridge to sell you too. Money, representing resources, can not make more money, all that happens is it gets shifted around. And in the end screws the poor guy who is borrowing money from the bank and pays back twice what he borrowed.

Professor Moneybags
1st June 2004, 06:24
Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2004, 11:11 AM
That's exactly the problem with capitalism, as you've just pointed out; "it's not that hard," you just need money to make more and the more money you have the more you can make. I think you've just admitted that people aren't rich becuase they have "virtue" or any other randian crap.
You ignore the fact that "it's not that hard" for anyone to get rich and then complain about some people being able to get richer easier than others ?

You are the envious sort aren't you ?

Professor Moneybags
1st June 2004, 06:27
Here's another one...


I invest my life savings of $5.

Rich_Banker_10 invests his life savings of $5 billion.

And the rich get richer.

And yet, on top of the fact that the rich get more simply by investing more,


No amount of virtue or effort will ever change the ridiculous distribution of wealth under capitalism.

Money is made, not distributed, so it doesn't really matter who has what.

Professor Moneybags
1st June 2004, 06:29
Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2004, 08:40 PM
watch your soul rots as materialistic desires gets hyped like a rocket, while this interest can be used to save those of your similar species who are starved like puppets.
Pity you couldn't have reminded comrade Mao, comrade Stalin and comrade Mugabe about that.

Professor Moneybags
1st June 2004, 06:30
Originally posted by percept¡[email protected] 1 2004, 03:44 AM
the only way to create wealth is through labor. All you do is accumulate wealth, or more properly, expropriate wealth.
Not this $hit again. :rolleyes:

Fidelbrand
1st June 2004, 06:42
Originally posted by Professor Moneybags+Jun 1 2004, 06:29 AM--> (Professor Moneybags @ Jun 1 2004, 06:29 AM)
[email protected] 31 2004, 08:40 PM
watch your soul rots as materialistic desires gets hyped like a rocket, while this interest can be used to save those of your similar species who are starved like puppets.
Pity you couldn't have reminded comrade Mao, comrade Stalin and comrade Mugabe about that. [/b]
it's more of a pity that you seems just to care for yourself & get hooked by the system and its operational dogmas. :P

Osman Ghazi
1st June 2004, 13:01
Yes, the Rich_Banker_10 invests his life savings of $5 billion and creates 45000 jobs in 8 nations.

As for the distribution of wealth, in a free society it will be as great as the distribution in human ability and as broad as the spread in drive and ambition. Where the wealth is distributed equally (as if wealth just exists and all we have to do is distribute it) you can be absolutely certain it is not a free society.


Oh well praise God that he sends such great men as Rich_Banker_10 to come and look after us poor guys.


Wealth is created not distributed.

If you invest wealth, then you are giving it to other people hence distributing it R-tard.


You ignore the fact that "it's not that hard" for anyone to get rich and then complain about some people being able to get richer easier than others ?


It's 'not that hard' if you already have money. That's the whole point. If you have no money, then it is very difficult, isn't it? And besides, why should some douchebag whose father made a million bucks get to never work a day in his life? He doesn't necessarily have any great ambition or ability, does he?

h&s
1st June 2004, 13:34
Pity you couldn't have reminded comrade Mao, comrade Stalin and comrade Mugabe about that.


"Comrade Mao" is no comrade of mine. He was an authoritarian who based his ideas on Leninism, and Leninism was about dictatorship, not soviet rule.
"Comrade Stalin" Iwould say that he is not a comrade of any serious person on this website.
And "Comrade Mugabe?" Where did you get that from? No-one here supports fascists.

Professor Moneybags
1st June 2004, 14:29
Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 06:42 AM
it's more of a pity that you seems just to care for yourself & get hooked by the system and its operational dogmas. :P
A dogma is something based on faith. I don't "do" faith.


If you invest wealth, then you are giving it to other people hence distributing it R-tard.

If you put your money in a bank, is the money yours or the bank's ?

Fidelbrand
1st June 2004, 14:49
Originally posted by Professor Moneybags+Jun 1 2004, 02:29 PM--> (Professor Moneybags @ Jun 1 2004, 02:29 PM)
[email protected] 1 2004, 06:42 AM
it's more of a pity that you seems just to care for yourself & get hooked by the system and its operational dogmas. :P
A dogma is something based on faith. I don't "do" faith. [/b]
you do believe in the universal correctness of a free market, don't you?

Saint-Just
1st June 2004, 15:08
Originally posted by hammer&[email protected] 1 2004, 01:34 PM

Pity you couldn't have reminded comrade Mao, comrade Stalin and comrade Mugabe about that.


"Comrade Mao" is no comrade of mine. He was an authoritarian who based his ideas on Leninism, and Leninism was about dictatorship, not soviet rule.
"Comrade Stalin" Iwould say that he is not a comrade of any serious person on this website.
And "Comrade Mugabe?" Where did you get that from? No-one here supports fascists.
I am a serious person and I support Mao, Stalin and to some extent Mugabe. The reason that you agree with this capitalist is that you possess the same consciousness as he.

If you possessed a revolutionary(Marxist) consciousness you would realise that all societies are dictatorships; class dictatorships. Mao and Stalin created societies that were dictatorships of the formerly oppressed class, the proletariat.

Fidelbrand
1st June 2004, 15:18
Chairman Mao is right in this sense.

Of course, there are dictators who used the scared name of socialism/communism to build their personal powers, but sure we can distinguish the good and the bad rulers.

(then a cappie comes up and say," that is still man ruling man!!" So ???? I think the "system" ruling man is more dehumanizing and more hapless,... ah?)

Shredder
1st June 2004, 19:41
If wealth is created, it is not created simply by owning.

I am not talking about the Labor Theory of Value. I'm talking about Theory of Usury Does Not Create Value.

Capitalists do not create wealth, they buy the rights to it.

And when I talk about the distribution of wealth, I'm talking about something undeniably real. I'm talking about a reality that can be put into numbers; I'm talking about the self-similar "fat tail" graph which describes x percent of the population owning y percent of the wealth. The exponential curve of such a graph matches up not with your fairy-tale propaganda about people creating wealth, but with my scientific law of people buying wealth. Of course, the bourgeois theorists have been quick to annihilate any complaints about the distribution of wealth that sprout up. As soon as an open minded economist discovers that 20 percent of the people own 80 percent of the wealth, a more conniving economist declares that it is a vital law, not of capitalism, but of all things that 20 percent of a sample is responsible for 80 percent of a given activity. "20% of the beavers actually build 80% of the lodges!" they declare. "It is a harmonious law of nature, it is sacred and beautiful. Let us now sacrifice a goat to the holy market to give it thanks and praise." But where the open minded economist based his conclusion on numbers and the scientific method, the conniving bougeoisie announced their explanation by pulling it out of their asses. Here we see the quintessence of bourgeois academia: not striving to study and explain something, but striving to paint it as an eternal law of nature. In reality, this wealth distribution is an eternal law not of nature but of a particular system where wealth buys wealth.

The amount of wealth that a man buys is proportional to the wealth that he already owns. The infinitesimal, temporary deviations in the distribution of wealth do not deny the existence of the distribution any more than oceanic waves deny the existence of sea level.

Capitalism stopped improving the standard of living long ago. Now every time the wealth of the world doubles, all of it goes to the top. Ask any network/small-world theorist. Because of the law of distribution of wealth in capitalists society, because wealth goes not to he whose hands fashioned it but to he who rented the hands, it doesn't matter how many jobs the bourgeoisie accidentally create through their investments--the wealth of the world would have to multiply by obscene factors before the majority saw a whole dollar of it.

The only way for the vast majority of this world to pursue their rational self interests, to move their lives and the lives of their children forward, is to abolish the capitalist system and replace it with a meritocratic, classless, international society, where all wealth is based on labor and not gold. Where a demand for a new product is a demand for the labor to create it, and thus ambitious peoples create their fortunes by investing their labor instead of their fortunes. Only in a classless society can man be measured the capacity of his character instead of the capacity of his bank account. As long as there is a free market there can be no free people, and when people are free, it will be because together they enslave the market.

lucid
1st June 2004, 19:45
If this guy thinks whenever "the wealth of the world doubles, all of it goes to the top.." he obviously hasn't seen one of these wellfare whores with 10 kids pull out the 'ol food stamp credit card that the US government hands out. Those slackers eat better than I do?!?!

Shredder
1st June 2004, 21:27
If the welfare whores eat better than you do, it can only be because they are more virtuous.

lucid
1st June 2004, 22:49
Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 09:27 PM
If the welfare whores eat better than you do, it can only be because they are more virtuous.
Right, she is more virtuos. Multiple kids by different fathers, never married, uses food stamps to buy food but can afford $200 shoes.

Your an idiot. Go do more drugs.

Hampton
1st June 2004, 23:04
It's a funny thing you say that though because whenever you her hear people spout off the reasons why she might be like that it seems to be because she dosen't work hard enough or she was lazy, but for you it is becuase the system seems to favor poor women with 10 kids opposed to you, right?

Not to mention the government handing out temporary solutions to what seems to be a permanent problem is something to be jealous of.

Professor Moneybags
2nd June 2004, 08:44
Originally posted by Fidelbrand+Jun 1 2004, 02:49 PM--> (Fidelbrand @ Jun 1 2004, 02:49 PM)
Originally posted by Professor [email protected] 1 2004, 02:29 PM

[email protected] 1 2004, 06:42 AM
it's more of a pity that you seems just to care for yourself & get hooked by the system and its operational dogmas. :P
A dogma is something based on faith. I don't "do" faith.
you do believe in the universal correctness of a free market, don't you? [/b]
I prefer it's correct prices to your "acceptable" prices.

Nyder
2nd June 2004, 12:26
Shredder,

When Bill Gates makes an extra dollar, the beggar on the street is not worse off. Bill Gates did not take that dollar from the beggar on the street.

If you kill all of the rich people in the world, take their money, and give it to the poor people of the world - they may benefit for a short while, but this money would be de-valued extremely quickly. Soon it would worthless. The poor will still be destitute. Money does not create wealth, it is only a measure of wealth.

People start businesses not to produce for the benefit of humanity, but because they want to make money. This is like benevolent self-interest. If you take them over and control the cashflow of their conceptual creation, they will not bother.

Labour creates commodities, but what values this labour. Maybe you just can't grasp the fact that people tend to value the labour of a CEO a lot more then a standard factory worker. Actually, it makes sense if you think about it.

Sabocat
2nd June 2004, 12:45
Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 02:45 PM
If this guy thinks whenever "the wealth of the world doubles, all of it goes to the top.." he obviously hasn't seen one of these wellfare whores with 10 kids pull out the 'ol food stamp credit card that the US government hands out. Those slackers eat better than I do?!?!
Like all right wingers the reality of welfare is drastically different than your warped perspective. Nice job generalizing the poor as "wel(l)fare whores".

Here are some realities of welfare.


Shredding The Safety Net:
Welfare Reform As We Know It
Food First Backgrounder, Winter 1998



"At Colonel Sanders they used to put the left-overs in the garbage bin. There used to be 10 to 15 people every night looking for food in the garbage, including myself-just looking for something to eat. I have really seen hunger, especially in the faces of children. I know it's hard on them. It was hard on me."
Rufus Herold, former homeless senior, now on the staff at St Mary's Center, Oakland

Rufus Herold may not be an expert on welfare reform, but he does know about hunger. Herold could write a book on his experiences while looking for something to eat. Today he helps other seniors find their way out of dehumanizing hunger, poverty, and homelessness.
While Herold ladles out soup, our government leaders tell us that the economy is booming, with low employment, rising incomes, and shrinking welfare rolls. But more and more people are sliding through the cracks. Herold wishes that policy makers, who have never known hunger, could get a closer look at the people waiting in food lines. Then maybe they would understand, and maybe they would change things.
On August 22, 199G in the Rose Garden of the White House, President Clinton signed into law the Orwellian-sounding Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act, better known as Welfare Reform, the most sweeping change in our welfare system in sixty years. With his signature, Clinton's talk of "not punishing or preaching" became indistinguishable from the Republican Party's poor-bashing Contract with America. How Mr. Clinton slid from a welfare plan that would have added about $10 billion more in spending to embracing one that would cut $54 billion is a sad tale of American politics. Furthermore, it raises the specter of systematic violations of basic human rights here in the United States of America, if we are judged by the international standards of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, adopted fifty years ago by the United Nations General Assembly.
In this report we tally the impact of welfare reform, expose seldom reported corporate profit-taking, and conflict of interest in privatizing parts of the system, and examine the human rights implications of current policies. We end with a call to join our Economic Human Rights: The Time Has Come! campaign.
CHANGES IN THE WELFARE SYSTEM
On the eve of passage of the new welfare act, the Urban Institute estimated that 2.G million people- including 1.1 million children-would be pushed into poverty, and 1 million families would lose all Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC) funding. [The U.S. already has the highest child poverty rate in the industrialized world.] In addition, state cutbacks could push another 2.5-7.5 million people into poverty.
According to the report, 11 million families-10 percent of all American families-would lose income under the bill, including more than 8 million families with children.
Welfare reform couples budget cuts with delegation of responsibility to the states. AFDC has been replaced by Temporary Assistance to Needy Families (TANF) block grants. AFDC provided monthly cash benefits to 12.8 million including more than 8 million children; almost as many whites as blacks, with women accounting for nine out of 10 adult recipients. AFDC rules were national-under TANF states create and implement their own rules. Now there is no guarantee that all who need help will receive it. A significant problem is that the $1G.4 billion provided yearly in block grants contains no additional new funding for job creation, training, or placement. The federal funding level is fixed until the year 2002 with no provision for inflation, population growth, or increased unemployment. Furthermore, states can lose their block grants if they do not remove enough people from the rolls, whether those people find work or not.
Food stamps have been slashed. More than half of the $54 billion in welfare cuts ($27.7 billion) are coming from the food stamps that 25 million poor Americans depend on. Over 80 percent of food stamps go to families with children. Another $3 billion has been cut from child nutrition programs, including child care and summer care programs. Food stamps for adults without dependents have been slashed to three months out of every three years, and anyone convicted of felony drug charges is now denied food stamps and all other benefits.
The new law requires most recipients to find work within two years, and imposes a cumulative life-time limit of five years on benefits paid with federal money, with states free to impose shorter time limits if they like. Mothers who do not or cannot help establish their children's paternity, have their regular welfare payments cut by as much as 25 percent. Federal funding for social services has been cut by a six-year total of $2.5 billion.
Welfare reform cut social security income for some disabled, food stamps for almost 900,000 legal immigrants who formerly received SSI, and for nearly all future immigrants. SSI benefits were restored later to some 250,000 immigrants who were in the U.S. by August 22, 199G. States still have the option of denying immigrants Medicaid and welfare. New immigrants are excluded from most programs, including Medicaid, for the first five years they are in the U.S. This is a $22 billion cut over the six year period, accounting for about 40 percent of the total cuts in the reform bill.
Those completely cut off to date have been mostly immigrants and disabled children. The definition of SSI eligibility for disabled children has been narrowed, denying benefits for 315,000 of the 9G5,000 low-income children previously covered. Others will be cut off when the new time limits go into effect, in a maximum of four years, or less if a state so chooses, or when a recession hits.
THE FIRST CASUALTIES
By the first anniversary of the law, there were 9.9 million people left on welfare-a drop of more than 2.2 million. This dramatic shrinkage conveys the impression that welfare reform has been a resounding success. While administration officials rush to take credit for the decline in welfare rolls, some acknowledge that they do not know what has happened to families who have lost assistance.
FOOD BANKS ARE STRAINING
Welfare reform has hit hardest those who cannot afford to buy or grow enough food to feed themselves and their families. The food stamp cuts average $4 billion per year while the total value of all food in all food banks in the country is just $1 billion a year. Second Harvest, the country's largest chain of food banks, reported in 1997 that it provided some food for almost 2G million people-nearly 10 percent of America's population. Not all who needed food received it; an estimated 2.3 million hungry people were turned away because of lack of food.
To compensate fully for the government cuts in food programs each of the 350,000 churches in the U.S. would have to contribute an average of $150,000. Very few churches have total budgets that large. To make up for the shortfall, the non-profit sector would have to distribute a total of 24.5 billion pounds of food over the next six years; four times more than current distribution-and enough to fill 5 million Army National Guard trucks.
Total federal spending for food programs before welfare reform was only 2.5 percent of the federal budget. Economists expect that cutting these programs is actually going to cost the government more through increased health care and other costs of hunger.
STATE CUTS: BALANCING THE BUDGET ON THE BACKS OF THE POOR
The promise of welfare reform was to improve the economic well-being of poor families. This goal, however, is not being achieved in most states. Under TANF block grants, 42 states have adopted policies that are likely to worsen the economic security of poor families, and 35 have implemented policies that push many families with children off the rolls. Changes that have reduced economic security for low-income families include reducing benefits and restricting eligibility; time limits for benefits; work requirements; restrictions for legal immigrant families; limited assistance in obtaining work; and limited subsidized child char.
Many states have adopted stricter work requirements and shorter time limits than Congress and the President envisioned, with 45 states and the District of Columbia either adopting the federal lifetime limit of 60 months, or imposing stricter limits. Texas has the shortest limit of 12 months. Tennessee's is 18 consecutive months and Connecticut's is 21 months. Ten states have 24 month limits. Idaho offers a flat grant of $27G per month, while West Virginia's benefits are capped at $477 per month, and Wisconsin's are $518 or $555 per month, without regard for family size.
Federal law requires adults to work within two years of receiving cash assistance, but several states have adopted stricter work requirements. Florida, Tennessee, and Texas expect adult welfare recipients to go to work immediately. And at least 19 states do not increase payments for women who have additional children while receiving public assistance.
CATCH 22: SHORTAGE OF LIVING WAGE JOBS
"Work!" It is an order to recipients, a philosophy for administrators, and a mandate under Federal law. Welfare reform is big on personal responsibility but short on work opportunities. Minimum wage jobs coupled with a severe shortage of subsidized child care make working impossible for many recipients.
Many cities have actually lost jobs over the past five to ten years. Since 1990 New York City, with more than 300,000 adults in the AFDC case load, lost 227,000 jobs. Many remaining jobs do not pay enough to support a family. The odds against a typical welfare recipient finding a job that pays a living wage are about 97 to 1 in the midwestern states of Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Minnesota, Ohio, and Wisconsin. The non-partisan California Budget Project calculated that for every available job in California, there are seven welfare recipients and unemployed workers. The odds are even worse in 17 California counties where unemployment is at recession-level 11 percent or greater.
For most of the population targeted for "welfare-to-work," job prospects are about as grim as the average worker faced during the depression. Hard hit are women, especially single mothers with no high school diploma and little work experience. Women with less than a high school education face an unemployment rate of 13.G percent and an underemployment rate of 24.3 percent. For black women, many of whom live in areas where jobs are particularly scare, the rates are 20.9 percent and 35 percent, respectively. A serious obstacle is the low wage that women leaving welfare can expect to earn. Women leaving welfare usually find low-paid service, administrative, and clerical positions, mostly at minimum wage. This doesn't pay enough to support a family.
THE CHILD CARE NIGHTMARE
For many welfare recipients, the most serious obstacle to gaining employment is the lack of child care. Almost half the children supported by AFDC were under age six, and in a survey about one-third of unemployed welfare recipients cited lack of child care as reason for their unemployment. Requiring TANF recipients to work for their benefits has greatly increased the need for child care. Of the G.5 million children under the age of 13 in welfare households, only 19 percent receive federally subsidized day care.
WELFARE CUTS HURT ALL WORKERS
Across the country, thousands of people on welfare are going to work, but generally not at new jobs. Instead many are replacing employees whose salaries were higher. This displacement is falling most heavily on the 38 million working poor holding jobs that pay $7.50 an hour or less. It is projected that the influx of former welfare recipients into the low-wage labor market will lower workers' wages by 12 percent by the year 2000.23 Workers who make $7 per hour could see their wages fall by roughly 84 cents per hour.
The expected fall in wages is steeper for states that have a larger welfare population: 17.8 percent in California and 17.1 percent in New York. The total income lost by these workers nationwide is projected at $3G billion a year-$8.5 billion more than total federal and state spending on AFDC in 1994. In San Francisco, the city's "workfare" program requires able-bodied adults who receive general assistance to do "community service," a euphemism for clean-up work. Recipients get $5.31 an hour, where unionized janitors would earn about $15 an hour plus benefits. This makes it nearly impossible to unionize janitors, as employers threaten to replace them with workfare recipients. This is actually a more general phenomenon: when wages at the lower end of the economic ladder are depressed, those on all the higher rungs are eventually pulled down as well.
DOES WELFARE REFORM VIOLATE BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS?
Fifty years ago the United Nations General Assembly adopted the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR). Inspired by the belief that human dignity requires both freedom from fear and freedom from want, the UDHR proclaimed the interdependence and indivisibility of civil-political and economic-social human rights. It affirmed that all people have a right to an adequate standard of living, special care and assistance for mothers and children, education, and adequate employment.
Imposing time limits in the new welfare system without sufficient living-wage jobs and training, clearly denies adequate employment for millions. Low wage employment combined with food stamp cuts, makes it impossible for them to rise above the government's definition of poverty even though they may work full time. This violates the UDHR. Those who are completely excluded- people with drug felony charges, children born after mothers have been on aid for 10 consecutive months (the "family cap"), unwed parents under age 18, undocumented immigrants, and others-are guaranteed no economic and social human rights at all. Ending support to children with disabilities is mean spirited and clearly falls outside of the UDHR as well.
The right to education for parents is severely compromised under current policy. TANF recipients are now limited to 12 months of training, and can no longer enroll in four-year college programs. Moreover, stringent work requirements and the severe shortage of child care make the pursuit of any educational program almost impossible.
Coerced workfare recipients are denied their right to even a minimum wage and have no right to unionize. Furthermore, some workfare sites do not provide worker's compensation insurance, placing the health and safety of recipients at risk. In our America of "personal responsibility" and welfare reform, the basic economic and social human rights guaranteed under the UDHR are being systematically violated.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Economic...gSafetyNet.html (http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Economics/ShreddingSafetyNet.html)

Professor Moneybags
2nd June 2004, 16:46
DOES WELFARE REFORM VIOLATE BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS?
Fifty years ago the United Nations General Assembly adopted the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR). Inspired by the belief that human dignity requires both freedom from fear and freedom from want,

How very generous of them. Who's money do they intend to use to pursue this lofty goal ? It's a safe bet it won't be their own.

This has already been dicussed. Positive rights (to goods and services) means that someone is (usually forcibly) obliged to provide these goods and services.

What is that, if not "exploitation" ?


the UDHR proclaimed the interdependence and indivisibility of civil-political and economic-social human rights. It affirmed that all people have a right to an adequate standard of living, special care and assistance for mothers and children, education, and adequate employment.

To be provided by who and will they ask their permission ?

Sabocat
2nd June 2004, 17:33
What is that, if not "exploitation"

Proper re-distribution of wealth.

Hoppe
2nd June 2004, 17:51
Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2004, 05:33 PM

What is that, if not "exploitation"

Proper re-distribution of wealth.
Aka slavery

Sabocat
2nd June 2004, 18:11
How is giving the slave an equal distribution of profit of his labor slavery?

Professor Moneybags
2nd June 2004, 19:08
Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2004, 06:11 PM
How is giving the slave an equal distribution of profit of his labor slavery?
He's not a slave. Take note of lucid's sig :

"Do not make the mistake...of thinking that a worker is a slave and that he holds his job by his employer's permission. He does not hold it by permission - but by contract, that is, by a voluntary mutual agreement. A worker can quit his job; a slave cannot."

Hoppe
2nd June 2004, 19:11
Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2004, 06:11 PM
How is giving the slave an equal distribution of profit of his labor slavery?
Profit doesn't mean anything in monopolies and LTV doesn't apply to capitalism.

Therefor, positive rights are slavery, since I must do something. Positive rights can only be enforced by goverments so I don't see why you can have positive rights in communism (who is going to FORCE me to help you?). Positive rights in capitalism are also fake things because in order to enforce these rights, you have to infringe on other people's right to voluntarily make a mutally agreed exchange, thus abandoning capitalist principles.

So saying that it's ethically good to help others is fine by me, saying that people have a (positive) right to something is simply false.

HankMorgan
3rd June 2004, 05:01
Originally posted by apathy [email protected] 1 2004, 02:20 AM
Wealth maybe created. But resources aren't. That is the problem with capitalism, what happens when you run out of resources? The answer being of course that the rich (i.e. the ones with resources) live and the poor (i.e. everyone else) die.

The whole idea of interest (in any form) is a bad one. Money creating money, right! I've got this bridge to sell you too. Money, representing resources, can not make more money, all that happens is it gets shifted around. And in the end screws the poor guy who is borrowing money from the bank and pays back twice what he borrowed.
Well there you are, Apathy, having just finished harvesting wheat when your neighbor comes over to borrow your sickle so he can harvest his wheat. All the commies on che-lives (long may it prosper) have both a hammer and a sickle. You loan it to him and a day later he returns the sickle. Out of gratitude he gives you a bushel of the wheat he harvested.

At the end of the next growing season your neighbor comes to borrow your sickle again. This time you're using your sickle so instead you loan him $100 to buy his own sickle. Your neighbor goes away and comes back a day later. He repays the $100 you loaned him. Again because he is so thankful for your help he gives you a bushel of the wheat from his harvest.

Another growing season passes, you're out harvesting wheat when your neighbor comes to borrow your sickle again. In your mind you wonder what he did with the sickle you loaned him money to buy last year but you hold your tongue and loan him $100 to buy another sickle. He goes away and comes back a day later. Once again he repays the $100 you loaned him. This time he says he had a big order to fill so he has no extra wheat to show his gratitude with. Instead he hands you another $10 to show his gratitude.

There you have it. From your point of view, Apathy Maybe, money created money. Where did the extra $10 (and the extra bushels of wheat) come from? They were created by the hard work of your neighbor along with your help in the form of loans of money and a sickle.

Really people. Wealth is not finite in quantity. It is the potentially infinite product of a process of creation. The most sacred, the most important goal of a society or government is to protect and nurture the process that creates wealth. We need to feed the goose that lays the golden eggs not throttle it.

As for resources, you are right, they aren't equally distributed. But to a point it doesn't matter. Look at Hong Kong and Japan. Two countries that prosper nicely with next to no resources. Now look at the Soviet Union. Easily the richest nation on the planet when it comes to resources yet they couldn't even feed themselves. Ideas matter.

apathy maybe
3rd June 2004, 06:09
While you say from my point of view money created money, from the neighbour's pov it didn't. And that's the point; you have to look at these things from outside your own little box (be that box be your circle, state, country or rich countries).

Capitalism may work well in the USA, but it doesn't work at all in most sub-Saharan countries.

Professor Moneybags
3rd June 2004, 06:48
Originally posted by apathy [email protected] 3 2004, 06:09 AM
Capitalism may work well in the USA, but it doesn't work at all in most sub-Saharan countries.
They've never tired it.

Fidelbrand
3rd June 2004, 06:52
Originally posted by Professor Moneybags+Jun 3 2004, 06:48 AM--> (Professor Moneybags @ Jun 3 2004, 06:48 AM)
apathy [email protected] 3 2004, 06:09 AM
Capitalism may work well in the USA, but it doesn't work at all in most sub-Saharan countries.
They've never tired it. [/b]
tired of it / tried it ? :blink:

They won't have a chance, oh no, wait... they might...---> to be the victim of exploitation under capitalism if they are resourceful enough to entice imperialistic capitalism.

Rasta Sapian
4th June 2004, 07:54
Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2004, 09:47 AM
You know what I mean. You invest in something which returns interest, then add the interest back into the principal, as well as adding extra $$$ into it. Use the compound interest formula to see how long it takes. Then watch your money grow.

Just find a fund that invests in property or shares, or do it yourself.

It's not that hard. I'm certainly not wealthy, but it works for me.
great idea! so lets say my name is geroge bush, and already own my own oil company ie.shares, but i demand more compound interest as well as the ability to monopolize the demand market, so I look to expand my holdings ie. stock to the middle east, and what do you know the price of oil is going through the roof right now!

you can be a smart investor just like Bush, so invest your money in crude oil stock, and watch your dividends grow.

ooops, I forgot, the masses and I have no money to invest, :(
i guess food is my investment, its too bad that the compounding of my stomach only gives me shit back :lol:

so everybody lets take from the poor ie.gas pumps and give to the rich, compounded interest propelled by the damand world market!

peace in the middle east, lay off bush!

peace yall

Hiero
4th June 2004, 09:02
If it is so simple, how come everyone isnt rich, surely it would spread through the people.

Nyder
5th June 2004, 04:25
Rasta Sapian,

You don't need to be rich to invest. Most average income earners have the potential to take out loans, and gear that to make future investments. It is easy for anyone who knows how.

It's just that I guess capitalism provides too many nice things to buy and people tend to focus more on consumption then investment (though that is slowly changing).

HankMorgan
5th June 2004, 06:47
Originally posted by apathy [email protected] 3 2004, 02:09 AM
While you say from my point of view money created money, from the neighbour's pov it didn't. And that's the point; you have to look at these things from outside your own little box (be that box be your circle, state, country or rich countries).

Capitalism may work well in the USA, but it doesn't work at all in most sub-Saharan countries.
From your neighbor's point of view he created the extra $10 and the extra bushels of wheat through his efforts with a little assistance from you.

Let's take this a little further. To restate the position: Wealth does not just exist. It is the product of a process of creation. The sacred duty of society is protect the process that creates wealth. I submit to you that the very act of redistributing wealth is an attack on the process that creates wealth.

How hard would you work if you knew your efforts would be handsomely rewarded? How hard would you work if you knew you wouldn't be rewarded at all? I leave it to you to decide what the word reward means. Pick something that has value to you.

DaCuBaN
5th June 2004, 18:16
How hard would you work if you knew your efforts would be handsomely rewarded? How hard would you work if you knew you wouldn't be rewarded at all?

Personally, I consider this to be the fundamental gulf between the left and the right - or at least the different kinds of people who populate them. On one side you have those who would be willing to work for no personal gain, and those who will always ask 'What's in it for me?'.

Guevara called it the 'revolution of the mind' - being able to realise that you, as one person are of no importance, and that only your actions count.

Personally, I wouldn't like to think that all I have done with my life is seek personal gratification.

Nyder
6th June 2004, 00:50
Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2004, 06:16 PM

How hard would you work if you knew your efforts would be handsomely rewarded? How hard would you work if you knew you wouldn't be rewarded at all?

Personally, I consider this to be the fundamental gulf between the left and the right - or at least the different kinds of people who populate them. On one side you have those who would be willing to work for no personal gain, and those who will always ask 'What's in it for me?'.

Guevara called it the 'revolution of the mind' - being able to realise that you, as one person are of no importance, and that only your actions count.

Personally, I wouldn't like to think that all I have done with my life is seek personal gratification.
I thought communists were opposed to slavery.

DaCuBaN
6th June 2004, 01:21
You don't need to be rich to invest. Most average income earners have the potential to take out loans, and gear that to make future investments. It is easy for anyone who knows how.

It's just that I guess capitalism provides too many nice things to buy and people tend to focus more on consumption then investment

This is an incredibly misleading statement. Do you mean most median or mean average income earners? The latter could certainly, but the former is far lower than the latter and as such most likely couldn't raise the funds to start investing.


I thought communists were opposed to slavery

How can someone be a slave when there are no slavers, nor a state to enslave them?

Nice attempt at a sidetrack though, carry on :lol:


Guevara called it the 'revolution of the mind' - being able to realise that you, as one person are of no importance, and that only your actions count.

Personally, I wouldn't like to think that all I have done with my life is seek personal gratification.

Evidently you have not come to the realisation of your utter lack of self-worth, but would you agree with the latter?

dark fairy
6th June 2004, 07:15
well i live in a capitalist country and me and my family are doing fine... but see that is the thing if you don't own a bussines of your own or something like that you are pretty much screwed because you go from paycheck to paycheck... see that is the thing there are opportinities to make more money that isn't coming from your work place and job... stock market is one... i don't know... but it's funny living in a capitalist nation when i have a communist heart

Professor Moneybags
6th June 2004, 07:32
Originally posted by comrade [email protected] 4 2004, 09:02 AM
If it is so simple, how come everyone isnt rich, surely it would spread through the people.
It does. Compare the pay of a labourer in your country to that of a labourer in Africa.

Professor Moneybags
6th June 2004, 07:44
Guevara called it the 'revolution of the mind' - being able to realise that you, as one person are of no importance, and that only your actions count.

So there will be no moral baggage when it comes to shooting/enslaving you (or 100 million of you ?), seeing as you are worthless/of no importance. That's nice.


How can someone be a slave when there are no slavers, nor a state to enslave them?

When you are being forced to work fot the benefit of others, then you are a slave. The people who do this forcing are slavers, whether that be the government or society. Or are you still under this impression that a human being can be conditioned (like Pavlov's dog) to enjoy being a sucker ?

DaCuBaN
6th June 2004, 18:42
So there will be no moral baggage when it comes to shooting/enslaving you (or 100 million of you ?), seeing as you are worthless/of no importance

Conveniently, you missed the bit about being of individual importance


being able to realise that you, as one person are of no importance, and that only your actions count

That wasn't so painful now, was it... :lol:


When you are being forced to work fot the benefit of others, then you are a slave.

If this is how you feel when you help people out, then I pity you.

Under capitalism of course, we are all still 'wage slaves' - We need to earn money to survive by selling our labour in whatever form it takes. Under true communism of course, there is noone to force you to do the work at all

We require your good will to continue and do your fair share of the work

If you consider this unreasonable? Well, you're entitled to your opinion -
But I'll call you a fool.


The people who do this forcing are slavers, whether that be the government or society

Oh for crying out loud.

REVOLUTION OF THE MIND!

Why is this so difficult for you to understand? Communism isn't possible until people like you evolve a sense of social conscience.

What the hell scares you so much about that?


Or are you still under this impression that a human being can be conditioned (like Pavlov's dog) to enjoy being a sucker ?

Pavlov's experiment was an excellent and highly informative one, and helps us see why mankind appears to be 'happy' with the status quo.

Assuming that most people haven't heard of this experiment, I'll give a brief outline.

The dog was conditioned that when it heard a certain sound it knew it would receive a little 'cake' (pavlova) from its master.

In other words, it would be rewarded. In actuality this applies to capitalism, not communism.

Professor Moneybags
6th June 2004, 19:48
Under capitalism of course, we are all still 'wage slaves' - We need to earn money to survive by selling our labour in whatever form it takes.

So if we take wages out of the equation, we're no longer wage slaves. but...slaves. That's much better. Not.


We require your good will to continue and do your fair share of the work

If you consider this unreasonable? Well, you're entitled to your opinion -
But I'll call you a fool.

When the criterion are purely subjective and the good will enforced at the point of a gun, then it is unreasonable.


Why is this so difficult for you to understand? Communism isn't possible until people like you evolve a sense of social conscience.

In other words, it requires man to be something other than man. Whether or not that is a desirable goal is a question for another day; you don't need any "social conscience" to be civilized. If you will read the link I posted in the "primitive nature" thread, it explains the origins and consequences of the "social conscience" you speak of.


Pavlov's experiment was an excellent and highly informative one, and helps us see why mankind appears to be 'happy' with the status quo.

Not really, most couldn't care less about the status quo. If the revolution happened tommorrow, they wouldn't care either.


The dog was conditioned that when it heard a certain sound it knew it would receive a little 'cake' (pavlova) from its master.

In other words, it would be rewarded. In actuality this applies to capitalism, not communism.

Lol. How true. You would probably replace the reward with electric shocks (punishment) if it didn't comply.

DaCuBaN
6th June 2004, 20:20
So if we take wages out of the equation, we're no longer wage slaves. but...slaves

Again, you expertly avoided the point. You are a slave to your existence. You have made it perfectly clear that you would rather be a slave to yourself than to share that equally amongst your 'comrades', just as I have made it clear that I consider this state of mind to be a step behind in human evolution.


When the criterion are purely subjective and the good will enforced at the point of a gun, then it is unreasonable

Please, point to where I mentioned force.


In other words, it requires man to be something other than man. Whether or not that is a desirable goal is a question for another day; you don't need any "social conscience" to be civilized. If you will read the link I posted in the "primitive nature" thread, it explains the origins and consequences of the "social conscience" you speak of.


I've refuted the first part of that document, and will return to it when I get a chance. Hopefully this evening.

Again though, I must point out that I consider those who do not yet understand their social responsibilities to be inferior humans requiring enlightenment.


Not really, most couldn't care less about the status quo. If the revolution happened tommorrow, they wouldn't care either

True, but irrelevant. You assert that they 'fight' for neither side. Where does this have an effect on our debate?


How true. You would probably replace the reward with electric shocks (punishment) if it didn't comply

Well, arguably as I'm not the one calling people 'it' it's perfectly acceptable to surmise that the punishment would in fact be coming from you - After all, this thought didn't even cross my mind.

The ideology i promote rests on the basis that no reward nor punishment is necessary, that simply understanding your responsibilities you will perform your necessary duties.

Professor Moneybags
6th June 2004, 21:22
Again, you expertly avoided the point. You are a slave to your existence. You have made it perfectly clear that you would rather be a slave to yourself than to share that equally amongst your 'comrades', just as I have made it clear that I consider this state of mind to be a step behind in human evolution.

I don't consider your mode of thought as even human, let alone a step ahead in evolution.


Please, point to where I mentioned force.

What do you intend to do to those whom you consider a "step behind" ?


I've refuted the first part of that document, and will return to it when I get a chance. Hopefully this evening.

Don't bother.


Again though, I must point out that I consider those who do not yet understand their social responsibilities to be inferior humans requiring enlightenment.

Arrogant little turnip, aren't you ?

DaCuBaN
6th June 2004, 21:34
I don't consider your mode of thought as even human, let alone a step ahead in evolution.

Personal opinion, good good. Let's see some more of that rather than your standard reactionary pose


What do you intend to do to those whom you consider a "step behind" ?

If they after repeated attempts at educating them still cannot/will not participate then let them starve - in my opinion they'll soon come round to the idea of survival.

You've still avoided my question though. Care to address it? :P

Please, point to where I mentioned force

There is only one scenario where I will take to force, and it's much the same to your own: If someone tries to impose their will upon me, I will dissent.


Arrogant little turnip, aren't you ?

Mr pot! How dare you call the kettle black
Yes my ego is indeed as over inflated as your own.

Professor Moneybags
6th June 2004, 21:41
Personal opinion, good good. Let's see some more of that rather than your standard reactionary pose

Don't make me post the "missing link" article again. :rolleyes:


If they after repeated attempts at educating them still cannot/will not participate then let them starve - in my opinion they'll soon come round to the idea of survival.
You've still avoided my question though. Care to address it? :P

Not really, I'm more interested in what you are going to do with the property of those who are not interested in your borg cosciousness. Laissez faire is all good and well.


Mr pot! How dare you call the kettle black
Yes my ego is indeed as over inflated as your own.

Mine is earned, yours isn't.

DaCuBaN
6th June 2004, 22:03
I'm more interested in what you are going to do with the property of those who are not interested in your borg cosciousness

If they do not submit willingly, then they will end up being cut off from society, hence from the means of production, and thus the 'siege' mentality prevails.


Don't make me post the "missing link" article again

Missing link in evolution? or do you refer to some other stupid ebaumsworld picture


Mine is earned, yours isn't

I stand corrected... your ego is greater even than mine!

Professor Moneybags
7th June 2004, 14:17
If they do not submit willingly, then they will end up being cut off from society, hence from the means of production, and thus the 'siege' mentality prevails.

What if they own the means of production ? What then ? Are you going to steal it from them ?


Missing link in evolution? or do you refer to some other stupid ebaumsworld picture

I'm referring to the missing link between the rational faculty of a human being and the concrete-bound nature of a wild animal. You lot seem to be stuck somewhere between the two; eschewing collectivism (and it's political collorary, communism) by substituting ideas for people in an attempt to shield yourselves from reality (the one that won't give you a free lunch).


I stand corrected... your ego is greater even than mine!

I'm not the one declaring myself to be some sort of "superior being".

DaCuBaN
7th June 2004, 21:32
What if they own the means of production ? What then ? Are you going to steal it from them ?

I'd like to see one man run 100 hectares of farmland without any petrol, or any labourers to help. I'd like to see a mill grind without anything in it.

All you have to do is get in the way - the protests outside grangemouth refinery at the cost of petrol in the UK (when it soared up above the equivelant of US$6/gallon) are a perfect example. It was wonderful - the country literally ground to a halt.


I'm referring to the missing link between the rational faculty of a human being and the concrete-bound nature of a wild animal

Then post away! something with some substance to debate wouldn't be a bad thing ;)


You lot seem to be stuck somewhere between the two; eschewing collectivism (and it's political collorary, communism) by substituting ideas for people in an attempt to shield yourselves from reality (the one that won't give you a free lunch).

eloquently phrased, but if you would care to cite evidence of this? I would assert that it is because we are not shielded from reality that we are able to understand this most simple of concepts


I'm not the one declaring myself to be some sort of "superior being"

So now you don't think the 'dirty pinkos' are wrong? You don't think that you have all the answers?

That's a big turn around moneybags :D

I did not declare myself to be a 'superior being' in any way shape or form. My mind is just as limited as your own, and my body just as frail and weak. If you can cast your mind back far enough you may remember that my original assertion was that this 'evolution of the mind' comes in the form of a moment of epiphany. Even you could one day realise how ignorant you have been ;)

Perhaps evolution is a poor paradigm, my apologies for the confusion.

Professor Moneybags
7th June 2004, 21:49
What if they own the means of production ? What then ? Are you going to steal it from them ?

I'd like to see one man run 100 hectares of farmland without any petrol, or any labourers to help. I'd like to see a mill grind without anything in it.

That presupposes that "they" will all be on "your side". "They", however, have nothing to gain from you or your system, but much to lose.


All you have to do is get in the way - the protests outside grangemouth refinery at the cost of petrol in the UK (when it soared up above the equivelant of US$6/gallon) are a perfect example. It was wonderful - the country literally ground to a halt.

Did they sieze it, or claim it as their own, though ? No.

It wasn't a protest against oil companies, anyway, it was a protest against the government's ludicrous level of taxation.


eloquently phrased, but if you would care to cite evidence of this?

Erm....everything you say and do ?


So now you don't think the 'dirty pinkos' are wrong? You don't think that you have all the answers?

That's a big turn around moneybags :D

I never claimed to have all of the answers. This is a waste of time...

DaCuBaN
7th June 2004, 21:57
That presupposes that "they" will all be on "your side". "They", however, have nothing to gain from you or your system, but much to lose

I'll assume by 'they' you mean those who are in control of the means of production?


It wasn't a protest against oil companies, anyway, it was a protest against the government's ludicrous level of taxation

True, and they decided that as their own pressure on the government was failing, that they would instead put pressure on the oil companies, and thus force the hand of the government

It worked perfectly, at least in the short-term. My point was that all you have to do is place yourself in key positions - you don't need to control the means of production to oust the few who will defend their 'right' to private ownership.


Erm....everything you say and do ?


Could you be more vague? Cite example!


I never claimed to have all of the answers. This is a waste of time...

Again, I must proffer my apologies. You have never stated you are omnicognisant
or anything of the like, but neither have I. We merely state different viewpoints. You say I'm wrong, I say you're wrong. I must admit though, despite the decaying nature of this debate I'm sad to see you giving up so easily without concluding this.

Pawn Power
7th June 2004, 23:15
fuck compound intrest!

well heres the formula

A=Pe^rt
that is P times e to the power of (r times t)

P=inital money invested
r=annual intrest rate
t=number of years
and
A=final sum of ca$h

Professor Moneybags
8th June 2004, 06:50
Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2004, 11:15 PM
fuck compound intrest!

well heres the formula

A=Pe^rt
that is P times e to the power of (r times t)

P=inital money invested
r=annual intrest rate
t=number of years
and
A=final sum of ca$h
Phoney.

Pawn Power
8th June 2004, 12:20
Originally posted by Professor Moneybags+Jun 8 2004, 06:50 AM--> (Professor Moneybags @ Jun 8 2004, 06:50 AM)
[email protected] 7 2004, 11:15 PM
fuck compound intrest!

well heres the formula

A=Pe^rt
that is P times e to the power of (r times t)

P=inital money invested
r=annual intrest rate
t=number of years
and
A=final sum of ca$h
Phoney.[/b]
haha :lol: yea it does sound pretty phoney
well i learned it in calculous class :P, its just math even if its worthless math

Professor Moneybags
8th June 2004, 16:40
Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2004, 09:57 PM

That presupposes that "they" will all be on "your side". "They", however, have nothing to gain from you or your system, but much to lose

I'll assume by 'they' you mean those who are in control of the means of production?
What you seem to be dancing around, is that at the end of the day, you're still arguing the same "siezure of the MOP" tactics everyone else here is, regardless of who owns them. Why can't you create your own MOP ?

DaCuBaN
8th June 2004, 19:39
What you seem to be dancing around, is that at the end of the day, you're still arguing the same "siezure of the MOP" tactics everyone else here is, regardless of who owns them. Why can't you create your own MOP ?


When (if - if you like) the revolution happens, the means of production are going to be there, but not all will be of use in a socialist society. Things like soft-toys and the like are hardly a necessity of life, and although I'm not trying to advocate their removal from society they are something that can be delayed. Hence a soft toys manufacturer, although he will have no workers left would probably not have his property 'seized' - or at least not immediately.

Similarly there are plenty of things not provided for under our current system - many go without nourishment and hence efforts would be redirected to build up this end of the system

Again moneybags you're showing your gender by taking a linear attitude to the debate: The two are not mutually exclusive. One can seize the current MOP and create their own.

Professor Moneybags
8th June 2004, 20:00
Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2004, 07:39 PM
Again moneybags you're showing your gender by taking a linear attitude to the debate: The two are not mutually exclusive. One can seize the current MOP and create their own.
If there is any truth in what you say, then why bother siezing it ? Why not just make your own ?

DaCuBaN
8th June 2004, 20:07
And do what with the factories that will lie dormant? it's a huge waste of resource to go abandon that which has been so kindly created for us. It would also cause mass poverty if we did. It's not as if recreating the infrastructure is going to happen overnight.

My point is that we should make our own, but not just our own.

Professor Moneybags
8th June 2004, 20:11
And do what with the factories that will lie dormant? it's a huge waste of resource to go abandon that which has been so kindly created for us.

I don't think they were created with altruism in mind. Plus, I don't think the owners will be willing to abandon their property (possibly their life's work).

DaCuBaN
8th June 2004, 20:14
No, there were no altruistic goals when they set out on their venture. I think it wonderful though that the exploiter will eventually be exploited by the exploitee :lol:

Frederick_Engles
10th June 2004, 20:26
Surely percentage of money invested in compound interest that you get back each year equals approximate inflation?