Religion

[komsomol]

I am aetheist, I am wondering how many of you are too, i think it would be quite a proportion of you.

Also, what do you think about the "percecution" of religious people in China?

[TheDerminator]

I am a devout atheist, as you may have noticed. Religious persecution anywhere is an abomination, and not a part of socialist democratic principles. At the same time religion is the opiate of the people, and is part and parcel of the genocide of wanton neglect, which kills billions of people prematurely in the underdeveloped world.
Belief in God is the introverted sublimation of the human spirituality onto a worthless idol. Human spirituality ought to have its essence community responsibility. We look out rather than in to establish human beauty, and human depth of feeling.

May the Force be with U!

derminated

[I Will Deny You]

I'm an atheist. However, I am also involved in organized religion since I'm a humanist Jew. (Don't worry, humanist Jews have never committed mass murder.) I believe that evangelism is wrong, but I don't think that religion alone can be blamed for the crusades. Lots of the people who initiated the genocides that we blame on religion were fucked up people who would have killed as many people as they could have, religion or not. Fundamentalism doesn't only belong to religion.

So to summarize, evangelism and religious persecution = bad, true belief that can be justified and does more good than harm = good.

[RedRevolutionary1234]

I am a Taoist by nature, but i have my own religious philosophy

[Bakunjin]

I am an atheist, too...And even more I hate those catholic bishops and priests because of their hypocrisy... hey all drive good cars, take peoples money and telling them fairytales... Uf...They are the reachest scum... Always helping rightists...Only in Latin America catholics used to help revolutionaries...But that archbishop in Colombia, that was killed yesterday, was rightist...

[jimr]

i think marx held teh right view that religeon is teh opium of the people, I would not go so far as to agree with the more leninist/stalinist view that religeon should be banned.

I am an athiest but i understand some peoples need for religeon. Religeon is tolerable and should not be condemned. Simply because religeon has a habit of thriving while under persectution.

I am also intrested as to what a humanist jew is.
thanks

[Fires of History]

There might be a 'god,' there might not be. How can we know? There is no basis for human knowledge...

All I know for myself is that the monotheistic 'gods' presented to us are not real because they couldn't possibly live up to the standards and promises that have been made about them. At least, they haven't so far.

"I cannot believe in a God who wants to be praised all the time." -Friedrich Nietzsche

He said it best, as he always does...

Peace,
Trance

[guerrillaradio]

Too right about Nietzsche, Fires.

I think that organised religion is so hypocritical. Religion is just spoonfeeding people a view of life. Some people aren't intelligent enough to decide things for themselves, so they have to be told them by some corrupt priest hiding behind a dumb fucking cross.

I also believe that the question of whether there is a god is irrelevant as we have no way of determining either way. There are much more important things to concern yourselves with in life.

[Nickademus]

as a non-atheist i feel i have to say something.

as has happened alomst every single time religion has been brought up on this board. religion does NOT equal Christianity. There are numerous different religions in this world and many of them are NOT akin to Christianity. Also, we have to differentiate Christianity from the church because that which is preached in the church is not the same as that which jesus taught. (NO i'm not a Christian).

I will deny you, how can i justify my true belief to you?

Guerillaradio---i don't appreciate the implication that i'm not intelligent enough to think for myself. I am quite capable of thinking for myself and my religion does not prohibit me from doing so.

And for many life can not make sense without a higher power.

Anyway, that's my point of view. feel free to continue to discuss this with me

[Reuben]

Yeah I am an atheist too.

[El Che]

I am an agnostic.

[Moskitto]

Yeah the church sucks. It's the same church that told people about god being the only one who could forgive sins at the same time as selling confessions. Or telling everyone that people were equal in the eyes of god yet refused to have women priests. Or the same church that killed millions in South America spreading a message of peace. Or the church which criticised flambouyant dress and hairstyles yet covered it's buildings in adornments.

Taoism and Agnostism are good religions.

[I Will Deny You]

Nickademus, as far as I'm concerned you've already justified your belief by arguing passionately and intelligently and (at least as far as I know) not making money off of your religion or using it to justify wrongdoing.

[Nateddi]

I am blood Jewish, however I do not like organized religion. I'm agnostic if you wish to call me that.

(Edited by Nateddi at 2:17 am on Mar. 19, 2002)

[Sasafrás]

I don't know what the hell I am.. When I was growing up, my family & I attended various (Christian) churches. Then, when we moved to Memphis, TN in 1990, we began going to an African Methodist Episcopal Zion church. About 3 or so years ago, my mother got into a whole Sabbath belief and then we both began to celebrate Passover, Yom Kippur, etc. but we still believed in Christ (as the Saviour) so now, I consider myself to be Judeo-Christian when I am questioned. My father who occasionally attends a Black Baptist church doesn't really approve. In reality, however, I am a bit unsure of my belief in a Higher Power, so I'm kind of agnostic myself. I tend to lean more to the mono-or-maybe-even-poly-theistic side though, but I'm not completely sure and I think I never will be. It's too bad that in the South, I can't say that to people without feeling at risk of being cursed at or something.

I, however, respect everyone's beliefs, probably even more than my own.. If I ever decided to convert to something else entirely, it would most likely be La Regla de Ocha (La Regla Lucumí) or Bahá'í. Who knows..?

[RedCeltic]

Personally, I don't belong to any "Organized" Religion...

That said, I'm a Wiccan, (as Nickadermus who posted earlier is) We are not "organized" in any sense of the word, do not practice a religion that follows a preset, written dogma, we have no concept of good/evil ... God/Satan.... there is no 'Judgment' or "Sin” attempt to "Pacify" or be an "Opium of the People" nor do we attempt to be considered as a "Major" religion, nor "The True " religion.

It's one of the old religions of pre-Christian of Western Europe, and is kin to "Native American" or "First Nations" religious beliefs...It is not a religion that distributes oppression, yet rather a religion that has withstood oppression... surviving through the oppressive "Burning Times" when Witch-Hunters roamed Europe, leaving some villages, like in Germany, with no women left alive..

We have reclaimed our Celtic name "Wicca" or "Wise ones" as well as our English version of it "Witchcraft" Which was first demonized by King James who had the word "person who Poisons" in the Bible altered as "Witch"

Basically, Wiccans make good environmentalists, because we are an earth based religion....and as we know... environmentalists make good Socialists... (when they realize what the cause truly is)


(Edited by RedCeltic at 11:55 pm on Mar. 18, 2002)

[Angie]

I am Pagan.

My "religious" path (not really religious at all in the true sense, I doubt) revolves around my belief that nature is all-important, that each and every natural object has it's own part to play in the balance of the planet, and that as a whole, we can gain great strength from close relation to it. Similarly, individual entities of nature have the ability to promote or demote reactions in people, thus I honour them for being stronger and more influential than myself.

I honour and deeply respect all that is both positive and negative about nature - the sun shower right through the entire spectrum to the F-5 Tornado or the mountain exploding into a lava stream. Equally and completely.

Some would call that Shamanism. It certainly is, with some other things mixed in - there are a number of Buddhist beliefs I honourably uphold. Witchcraft, too, is in there - though my beliefs aren't as 'ceremonial' as a Wiccan's - my collection of tools includes a chalice and that's about it.

:)

[RedCeltic]

Merry Meet Angie,

It's good to see a Pagan/Shaman here :)

[STALINSOLDIERS]

im not into religions but if i was to choose it would either be islam or buddasm.....why i choose islam well in arabia its almost like communism where people dont pay taxes but they do give money to the church and with that money they give it to the needy, and they are obediant to thier beliefs they follow there rules all the way......and for buddasm its cause its peacefull they dont harm nothing not even roaches and they are smart like they can stay out of the snow with barley no cloth for hours with out dying so thay means they can controll there body unlike capitalist people that wants to ruin everything by spreading christianity and corperation.

[Derar]

I'm a muslim ...... i like my religion .... though i dont follow it at all .......

i think its a good religion becoz it teaches u everything the human needs in this life , from the way to eat , to sleeping , to communicating with other ppl , marriage , children , parents , working , politics ..... just everything.

Its also a religion that teaches u to respects eveything in this universe ....... like nature ( its a big sin if u cut a tree without a good reason ) , other religions , ur parents , other ppl , and just about everything .

For every person there is like a personal scale .... of good deeds and bad ones ..... if u do a bad one then a one more bad deed is added to ur scale , if u do something good then 100 good deeds r added to ur scale .
And everyone is gonna get what he deserves at the end , when jedgement's day comes ....... god will show every person what he did during his life , and the bads r going to hell , the goods r going to heaven ........ and who did bad things r gonna stay in hell till they got punished for what they did and then go to heaven , depend on how much u did good things and bad things ....... everyone except Martyrs and prophets .
A Martyr is the person who died when he was defending his home , family , religion or country .
Also a peron that died on his way to Achieve knowledge , or on his way to do a good deed , or to do something to please god .
Also the ppl who die burned or drowned r considered martyrs .
Islam also considers achieving knowledge a must , Prophet mohammed (pbuh) said once ( Spread the knowledge till china ) .....

Sorry if that was long ..... but if i wanna talk about islam ....... it's gonna take me like 1000 pages just to explain the basic things .

[samaniego]

A building or a man in a suit is not religion, it is a distortion of what ever good, God (which ever you do or don't believe in) intended. Religion like Socialism and Communism has never lived up to it's true ideal and it can't, but to assume there is no God because religion failed is a-bit harsh. God cannot be truly proved or disproved. Religion is truly the opium of the poor. What hope would they have if not for that of heaven, for their suffering on earth. Remember if any of us ever truly makes a move to change the world. Those who you fight for, place their faith in a God, not just in you.

(Edited by samaniego at 6:15 am on Mar. 20, 2002)

[Fires of History]

Quote: from Nickademus on 3:39 pm on Mar. 18, 2002
as a non-atheist i feel i have to say something.

as has happened alomst every single time religion has been brought up on this board. religion does NOT equal Christianity. There are numerous different religions in this world and many of them are NOT akin to Christianity. Also, we have to differentiate Christianity from the church because that which is preached in the church is not the same as that which jesus taught. (NO i'm not a Christian).

I will deny you, how can i justify my true belief to you?


Don't worry, you couldn't possibly justify or prove your belief so save yourself the trouble.

You said that religion doesn't equal Christianity. I agree.

However, this was started as a question about Atheism, which is opposed to Theism, of which Christianity is certainly a part, as are many other monotheistic and polytheistic religions.

In fact, can you think of a religion that isn't Theistic in some way?

Keeping in mind of course that many 'faiths' are really just philosophies, so don't say Taoism and such...

Power To The People,
Trance

[peaccenicked]

http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/top...um=13&topic=121 (http://www.che-lives.com/cgi/community/topic.pl?forum=13&topic=121)
more here.

[Zippy]

I beleive in a creator, i do not beleive in an all powerfull all loving God.

As far as religion goes in general, if that is what it takes to get people through the day then i am all for it. But when religion gets opressive, as it normally does, i do not respect it then.

Zippy.

[Supermodel]

I'm very impressed with the diversity of backgrounds here.

I believe in God and Jesus and of course Budda and Mohammed, and I'm a member of the Lutheran Church but I don't go.

I have a problem with organized religions, I think they are a major distraction from true spirituality. But the one thing they do provide is a good conduit to do charity work and get involved. So I go along with churches that are involved in specific projects.

I believe in God, but not because anyone told me so, in fact at one time in the past I would have called myself an aetheist. I came back to believing in God because I have seen the miracle of life being created and taken away. I refuse to believe that we're here for seventy years then gone.

[SA160]

The problems with religion and politics come from:

1. an XVIII century perspective when organized religions were seen as THE SOURCE of obscurantism at the best and superstitions at the worst. Any self respecting intello then (and to some extent now) couldn't admit any part in such beliefs.

2. Marx identified religions as one of the main alienations due to an extensive historical and sociological study of the effects of organized religions in society. Unfortunayely, he couldn't at the time consider religion as a psychological need in relation to the unexplainable phenomenon of death. This is why I think religious ideas will never be uprooted unless one could find the meaning and explanation of what happens after death.

On the other hand, one can look Socratically at religion as a "pharmakon", i.e. either a drug for a cure or a poison depending on its usage. Think of all the venoms (snake and other wise) use medically with positive effects. Relion is identical; it's in its articulation that the problem resides.

I just think that a war on religion gains nothing for socialists. It makes only excuses for belligerent interests to use this unfortunate case agaist us.

[Moskitto]

Jainism does not believe in god. Instead it believes in the power of human spirit which is god, It also has similar ideas on afterlife that Hinduism has but withot god.

[I Will Deny You]

Some Buddhists are atheists. I'm an atheist, but since I'm a humanist I'm still very religious. (And my religion is much, much more than a simple philosophy.)

[Fires of History]

Quote: from Supermodel on 9:38 pm on Mar. 20, 2002
I came back to believing in God because I have seen the miracle of life being created and taken away. I refuse to believe that we're here for seventy years then gone.

The idea that life is a miracle is just that: an idea. I have seen quite a bit of birth, but quite a bit more death, and that is why there I believe there is no 'god.' At least, not a loving, in control 'god.'

If there is a 'god,' it is EITHER loving OR in control. It couldn't be both and not contradict itself based on current, and historical, circumstances.

Also, why does there have to be a 'god' for there to be more to it than this? I don't believe in 'god,' but I also know that regardless of that it will be much, much more than '70 years and out.'

Peace,
Trance

[Derar]

Birth is a miracle , and also death is a miracle ......
ppl must die , so therefore there will be balance on this earth .
When a person dies , his body dies ...... but the soul never dies .

So u think when u die u r just gonna turn to sand or dissapear ?
And the one who did bad is gonna get away with it , and the good ppl r not gonna get anything in return ??
i dont think so , everyone will get what he deserves .

[alphaq]

I don't believe in religion, i don't believe in God, i don't believe in the supernatural, i don't believe in "bad" people being punished or "good" people being rewarded (just what constitutes "bad" or "good" anyway? Surely those words mean different things for different people) I think all of the above is simply a crutch for those who don't have the will power or conviction to live their life on their own. Why do I not believe in any of the above? I've had no reason to. I have yet to witness any phenomenon that cannot be explained in a rational manner, and following Occam's razor, Ive had no reason to attribute actions to exterior, mysterious forces. The world is far too complex for us to explain it all away in one fell swoop (God). That being said, I do not propone the banning of religion because people are entitled to hold whichever beliefs they please to, however delusional and counterproductive these beliefs may be.

[Fires of History]

Quote: from Derar on 11:20 am on Mar. 21, 2002
so therefore there will be balance on this earth

You think our current rate of OVERpopulation is a balance?

[Fires of History]

Quote: from Derar on 11:20 am on Mar. 21, 2002

And the one who did bad is gonna get away with it , and the good ppl r not gonna get anything in return ??
i dont think so , everyone will get what he deserves .


Why would that bother you so much? Who cares?

Your ideas of 'good' and 'bad' are just that: IDEAS!

[RedCeltic]

Birth is a miracle, and also death is a miracle ......
ppl must die , so therefore there will be balance on this earth .
When a person dies , his body dies ...... but the soul never dies .

In Wicca, as many 'Pagan' or 'earth based' religions... life does not exist as a linear time... your life... from birth to death... is a circular frame of time.

You don't have to go very far to see this concept manifest in the world. Everything that lives... dies, and new life springs out of it... basically... everything is food for something else.

The sun, and the moon both 'die' but come back again... The moon ( considered the manifestation of the Goddess) goes through phases, The Waxing phases (Virgin) the full moon (Mother) the Wayning phases (crone) and the new moon (Death/rebirth)

The sun, also 'dies'... however, it's more dramatic in artic regions that have six months of sunlight and six months of darkness.... and 'Pagan','Shaman' or 'Aboriginal' religions of the artic region naturally reflect this, and their harsh life...

Can a God truly be a 'all loving'? The concept is unnatural... everything in the world we live in has a light and a dark side to it....

For example: Water... the giver of life... you can't live without it... in fact, your mostly made up of it... and as every religion/mythology in the world shows... water is both a creator and a destroyer...Why does the Judeo-Christian God use a flood to destroy his creation? Because he is "renewing" the world... This is the same in every culture... this 'renewal' of life... I haven't read mythology from every culture... but have heard that mostly every one has a flood story in it... it's a death/rebirth thing...

So... your body.... when you die... doesn't go away... it doesn't just vanish into thin air... it ... well... is consumed, and therefore propitiates life.

Your soul... do you have one? Well... I really can't convince you of that, but if you've done astral projection (out of body experience) as I have... you will realize, your body is not you... it's what you are in while in the mundane world.

So, if your body dies, but does not simply vanish... but is consumed... and those molecules then are incorporated into another life form... why would you think that your soul would just..... vanish?

For me... to believe that when a person dies they then go to Heaven or hell or Nirvana or whatever... would mean a beginning and an end... linear time... which is a man made concept... not actually relative to the world.

Finally, since I believe in all this above, and have actually gone through past life regression... through.. de ja vue... and meditations... reincarnation just seems as natural to me... as I know the sun will rise again tomorrow.

Well, not every Wiccan, or Pagan agrees on the same concept of what happens when you die... but... I personally think we all come from the same core being... who... is manifest in different forms... (Hence, polytheism) we are put through a series of 'tests' or... have obstacles we must overcome... things we must learn... before we return.

"We all come from the Goddess and to her we shall return....like a drop of rain, returning to the ocean" as the popular Wiccan song goes...





(Edited by RedCeltic at 11:51 pm on Mar. 21, 2002)

[Fires of History]

Quote: from RedCeltic on 5:38 am on Mar. 22, 2002
In Wicca, as many 'Pagan' or 'earth based' religions... life does not exist as a linear time... your life... from birth to death... is a circular frame of time.



Right on Red Celtic,

Linear thinking died with E=mc2. I think in the future quantum theory will have more to say about religion that any cleric.

People see time too simplistically.

Start/Birth <----------------> Death/End

When really, nothing is linear.

Power To Quantum Understanding! And The People Too!
Trance

P.S. Red Celtic, I severely appreciate the Pagan/Wiccan/Earth-Based view of life. Have to finally read more about that, thanks :-)

[Angie]

basically... everything is food for something else.
I told my family that when I die, I want to be planted under a tree, so that it can grow in that exact manner. They said that the toxins in my body would risk poisoning a local water supply. I told them to make sure my body was planted somewhere away from a local water supply, then to plant a massive forest around my tree, so that nothing got too near. Not to mention the fact that it's a perfectly decent thing to replant a forest, so it's two birds with one stone. :biggrin:

The most horrific way I could think of being buried is in a coffin, it's extremely unnatural to me.

[Zippy]

Quote: from Angie on 11:31 am on Mar. 22, 2002
They said that the toxins in my body would risk poisoning a local water supply.
I didnt realise humans were made of arsenic. :)

Zippy.

[Angie]

Would be grand if that were the only thing that was damaging. :)

[Zippy]

Why dont you get cremated and have your ashes spread in a forest ? Thats a much wiser idea.

Me - i want putting in a crypt with my CD collection. ;)

Zippy.

[IzmSchism]

I believe in the underlying motif of almost all religions, at least the major 7 in the world, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Daoism, Confucianism and Hinduism.

all I have to say is live by your own word, lead by your own word, and If I am Guilty I Will Pay,_B.M. Jah Bless!