simple question

[Zmal]

I believe whole-heartedly that capitalism in its current form is self-destructive and will lead to the end of our society. I believe that corperations have WAY too much control and that the rich essentialy own the poor by controling the flow of information to the masses and thus negating the whole idea behind one person one vote. I believe that wealth needs to be pretty evenly distributed but through taxes, in other words taxing the rich far more than the poor and perhaps even GIVING money to the very poor so as to allow them to move toward the middle class. But while doing this still making it so those that would be rich still make more money and can afford more luxuries but everyone has what they need to live decently. I do NOT believe in political parties in any form and I believe that only citizens (not corperations etc) may give money to a political candidate and that the amount needs to be limited so that anyone can contribute. I believe in some very very limited limits on freedom of speach (such as not allowing public displays of religion). I believe in a healthy mix of public and private ownership and in some cases (specificly health care) dual private and public systems. And I believe the united states' imperialist forign policy is one of the larger threats to global security. But Im rambling and Im sure yall get the general idea. My question is this: what the fuck am I? I figure its somewhere between socialist and a capitalist but is there some real title for it? This is mostly out of curriosity...

[DaCuBaN]

They'll probably brand you a reformist or bourgious sympathiser

You are a socialist of sorts by the sound of it.

Want to know where you stand? (http://www.politicalcompass.org)

[Zmal]

took that test a while ago and was somewhere around -7, -7

[Read_Trotsky]

DaCuban was right (at first), you're a reformist (and utopian).
here's why:
you assume the state is neutral. Sorry, but the government does not actually work for us. So even if we all want the the government to tax the capitalists so that they aren't making much more than workers, it wont happen because the government runs in the interests of the ruling class, not the "people".

This society is divided into classes. There is, mainly, an exploiting class and an exploited class. There can be no reconciliation between the two. A socialist realizes that the only way that we can have true justice and equality is to get rid of the exploiting class.

Read: State and Revolution by V.I. Lenin

[Zmal]

My thoughts are that through heavy taxing you can swell the middle class to the point where most, if not all, elected officials come from it. If this were the case then the govornment WOULD serve the masses. As it is now most elected officials come from the upper class and thus have the interests of the upper class in mind. Something that needs to stop. And dont get me wrong here, I dont think that we can just pass some laws and everything will be all beter. We need to burn the constitution and start all over again.


as for state and revolution I plan to read it very soon.

[Read_Trotsky]

You're missing the point. without a social revolution the government WILL represent the ruling class. A revolution is absolutely necessary if you want to change that. You'll probably understand it better after you read the book. chapters 1,3, and 5 are the best ;)

[Read_Trotsky]

and that "where you stand" quiz thing doesnt't work for Marxists. How is an anti-capitalist supposed to agree/disagree with statements like: "Governments should penalise businesses that mislead the public" when we know that the capitalist government works for the fucking corporations? Marxists are OFF the left-right spectrum.

[DaCuBaN]

I will agree the political compass is flawed: when you start trying to classify people this will happen

Almost ironic given the nature of the thread really ;)

However it doesn't just look at the traditional left/right argument. They at least made an effort to divide between economic and political left/right, and assign you a number, rather than giving you a 'class grouping' as traditional ideology entails.

[Zmal]

ya I realize its kinda idiotic to make a thread so that I can know what label to attach to myself....but, as I said, Im currious.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

I believe that corperations have WAY too much control and that the rich essentialy own the poor by controling the flow of information to the masses and thus negating the whole idea behind one person one vote.

As one who holds this opinion, you should know that allowing the ruling class to continue to own the capital will never fix the problem you explained in the excerpt above. Just because lots of money is distributed among the poor and disenfranchised, doesn't mean that the wealthy will cease to own its corporations. You did say that they may continue to own the means of production, didn't you? If they continue to do so, they will continue to control the labor of their many wage-slaves and will continue to, as you said, control the flow of information.

[synthesis]

Hello, Zman. You sound like you're pretty much on the same wavelength as most of the rest of the members on this board. What kinds of literature have you read?

It sounds as though your instinct leads you towards leftism, although you are inexperienced with theory. Everyone here started out like that. I would suggest exposure to a wide range of socialist ideas. Previous members have suggested Lenin. Here's some other stuff to check out.


Friedrich Engels's "Principles of Communism" (very easy to read)
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works...11/prin-com.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm)

Rosa Luxembourg's "Reform or Revolution?", and "Leninism or Marxism?"
http://www.marxists.org/archive/luxemburg/...ution/index.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/luxemburg/1900/reform-revolution/index.htm)
http://www.marxists.org/archive/luxemburg/...s-rsd/index.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/luxemburg/1904/questions-rsd/index.htm)

For "Reform or Revolution," I'd recommend you read the second and third chapters. They're very informative.

Bakunin's "Marxism, Freedom, and the State" and "God and the State"
http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/...state/index.htm (http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/bakunin/works/godstate/index.htm)


I think that's a pretty good reading list for you, combined with the earlier recommendation of Lenin's works. You have the basics of Communism, the basis of Marxist vanguardism (Lenin), Marxist anti-vanguardism (Luxembourg), and Anarchism (stateless socialism, the term given to it by Bakunin). These were the three major strains of revolutionary socialism in the past century.

Have fun.

[Zmal]

I have read exactly no literature. My knowledge of ecconomics is basicly just stuff I've picked up from random little arguments on other message boards. Im pretty much totaly ignorant to all that is socialism. I really only got into anything political after the 2000 election and really got interested after 9/11 (I'm 15 now so I was a little young anyway) I have, however, decided to start reading up on socialism and ecconomics in general this summer.
Another question: I've always been under the impression that Das Kapital is kind of the bible of communism, am I horribly mistaken and is it worth reading (I was planning on trying, might be a bit over my head though)

RedZepplin: The way I see it the information that people need is out there, what the lower class lacks is the education for them to know that they are being lied to. If they are taken care of and provided with what they need so as to allow them to be educated and educate themselves it seems that they would be capable of seeing through the bullshit and eventualy get rid of it entirely as the gap between upper and lower class shrank. Most of what I have are nothing more than half formed ideas so bear with me here.

edit: and thanks for all the help and friendly replies.

[DaCuBaN]

I wouldn't worry... considering the way many on this board react at the slightest showing of being 'uneducated' in the ways of the Holy Communist Scriptures (that I do believe are a must read nonetheless) you seem to be doing alright

Normally, a small introduction thread like this where you make a few ambigious statements would have merited an attack from the 'hard-liners'

No such attempt has begun ... yet ;)

Oh, and happy reading. :cool:

[Read_Trotsky]

Yeah, Principles of Communism is a good starting point. Engels is TIGHT!!! Also, a good intro to marxist politics is America's Road to Socialism (I HIGHLY recommend that one) and A Fight for Socialism by Max Shactman.
I'm sorry for acting like a jerk. I forgot to switch from "battle mode". Feel free to email me If you wanna talk more.

[DaCuBaN]

I forgot to switch from "battle mode".

I think 'Standby Alert' would be suitable in this scenario - remember this is still the OI :D

[synthesis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2004, 07:35 PM
I wouldn't worry... considering the way many on this board react at the slightest showing of being 'uneducated' in the ways of the Holy Communist Scriptures (that I do believe are a must read nonetheless) you seem to be doing alright

Normally, a small introduction thread like this where you make a few ambigious statements would have merited an attack from the 'hard-liners'.
I disagree. I think the 'elder' members here are remarkably patient as a whole - with people who show a willingness to learn.

We want people to be educated about these matters. I think a lot of us just tend to get irritated when people who don't just know what they're talking about are convinced that they do.

[Zmal]

Thanks a lot guys, I definitly have some reading to do.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

RedZepplin: The way I see it the information that people need is out there, what the lower class lacks is the education for them to know that they are being lied to. If they are taken care of and provided with what they need so as to allow them to be educated and educate themselves it seems that they would be capable of seeing through the bullshit and eventualy get rid of it entirely as the gap between upper and lower class shrank. Most of what I have are nothing more than half formed ideas so bear with me here.

The people will never be able to attain such rights to know the truth as long as they're under the oppression of the ruling class. What is needed is a revolution. They can get what they want and what they're entitled to, so long as they have the knowledge necessary, and that's what class consciousness is. For that to be brought to everyone, a violent revolution against the bourgeoisie is necessary. The bourgeoisie holds the power in society by having control of the capital. Capital is produced by all members of society, and that's why no elitist oligarchy such as the capitalist ruling class is entitled to it. That power is dependant of the exploitation of the working class. They will never allow the working class to free itself with the truth. That is why the vanguard must acquire power through violent revolution in order to bring class consciousness to the proletariat.

If the ruling class is in charge of the education system why would a progressive mindset ever be allowed to flourish?

And just because the "middle class" may have a high standard of living, that doesn’t mean that they aren't living within the shackles of wage slavery.

You should start with The Communist Manifesto (http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/marx/classics/manifesto.html). If you have any questions on terms, events, or figures that come up in any leftist literature or debates, just look in the Ecyclopedia of Marxism (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/frame.htm)

[Zmal]

Oh I definitly believe that a revolution is needed to change things (thats what I ment by burning the constitution). Be it violent or non-violent I dont have enough knowledge on the subject to say. It seems that a non-violent social revolution would be a better option but that may be some bias I picked up somewhere talking as opposed to logic. But the way I see it were now in a downward spiral that we can only escape by tearing down everything and starting over fresh and doing it right. We cause too much damage to the outside world and too many of our people are hung out to dry by the govornment for things to be considered anywhere near ok.

And I'll add the communist manifesto to my rapidly growing list.

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2004, 11:47 PM
DaCuban was right (at first), you're a reformist (and utopian).
here's why:
you assume the state is neutral. Sorry, but the government does not actually work for us. So even if we all want the the government to tax the capitalists so that they aren't making much more than workers, it wont happen because the government runs in the interests of the ruling class, not the "people".
There is a serious error in your claim that the state is "biased". Unlike the idiot communists of the pre-soviet era (who wanted to destroy capitalism completely), modern governments have found capitalism to be a useful "cash cow" to be milked in order to fund it's statist schemes (hence the large number of mixed economies nowadays). Occasionally, these governments will screw up and over-tax the rich, who will then take their business elsewhere and the cow will no longer be available for milking. The problem here lies with the fact that in order to fund this statism, they need to extract more and more taxes, further destroying capitalism and further increasing the chances of the cow moving elsewhere; they are only delaying the inevitable. When there is no capitalist cow left to milk, then the government and it's socialist schemes will be screwed.

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2004, 11:13 PM
I believe whole-heartedly that capitalism in its current form is self-destructive and will lead to the end of our society. I believe that corperations have WAY too much control and that the rich essentialy own the poor by controling the flow of information to the masses and thus negating the whole idea behind one person one vote. I believe that wealth needs to be pretty evenly distributed but through taxes, in other words taxing the rich far more than the poor and perhaps even GIVING money to the very poor so as to allow them to move toward the middle class. But while doing this still making it so those that would be rich still make more money and can afford more luxuries but everyone has what they need to live decently. I do NOT believe in political parties in any form and I believe that only citizens (not corperations etc) may give money to a political candidate and that the amount needs to be limited so that anyone can contribute. I believe in some very very limited limits on freedom of speach (such as not allowing public displays of religion). I believe in a healthy mix of public and private ownership and in some cases (specificly health care) dual private and public systems. And I believe the united states' imperialist forign policy is one of the larger threats to global security. But Im rambling and Im sure yall get the general idea. My question is this: what the fuck am I? I figure its somewhere between socialist and a capitalist but is there some real title for it? This is mostly out of curriosity...
Silly question, but how did you come to these conclusions ?

[redstar2000]

Another question: I've always been under the impression that Das Kapital is kind of the bible of communism, am I horribly mistaken and is it worth reading?

To be honest, it's (1) a dense and difficult text as well as being very long; and (2) I would say that it's really only useful for those who intend to become self-trained Marxist economists.

Marx's basic ideas about capitalism and how it works are available in two short and easy-to-read pamphlets: Wage Labor and Capital and Value, Price and Profit.

Oh, and communists don't have "bibles"...that's a bourgeois fabrication. All of the famous revolutionaries that you've ever heard of were just as human as you and I...and just as prone to making mistakes.


Normally, a small introduction thread like this where you make a few ambiguous statements would have merited an attack from the 'hard-liners'.

What a strange and unjustified thing to say!

I'm certainly a "hard-liner" and I do attack bad ideas (and sometimes the people who advocate them).

But it's the people who ought to know better that "catch hell" from me...not the newbies.

I don't expect anyone to walk into this stuff cold and "know what to say and how to say it" and I don't think anyone with any real experience on the left would expect something like that.

What elicits the "sharpness" in my posts are people who've been around for a while and still mindlessly repeat the senile clichés of bourgeois ideology as if they were "the latest and most profound wisdom".

In my opinion, there ain't much excuse for that!

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[Capitalist Imperial]

What are you? Close enough to a cutie pie for me to lump you in with them.

[Subversive Pessimist]

You're a leftist. That is for sure. You seem to me like a communist. My recomendation would be to ask questons frequently on the forum, while reading the answers and other posts. Best way to learn. I wouldn't recommend reading Marx. Try reading The State And The Revolution. Easy and at the same time brilliant. Try to keep an open mind. Best of luck.

[Zmal]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 03:32 PM

Another question: I've always been under the impression that Das Kapital is kind of the bible of communism, am I horribly mistaken and is it worth reading?

To be honest, it's (1) a dense and difficult text as well as being very long; and (2) I would say that it's really only useful for those who intend to become self-trained Marxist economists.

Marx's basic ideas about capitalism and how it works are available in two short and easy-to-read pamphlets: Wage Labor and Capital and Value, Price and Profit.

Oh, and communists don't have "bibles"...that's a bourgeois fabrication. All of the famous revolutionaries that you've ever heard of were just as human as you and I...and just as prone to making mistakes. [/b]
Ok, maybe I'll put it off for a few years till I'm really ready for it. And what I mean by "bible" is sorta of an all encompasing general text on the basis of communism.