Porn

[Raisa]

Ive been hearing alot of folks talk about pornography lately. ( :blink: damn!)

So many people seem okay with porn... at least on an apathetic level.
After the revolution will that be an accepted job for society? Why?
Will things like stripper or porn actor be considered a valid contribution??

If not, when would this be done? Do you think it should be legal? For who...kids adults what?

Porn After the Revolution.

[STI]

Well, the way I see it, porn, depicting one or more consenting adults, is not only "acceptable", but, to put it bluntly, "awexome". I see "pornstar" (if that'll be the term for it) will not only be an "acceptable" job after the revolution, but an "awexome" one at that.


If not, then I guess I'll just have to find myself a different revolution to be part of.

Oh, and it should be basically available to everybody (it is now)

[Raisa]

Why do you think it is awesome for our post-revolutionary society?

[STI]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2004, 06:09 AM
Why do you think it is awesome for our post-revolutionary society?
Well, aside from my obligatory "horniness", porn is a great way for people to explore their own sexualities and discover what it is they find appealing. It can also serve as a tool for enhancing the sexual experience.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I don't expect porn to be an occupation, more of a hobby.
I think for the most part, that stories and drawings will overtake photos as erotica, as they are easier to produce and can involve a wider variety of scenarios.


Do you think it should be legal? For who...kids adults what?

It should be legal for everyone

[Bolshevist]

As of now, porn is really bad. Just look at qmov.com and tell me if you think any of the movies there are acceptable. I think they are not. But if there was porn to made that actually illustrated what sex was, not just "fucking machines" were men are just pumping and woman are lying on their backs recieving but actually tries to illustrate what it was, I'd think it was ok (well, not 100% but you get what I'm saying). I've never seen any porn that tries to do this, and that's why I'm against it (also for the other obvious reasons).

[redstar2000]

A "trivial" question that probably belongs in Chit-Chat but...what the hell.

The drive to improve "virtual reality" technology can be expected to continue as capitalism ages (especially given the fact that reality itself will get grimmer).

So what happens to "porn" when you can have a sexual experience that is indistinguishable from "the real thing"? At your convenience? With a multitude of partners of both genders? And a multitude of "scenes"? Without any health hazards at all? And no messy problems afterwards?

People might give up real sex entirely; especially if an artificial womb can be successfully developed. Conception, pregnancy and delivery would all take place in a hospital lab devoted to that purpose -- especially as genetic enhancements become more popular.

Some of these things will almost certainly happen prior to revolution; others will take longer.

But the future is dim for "old-fashioned porn"...probably only nostalgia freaks will have much use for it.

There might be a museum...

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[Roses in the Hospital]

The only reason pornography flourishes is because bourgois prudishness makes sex, nudity and such like dirty and undesirable. After the revolution reforms in censorship would make sex more acceptable and public. (It is after all a natural thing) This alone should cut down considerably on pornogaphy's intended audience...
Of course there'll always be someone who wants something which main stream society cannot provide, but providing people are not being exploited I see no reason why pornography shouldn't be available to them...
As they say 'whatever floats your boat'...

[Zmal]

The porn we have today is truly pathetic. Its sleazy and crappily made. Pornography can be tasteful and can even be consiered art but what we have now is a far cry from being anything close to tasteful.

[STI]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 05:51 AM
The porn we have today is truly pathetic. Its sleazy and crapily made. Pornography can be tasteful and can even be consiered art but what we have now is a far cry from being anything close to tasteful.
It's "crappily" two 'p's, my friend.

And, is it just me, or are we OBSESSED with porn lately? There are like, 2 effin' threads about it so far... and the porn in the Trash Can (so tastefully posted by Rasta Sapien).

[leftist manson]

what the hell
i don't know how to bloody quote somebody , but Roses in the hospital said that it is only bourgeiose prudishness that makes porn what it is as it creates this feeling in people that sex and nudity are bad things
but there is an uinherent problem in it as it is the cappies who use sexual imagery and sexual depiction of ordinarily nonsexual things or products to sell more like selling a shampoo requires showing smoe healthy skin of a young girl
isn't it so
so doesn't it the real capitalist mentalituy which flourishes in the bourgeoise culture so how come this deap leak in their actions

[Saint-Just]

Porn is essentially a brand of fiction. Ixabert says that after the revolution fiction will begin to disappear as fiction is simply a way of satisfying unfulfilled desires. Therefore, if our needs our fulfilled then there will be no need for fiction. Ixabert said 'When a social system under which such desires are able to be satisfied on a massive scale, fiction, I contend, will cease to be produced.
He gave the example that moon-related science fiction books became less common after humans had landed on the moon.

[percept¡on]

Originally posted by leftist [email protected] 25 2004, 08:21 AM
what the hell
i don't know how to bloody quote somebody , but Roses in the hospital said that it is only bourgeiose prudishness that makes porn what it is as it creates this feeling in people that sex and nudity are bad things
but there is an uinherent problem in it as it is the cappies who use sexual imagery and sexual depiction of ordinarily nonsexual things or products to sell more like selling a shampoo requires showing smoe healthy skin of a young girl
isn't it so
so doesn't it the real capitalist mentalituy which flourishes in the bourgeoise culture so how come this deap leak in their actions
Essentially. Porn is for the sexually repressed.

[STI]

Well then, I, sir, am sexually repressed (in case you hadn't already figured that out).

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Porn is essentially a brand of fiction. Ixabert says that after the revolution fiction will begin to disappear as fiction is simply a way of satisfying unfulfilled desires. Therefore, if our needs our fulfilled then there will be no need for fiction. Ixabert said 'When a social system under which such desires are able to be satisfied on a massive scale, fiction, I contend, will cease to be produced.

So socialism will provide me with family-sized tubs of whipped cream and banana yoghurt? Socialism will provide me with dragons and a mighty sword with which to slay them? Will it provide me with me with a top-of-the-range fighter plane to pilot?

If fiction is the fulfillment of desires, then some desires must be fictionalised as they cannot be reasonably/realistically fulfilled.

I don't think fiction will disappear; I think it will become more interactive.

[Saint-Just]

Fiction will exist until the point when whatever desire it is has been fulfilled. In the case of porn, the desire is sex.

The desire to fly a top of the range fighter plane could be classed as the desire to fly or feel good, anyway socialism and technology can provide those things. It is speculative on my part though.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by percept¡[email protected] 25 2004, 03:10 PM
Essentially. Porn is for the sexually repressed.
I know many sexually active people, including myself who enjoy watching porn and even masturbating to it.

[truthaddict11]

Originally posted by Chairman [email protected] 25 2004, 09:41 AM
Fiction will exist until the point when whatever desire it is has been fulfilled. In the case of porn, the desire is sex.

The desire to fly a top of the range fighter plane could be classed as the desire to fly or feel good, anyway socialism and technology can provide those things. It is speculative on my part though.
are you saying that no one can daydream anymore either? The great thing about fiction is that it can create events and situations that are impossible in real life.

[Zmal]

Originally posted by socialist_tiger+May 25 2004, 06:14 AM--> (socialist_tiger @ May 25 2004, 06:14 AM)
[email protected] 25 2004, 05:51 AM
The porn we have today is truly pathetic. Its sleazy and crapily made. Pornography can be tasteful and can even be consiered art but what we have now is a far cry from being anything close to tasteful.
It's "crappily" two 'p's, my friend.

And, is it just me, or are we OBSESSED with porn lately? There are like, 2 effin' threads about it so far... and the porn in the Trash Can (so tastefully posted by Rasta Sapien). [/b]
hehe thanks for the correction

[Roses in the Hospital]

i don't know how to bloody quote somebody , but Roses in the hospital said that it is only bourgeiose prudishness that makes porn what it is as it creates this feeling in people that sex and nudity are bad things
but there is an uinherent problem in it as it is the cappies who use sexual imagery and sexual depiction of ordinarily nonsexual things or products to sell more like selling a shampoo requires showing smoe healthy skin of a young girl

Sorry, I misused my words there...it should be middle class prudishness, though it does give rise to the capatalist exploitation of sexual ideas which you mentioned...
After all aren't such advertisements just themselves a product of the concept of sex being somehow risque? They wouldn't have anywhere near the same effect if sex was more publically accepted....

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by truthaddict11+May 25 2004, 05:04 PM--> (truthaddict11 @ May 25 2004, 05:04 PM)
Chairman [email protected] 25 2004, 09:41 AM
Fiction will exist until the point when whatever desire it is has been fulfilled. In the case of porn, the desire is sex.

The desire to fly a top of the range fighter plane could be classed as the desire to fly or feel good, anyway socialism and technology can provide those things. It is speculative on my part though.
are you saying that no one can daydream anymore either? The great thing about fiction is that it can create events and situations that are impossible in real life. [/b]
No. But what they daydreamed about, the extent to which they did it and the satisfaction they procured from it would depend on the lack fulfillment of any particular desire(s).

I don't want to see fiction disappear. But perhaps it is something I cannot comprehend. I brought up this idea because when arguing with Ixabert I have rarely found him to be wrong about anything however much I don't want to believe what he might say.

[Kurai Tsuki]

Well, in an economically just society people would not have to base their careers on the money made, so people who would like to be pornstars could do so and put their heart into it ^_^

[antieverything]

After the revolution will male sexuality cease to be heavily based on dominance and female sexuality on submission? Seeing as this is our animal nature, I doubt it...so will porn be all kind and fluffy after the revolution? I doubt it.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Chairman Mao, Ixabert is just rehashing a C.S. Lewis idea about why sci-fi is needed and added a completely speculative twist on pschology to it. How could we possibly know? It is not worth speculating and its bullshit.

If art dosent exist then there is something wrong with a communist society, it is unhealthy.

[percept¡on]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 11:33 PM
Seeing as this is our animal nature, I doubt it...
whoa... don't say stuff like that around here, they'll lynch you.

Apparently, males' sexual aggression, dominance, and overall perverted nature is learned and after the revolution we can finally shed these unnatural gender roles.

:rolleyes:

[antieverything]

Once I started studying sexual psychology and looking at human behavior as nothing more than somewhat more complicated animal behavior, I stopped caring about being lynched for daring to oppose heavily misguided, idealist conceptions of human sexuality. I can't stand this wierd leftist/feminist idea of human exceptionality!

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by percept¡[email protected] 26 2004, 06:38 AM
Apparently, males' sexual aggression, dominance, and overall perverted nature is learned and after the revolution we can finally shed these unnatural gender roles.
Define sexual aggression and dominance. They maybe an animal instinct, but does that make them right? You can not be objective about what is natural anymore. Nothing we do is natural.

There are many social understandings now that human beings should take into consideration. There are many people I admit, who prefer to play a passive role and a dominant role in a sexual relationship, but your assertion kind of assumes that that is how all men should be. Men shouldn't be sexually aggressive towards people. That leads to rape, sexual harrasment and a general confidence which is completely unacceptable. Maybe it is natural, but that doesnt make it ok.

After a revolution I think men should realise that sexual aggression and dominance is not always ok, and that woman have the same right to be sexually aggressive and dominant. You might think that's unnatural. Well, then stop wearing clothes, drving around in a car, and eating take away food.

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 11:48 PM
Chairman Mao, Ixabert is just rehashing a C.S. Lewis idea about why sci-fi is needed and added a completely speculative twist on pschology to it. How could we possibly know? It is not worth speculating and its bullshit.

If art dosent exist then there is something wrong with a communist society, it is unhealthy.
Fiction is a particular brand of art, art can exist exclusive of fiction. Of course you are right in that most art is fiction.

However, as old desires disappear new ones appear so he may be correct in part but not entirely right.

Yes though, you are probably right.

[antieverything]

There are many social understandings now that human beings should take into consideration. There are many people I admit, who prefer to play a passive role and a dominant role in a sexual relationship, but your assertion kind of assumes that that is how all men should be. Men shouldn't be sexually aggressive towards people. That leads to rape, sexual harrasment and a general confidence which is completely unacceptable. Maybe it is natural, but that doesnt make it ok.

After a revolution I think men should realise that sexual aggression and dominance is not always ok, and that woman have the same right to be sexually aggressive and dominant. You might think that's unnatural. Well, then stop wearing clothes, drving around in a car, and eating take away food.
Animal sexuality is largely based on rape (by males) and submission (by females), TAT. If anything is to change, we have to accept this fact and be damn thankful that human sexuality has the capability to become something better. I mean, shit, look at cat sex...probably most sex that occurs between cats is rape since the male's penis is designed to destroy the female's reproductive ability post-coitus!

I agree with your statements on things not being "right" just because they are "natural". I still must challenge the deeply held misconceptions about sexuality concerning patriarchy and social construction of sexual roles. Much of this stuff is based on the idea that humans are somehow different than other animals and people of different genders don't have a dominant or submissive sexual nature!

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 06:44 PM
Animal sexuality is largely based on rape (by males) and submission (by females), TAT.
But what are you trying to prove by this assertion. Maybe it is true, but what makes us different to "animals" is our ability to percieve our existence. We are able to think and conceptualize certain things, so to attempt to compare our activities with animals activities is wrong.


I mean, shit, look at cat sex...probably most sex that occurs between cats is rape since the male's penis is designed to destroy the female's reproductive ability post-coitus!

I have seen examples of dogs and cats who have refused sex. My cat refused to have have sex with her brother. Interesting.


I still must challenge the deeply held misconceptions about sexuality concerning patriarchy and social construction of sexual roles.

By your own admission the sexual construct of society is a male dominated one. I do not see where these misconceptions fall into place.


Much of this stuff is based on the idea that humans are somehow different than other animals and people of different genders don't have a dominant or submissive sexual nature!

Are you asserting this or are you attacking it. I don't understand.

[Roses in the Hospital]

I have seen examples of dogs and cats who have refused sex

I once saw a horse refuse to have sex. The stallion reared up ready for some nookie and the mare just kicked him in the head with her back legs. It was most amusing...

[antieverything]

But what are you trying to prove by this assertion. Maybe it is true, but what makes us different to "animals" is our ability to percieve our existence. We are able to think and conceptualize certain things, so to attempt to compare our activities with animals activities is wrong.
I agree completely with this statement until the very last statement. While human behavior has the unique capability of transcending base animal urges (as I have said) I feel that it is important that when analyzing and philosophizing about human behavior we must begin with the realization that humans are nothing but intelligent animals! If you look at human sexuality objectively, it has many important parallels with the sexual behavior of other animals (higher mammals as well as ornithoids and reptiles). The point, however, is to build from this base in order to transcend those aspects of our natural sexuality which are not conducive to the type of society we are trying to build.


By your own admission the sexual construct of society is a male dominated one. I do not see where these misconceptions fall into place.
The sexual act itself is male dominated. But even "lower" animals have developed complex mating patterns in which each actor takes advantage of these things to advance individual reproductive interests. The same with humans. While the mating process appears to be constructed along these lines, it is often a complex game in which females can hold most of the cards!


Are you asserting this or are you attacking it. I don't understand.
I'm attacking the idea that our sexuality is completely a social construction and not a product of animal nature.

[elijahcraig]

I'm not going to debate this beyond saying: I am against any attempt to "help" the so-called "degraded women and men" of pornography.

[Valkyrie]

I am really wondering if this so-called "revolution" includes women at all.

The Hardcore Porn industry is completely capitalistist and exploitive... I mean.. Do you really think any women, and sorry to be crude but,.....will be filmed having a dick up her ass, one in her mouth, and one in her vagina and sperm all over her face-- FOR FREE...???? or do one of those violent rape porns or a first time anal??? Possibly only in a capitalist blackmarket... The question is... is porn worth allowing capitalism to gain a foothold in a communist society?

[The Feral Underclass]

antieverything, I agree with you on your post.

[percept¡on]

The real impetus for change in the roles of male and females in sexual interaction (male aggression and female submission) is not going to be social 'enlightenment', it's going to be female birth control/contraception methods. Females developed sexual 'defensiveness' as a result of the fact that if they sleep with every guy they meet they're going to end up with a lot of fatherless kids to raise. Men have (historically) been unrestrained and able to exercise their sexual aggression without repercussions.

This is changing, due to a) birth control allowing females the same sexual freedom as males and b) paternity/child support laws making males responsible for the seeds they plant. If anything these two developments will change the social gender roles to give females a more aggressive role and make males the more picky ones, or at least on equal footing.

Remember, our material conditions influence our social interaction.

[redstar2000]

I mean, shit, look at cat sex...probably most sex that occurs between cats is rape since the male's penis is designed to destroy the female's reproductive ability post-coitus!

Probably most people don't get the opportunity to watch much "cat sex" given the wide-spread practice of neutering and spaying.

It is not "rape" or anything even close to that. The female domestic cat in estrus ("heat") will "knock down walls" to mate; you would not believe it if you hadn't seen it (and heard it!).

The male cat's penis is barbed and delivers a presumably painful shock when he withdraws. This does not "destroy her reproductive capability" -- it causes her to ovulate...to release an egg for the incoming sperm to fertilize.

Since she can carry several eggs to term (3-6 is normal, I believe), it is quite possible and may even be common for her to mate with several males and for her kittens to have several fathers.

A male cat that attempted to "rape" a female cat would suffer serious injuries...I very much doubt that an adolescent male even tries it more than once.

In the wild, things are even more pronounced. Female tigers will mate up to 100 times in an hour...and then, while the exhausted male collapses, go on to another male and repeat the performance.

Cats are something else!


I still must challenge the deeply held misconceptions about sexuality concerning patriarchy and social construction of sexual roles. Much of this stuff is based on the idea that humans are somehow different than other animals and people of different genders don't have a dominant or submissive sexual nature!

Humans are different from other animals. Other animals are different from still other animals.

The intellectual fraud of evolutionary psychology, like its predecessors, "picks and chooses" from the wide range of animal (and even primate) behavior and then asserts "see, this is what humans are really like".

Pure hogwash!

The range of human sexual behavior is far broader and more complex than any other animal. The most that could ever be legitimately said is that some humans exhibit behavior that is similar to some animals.

And even then, it could be coincidence, and not something "embedded in our genes".

Until such time as specific behaviors can be pinned down to specific genetic complexes, all assertions surrounding the idea of genetic determination of human behavior are pure speculation.

And the motives behind that speculation have historically been reactionary.

In my opinion, they still are!

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[BuyOurEverything]

I'm sorry, Valkyrie, I didn't realize that you soke for all women everywhere. I naturally assumed that people enjoy different things, silly me.

[Valkyrie]

Yeah, people enjoy different things, no doubt. But isn't the discussion about whether porn will exist in a communist society?

don't you think that if you subtract the thousands of dollars incentive that women make performing this porn.. that naturally the porn industry is going to dwindle down to a small puddle? It's a very small select group for who it's an occupation for now.

So, since you think otherwise.... why don't you try a small informal experiment: see how many women you meet who will: 1) make a porn video for you.. 2) do it for free, 3) allow you to upload it on the internet for all to see. Then go ahead and buy a cam-corder and film all the porn you want.

[BuyOurEverything]

Obviously the porn industry will shrink. I disagree that it will 'dwindle down to a small puddle' though. I don't know what you meant by the second part though. We're talking about a communist society, are we not? What does doing this in a capitalist society prove? Nothing. Once people realize that sex is not 'bad,' 'evil,' or 'a commodity,' people won't be so uptight.

[Valkyrie]

Yeah, that's my point.. it IS a commodity...
My second point is that if you take away that thousands of dollars of incentive, not many people are going to be interested in performing in one.
My third point is: if you don't believe that to be true.. then take the Porn challenge with the conditions I specified.

The number one selling porn out there is the porn of women getting beaten the shit out of and then "raped." Yeah.. Immensely Enjoyable!!!!

[BuyOurEverything]

Yeah, that's my point.. it IS a commodity...
My second point is that if you take away that thousands of dollars of incentive, not many people are going to be interested in performing in one.
My third point is: if you don't believe that to be true.. then take the Porn challenge with the conditions I specified.


Go do that with any workers. None of them will continue to work. This is a result of capitalist society and the profit motive being the sole motivator. It's not universally true, and certainly not in a communist society.


The number one selling porn out there is the porn of women getting beaten the shit out of and then "raped." Yeah.. Immensely Enjoyable!!!!


While much porn is sexist, it is simply a reflection of our sexist society, and would change with society. However, I very much doubt your claim is true.

[Valkyrie]

Really? Isn't the profit motive to work so that you have the requisites of exchange which is mandatory under this system (that being $$) for food, shelter, clothing, etc. Things of survival--- the reason people work and produce. And THEN whatever is left over--- then the buying of porn? Yeah, for the majority of us!!!!

so, also, in the same repect.. wouldn't the incentive to work in a communist society be for those same things and likewise production geared toward food, clothing, medicine, etc.. and not toward the production of porn. Don't even tell me that communist society will revolve around the production of porn and 52" tv screens, and video games, and all the gratuitious wants and whim of a bourgeoise society!!!!!! Don't you think other things are deemed more important?????

[BuyOurEverything]

Really? Isn't the profit motive to work so that you have the requisites of exchange which is mandatory under this system (that being $$) for food, shelter, clothing, etc. Things of survival--- the reason people work and produce. And THEN whatever is left over--- then the buying of porn? Yeah, for the majority of us!!!!

I meant for porn workers. My point was, go to any other kind of worker and ask him if she/he likes being metaphorically fucked in the ass by their employer everyday and if she/he would continue to work if they were not getting paid. In a communist society, they would work because they enjoy it and find it fulfilling, but that's completely different from continuing with their existing working conditions without pay.


so, also, in the same repect.. wouldn't the incentive to work in a communist society be for those same things and likewise production geared toward food, clothing, medicine, etc.. and not toward the production of porn. Don't even tell me that communist society will revolve around the production of porn and 52" tv screens, and video games, and all the gratuitious wants and whim of a bourgeoise society!!!!!! Don't you think other things are deemed more important?????


I don't believe I ever said that, but people will still have entertainment. A society where everyone lives on their daily ration of bread and water and works the rest of the time isn't really worth fighting for.

[Valkyrie]

You're digging your own hole now!

Explain exactly how the conditions of working in the porn industry will change for the porn worker?

[BuyOurEverything]

I'm digging no such hole. Conditions will change because they will not be forced to work in porn in the first place. Also, they will not be abused by their employers. What are you getting at?

[Valkyrie]

so, now they are forced And abused by their employer? Forced and Abused I take as- doing things they generally wouldn't otherwise want to do. Well, that being said.. you admit that it is an exploitive and abusive industry. And I don't see where it will be any less exploitive or abusive outside of a capitalist society.

[Guest1]

It won't be exploitive or abusive, because there will be no wage slavery coercing them to do it. There will also be no boss to get them to do anything they don't wanna do.

Furthermore, I don't see how it will be an industry, no one will be given the option of having sex on camera as a fulltime job. They'll need to contribute to society in some other way.

It'll really only end up being something done "just for fun", probably passed around on peer-to-peer networks like kazaa by exhibitionist men and women.

[antieverything]

We've previously established that you completely misunderstand evolutionary psychology so I won't pursue that point.

Yeah, you are right about the cat thing...though I've seen the act itself and it certainly isn't pleasant for the female. And yes, part of the point of the barbs is to make sure that the male will be the father and not another male. Plenty of male animals have the same sort of thing...humans, for instance, have a special type of sperm that attempts to stop subsequent fertilization!

Most of your argument rests on the same idiotic assumptions of human exceptionality that I have criticized before. Do you deny that the similarity in reproductive behavior in humans and other animals isn't just a coincidence? What a sad joke!

[Valkyrie]

>>It&#39;ll really only end up being something done "just for fun", probably passed around on peer-to-peer networks like kazaa by exhibitionist men and women.<<<

yup.. I agree with that. the ameteur shit nobody likes to watch.

Oh well, I&#39;m sure the demise of porn as we now know it, will not signify the end of civilization. Maybe the benefit of that will intice people into having actual sex themselves instead of being voyeurs of others copulation.

[BuyOurEverything]

so, now they are forced And abused by their employer? Forced and Abused I take as- doing things they generally wouldn&#39;t otherwise want to do. Well, that being said.. you admit that it is an exploitive and abusive industry. And I don&#39;t see where it will be any less exploitive or abusive outside of a capitalist society.

I&#39;m not sure why you don&#39;t understand what I&#39;m saying. By nature, ALL (or most) WORKERS IN A CAPITALIST SOCIETY ARE FORCED TO WORK. Many are abused and most are exploited as well. This might be moderately worse in the porn industry, and even worse in the prostitution industry, because they tend to attract more desperate people, but it is NOT FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT FROM ANY OTHER TYPE OF LABOUR.

Look at it this way. A worker in a sweatshop is forced to work obsene hours in horrible conditions for disgusting pay, and is abused by their employers. Does this mean "after the revolution" there will be no more clothes manufacturing? Of course not, it will simply be done in better conditions&#33; Is this clearer?

[antieverything]

I don&#39;t know if I speak for all men here, but if I could get some myself, I wouldn&#39;t ever use pornography...hell, the last time I looked at it was because I was pissed off at being horribly rejected as a sexual being by both a certain woman and (seemingly) every woman alive&#33;

[BuyOurEverything]

I&#39;d say those who look at porn fall into three catergories:

1. Those who look at porn in addition to having sex in real life (most fall into this catergory)
2. Kids who are too young to have had sex yet, but still have a sexual drive. They will eventually have sex when they get a bit older.
3. Those who lack the social skills to attract a sexual partner. It&#39;s pretty ridiculous to tell these people that &#39;they should be having sex,&#39; as I&#39;m sure they&#39;d like to be.

After reading ai, I guess I&#39;d add those who temporarily aren&#39;t having sex due to their perceived rejection by everyone and/or other reasons. Same goes for this as for #3.

[antieverything]

Well, I was a bit offended at being classified in the "no social skills" group but that&#39;s actually pretty accurate since the methods and tactics other men use to get laid are completely foreign to me...mostly because I sort of assumed sex would just happen and I didn&#39;t have to play some sick mind game to get there. I also didn&#39;t realize that I am pretty attractive and women would like to have sex with me as much I would like to have sex with them.

...we&#39;ll see how this summer goes&#33;

[BuyOurEverything]

I didn&#39;t mean to imply that you had no social skills, sorry if it seemed like I did. That&#39;s why I added that last bit. Some people go through periods of &#39;involuntary abstinence&#39; not because of their lack of social skill neccessarily, but because of bad/bitter relationships and other reasons. I&#39;ve gone through this myself.

[antieverything]

I&#39;m not insulted since I don&#39;t have the set of social skills needed to get laid...as in, I am largely incapable of putting on the "arrogant, confident, asshole who only wants to get into your pants" act that women seem to go for so enthusiastically. (no wonder since it means they won&#39;t get shot down when they want to have sex)

Anyway, I&#39;ve been going through 18 years of this "involuntary abstinance" in that case&#33;

[robob8706]

Umm isnt the main issue of communism anti-exploitation? And porn and stripping is exploiting peoples bodies for other people&#39;s pleasurably gains...

[DaCuBaN]

Only if people don&#39;t volunteer for it. If they choose in a communist society to make pornography, what possible objections could we have?

After all, isn&#39;t it pretty much the point to remove the oppressors? Give the workers control of their own &#39;destiny&#39;?

If that means making porn then so be it.

[redstar2000]

Most of your argument rests on the same idiotic assumptions of human exceptionality that I have criticized before. Do you deny that the similarity in reproductive behavior in humans and other animals isn&#39;t just a coincidence? What a sad joke&#33;

Is that supposed to be an argument?

Human reproductive behavior is exceptional...there&#39;s nothing else in animal behavior that even approaches its complexity and diversity.

The idiotic paradigm of "evolutionary psychology" would have us believe that humans construct tall buildings for the same reason that cats like to perch on elevated features of their immediate landscape.

If anything, it is your inexplicable infatuation with this reactionary pseudo-science that is sad.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[Valkyrie]

Yeah.. I hear ya.. Buy Our Everything --- As long as they don&#39;t make their usual tons of money.. I personally have no objection to women who want to exploit themselves.. that&#39;s up to them and could care less. the porn industry has no effect on me either way. But, you&#39;d better hold on to your copies of videos, or make duplicates, just in case.... because I don&#39;t think they&#39;re gonna be too happy with the paycut. The end of Capitalism is going to create a lot of disgruntled employees&#33; :rolleyes:

[antieverything]

Human reproductive behavior is exceptional...there&#39;s nothing else in animal behavior that even approaches its complexity and diversity.
It really isn&#39;t, Redstar...not to the extent you seem to think, anyway. Besides, I&#39;m not talking about the vast breadth of human sexuality, I&#39;m talking about the very basic aspects of it. You still haven&#39;t addressed whether or not you think numerous similarities are coincidental.


The idiotic paradigm of "evolutionary psychology" would have us believe that humans construct tall buildings for the same reason that cats like to perch on elevated features of their immediate landscape.
Even more evidence that you have no idea what evolutionary psychology is about&#33; It has only to do with reproductive psychology, and nothing to do with constructing tall buildings. It doesn&#39;t say that humans are no more complicated than other animals, it says that their reproductive habits have the same evolutionary basis as other animals. It isn&#39;t a psuedo-science like astrology or Marxism.

[antieverything]

Do you really think any women, and sorry to be crude but,.....will be filmed having a dick up her ass, one in her mouth, and one in her vagina and sperm all over her face-- FOR FREE...???? or do one of those violent rape porns or a first time anal??? Possibly only in a capitalist blackmarket... The question is... is porn worth allowing capitalism to gain a foothold in a communist society?
Here, Valkyrie, I feel you make a mistake by thinking that your sexuality is the same as every other woman&#39;s&#33; There are many, many women that enjoy having sperm on their face...or having sex with three men at the same time. There are also many women who have erotic fantasies about rape. Do you want to stamp this out?

[redstar2000]

In two successive posts, you totally contradict yourself.

First post...


Besides, I&#39;m not talking about the vast breadth of human sexuality, I&#39;m talking about the very basic aspects of it. You still haven&#39;t addressed whether or not you think numerous similarities [to animal behavior] are coincidental.

Second post...


There are many, many women that enjoy having sperm on their face...or having sex with three men at the same time.

Lots and lots of non-human females enjoy having sperm on their face, do they? Or mating with three males all at once?

Wow, what a "coincidence"&#33;


It [evolutionary psychology] isn&#39;t a pseudo-science like astrology or Marxism.

Ok, now that I understand that your criteria of what a "science" is includes evolutionary psychology but excludes Marxism, that makes your other posts much clearer.

You don&#39;t even know what a science is&#33;

But I don&#39;t understand why you don&#39;t include astrology in your "honor-roll"...perhaps if it were re-branded -- "evolutionary astrology" -- it would qualify.

Sheesh&#33;

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[BuyOurEverything]

You&#39;re missing the point Valkerie, it&#39;s not exploitation at all if it is voluntary. You cannot &#39;choose&#39; to be exploited.

[Valkyrie]

>>>>Here, Valkyrie, I feel you make a mistake by thinking that your sexuality is the same as every other woman&#39;s&#33; There are many, many women that enjoy having sperm on their face...or having sex with three men at the same time. There are also many women who have erotic fantasies about rape. Do you want to stamp this out?<<<<


I totally agree with you. The Majority of women do like to do those things. and engage in them regularly. And with the sorry state of things...they really HAVE to in order to get any satisfaction whatsoever. :lol:

I already stated.. I have no objection to porn. I was making a hypothetical observational prediction of what is likely to happen to the currently VAST Porn Industry in a Communist Society, when women&#39;s bodies are no longer a commodity. My opinion is that these porn stars aren&#39;t going to turn around and do FOR FREE,what theywere previously making thousands of dollars PER sex scene. hence the Cap Letters, "FOR FREE" In My above post.

But, I&#39;m sure my prediction is WAY OFF and you&#39;re probably right that as soon as the Puritanical views cease to exist and bodies are free from being sold as a commodity, it&#39;s pretty much guanranteed that most women will choose that as a profession.. because.. honestly.. There is NO better job and it beats working in the factory. :lol:

[pandora]

Well, so much here

First, I agree with Valkarie that rape porn needs to go. Say whatever you like about violence in the media, but there are such things as conditioned responses, and young males and females learning about their sexuality don&#39;t need to have their brains wired in such ways in the first place. I would say abusive pornography causes the connection between such imagery and arousal. I would not say that say biting or scratching were not primal, but as far as rape porn and the like goes, I have yet to meet a woman who enjoys being beaten, not including light spanking which is recipicol between they and their partner. For one on all of this anal rape, males have a prostrate gland in their anus which can produce pleasure when stroked women do not. So I think this creates a lot of misconceptions, what is pleasurable for a male may not be for a woman. Interesting, I believe homosexuality is a biological fact, the placement of the prostrate gland for males would point to it being biologically normal&#33; :D

But violent sexual acts are based on domination, fear, and misogynistic principals, considering the repression of women that still continues this is strikingly evident.
Having friends who are dominatrixes i can say the majority of the clientele who enjoy being beaten are male and come from three categories:
a. Those who are dominant and misogynistic at work and home
b. Those who were whipped regularly as children and out of necessity to make their minds leave their bodies in such suffering associated the beatings with pleasure, often the body would release some endorphins to help, but this only works to a limited extent.
They often feel they still need to continue to be beaten to behave morally, very sad, one dominantrix I spoke with hates this kind because they leave more broken than they come in.
c. Those who are experimenting

Secondly, regarding rape fantasies in women, the only psychologist who didn&#39;t think the majority of these were caused by past abuses of the female or of someone in her immediate family was Freud himself, whose mind could not conceive the the extent of rape and incest in "polite society"

But modern psychtrists know the majority of rape fantasy is created by past abuses, and as such there are ENORMOUS numbers of support groups out there in most Western cities to help victims of rape and other victimizations, [POWs] to overcome these fantasies and rewire their brains to healthier patterns.

This does not have anything to do with lite bondage or S&M, bubble gum bondage, but with severe stuff.

My experience having spoken with hundreds of girls in the sex industry is most of them are re-experiencing past abuses as a way of processing them. If people want more information on this I will e-mail you information on psychologists who have done detailed studies of childhood sexual abuse and rape victims and tendencies to recreate traumatic scenes in their lives. There is plenty of information out there on women and men in the sex industry and childhood sexual abuse statistics, if people care to look.

Lastly, and sadly, I have seen that contact with capitalist pornography has changed immigrants perceptions of women in working in the sex industry I found that repeated contact changes individuals. The most pronounced cases of this is with young men who are immigrants from countries where pornography is not as accessible.

From experience I know that at first they are happy just to see a woman&#39;s breasts, this is even at middle age, but with repeated exposure to pornography their desires become more and more perverted.

There is a great article on this right now in Harper&#39;s Magazine, about US troop contact with Iraqi men who have not had contact with pornography up until now being perverted by pornography they are receiving from the G.I&#39;s to be interested in all sort of twisted crap.

Of course these men are sex-starved after the moral codes under Saddam, ie.) sex=marriage period.

THE SAD THING IS THEY LIVE IN A CIVILIZATION THAT PREVIOUSLY HAD THE GREATEST EXOTIC DANCERS THE WORLD HAS EVER KNOWN< AND NOW BELLY DANCING IS LARGELY BANNED AND THE DANCERS TREATED LIKE WHORES.

No where is the divide between healthy sexuality being forbidden and perverted sexuality being sold by capitalists, all be illegally there for now, so profound.

I dream of exotica which shows WOMEN"S POWER becoming more powerful.
IF no one here has ever seen a truly star performance by an erotic dancer with full subtelty, it is amazing. As temple dancing becomes a lost art in India, Japan, and Iraq, the alternative leaves me sickened.

Sex without beauty is meaningless once you have realized the potential it could have.

I would like to see proper dancehalls with gorgeous stages and velvet curtains like I used to perform on with actual expensive props and choregraphy and gorgeous costumes. ANd that it would be the way it once was, that men would be allowed to sit and speak with the performer afterwards and have a drink, but then she would leave, instead of this ridiculous near-prostitution table and lap dance crap that has debased the industry and performance potential now.

A real performer will not sit on your lap, she would sooner slap your face.
It&#39;s disgraceful.

[Valkyrie]

absolutely Pandora&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

What comes to my mind is serial killer and rapist Ted Bundy, who said days before he was executed that it was porn..first just the regular Playboys, then bored with that progressed to the violent type of porn and thereby became the catalyst for him to seek to act out what he was seeing in print and film.. because just looking and being a passive observer didn&#39;t do it for him anymore.


BOA --- considering that your views here are completely contrary to your post (below) regarding Senora&#39;s che avatar, written only about 32 days ago... I don&#39;t even know if I can put much weight into anything you&#39;re saying. Which represents your true view?

>>>> Obviously, no generalization in universally true, but the assertation made by Senora Che in her sig is about as close as they come. If you don&#39;t believe that women&#39;s bodies are objectified and sexualized by most people in society, you are blind. While this can be true for men&#39;s bodies too, it is not even close to as common as is it for women&#39;s. In our society, women&#39;s bodies are a hindrance to them as people, unlike men&#39;s. Women are either &#39;hot,&#39; in which case they are objects, or they are &#39;ugly,&#39; in which case they are hated and ignored. Obviously there are exceptions, but not nearly as many as alot of us would like to think.

Deadman: I can see you&#39;re bitter, and believe me, I can completely relate. I would simply advise you to wait a while until the bitterness fades and than take another objective look at feminism and our society and I assure you that you will understand.

BOZG: Two things. Firstly, it is not feminism but anti-feminist propaganda that causes feminism to divide the sexes. Viewpoints such as that which you have demonstrate simply propogate anti-feminist, and thus anti-female, attitudes. Second, you&#39;re working on the assumption that patriarchy hasn&#39;t already divided the sexes, which happens to be a false assumption.

edit: I suggest that this thread is moved to politics as it is a serious discussion.

This post has been edited by BuyOurEverything on Apr 25 2004, 08:51 PM

[BuyOurEverything]

BOA --- considering that your views here are completely contrary to your post (below) regarding Senora&#39;s che avatar, written only about 32 days ago... I don&#39;t even know if I can put much weight into anything you&#39;re saying. Which represents your true view?


It&#39;s not being contradictory at all. I am a feminist, what have I said that is contrary to that? I believe that porn should and will be part of an equal, communist society. From reading your posts, you do too.

I already stated.. I have no objection to porn.

What are you saying?


What comes to my mind is serial killer and rapist Ted Bundy, who said days before he was executed that it was porn..first just the regular Playboys, then bored with that progressed to the violent type of porn and thereby became the catalyst for him to seek to act out what he was seeing in print and film.. because just looking and being a passive observer didn&#39;t do it for him anymore.


Ted Bundy was fucking nuts. Nobody honestly believes that Playboy turned an otherwise normal person into a violent serial rapist.


First, I agree with Valkarie that rape porn needs to go.

I agree, sorry if I ever gave the impression that I believe the contrary.

[antieverything]

Redstar, you weren&#39;t at all clear in your post...especially regarding how exactly I contradicted myself.

Perhaps you mean that since only humans have group sex or non-copulative sex (which isn&#39;t at all true) my statements about human sexuality being governed by the same basic things as other animals&#39; sexualities are contradicted. Such foolishness&#33; I was very clear in what I said and in no way contradicted myself. Reread if you must&#33;

I also never refered to evolutionary psychology as a science, I simply stated it wasn&#39;t a pseudo-science. It is however, a legitimate field of psychology which is in most cases a scientific field. I refered to Marxism as a pseudo-science because that is what it is when it is not taken as an intellectual tradition but rather as a set of truths as some so-called "scientific socialists," "dialecticians," and other such quacks do. I don&#39;t know where you fit in all of this so perhaps you could enlighten me.

All in all, you&#39;ve made quite a fool of yourself in the last few posts, Redstar&#33;

[redstar2000]

I also never referred to evolutionary psychology as a science, I simply stated it wasn&#39;t a pseudo-science.

Have it your way then...it occupies the "twilight zone" between science and pseudo-science.


I referred to Marxism as a pseudo-science because that is what it is when it is not taken as an intellectual tradition, but rather as a set of truths as some so-called "scientific socialists," "dialecticians," and other such quacks do.

An intellectual tradition? That&#39;s not very flattering, is it?

Marxism is, of course, a historical science (you can&#39;t run "experiments" in the historical sciences) much like archeology, paleontology, etc. It examines historical evidence and attempts to devise explanations that "make sense"...and makes "broad predictions" on how human society will change in the future based on changes in the past.

Anyone may argue (and many do&#33;) that the Marxist attempt to find order and regularity in the development of human society is a "hopeless" endeavor; human history "is contingent" or even "chaotic". To them, Marxism "is" a "pseudo-science".

By sheer coincidence, such folks often take comfort in the consolations of "evolutionary psychology"...it being the latest and most fashionable "proof" of their "objective" alpha-maleness.


All in all, you&#39;ve made quite a fool of yourself in the last few posts, Redstar&#33;

All in all, let&#39;s allow the readers to decide who is the "fool".

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[pandora]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2004, 03:00 AM
I also never refered to evolutionary psychology as a science, I simply stated it wasn&#39;t a pseudo-science. It is however, a legitimate field of psychology which is in most cases a scientific field. I refered to Marxism as a pseudo-science because that is what it is when it is not taken as an intellectual tradition but rather as a set of truths as some so-called "scientific socialists," "dialecticians," and other such quacks do. I don&#39;t know where you fit in all of this so perhaps you could enlighten me.

All in all, you&#39;ve made quite a fool of yourself in the last few posts, Redstar&#33;
No reason to get into this even as Redstar can fight his own battles, but calling political science a pseudo-science is oh so Rationalist of you.

True one can not achieve objective tests in quanitive labs, but to reference Dewey again, it is through such philosophy that physical science finds its ethics and also its funding :lol:

We can nah say political science in theory, but in practice it determines what is studied scientifically and why. Aka, what professors continue and are supported and which are not at university, who is published and who is not, what "scientific research" is funded and which is not, and what is considered "scientific" knowledge thereby and which is not. Considering the subjective content of most imperical studies now done in the majority of university labs as paid for by the corporations, military, and government as influenced as such, we see not only is political science not a pseudo-science, but that it controls the reins to all scientific theory, for what was physics as it now exists developed not for military purposes?

Enough for now, back to erotica :P

[antieverything]

Marxism is, of course, a historical science (you can&#39;t run "experiments" in the historical sciences) much like archeology, paleontology, etc. It examines historical evidence and attempts to devise explanations that "make sense"...and makes "broad predictions" on how human society will change in the future based on changes in the past.
Marxism attempts to be a science but when presented as such it should be dismissed as pseudo-science because it tries to create general historical laws based on an incomplete model of historical development. This isn&#39;t an important point to the topic at hand so let&#39;s drop it, shall we?


By sheer coincidence, such folks often take comfort in the consolations of "evolutionary psychology"...it being the latest and most fashionable "proof" of their "objective" alpha-maleness.
This is straw-man debating and you know it. You attempt to cast me as a chauvanist because I don&#39;t agree with you and then try to cast non-Marxists as chauvanists as well. I expect better from you and you would sure as hell not let such bullshit slide if it were addressed at you&#33;


All in all, let&#39;s allow the readers to decide who is the "fool".
What the readers think isn&#39;t as important to me as what my education has lead me to believe.


No reason to get into this even as Redstar can fight his own battles, but calling political science a pseudo-science is oh so Rationalist of you.
I never called political science a pseudo-science as you suggest. Hell, polisci is my minor after all&#33;

Marxism as it is being discussed is not representative of political science at all. It is, rather, an attempt at rationalizing and philosphizing history. It fails at this task because it attempts to draw incredibly broad conclusions from an incomplete basis.

[Valkyrie]

>>It&#39;s not being contradictory at all. I am a feminist, what have I said that is contrary to that? I believe that porn should and will be part of an equal, communist society. From reading your posts, you do too.
I already stated.. I have no objection to porn.
What are you saying?
Ted Bundy was fucking nuts. Nobody honestly believes that Playboy turned an otherwise normal person into a violent serial rapist.<<<


I&#39;m probably past the point of anything worth posting, since I&#39;ve now resorted to mocking derision of most of the views here.

Not Playboy.. but Hardcore porn.. and not only Ted Bundy.. but this photographer who presumably stabbed to death his porn star during the filming of a Slash Porn.

http://www.nbc6.net/news/2948262/detail.html
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1123974/

I brought that post up because I was particularly noting this comment of yours.

>>If you don&#39;t believe that women&#39;s bodies are objectified and sexualized by most people in society, you are blind.<<

Anyway.. I&#39;m pretty much neutral on the porn issue. neither for or against it. I&#39;m not highly invested in watching it, so as long as it doesn&#39;t seep into my life it doesn&#39;t matter to me. I basically hold the exact views of Pandora regarding it, (some tasteful, some raunchy, some crossing the line) and she stated it very well.

[BuyOurEverything]

Valkerie, I stand by everything I&#39;ve said. The difference between my earlier quote and porn is like the difference between sex and rape. Women in our society are sexualized all the time and also objectified. This doesn&#39;t mean that sexuality is inherantly bad.

[antieverything]

I would also like to add that evolutionary psychology is not something I picked up on crank sites on the internet. Rather it comes from assigned book readings, textbooks, and academic journals I regularly read when I was at school.

[Sideshow Luke Perry]

I&#39;m against it now and would be against it under a socialist society.

I&#39;m probably re-stating arguments here, but women, as the oppressed people in society, have their bodies treated as commodities to be bought and sold as men see fit. If we had a socialist society, then we wouldn&#39;t do this, and the thought of seeing porn would become, through the education of us all, pointless.

There was an argument a while back about people enjoying participating in this stuff. May be true, but do we think women are in a position to make a free and equal choice on this? And would they make the same choice under socialism?

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2004, 04:57 PM
I would also like to add that evolutionary psychology is not something I picked up on crank sites on the internet. Rather it comes from assigned book readings, textbooks, and academic journals I regularly read when I was at school.
I believe you. Evolutionary "psychology" is currently just as "scholarly" and "respectable" and, most important of all, fashionable as it was under all its old names.

Social Darwinism -> racial "science" -> socio-biology -> evolutionary biology -> evolutionary psychology.

Each of these incarnations was, in its time, considered "cutting edge" science and endorsed by many and sometimes even most scientists of that era.

In each case, the fraud was eventually exposed and the old "brand name" was retired in disgrace.

All efforts to explain human behavior by biological inheritance inevitably run into empirical problems; the data just won&#39;t justify the conclusions. You can only "massage" the data so much...then you have to start faking it.

And then you get caught&#33;

If you&#39;re lucky, that happens after you&#39;ve received your knighthood and died with full honors -- remember Cyril Burt?

I suspect there are a lot of nervous evolutionary psychologists out there...especially the ones who have gone furthest out on the limb.

The materialist explanation of this phenomenon is quite vulgar; there is money to be made and academic prestige to be gathered in flattering the ruling class. The elite generously rewards those who will tell them that there is "scientific proof" that they "really are" superior.

Telling a corporate CEO that his young and beautiful "trophy wife" is his rightful due as an "alpha-male" with "superior genes" is a message he likes to hear.

It sounds so much better than just saying that he leased the services of an expensive prostitute.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[antieverything]

I&#39;ve already addressed your bizzare characterization of evolutionary psychology as social darwinism redressed and I won&#39;t do it again here.

[Valkyrie]

>>>>Valkerie, I stand by everything I&#39;ve said. The difference between my earlier quote and porn is like the difference between sex and rape. Women in our society are sexualized all the time and also objectified. This doesn&#39;t mean that sexuality is inherantly bad. <<<<<<

Correct, BOE.. Sexuality is not inherently bad. I am not saying that.

woman&#39;s sexuality is hardly the claim for Porn. And Porn hardly strikes a blow for woman&#39;s sexual freedom. In most of the porn, woman are rather a mere PROP in the FILMING/exploitation of the imperialist domination of her body--- with the Objective of Overkill, like she&#39;s an over-stuffed, over-pummeled pinata with the attempt to break the threshold of what can reasonably be withstood of the human female body -- like Double Anals while simultaneously be penetrated in every other orifice of the body, while having to smile and make it look good for the camera. Sex Sensationalized for Profit; Why else do they call EJ on face-- "The MONEY SHOT" and all done to appeal to men&#39;s pleasure of seeing woman degraded. These little synopsis, among others, came off the site Twisted posted here. "7 cock WHORE" "British Ass SLUT." "DIRTY Fuck MACHINE" "19 year old GAPER." "Cum DUMPSTER" "Rough Fucked SLUT" "Cum CLEANER."
Real respect for woman&#39;s sexuality, eh?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I&#39;m probably re-stating arguments here, but women, as the oppressed people in society, have their bodies treated as commodities to be bought and sold as men see fit. If we had a socialist society, then we wouldn&#39;t do this, and the thought of seeing porn would become, through the education of us all, pointless.

There was an argument a while back about people enjoying participating in this stuff. May be true, but do we think women are in a position to make a free and equal choice on this? And would they make the same choice under socialism?

Why is it that only the women become commodities by participating in porn and not the men?

Do us males not become objectified by beeing seen as dicks on legs?

[Saint-Just]

Why is it that only the women become commodities by participating in porn and not the men?

Do us males not become objectified by beeing seen as dicks on legs?

That is true. Men in porn are as disgusting as the women who participate in porn.


woman&#39;s sexuality is hardly the claim for Porn. And Porn hardly strikes a blow for woman&#39;s sexual freedom.

Even if the porn depicts an act typical of what happens in a close relationship it does damage to women&#39;s sexual freedom. Porn degrades sex to an act of purely physical form. But sex is not only a physical act. Love between two people relies on a distinct relationship; this includes exclusivity around sexual contact between the two people.

Gaining physical gratification from watching two people have sex breaks the exclusivity of the loving gesture (sex) between the two people. So, a woman&#39;s ability to express love is diminished (if she participates in porn) because love is not a precondition for her to have sex when she participates in porn. It is the same with a man.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by Chairman [email protected] 1 2004, 04:32 PM
Even if the porn depicts an act typical of what happens in a close relationship it does damage to women&#39;s sexual freedom. Porn degrades sex to an act of purely physical form. But sex is not only a physical act. Love between two people relies on a distinct relationship; this includes exclusivity around sexual contact between the two people.

Gaining physical gratification from watching two people have sex breaks the exclusivity of the loving gesture (sex) between the two people. So, a woman&#39;s ability to express love is diminished (if she participates in porn) because love is not a precondition for her to have sex when she participates in porn. It is the same with a man.
If you can not distinguish between masturbating to some porn and loving your partner then there is something deeply wrong with you, which has nothing to do with the porn itself.

[Edward Penishands]

Believe it or not I&#39;m against so-called "gonzo" porn. Crazy shit like "double anal" and "fisting" and pretty outrageous shit like that I&#39;m against

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Primetime/E...v_040527-1.html (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Primetime/Entertainment/porn_hiv_040527-1.html)

But I&#39;m beginning to think. "Hey if the corporations are profiting enormously why bother with this shit." In a pure anarchist society porn should be available for free like in the internet or Kazaa. If the corporations are profiting that is not a good thing&#33;

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Primetime/E...s_040527-1.html (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Primetime/Entertainment/porn_business_040527-1.html)

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Primetime/E...e_040527-1.html (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Primetime/Entertainment/porn_love_040527-1.html)

[pandora]

Originally posted by The Anarchist Tension+Jun 1 2004, 09:16 PM--> (The Anarchist Tension @ Jun 1 2004, 09:16 PM)
Chairman [email protected] 1 2004, 04:32 PM
Even if the porn depicts an act typical of what happens in a close relationship it does damage to women&#39;s sexual freedom. Porn degrades sex to an act of purely physical form. But sex is not only a physical act. Love between two people relies on a distinct relationship; this includes exclusivity around sexual contact between the two people.

Gaining physical gratification from watching two people have sex breaks the exclusivity of the loving gesture (sex) between the two people. So, a woman&#39;s ability to express love is diminished (if she participates in porn) because love is not a precondition for her to have sex when she participates in porn. It is the same with a man.
If you can not distinguish between masturbating to some porn and loving your partner then there is something deeply wrong with you, which has nothing to do with the porn itself. [/b]
I believe that there is a conscious exchange whether one recognizes it or not.

However I do not agree with Chairman Mao in regards to the idea that people become "disgusting" from being sex workers, no more so than those observing it who believe they are not getting their hands dirty. But I am adverse to the whole "disgust" principal. We are human beings with human bodies, and shame is more damaging than creative, there is no need for it.

As far as "gonzo porn" this is abusive and may damage the body of the workers engaged in it this should definately be stopped. ESPECIALLY AS LARGE CORPORATIONS ARE PROFITING FROM IT AT WORKERS EXPENSE.

What&#39;s next rape, murder and suicide for money. It dehumanizes our society and makes us less capable to engage in one another and trust one another as comrades. Such alienation is the enemy of the socialist

[antieverything]

Oh shit yeah some of that stuff can end a career&#33; That&#39;s why we should stop condeming these workers and helping them unionize like they have been trying to do for years&#33; Anybody wanna help me beat up some pornstar scabs?

[pandora]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 01:04 PM


woman&#39;s sexuality is hardly the claim for Porn. And Porn hardly strikes a blow for woman&#39;s sexual freedom. In most of the porn, woman are rather a mere PROP in the FILMING/exploitation of the imperialist domination of her body--- with the Objective of Overkill, like she&#39;s an over-stuffed, over-pummeled pinata with the attempt to break the threshold of what can reasonably be withstood of the human female body -- like Double Anals while simultaneously be penetrated in every other orifice of the body, while having to smile and make it look good for the camera. Sex Sensationalized for Profit; Why else do they call EJ on face-- "The MONEY SHOT" and all done to appeal to men&#39;s pleasure of seeing woman degraded. These little synopsis, among others, came off the site Twisted posted here. "7 cock WHORE" "British Ass SLUT." "DIRTY Fuck MACHINE" "19 year old GAPER." "Cum DUMPSTER" "Rough Fucked SLUT" "Cum CLEANER."
Real respect for woman&#39;s sexuality, eh?
I agree entirely, this is the problem, recently I saw a title which was about "fucking small vaginas until they swell up and turn inside out"
Where do we begin here.
ANY GYNECOLOGIST CAN TELL YOU THAT THESE WOMEN AND GAY MEN ARE OFTEN BEING MUTILATED. many of the victims are in finincial dire straights, ie.) run aways, homeless, drug addicted, etc that do THESE SORT OF PORN.
THis is not about erotica this is about VIOLENT PORNOGRAPHY.

and when you trace the money trail back to GM and CLear CHannel, it all becomes TOO CLEAR

[antieverything]

Can you trace the money back to GM and ClearChannel? (the latter would be rather ironic, no?) That would make for an interesting read.

[themessiah]

the nature of this thread might lead many to conclude that some participants are particpatng if only for their own twisted gratification. like talking to those who oppose it heightens their own pleasure by hearing what they don&#39;t like about it.

call me paranoid, but people like that do exist. as such, I recommend that those who partipate in this thread are wary of those who might be contributing for that purpose alone.

many of the graphic descriptions and video titles are unnecessary in light of the debate. I am refusing to participate UNTIL someone can clean up the content here. some of it reads like the penthouse forum.

[Raisa]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2004, 05:05 AM
I am refusing to participate UNTIL someone can clean up the content here. some of it reads like the penthouse forum.

And I refuse to participate untill you seperate my M&M&#39;s by size and color&#33;

You either have something to say or you dont&#33;

[Sideshow Luke Perry]

Money and all that sorta thing are peripheral to the debate about whether we should accept it or not. Saying some porn is okay and doesn&#39;t objectify women (and the fewer men who participate, yes, but this is hugely about women) is like saying some corporations are okay and treat their employees well. Surely as socialists we should be against it because of the objectification of women, who because of their oppression don&#39;t have the power to make a completely empowered choice?

[percept¡on]

Is this thread a debate about whether or not porn should be allowed after the revolution?

If there is a demand for porn, people should be allowed to meet this demand. I don&#39;t know if &#39;porn star&#39; should be a profession, but I don&#39;t really see why not. Porn is a commodity and it does provide use-value.

Besides, some women (and men) like making porn themselves and showing it off, regardless of whether they&#39;re being paid. Since I don&#39;t see this (http://www.homeclips.com/) sort of exhibitionism going away, you might as well put it to use.

Porn is exploitative because people are exploitative, and there is money to be made catering to sick fucks. Take away these factors and I think we could have the benefits of a porn industry without the negatives.

[Valkyrie]

>>>>many of the graphic descriptions and video titles are unnecessary in light of the debate. I am refusing to participate UNTIL someone can clean up the content here. some of it reads like the penthouse forum.<<<<

That would be me I guess&#33;&#33; Sorry for offending, Messiah&#33; I only use graphic porn titles and descriptions to demolish the argument that woman are being sexually empowered by making some of this porn. Of course, logically, One is not being empowered when they are depicted and regarded as Slut and whore etc., with intent to degrade and then used and treated in such a manner.--- Why she collaborates in such dehumanizing treatment of herself is beyond my comprehension. &#036;&#036;&#036;&#036; and self-loathing is all I can think of. But, yet...There&#39;s a huge irreconcilable paradox between what she has to do and the so-called benefits she reaps from it... that even money and exhibitionism can&#39;t account for. Well, I better stop here.. as I feel I&#39;m going into crude mode again&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

Hey, I finally agree with you on something, Chairman Mao&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; But, you are right&#33;&#33;&#33; the difference in quality and significance between sex with someone you love and someone you don&#39;t---- is incomparable. and has little to do with the power of the "O"

[Saint-Just]

Even if the porn depicts an act typical of what happens in a close relationship it does damage to women&#39;s sexual freedom. Porn degrades sex to an act of purely physical form. But sex is not only a physical act. Love between two people relies on a distinct relationship; this includes exclusivity around sexual contact between the two people.

Gaining physical gratification from watching two people have sex breaks the exclusivity of the loving gesture (sex) between the two people. So, a woman&#39;s ability to express love is diminished (if she participates in porn) because love is not a precondition for her to have sex when she participates in porn. It is the same with a man.

If you can not distinguish between masturbating to some porn and loving your partner then there is something deeply wrong with you, which has nothing to do with the porn itself.

I don&#39;t think I understand what you are saying. But obviously there is a fundamental disagreement here that I don&#39;t think we can bridge at all.


Hey, I finally agree with you on something, Chairman Mao&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; But, you are right&#33;&#33;&#33; the difference in quality and significance between sex with someone you love and someone you don&#39;t---- is incomparable. and has little to do with the power of the "O"

That is true and simply loving someone is more enjoyable than having sex, but sex is a very good compliment to love. We are both socialists so I think there would be many things we agree on, although I know there are a lot of differences in the views of you and I.

[pandora]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2004, 06:51 AM
Can you trace the money back to GM and ClearChannel? (the latter would be rather ironic, no?) That would make for an interesting read.
Yes I have before in a prior post, which has all the information in spades on this very website at http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?s...&hl=pornography (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=22106&hl=pornography)

Clear Channel owns the channels to porn sites in national hotel chains, GM made millions in porn. I will look back and see where I found all the statistics, it was by a Washington D.C. media watch group, but you can look yourself on the site above.

Also most of the porn creators operate out of fake named companies out of silicone valley, but their owners are easy enough to track down, FOrtune 500 anyone.

Porn has become a big cash crop, also as strange as it may be to some of you if you followed the work of groups such as COYOTE, a prostitute union in San Francisco, and the unionization at Lusty Lady strip club, which did have a picket line, or the case against the O&#39;Farrell Theatre, yes where Hunter S. Thompson used to work, about paying outrageous stage fees for the right to work you will see it is a labor issue.
It is even more so on the East Coast of the U.S. a documentry film by dancers I believe called "Strip" went into detail about degrading conditions. One member of the crew, who was a news reporter about stripping in addition to a stripper was murdered most likely by the Russian Mafia many of whom are former KGB agents.
They run white slavery networks of Russian girls in and out of the clubs, often making the girls work 5-10 clubs a day, while holding their green cards hostage.
Many of these women are well educated, but were trapped in near-starved conditions upon the fall of communism and thought they were buying transportation to the West. Chains of these networks also work among the oilfields going down to you guessed it the Persian Gulf,
As mentioned before there is also slavery rings around the prostitution that serves the men who work the pipeline in South East Asia as well, many of these girls are stolen from their families and sold.
Bush the bastard, has now limited access for such women to health care.
Want to know more? Get educated.

[dark fairy]

i think it&#39;ll be like restricted porn