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Hitman47
20th May 2004, 04:50
CRITIQUE OF MARX'S POLITICAL THEORY

Karl Marx's work laid the foundation for the theories that redefined the left in the nineteenth century. He analyzed capitalism and concluded that while it was productive, the forces that drove it would lead to its inevitable collapse and replacement wi th communism. While Marx gave the world a great deal to think about and has influenced billions, his theories are inherently flawed. Some of the details have been addressed by modern Communists and Socialists, but the basic underlying assumptions of his work, when subjected to scrutiny, seem to conflict with reality. These assumptions lead me to question his conclusions regarding the forces that drive history, the self-consuming nature of capitalist society, and the viability of a communist society.

Marx's first set of assumptions regards the nature of man. He bases his materialist conception of human nature on that of B. Ludwig Fuerbach. Both men believed that a man is a product of his society. Every individual's beliefs, attitudes, and ideas a re absorbed at an early age by exposure to those of the world around him. This argument makes some sense but it ignores two things: the infinite and contradictory variety of experiences any society will produce and the evidence that man's behavior will a lways be guided by certain instincts.

Jeffery Dahmer and Martin Luther King were products of the same society. At some age, humans acquire the ability to learn and make their own decisions. At this point, we are free and can develop any way we choose. In a single day, a human being has bi llions of experiences, and he will learn from many of them. Man not only chooses which experiences to learn from, but what he learns. Which experiences influences us most and the degree of their influence is dependent upon our choices. Those choices are the only thing that separates the Dahmers and Martin Luther Kings of the world. However far into the childhood or the womb you take back our chain of experiences, there must be a starting point. That starting point is our subconscious and our base inst incts.

Man is a product of evolution. When Marx argued that there is no single nature of man because we're simply products of our society, he seemed to be overlooking the forces that made man what he is today. All living organisms possess a survival instinct, without which life could not exist. Humans are no exception; without a survival instinct there would be nothing to prevent us from starving ourselves out of negligence, hurling ourselves off of cliffs, or committing suicide when we're upset, any of whi ch would make the continuation of our species impossible. When we face danger or discomfort, human beings respond at a very basic level. Fear and desire are perfectly natural to us. We are separated from other living things, though, by our ability to reason. Nietzsche's most sensible argument was that conscious thought coupled with our survival instinct generates what he called a "will to power."

"Will to power" is the application of conscious thought to our survival instinct. It allows us to formulate strategies for survival and act upon them. No theory of human nature is plausible unless it has definitive survival value, and it cannot be inhe rent to man unless it's in our genes. If it's not known to be in our DNA, we can't prove that it exists in all men. Survival instinct and conscious thought can be proven, so the existence of a will to power is hard to ignore. Even Marx acknowledges the human will in "Alienated Labor," although it plays no role in his theory.

It is possible that there are other elements of human nature, not accounted for by the will to power, that we have not yet found in our DNA. Looking at human history, we can empirically observe a sense of compassion in men that helps us build the great societies that we have. By compassion, I refer to our general distaste for watching other human beings suffer--those that enjoy suffering cannot function in society, and so do not reproduce as often. Natural selection weeds out people who cannot live wit h others. Marx believed that man could acquire compassion and genuine concern for his comrades simply by making it important in post-capitalist society. This would not only take generations to instill in society, but it there is no reason to believe tha t any given individual would embrace it.

Because Marx's materialist view on humanity does not acknowledge our nature, his ideal reflects the same mistakes. If human nature can be changed, as he feels it can simply by changing our society that we live in, why should we live with the inequities of capitalism? The problem is that his assumptions are backed by no credible arguments. If one accepts the materialist conception of the world at face value, then most of what Marx wrote will be consistent. If one disagrees with the way Marx sees manki nd, however, and takes a more Nietzschean view, the Marxist ideal is a prescription for disaster. Due to our naturally distrustful, greedy, and ambitious natures, which precede capitalism, humans will not motivate themselves to do anything unless there is a reward. Their survival instinct won't let them. Competition isn't just good for men--it's necessary. If there were no competition for the things we need, we would just take them and copulate and nothing else. While the species might survive, it would not progress, and we can live better. Competing for resources forces us to establish our identities and do more than just sit there and exist. Our will to power drives us to accumulate food, money, and control in order to maximize our chances of survival and reproduction. As long as our nature remains unchangeable, We will never be able to adjust to life in a Marxist society.

Marx's economic theory is flawed as well, since it ignores the role of individuals and looks only at groups. The genius of a few individuals is all that has kept mankind raised from the life in nature that Hobbes called "brutish, nasty and short." Th e individuals responsible for these achievements were generally not rewarded until the advent of capitalism and is industrial revolution, which has increased our rates of progress exponentially. If these few contributors weren't punished for their differ ences , they spent their lives working humbly under the "patronage" of feudal lords. Capitalism encourages individuals to make their contributions and spread them throughout the world, raising all of mankind higher and higher from our natural, animal-lik e existence.

Marx utilizes the Hegelian dialectic in his attempt to prove that capitalism will inevitably collapse from the crisis of overproduction and the class conflict caused by enmiseration and alienation. Capitalism, he felt, would inevitably be replaced by s ocialism. Marx died waiting for this revolution to come about, and it never has. Even the Russian and Chinese revolutions cannot be viewed as results of capitalism collapsing, nor can they be seen as socialist states because they retain post-revolution ary class structures and are not radical democracies. While Rosa Luxemberg wrote that while the capitalism will inevitably consume itself and that socialism is a possible option, I go so far as to question the Marxist logic that capitalism is doomed to c ollapse.

The capitalist that Marx evokes in his work is only a caricature of the behavior of capitalists and does not reflect reality as history has shown it to be. Successful capitalists are smart enough to plan for long-term profits in addition to the short-te rm. Like anyone else, they will make mistakes and learn from them. There is a Darwinian process to capitalism, and those unable to account for factors beyond their short-term profits will be replaced by those who can. How many buffalo-fur coat business es do we see? Despite the various crises of the past century, capitalism thrives and shows no major signs of strain. Despite Marx's predictions, capitalism is perfectly capable of inventing new markets to replace saturated ones. If stereo manufacturers can no longer find a market for their goods, they close down and invest their money in a new industry, such as cable television or computers. The crisis of overproduction will never happen because capitalism is flexible and will sacrifice it's short te rm goals to achieve its long term ones.

Marx also never took into account the effect government regulation and welfare would have on the capitalist system. Any business naturally desires monopolies over its markets, but when that is achieved, the consequences are disastrous. The final stage of capitalism, in which trusts and monopolies prevent the economy from running naturally and efficiently, has been prevented by legislation and unionization. None of the problems Marx predicted are unavoidable as long as we do not sink to the level of sh arks.

Marx's alternative to our economic system is dependent on man's ability to work for others without reward. I doubt that man is capable of doing so. If one is to receive the same reward whether one is unemployed, a housewife, retired, a factory worker, or an athlete, who will want to work in the factory? Who would want to be the garbage collector or the ditch-digger? If there is no division of labor and work is not done by specialized professionals, production will fall. Most work is not fun, regardl ess of whether it is for oneself or if it is for an employer who oppresses you. The result of less specialization and fewer working hours is a decline in production. In China, production on collective farms was ridiculously low until the peasants were g iven a parcel of land with which they could raise their own crops. These parcels produced far more than the collective farms themselves, and eventually the collective farms were broken up and leased to families. Production improved, but it is still only 60% of what it could be. The peasants are still too afraid of the government to make the effort to improve the terracing and irrigation. Production can only fall so far before people begin to starve to death. Production is simply not something that an yone should interfere with.

The final assumption Marx makes is that economics are the only force driving history. I feel that this is almost as over simplistic as his labor theory of value. I see a second, subtle, driving force in the struggle between individualism and civilizati on. Men desire the freedom to do as they please, while the existence of civilization both extends his reach and slaps his wrists. In Freud's terms, I would call this the conflict of our collective superegos against our collective ids. Individuals need a bit of "barbarism" to explore themselves and establish our identity. To an extant this requires us to hurt one another, but it is important. If we fail to express ourselves, we are nothing more than cogs in the machine of society. Conflict, competiti on, responsibility, and hope are all parts of the human experience. Establishing identity is impossible without them, and Marx doesn't address the issue of self-realization.

If the community is more important than the individual, as Marx assumes, then we are nothing more than gamete factories existing only to create the next generation. I completely reject this line of thought because I insist that my desires are important and I will spend my short life doing the things that I want to do, regardless of why I want to do those things or who may be offended. I can contribute more to society than my sperm, and I want my children to live better than I have lived. I will reject any system that denies me the right to provide for my children simply because they haven't "earned" it. I have no reason to trust my own welfare or that of my children to anyone but myself and those who have earned my trust. I will continue to make my own decisions, acquire property, protect myself and my loved ones, and try to gain power over the world around me because that is my nature, that is what makes me a human being, regardless of what economic system we live in. Like any other man, I will re spond to any attempt to "redistribute" my property with force. I don't care where it's going, who needs it more, or whether my kids will be taken care of--I will take care of my responsibilities, and other people will take care of their own.

Capitalism will not collapse on its own, but will continue until we have unlimited resources and capitalism is no longer needed. Throughout history, mankind has advanced and progressed and for the past hundred years we've been on a hyperbolic curve head ing up. Eventually, be it in a thousand years or in a million, we will achieve godhood: immortality, omnipotence, and omniscience. Nothing will short of extinction will prevent us from this. We will not simply get halfway there and stop. We are not in herently flawed and we have no limit to our potential. It's only a matter of time until we fulfill it. Progress we make now puts us that much closer to those final goals, and the sooner the better. No system but capitalism can achieve this kind of prog ress at our present rate. We are probably only a generation or two from unlocking the secrets of the aging process and expanding the human life span. We can only imagine what our descendants will be like a million years from now. They probably won't be human as we define ourselves now; they won't need to have a will to power. Only in the absence of need can a utopian system function. The closer we come to reaching godhood, the more Socialist we will become; the way of life described in Star Trek: The Next Generation is made feasible by the invention of replicators capable of making food and equipment from worthless material. When we are all-powerful, we will presumably approach Marxism and Anarchism.

Marx was fairly consistent, but his assumptions are highly questionable. His most valuable contribution was his analysis of capitalism and his presentation of its dangers. He wrote to organize workers and help them end their oppression, but capitalism is probably their best hope for a better life and a better life for their children. Unless a society is so prosperous it can afford to do no work, a socialist revolution will result only in violence and what Trotsky called "the redistribution of poverty. " A society needs a healthy economy to support itself, let alone advance, and due to human nature, that requires capitalism.


What can you give against this?

Shredder
20th May 2004, 06:02
A weak critique, but at least you didn't blatantly misrepresent Marx to the degree we're accustomed to. On second thought, the essay tapers off a bit into lies. Marxian man as gamete factories? That sounds more like your view, not Marx's.

Your disagreements are fair enough, (e.g. "oversimplistic") but your solutions are laughable at best. Survival instinct as a major determining factor? Not that trash again! Will to Power is bourgeois ideology at it's most refined.

I'd provide a counterargument, but I'd rather wait until after Nyder or Moneybags chimes in about how we dismiss instead of debate.

I can't resist though, I've been meaning to attack this little bit of bourgeois morality for a while now:


Like any other man, I will re spond to any attempt to "redistribute" my property with force. I don't care where it's going, who needs it more, or whether my kids will be taken care of--I will take care of my responsibilities, and other people will take care of their own

You still have not provided me with a reason why I should not round up my poor friends and "redistribute" your property with superior force.

I hear them cry "don't take what you haven't earned!" But me and my pickpocket gang, we did earn it! We stole it fair and square!

Raisa
20th May 2004, 19:09
^ :lol: heh. survival of the fittest! Like I said in my other post, capitalism is only cool when its all you.

Touchstone
20th May 2004, 19:10
Exactly

Hitman47
20th May 2004, 23:57
ok thanks guys

It isn't my essay i found it on the internet, and i wanted to hear your opinions.

Misodoctakleidist
21st May 2004, 12:17
I've only read the first few paragraphs but it seems to dramatically oversimplify Marx's theories and makes alot of assumptions; the very thing it's attempting to criticise.

cubist
21st May 2004, 12:38
Marx was fairly consistent, but his assumptions are highly questionable. His most valuable contribution was his analysis of capitalism and his presentation of its dangers. He wrote to organize workers and help them end their oppression, but capitalism is probably their best hope for a better life and a better life for their children. Unless a society is so prosperous it can afford to do no work, a socialist revolution will result only in violence and what Trotsky called "the redistribution of poverty. " A society needs a healthy economy to support itself, let alone advance, and due to human nature, that requires capitalism.


A society that relies on an economy needs a healthy economy, a society that is self suffiecient and doesn't need to capiatlise on trade in order to survive doesn't need a health economy as the economy would already be healthy.

you have assumed that your capitalist economy will continue to exist and as a result are applying how you cappies do it to what marx has said, which is highly ironic

the best hope for your better life in america is to work and earn money, but what about the 9,000 dead that died from starvation yesterday.

What about those making the clothes you where in india, and picking your coffee in columbia, the best thing for them is to work to get some money which might feed them for a week providing theyre corrupt government can keep the economy stable and not have to but prices up and cut costs else where to meet the demands of the capitalist global corps that buy the products

Osman Ghazi
21st May 2004, 12:58
Like any other man, I will re spond to any attempt to "redistribute" my property with force. I don't care where it's going, who needs it more, or whether my kids will be taken care of--I will take care of my responsibilities, and other people will take care of their own

Actually, if you were to take a page from Mao Zedong's book, instead of completely impoverishing the property-holders, you can simply redistribute it so that they have the same as everyone else, and thusly they will still have something to lose if they rebel.

Invictus
21st May 2004, 13:10
Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 11:57 PM
ok thanks guys

It isn't my essay i found it on the internet, and i wanted to hear your opinions.
You should provide a link and the author's name when posting an article.

Pedro Alonso Lopez
21st May 2004, 13:34
Nietzsche's most sensible argument was that conscious thought coupled with our survival instinct generates what he called a "will to power."

"Will to power" is the application of conscious thought to our survival instinct. It allows us to formulate strategies for survival and act upon them.

Well this is all wrong, Nietzsche did not agree with a form of neo-Darwinism or whatever its called. Nothing to do with evolution, there is no tie between it and the physical world of evolution at all.

This is a weak understanding, sounds like first year undergraduate stuff, but I suspect its just lazy writing by some kind of authority.

Pedro Alonso Lopez
21st May 2004, 13:37
You maybe should have posted it in two segments, nobody has time to critique something that long, I only got so far before I had to go out. I think its entirely possible to point out the flaws in that argument but dont post lenghtly articles and expect people to criticise them.

Revolt!
21st May 2004, 13:40
where did you find this article hitman? Its crap to be honest, looks like they know a few things about the theory and have bunged them in to look like they know what they're talking about.


Marx's economic theory is flawed as well, since it ignores the role of individuals and looks only at groups

Thats the whole point though you numb nut.

redstar2000
21st May 2004, 16:53
At some age, humans acquire the ability to learn and make their own decisions. At this point, we are free and can develop any way we choose.

Not true. We are "free" to "choose" only those forms of "development" which are possible in the society in which we live.

It is, for example, all but impossible to become a priest of Marduk in America; it is a choice that would never occur to anyone.

The social pressure to develop in certain acceptable ways is enormous and rarely resisted by any significant numbers.

Moreover, of those who do resist, many have serious mental problems -- petty criminals as a "class" have below-average intelligence.

You may "choose" to be a philosopher -- but should you fail to secure one of the tiny number of academic appointments available, you'll still be driving a taxi to pay your rent and buy your food.


Man not only chooses which experiences to learn from, but what he learns. Which experiences influence us most and the degree of their influence is dependent upon our choices.

Your "Man" appears to be in orbit around the real world, picking out learning experiences the way people shop for fresh vegetables.

People do indeed have multiple experiences and absorb many lessons, true and untrue, from them. But they rarely get to "pick" those experiences and even when they do, the choices are often extremely limited.

It's not a "free choice".


Nietzsche's most sensible argument was that conscious thought coupled with our survival instinct generates what he called a "will to power."

If there were really such a thing as a "survival instinct" -- something of genetic origins found in all humans -- how is it that suicide takes place...ever? How is it that people will put their lives at risk for "causes"...often of the most transparently nonsensical nature?

Are such people "mutants"? :lol:


If it's not known to be in our DNA, we can't prove that it exists in all men. Survival instinct and conscious thought can be proven, so the existence of a will to power is hard to ignore.

Emphasis added.

It's pretty easy to ignore, because the genes for these two "things" have not been identified.

Conscious thought is an observable empirical phenomenon. The "will to power" is just a colorful expression for social ambition...which depends, does it not, on a particular society.

The ambitious Roman aspired to be emperor, "lord of the world". The ambitious Christian aspired to be Pope. The ambitious feudal lord aspired to the kingship. The ambitious capitalist aspires to own the world...or as much of it as he can.

Perhaps it is "the will to power" that is the genetic mutation, since very few people actually demonstrate it...and they almost always come to a bad end.


Marx believed that man could acquire compassion and genuine concern for his comrades simply by making it important in post-capitalist society.

A society that rewards compassion, even if only with elevated status, is rather likely to be a good deal more compassionate in objective reality, don't you think?


If one disagrees with the way Marx sees mankind, however, and takes a more Nietzschean view, the Marxist ideal is a prescription for disaster.

Well, that's one of those "choices" that you mentioned earlier. One studies Marx and one studies Nietzsche and decides who makes more sense.


Due to our naturally distrustful, greedy, and ambitious natures, which precede capitalism, humans will not motivate themselves to do anything unless there is a reward.

But there are multitudes of "rewards"...something defenders of capitalism literally cannot see.

No more than a feudal lord could visualize "investment".


If there were no competition for the things we need, we would just take them and copulate and nothing else. While the species might survive, it would not progress...

As Marx noted, you are a perfect specimen of someone who is a product of the society that you defend. Nothing is possible except "what is". You believe yourself part of "the eternal".

A great many humans have believed that. They were always wrong.


The genius of a few individuals is all that has kept mankind raised from the life in nature that Hobbes called "brutish, nasty and short."

Not exactly. It often does take genius to think up a genuine advancement for the human species. But once ordinary people understand the new idea and put it into practice, no further effort by the genius is required to "keep us raised" from a "state of nature".

Note further that many significant advances were made by people who were not considered "great geniuses" as well as the fact that many geniuses have given us some really rotten ideas that have retarded our advancement.


Despite the various crises of the past century, capitalism thrives and shows no major signs of strain.

An empirical dispute; in my view, capitalism has been "stagnant" (speaking roughly) for the last three decades. Aside from the personal computer and the cellphone, not much of consequence has changed...at least as perceived from down here, towards the bottom of the food chain.

Perhaps "up where you live", things look more optimistic.


The crisis of overproduction will never happen because capitalism is flexible and will sacrifice its short term goals to achieve its long term ones.

At least you hope so.


Marx also never took into account the effect government regulation and welfare would have on the capitalist system.

Quite true, he did not...which certainly made him look "pretty silly" during the last century.

Now that "government regulation and welfare" are being rapidly dismantled throughout the capitalist world, his "oversight" has become a "time-limited" error and his "model" of the capitalist system once more resembles ever more closely the real world.


None of the problems Marx predicted are unavoidable as long as we do not sink to the level of sharks.

:lol: It was precisely Marx's prediction that you would "sink to the level of sharks".

In Iraq, you have made sharks look down right cuddly.


The result of less specialization and fewer working hours is a decline in production.

Not if combined with advanced technology.

In addition, much of "production" in capitalism is objectively waste...things that no rational social order would produce under any circumstances.


Production is simply not something that anyone should interfere with.

Especially the people that do the actual work, right?


The final assumption Marx makes is that economics are the only force driving history.

Main rather than "only" would be a more accurate summary.


Individuals need a bit of "barbarism" to explore themselves and establish our identity. To an extent this requires us to hurt one another, but it is important.

Perhaps a visit to Mistress Condoleezza's Dungeon would satisfy your "need". :lol:


Capitalism will not collapse on its own, but will continue until we have unlimited resources and capitalism is no longer needed.

With the exception of the word "unlimited" (a fantasy, of course), you have just restated the Marxist argument in different words.

The reason capitalism "collapses" is that the conflict between what is possible (abundance for all) and what exists (obscene wealth for a few and dogshit for everyone else) is no longer sustainable.

People simply will not tolerate that crap for even one more fucking day!

And what seemed "all-powerful" and "eternal" will once again lie broken in the dust.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

Shredder
21st May 2004, 17:29
The genius of a few individuals is all that has kept mankind raised from the life in nature that Hobbes called "brutish, nasty and short."

Oh, I thought of something profound.

But where would Aristotle be without his slaves?

Or Isaac Newton said something like, "If I saw farther than anyone else, it was only because I stood on the shoulders of giants."

Vinny Rafarino
21st May 2004, 17:56
If there were really such a thing as a "survival instinct" -- something of genetic origins found in all humans -- how is it that suicide takes place...ever? How is it that people will put their lives at risk for "causes"...often of the most transparently nonsensical nature?

Are such people "mutants"?


The most common answer to your question is those that commit suicide suffer from a severe neurotransmitter disorder that limits their ability to think rationally.
There are a few scientists that believe sthat the survival instinct in humans is only a myth, however the massive majority accept survival instict in humans as fact.

The reason for this is that humans do react with instictive behaviours when the conditions are appropriate. (crying, suckling, laughing, sex drive, etc) Even though a "smiling gene" does not exist, we still smile don't we?

Survival instinct will not begin unless the body is presented with immediate danger to it. This is why people willingly put their lives at "risk". Risk in itself is not enough to actually trigger the survival instinct as it does not represent an immediate and absolute danger to the body, it only "guages" what could be possible. There will always be the possibility that nothing "bad" will ever happen to you; without an immediate "threat" to your life, extreme instinctive behaviour is not necessary.

DaCuBaN
21st May 2004, 19:40
I would refute that - it's simply cause and effect. I believe people learn the fight or run instinct - aka survival - through events in their childhood - nurture.

This 'nature' rubbish is just that in my mind. Even tiger cubs and the like are 'trained' by their mothers - and how many babies have you seen desperately crawling away from danger?

Not many i'm sure - most likely because they have not yet learned of their existence and do not realise there is anything to protect.

*EDIT*

That said, babies smile all the damn time :unsure:

Hitman47
21st May 2004, 22:51
Thanks guys

You guys are the bomb!! :)

http://www.ninjalawyer.com/writing/marx.html

Shredder
22nd May 2004, 01:39
Haha, that website is by an objectivist.

Raisa
22nd May 2004, 04:18
All animals have surivial instinct. Humans adapt, thats why we do some of the shit we do to each other, we feel like we have to in order to survive.

I think "human nature" is a half ass account of this. It doesnt take it all the way back, it just stops half way in the theory in favor of the selfish.

Misodoctakleidist
22nd May 2004, 10:54
Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 01:39 AM
Haha, that website is by an objectivist.
So that explains why he's criticising a fictional ideology which he keeps confusing with Marxism.

redstar2000
22nd May 2004, 14:03
The most common answer to your question is those that commit suicide suffer from a severe neurotransmitter disorder that limits their ability to think rationally.

That's a plausible hypothesis...is there any evidence for it?

Or is the assumption made that those who commit suicide represent "undiagnosed" schizophrenia or other disorders attributable to neurotransmitter difficulties?

It seems to me that under certain extreme circumstances, suicide is the "rational choice"...if that's the case, then "survival instinct" (if it exists) cannot be "overwhelming powerful" or anything even close to that.


There will always be the possibility that nothing "bad" will ever happen to you; without an immediate "threat" to your life, extreme instinctive behaviour is not necessary.

Yes, most soldiers believe "the guy next to me" will catch the bullet, "not me".

But you'd still have to explain why, for example, soldiers in a militarily hopeless position do not turn and flee. Sometimes they do...but often they don't.

Consider the slaughter of World War I; by the end of 1915 at the latest, soldiers on both sides must have been fully aware that "going over the top" (of their trenches) was an express ticket to an anonymous grave...and yet they did so and continued to do so right up until the end. There were some conspicuous mutinies (France and especially Russia)...but nothing like what one would reasonably expect if "survival instinct" were operative.

Thus it seems to me that if it exists at all, "survival instinct" must be fairly weak and rather easily over-ridden by other motivations.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

Nas
23rd May 2004, 04:52
its ironic how some of you dont like when people criticize
eventhough Marx stated that the way to improve something was with help of critics

so for all the critics , keep it coming

Vinny Rafarino
23rd May 2004, 07:42
That's a plausible hypothesis...is there any evidence for it?

Or is the assumption made that those who commit suicide represent "undiagnosed" schizophrenia or other disorders attributable to neurotransmitter difficulties?

It seems to me that under certain extreme circumstances, suicide is the "rational choice"...if that's the case, then "survival instinct" (if it exists) cannot be "overwhelming powerful" or anything even close to that

Statistically I would have to say yes, there is evidence to support the hypothesis.
The World Health Organisation states that nearly 90% of all suicides globally are attritable with a neurotransmitter disorder.

The majority are related more with neurotrasmitter disorders such as depression rather than schizophrenia. Schizophrenics generally suffer from delusional attacks of paranoia that leave them in fear of their lives, leading to unreasonable self protective behaviours rather than self destructive behaviours.

Under times of very high stress and anxiety it is definitely possible for someone that does not normally suffer from neurotransmitter disorder to definitely consider irrational choices. I would suspect this is due to increased activity among several different neurotrasmitters accompanied with increased endorphine and adrenaline levels.



But you'd still have to explain why, for example, soldiers in a militarily hopeless position do not turn and flee. Sometimes they do...but often they don't.

Consider the slaughter of World War I; by the end of 1915 at the latest, soldiers on both sides must have been fully aware that "going over the top" (of their trenches) was an express ticket to an anonymous grave...and yet they did so and continued to do so right up until the end. There were some conspicuous mutinies (France and especially Russia)...but nothing like what one would reasonably expect if "survival instinct" were operative.


I would speculate that this to would be due to increased levels of neurotransmitter and hormone activity as I explained prior. I believe this leads to the individuals performing actions that they would normally find to be irrational.

During periods of high stress, the brain automatically "shuts down" many neurological operations that are not required to provide more activity to the areas of the brain that are needed the most. For instance, when you experience fear, your brain shuts down the area that controlls saliva production, leaving you with a dry mouth.

I would say it is safe to say that under a combat situation, other parts of the brain are also "shut down".

I believe this is the reason that some individuals cannot tell you exactly what occurred during combat; they can only recall small periods of time vividly, the remaining periods are "fuzzy" and "distorted".


Thus it seems to me that if it exists at all, "survival instinct" must be fairly weak and rather easily over-ridden by other motivations.


It seems to me that the severity of the situations described here are much higher than you give credit for. If the survival instict were over-ridded by war scenarios, we can hardly call the initial instict "weak" could we?

I would agree with you only if we were discussing an individual with no neurotransmitter disorders who clipped himself because his car would not start, forcing him to be late for work.

deus ex machina
23rd May 2004, 20:23
edit: didn't see the previous post.