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antigovernment1
13th March 2002, 03:19
article i wrote addressing some of the criticisms brought towards anarchism.


First off, one of the main criticisms brought against Anarchism is that it will fail due to the fact that it opposes law. Because people such as rapists, murders and gangs can run around and basically "dominate" society. I feel this is a weak criticism. Primarily because in today's society, there is an overwhelming force of law and order, and yet we still have tons of murderers, there are tons of rapists. There are gangs, and there is war. Law's do not stop these problems, nor do they limit these problems, because these problems are the symptoms of society. They are the symptoms which come from the indoctrination of fear, manipulation, and repression. That's what laws are for. To repress. That's the purpose of establishing a law. To repress in order to sustain control.

Law's do not solve problems. They simply create more. Need an example? Look at today's society. Because of law, we have more prisons, we have pigs running around with shot guns, we have the federal government busting into peoples homes with machine guns, we have more people locked up in prisons in this country than ANY other country in the world. Once you establish a bureaucratic system of laws, then society will attach it's self to that system of bureaucracy and developed a dependency to that system. And that's where corruption sets in. Because that very system of bureaucracy engenders corruption. Therefore it becomes corrupt, and therefore society becomes corrupt. The top down structural hierarchy manipulates. It creates an intangible tool for control, which is referred to as "power", which is nothing more than an illusion. And this begins to corrupt society, as society is no longer able to sustain a social equilibrium as this "illusion of power" has degraded the free thinking and free will of the individual. They no longer live open indeed, but close minded due to a system of protocols that literally manufacture the morals, and belief systems of each individual. Need an example? The average american will automatically assume another person has done something wrong if they're arrested. Without knowing any specifications, without thinking nor questioning the actions of the system, the individual will automatically assume the person has done something wrong. It's this mentality which indicates the symptoms of repression. It's this same mentality often used to create mass hysteria, like Nazi Germany. Or keep extreme fundamentalist laws intact, (for example: One law say's, "you can't walk down the street with long hair, if you do, you will be shot". So one day a person walks down the street with long hair. He is shot and killed. No one complains, no one questions the authority of this law, because they've already accepted the repression as part of the "norm". People begin to reply with things like, "well, you shouldn't have broken the law"... "you break the law, prepare to face the consequences" ... "you're irresponsible" .. etc.) .. Once society has developed this type of mentality, you're in big trouble. Because it shows that law has degraded free thinking. It shows that law has degraded the individuals ability to question authority. It shows that the law has degraded the individuals ability to challenge authority. And when you have this, you have slavery, because people no longer have the ability to change society. And just like today, society becomes driven by fear. When fear is indicted into society, then society becomes corrupt. Either society self-destructs and collapses within it's self, or the people begin to revolt, because they're not living in the society they wish to be living in.


This is why you cannot point out a single government in history, not a single one, that has lasted more than a few hundred years. Every single government, every single hierarchical form of power has collapsed. Every single one has failed. Societies governed by these top-down structures have always downfalled, or been torn down by the people through rebellion. The only type of societies to last longer than any hierarchical driven society were anarcho-commune societies which had NO government. However, unfortunately, they were unable to defend themselves against imperialism because it was the first time imperialism had never been experienced.



That brings me to my next argument .. Some people say that there is no security within an anarchist society. That anyone could come along and decide to take over the society, and basically screw everyone else over. This is not true. Because first of all, an anarchist society cannot be established without the disciplinary independence of each individual, one that is dedicated towards the ideology, and theory backed by anarchism. This basically means that an anarchist society cannot become established unless that society is educated. Unlike today's society, the priorities of an anarchist society sees to further educate people, to make decisions by utilizing a direct democracy. If you have a society where the priorities exist of things like education, then if someone were to come along and try to take over that society, everyone from that society would respond to them. You'd have the entire community approaching a small handful of people. Who do you think is going to win? The community who's educated about imperialism, knows the effects of authoritarian dominance, and is willing to stamp it out by any means, or the small handful of people. Because an anarchist society sees to exercise a direct democracy, and chooses priorities such as education, the people within that society are conscious enough to approach such a serious problem if it were to arise. A complacent society like we have today simply would not exist.


Some other arguments I hear from people is that Anarchists are trying to make a "perfect society" .. A "utopia". This is simply not true. There is no such thing as a "utopia". There is no such thing as perfection because perfection differs between each individuals opinion. What may seem perfect to me, can seem terrible to you. Or vise-versa. There is no such thing as a "perfect" society, and there will always be SOME level of social confliction within society. Always. Human beings are social creatures, and often, we need social confliction in order to problem-solve and express emotions.




Some people try to say that anarchist societies never work. Well, all we've seen throughout the history of society were governments. Many of them. And every single one of them fell. Every single one of them failed. I believe that in it's self is a good enough reasoning to believe that we as human beings cannot - no matter what - socially equip ourselves with the stability under a system of top-down centralization. That only naturally, we oppose these hierarchies, for they represent control.





I often get confronted with the argument telling me that "anarchists cannot organize". This again is simply not true. For I myself have witnessed organization amongst anarchists, and must I say it's been some of the best organization I've ever seen.

MJM
13th March 2002, 04:59
What is the anarchists phillosophy to create an anarchist society?
Do you believe we must first go through a socialist or communist phase?
Or do you think there is there another way to get there?

bleed3r
13th March 2002, 06:08
i'm not an anarchist but i believe that established governments must typically drop into a stage of anarchy before changing systematic theory. i.e. if america were to evolve to communism, it would first descend into a state of anarchy while the new government is established.

guerrillaradio
13th March 2002, 13:55
Hmm...I dunno, anarchy seems all to idealistic to me. Although I appreciate your points about the law, to me, they don't eradicate the basic fact that human nature dictates that one is less likely to do something if s/he is aware of a deterrent. The main deterrent stopping many potential criminals from going into a life of lawlessness is the knowledge that if they get caught, then they will be imprisoned. This is an accepted fact in any country with established law and order, and America too...lol.

Although I agree with you that the present law and judiciary system is actually a pile of bollox (it depends on how good your lawyer is, not how guilty you are...jury?? Please, how's that gonna work???), I think it is essential that there is a system of law, because without it, activities which we presently call criminal (although presumably that word wouldn't exist in an anarchistical society) would increase dramatically. If there is no incentive to stop a kid mugging an old lady, he's gonna do it. Surely you know that??

Anarchy relies on the basic principle that everyone is effectively a good and decent person who has the self-discipline to not hurt a fellow person. And, to me, that principle is fundamentally wrong, the human race as a whole is an evil race, interested primarily in self-gain, and that would be proved in a lawless society.

Marxman
13th March 2002, 16:52
First, it's anarchy, then socialism and then communism.

STALINSOLDIERS
13th March 2002, 21:01
i mdont knbow much about anarchy but most of the people that likes it are criminals thats my belief so dont get an ass attack

CheGuevara
13th March 2002, 21:05
First it's socialism, then communism, then anarchy.

El Che
13th March 2002, 22:04
This anarchist fetichism with Power I really cant agree with. It is a consideration no doubt but the central problem, the main concern must always be the labor struggle, the socialist progress, the emancipation of the working class. Less state, and a more prefect democracy is also a valid concern, and we must work for that as well, but some measure of power will always be necessary to the very existence of society. Everything in due messure.

antigovernment
13th March 2002, 22:37
Do you believe we must first go through a socialist or communist phase?

We don't believe it's necessary for the two-stage theory .. That would be marxism.

We believe in reaching anarchism by simply creating it. Creating it NOW with our communities. Mobilizing the working class. The first step is to reach the community, to start forming a decentralized political base within the community that empowers the community and the workers, without any form of top-down heiarchial structure, without any form of centralized authority. A direct democracy is the only way to insure individual voices are heard... One of the way's anarchists go about reaching this goal is by actually creating it. Creating anti-authoritarian community centers/infoshops within the community.

Rosa
13th March 2002, 22:55
've said this in some other thread, but will repeat: how do you think that anarchist-society would protect the weaker ones? Do you think that people have so high ethical values not to damage other for improving their own exsistance? Anarchism means "the stronger oppresses"...without ANY regulation. Or do you have ethical education of people? Then anarchism shouldn't be realised NOW as you request, bcs there are MANY unethical people in world, and they will probably transport theirselves mentally in their children.
But if you think that ALL PEOPLE ARE BASICALLY GOOD, go and visit www.freedomforums.com

Markxs
14th March 2002, 11:51
to guerilla radio.

incentive and fear of inmprosement dont work at all. lets look at franch they have the most ppl using hasj and also huge laws and big punisehments when you get caught.

well when you look at holland there its legal to smoke weed and hasj and less ppl % use it there.

look at the number of prisoners in the usa and you will see that is much more that in countries with less opressive laws.

-A-

i think that being slefish is thought by capitalsim ppl are learned by example not to have morals, ppls judgement of good and bad is messed up due to capitalism. take that away morals will follow

-A-

guerrillaradio
14th March 2002, 12:29
I agree with your dope example. I am a liberal by most standards and I support the legalisation of cannabis, and other drugs as, after the initial huge increase in use, it will gradually fall to beneath the level it was at before legalisation. Also, we must consider the huge amount of drug-related crime, which is a particular problem in the UK.

However, I feel that murder is very different to casual soft drug users. What is there to stop someone killing someone in the street in a mugging if there is no fear that the police might intervene and catch him?? Anarchy is all to idealistic. I agree that the legal and judicary systems need urgent and huge reviews, but I feel that they must survive in some form.

Kez
14th March 2002, 17:29
anarchism will never work until the full internationale has been establioshed so that all human developement has ceased.
Then anarchism can kick in.

Anarchist groups have been smeared with so many wankers who dont know fuck all and just want a fight.

comrade kamo

Anonymous
14th March 2002, 20:29
I believe that you cant evolve into anarchism, you can only start with ararchism. After you have lived in the capitalist world you cant llive in a anarchist world, it just wont work, for criminals the capitalist world is an opportunity but is harsh, now send a criminal to a ararchist world after he lived in a capitalist world, it is fucking heaven for him. He wont change.

I hope you understand what im tryin to say here?

IG32.

Rosa
14th March 2002, 22:34
yep

El Che
14th March 2002, 23:31
Send the biggest criminal of all into an anachist society, send a capitalist, and he will love you for it.

Markxs
15th March 2002, 00:58
another thing a friend of me who lives in the uk tolld me of. when you go buy weed the dealer says hey man i dont have weed would you like xtc and then well i dont have xtc you like heroin. when drugs are legal and i mean all you can sell them in the drug store. and only sell it to ppl over age 21. then ppl wont make money on it so much. that would mean no more importation of drugs, so less crime etc. and the council ( anarchist type of goverment ) can make sure ppl know all there is to know about drugs. this will gaurentee drug quality and so less ppl get kiled from overdose. last but no least there are also less gang wars (about drugs going on ).


about the murder thing

why do ppl commit murder. murder is aggresion. agression is caused when ppl get provoked. ppl get provoked when they get treaten like objects and are nothing more then consumers ( survival of the fittest). why do you think all those ppl in the usa keep going postal? so potential murdereress need to be heard and guided, that can be done by their family, so why doesnt that happen because ppl work work no more time for taking care of others.

the family needs to learn that taking care of others is more important then money. so they need to be more aware, aware ppl spot potential murderess sooner.

other incentive for murder is inequal distribution of money. ( the rich keep stealing from the poor alltough they have almost nothing. when the poor steal back they will steal only a bread, unless provoked then they start shooting back this is what selfish society (SS) calls 'crime'.so lets all make those incentives of killing smaller and kill the law whcih only make things worse

MJM
15th March 2002, 01:07
Quote: from CheGuevara on 9:05 am on Mar. 14, 2002
First it's socialism, then communism, then anarchy.

Thats what I thought too.
I just can't see success coming any other way.

Valkyrie
16th March 2002, 01:18
This anarchist fetichism with Power I really cant agree with. It is a consideration no doubt but the central problem, the main concern must always be the labor struggle, the socialist progress, the emancipation of the working class. Less state, and a more prefect democracy is also a valid concern, and we must work for that as well, but some measure of power will always be necessary to the very existence of society. Everything in due messure. "


El Che, true, the labor struggle is a big part of the issue...but a crucial point of power, one that people seem to brush under the table -- and the one that the whole of civilization hinges on, is that whoever has power, whereever -- has carte blanche to set off a nuclear annihilation that could leave the planet uninhabitable for thousands of years to come. And who's to stop them? The only nuclear energy used to date has been by an elected governement. As it is now, even with the arms reduction treaty, the unstablized nuke facilities have to be watched over til the end of time, lest another Chernobyl, because there is no way to permanently get rid of the shit. The sun has got about 2 billion more years to burn, so, unless some other natural catastrophe occurs to wipe out human existance - it will surely be done before that by some asshole who has seized by power the fate of the human race. Something Marx nor Bakunin foresaw for the future. And that fucker puppet in the white house is breaking the ABM treaty.