250,000 Israelis: "Leave Gaza, Start Talking!"

[il Commie]

250,000 israelis rallied yesterday in Rabin Square in Tel-Aviv under the slogan "Leave Gaza - Start Talking!".

This is more than the 120,000 people who demonstrated on January against the evacuation of settlements. This is more than the 60,000 Likud members who voted against the evacuation of Gaza.

All the organizers and speakers were zionists, some supported Sharon's plan and some didn't. We came there with lefleats explaining how wrong is Sharon's plan, how wrong it is to close the Gaza-Egypt border and Gaza coast, how wrong it is to build the wall, how wrong it is to not evacuate the settlements in the West Bank, how wrong it is to refuse the right of return - and how only a socialist peace can save israelis and palestinians.

This rally is a begining of a new period. I can feel it.





http://img1.tapuz.co.il/forums/32016822.jpg

[spidi627]

:)

[Invader Zim]

I think that this kind of peaceful protest is going to be the first step in the forced change of Policy in Israels approach to the situation. Hopefully a peaceful solution will be forthcoming. But how successful it will be?

PS spidi627, in these forums the board has a policy against 1 line posts.

[Kez]

This mobilisation is a positive step, hopefully there will be a good leadership, with good strong theory to arm those demonstrating with reasons for how the israeli conflict has come to be, and what the real solution will be

[il Commie]

And this is Sharon's reply to the demo: the IDF took positions around Raffah, and they are preparing for a massive attack.

Thousands of palestinians were reported fleeing from their houses carrying pieces of property.

[Intifada]

And this is Sharon's reply to the demo: the IDF took positions around Raffah, and they are preparing for a massive attack.

Thousands of palestinians were reported fleeing from their houses carrying pieces of property.

and the international community just couldn't give a squirt of piss. :(

[il Commie]

Palestinian children in Raffah.


http://wmh.walla.co.il/archive/107244-5.jpg


Palestinian woman leaving her home.


http://wmh.walla.co.il/archive/107248-5.jpg

[Kez]

here is an interesting article and analysis on the deemo and the current situation
http://www.marxist.com/MiddleEast/mass_dem...onist_left.html (http://www.marxist.com/MiddleEast/mass_demo_zionist_left.html)

[il Commie]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2004, 05:05 PM
here is an interesting article and analysis on the deemo and the current situation
http://www.marxist.com/MiddleEast/mass_dem...onist_left.html (http://www.marxist.com/MiddleEast/mass_demo_zionist_left.html)
LOL! :D

Yossi Schwartz is always so funny. He has a 4 members group (one of the other members is his wife) and he calls other organizations "sects".

He also denies the palestinian right for self determination in Gaza and the WB. He says there must be no victories under Capitalism, and we must abolish the bourgeoise right here and now.

"No for partcial victories! No for self determination! Yes to banging our head at the wall by disconnecting from the current struggle of the workers! Lenin! Trotzky! Lenin! Trotzky! Lenin! Trotzky!..."

[Louis Pio]

You are talking about this quote I guess?

"Those to the left of the Zionist left were divided into two broad camps. The sectarian left did not intervene at all in the demonstration, as all they could see were the intentions of the organizers who were out to use the movement in order to enter a new government with Sharon. As always the sects turn their back on the masses if these do not behave according to their own preconceived ideals of how the masses should behave. Instead of helping the masses to understand how to move forward they simply leave the masses in the hands of the Zionist left."

It seems like a pretty justified critique to me. I mean groups who won't intervene are secterian...
The danish groups who does the same I call secterian also.
A sect is a small group but it doesn't have to act secterian in relation to the labour movement. On the other hand a big group can act secterian.

"He also denies the palestinian right for self determination in Gaza and the WB. He says there must be no victories under Capitalism, and we must abolish the bourgeoise right here and now."

Well on the one hand we shouldn't help fed the illusion that it would change things. It's pretty clear that it won't. On the other hand we of course support selfdetermination, but as I said we should always explain that it will not solve things.

[il Commie]

Originally posted by "Teis"+--> ("Teis")It seems like a pretty justified critique to me. I mean groups who won't intervene are secterian...
The danish groups who does the same I call secterian also.
A sect is a small group but it doesn't have to act secterian in relation to the labour movement. On the other hand a big group can act secterian.[/b]

It is, but I still find it pathetic for him to call someone "secterian". He has 4 members in his "organization"!



"Teis"
Well on the one hand we shouldn't help fed the illusion that it would change things. It's pretty clear that it won't. On the other hand we of course support selfdetermination, but as I said we should always explain that it will not solve things.

NOOO! A palestinian state on the green line is an imperialist slogan and feeds the reaction! We must all dream real hard about how a socialist state with national autonomies as a part from a middle east federation - until it will appear! Marx! Lenin! Marx! Lenin! Trotzky! Trokzy!

[Louis Pio]

It is, but I still find it pathetic for him to call someone "secterian". He has 4 members in his "organization"!


Actually the number is a bit higher. But that's not the point. The point is that you should adress secterian policies nomatter what size your group have.


NOOO! A palestinian state on the green line is an imperialist slogan and feeds the reaction! We must all dream real hard about how a socialist state with national autonomies as a part from a middle east federation - until it will appear! Marx! Lenin! Marx! Lenin! Trotzky! Trokzy!

Well it's a slogan leading nowere. Are you proposing that we shouldn't fight for what is the only solution?
What would be the faith of a "independent" capitalist palestine in your oppinion?
Peace and prosperity? Or a small state totally controlled by Israel while maintaining offcial independence? Personally I think everything points in the latter direction.
Anyway in your oppinion talking about the solution is shouting marx etc etc.
Your posts are normally well thought, that's why I don't get why you repeat the platitudes one could expect from less intelligent people... (the marx-trotsky thing)

[il Commie]

Originally posted by Teis+--> (Teis)Well it's a slogan leading nowere. Are you proposing that we shouldn't fight for what is the only solution?
What would be the faith of a "independent" capitalist palestine in your oppinion?
Peace and prosperity? Or a small state totally controlled by Israel while maintaining offcial independence? Personally I think everything points in the latter direction.
[/b]

If a palestinian capistalist state will be formed, it might be subjected to imperialism, but still it will ease the palestinian workers situation. I said, it would be a very partcial victory.

But what made me laugh is that he saw "independent palestinian state" and he saw "socialist peace" in our lefleat, but somehow came out with it supporting two capitalist states. We support two states under the first stages of socialism too, because it means the end of the occupation and the israeli rape of palestinians and pave the way for unity.

They just look at the end of the way and say we should skip the road.


Teis
Anyway in your oppinion talking about the solution is shouting marx etc etc.
Your posts are normally well thought, that's why I don't get why you repeat the platitudes one could expect from less intelligent people... (the marx-trotsky thing)

I am deeply sorry. But their name-dropping tendecies just makes me laugh.

I don't know why a seriouse movment like the CMI is connected to such a group of people.

[Louis Pio]

Ok I think I get your point now.
Hmm I will try looking into it, my knowlegde on the subject is not as big as I would want it to be.