Bad Ideas dont go away themselves!

[Raisa]

And RedStar, you should [not?] be so intolerant man, those people believe what they believe as much as you believe what you do, and being rude about it is not the way to show them. You will only make it worse.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



You suggest, perhaps, that they can be seduced into rational thinking?

Well, perhaps you're right.

Why don't you implement your approach -- be all nice and respectful towards the godsuckers -- and I'll continue my "intolerant" attacks on their bullshit "ideas".

And we'll see what happens. When one of them decides to be rational and dump all that god crap...we'll ask her/him: whose arguments impressed you more?

I maintain that the way to defeat superstition (or any other bad ideas) is to attack them.

Bad ideas don't just "go away" all by themselves.
-------------------------------------------------- ----- ---- --- -- -

This was from your site. I like the things you write alot , and the way you put them is very lively, I apprieciate that. We really need lively writings. Its a lively struggle.
But I should tell you, I never said bad ideas would go away themselves.
But religon is not the problem. Opression is. And religon is only a result.


When people dont feel like they need a savior or are hopless in a system that doesnt give a shit about them, when they dont feel isolated and desperate they will stop submitting their intellect to ancient superstitions and religons. But first they need a reason. They need to see it to believe it or they wont let go.

When you clearly see that science is right, of course you have to speak up!
Of course we stop all the political power of religon,we have to attack superstition. But we cant smash peoples religons, that is just dealing with the result and not the fundamental problem.


We shouldnt be so superficial.

[mEds]

The root of the problem, the core is the economics. If you look into everything it is the source of problems.

[redstar2000]

But we can't smash peoples' religions, that is just dealing with the result and not the fundamental problem.

Or, people are oppressed "therefore" they are religious.

First of all, there is the empirical objection: some capitalists are also religious.

Some of the most infamous of 19th century American robber barons were not only publicly pious but "put their money where their mouths were" by donating substantial sums for religious construction projects and propaganda campaigns.

The modern counterpart would be the Catholic Opus Dei and a whole panoply of protestant evangelical societies...rich bastards that believe religion is both true in itself and crucial in maintaining the capitalist order (what they consider "civilization").

So when we ask people to consider the idea of total rebellion against oppression (communist revolution), we are also, like it or not, asking them to reject their superstitions.

After all, when you stop and think about it, what are things like patriotism, racism, sexism, etc. in the last analysis but superstitions? Social constructs ultimately created to express and enforce oppression that have no scientific justification at all.

Telling someone that if they want to be a communist then they must reject religion is really no different than telling them that they must reject racism or patriotism or sexism.

There's also another "sub-text" in your argument (which may be unintentional on your part). The equation "remove oppression = end of religion" makes both of those things sound as if they were program instructions.

Right click "Oppression", click "settings", click "uninstall", click "ok"...re-boot and the religion files will also be permanently deleted.

The modern struggle against wage-slavery (the ultimate source of oppression) cannot really take place without a struggle against all of its derivatives...otherwise those secondary ideologies will gladly furnish "justification" for retaining or restoring wage-slavery itself.

The best examples are the role of Catholicism in restoring capitalism in Poland and Lutheranism in the reunification of Germany on a capitalist basis; not to mention ethnic chauvinism and religious hatreds in the disintegration of Yugoslavia.

If and when capitalism is openly restored in Cuba, the bishops will celebrate a "victory mass".

The revolutionary process (which usually takes decades) and the revolution itself greatly weaken both capitalist ideas and the ideas which are used to support capitalism.

But "greatly weaken" is not the same as "permanently defeat". Even after the revolution, the struggle against "bad ideas" must continue...otherwise they most definitely will come back to bite you in the ass.

They really won't "just go away by themselves."

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[Raisa]

Wow man thank you for relpying to my post. I aprieciate that .

<<Or, people are oppressed "therefore" they are religious.>>

This is what I was saying.

<<First of all, there is the empirical objection: some capitalists are also religious.>>

Actually a real lot of them are and if you talk to alot of members of the burgeoisie they believe god has blessed them, and even though I hardly have the heart I&#39;d go " you ever notice how its alot easyer for god to bless you when youre in america then when youre in somalia"

Im down with what you are saying redstar, dont get me wrong, I just think we need to be sort of careful how we go about peoples superstitions. Thats the thing they believe themost. THey have no reason to trust anything in capitalist society, and have faith that they will finally be rewared for believeing in that.

I am all for uncovering superstition, but we got to be careful.