Questions, questions, questions :P

[Subversive Pessimist]

I believe there will most probably be some, a few bad apples, that would take advantage of a communist society.

I know this is a problem in a capitalist state too, and some people will stay on benefits and do not lift a finger. These are a little percentage, but still, they will, in my opinion, most probably exist. How are we going to ensure that people will work, not be lazy?

My suggestion:

In the beginning of a Communist society, which I believe should happend as soon as possible after the rev. you will have a secret police. They would come into several places where people work, camoflauged as "civilians", and look at what they are doing, kind of like a routine check. What do you think?

What should we do with those who oppose the Communist society?

When people are imprisoned because of violence against others, what do you think is needed in order to prevent this from happening again?

Counceling? Punishment? Meditation? Medication (volentary of courseMarijuana)? A mix of all of them? Do you think hard and shitty work like picking up garbage all day long can make them bitter, and take revenge?

What are we going to do with the psyhchopats, who are born as selfish bastards?

Are we going to tolerate violent religions?

Btw, thanks for your thoughts, and answers... I've started writing a few articles on my own, with the inspiration of many of you, including TheAnarchistTension, RedStar, etc. :) I'm going to give them out to friends and family members, who obviously think I am an authotarian fascist who would like to see people being starved and put into gas chambers. :lol:

[monkeydust]

I know this is a problem in a capitalist state too, and some people will stay on benefits and do not lift a finger. These are a little percentage, but still, they will, in my opinion, most probably exist. How are we going to ensure that people will work, not be lazy?

Some might suggest that people who are reuly lazy, should not be given any benefit at all, though this doesn't really solve the problem.

For a great number of people, sitting around doing nothing is incredibly boring, especially considering the lacklustre quality of daytime TV. In a communist society, people will have a great deal of freedom to gravitate to the kind of occupation which they find enjoyable, interesting and rewarding. I personally feel that there won't be a great number of "lazy bums" around.

Moreover, there will be considerable social pressure to work, and not to be lazy.



In the beginning of a Communist society, which I believe should happend as soon as possible after the rev. you will have a secret police. They would come into several places where people work, camoflauged as "civilians", and look at what they are doing, kind of like a routine check. What do you think?

Definately not.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 05:46 PM
How are we going to ensure that people will work, not be lazy?
Ask anyone out on the street whether or not they enjoy working in their job and the majority of them will tell you that they hate their job. It's just necessary because the alternatives are not desirable.

The reason for this is because the work they do is for no real purpose except to make other people money. They do not see their work as something which is productive to them, they just see it as something which they must do in order to buy a new DVD or pay their rent.

In a communist society the work that people would do would be for the benifit of society. Inane, boring, profit making jobs wont exist. What people will have are jobs which are socially necessary within society and which produce things which everyone can use. That is a big difference. Do you not think that people would rather spend a few hours working in a factory for the benifit of their community, rather than for the benifit of their boss.

When empowered with an understanding of their conditions and their relation to those conditions I think the choice will always be to benifit their community. If there a few people in society who refuse to work I think they will find themselves very isolated from their communities and will also end up not having any food.

Marx summed up the way people would work in society when he said "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need."


will have a secret police. They would come into several places where people work, camoflauged as "civilians", and look at what they are doing, kind of like a routine check. What do you think?

I have no problem with having a group of workers who worked to sabatage counter revolutionaries secretly. It would be how those groups would be organized. They would have to be independent groups of volunteers accountable to the community as a whole. There could be no central authority or hierarchies, because this will lead to a monoplisation of power and it would make it very easy for someone to use it for their advantage.

These groups would have to work independently of each other, while maintaining a level of co-ordination and be democratically accountable. They could only be used if they were absolutly necessary to defend the revolution. They could not be something which existed outside of that necessity. I would even go so far as to say if these groups were necessary their members would be democratically elected volunteers from within the communities they were protecting.


What should we do with those who oppose the Communist society?

It depends in what way they were opposing us. I do not advocate summary executions of opponents for the sake of executing them. If they are found to be activly and violently attempting to subvert the revolution then I think it would be a democratic decision by the militias or communities involved, and most often than not the use of violence may be a necessity to defend outselves.

This is a real problem within the anarchist trend, or at least among my comrades. Many of my friends are pacifists and oppose the use of violence in any instance. Other anarchists, including Alexander Berkman opposed the use of political violence opting to allow opponents to oppose society. Mikhail Bakunin, the modern father of anarchism, advocated absolute freedom of speech believing that an enlightened society would have the ability to see through these lies and realise that they were wrong. I think this is true to a certain level, but we can not be afraid of using violence if it is necessary. Unfortunatly our opponents may not give us any option but to use violence against them. The nature of the state is violent and we may not be left with a choice. But we also have to be carful that we do not substitute state violence with political violence. It good be argued that they are the same thing.


When people are imprisoned because of violence against others, what do you think is needed in order to prevent this from happening again?

I think violence against others will be very limited in a communist society. If it does occur I think it is up to the community to deal with them. If we also look at why people are violent in a capitalist society we might see that the reasons are because capitalism creates so much alienation and isolation between people, and because society puts so much value on objects, the desire to protect, the desire to look superior and indeed the primitive desire to get revenge happens alot. Things such as alienation, the worshipping of objects and the concept of egotism just wont exist anymore. These things will be replaced with co-operation, understanding and solidarity.


Counceling? Punishment? Meditation? Medication (volentary of courseMarijuana)? A mix of all of them? Do you think hard and shitty work like picking up garbage all day long can make them bitter, and take revenge?

What we need is understanding. Punishment is a primitive and basic human absurdity. The need to get one back on someone else is rediculous. Showing someone that the bad thing they did was wrong by doing a bad thing to them just is absurd.

If we do have crimes in our society then we have to understand them and be progressive, not reactionary in solving them. We may hate some of the crimes that people do, but there has to be a reason for them. And I do not think there is any crime that people commit is because they are inherently "evil." It's just bullshit.


Btw, thanks for your thoughts, and answers... I've started writing a few articles on my own, with the inspiration of many of you, including TheAnarchistTension, RedStar, etc. :) I'm going to give them out to friends and family members, who obviously think I am an authotarian fascist who would like to see people being starved and put into gas chambers. :lol:

Go for it dude. It's good to put your thoughts down on paper. You could also add them in the theory so we can debate them.

[The Feral Underclass]

Are we going to tolerate violent religions?

I do not think that people will need a god. If there are people who believe it, then let them. In their own time. Organised religions have no place in a communist society.

[Subversive Pessimist]

I would even go so far as to say if these groups were necessary their members would be democratically elected volunteers from within the communities they were protecting.

I agree with you. However, what if the majority of the people were capitalists? Maybe they would create a conspiracy?



I think violence against others will be very limited in a communist society.

I believe so too. But I believe it will happend at some point. People get pissed off, argues, get drunk, loose temper, fighting over boyfriend/girlfriend etc.


Let's say drugs are legalized. Are we going to allow little kids to use drugs like heroin?
My suggestion would be to start research on drugs that does not create side effects.


Let us say that the revolution took over the country. There are thousands of churches, mosques, etc. do you believe they should be destroyed? I think this will create hatred and violence..

You say no organized religion have no place in a communist society. What about spiritual things like buddhism, meditation, karma sutra etc.? It could also be a great place to meet other people...
You know, the Dalai Lama has some interesting points.. I think he has many communist or anarchist ideas... Like de-militarization (sic?) of the world, peace, justice, well being of all people, end of discrimination and segregation.

Also, sects and cults like Freemasons are an organization with a great deal of control in the world, and the members are made of borgeuiese (sic) and rich people... Should these organisations be disolved? If so, they might of course be like an underground organisation? I think this might be bad, because then you would have even less control of the organsation, which is by many seen as threathening. Kings and presidents are usually involved in organisations and their connections, like skull and bones.

I'll add my theories at some point...

There's so many theories I forgot the meaning of them once in a while, so let me check...

What was the theory about thesis, antithesis, synthesis etc.?

Uh, is this the theory in practice (I might get it totally wrong though, and this might sound silly, but)?

Let's say I'm fat (negative), and I want to get rid of the fat (opposing element in the negative), and then I will go to volentary work, doing hard work for the community (progressive), thus get rid of the fat?

So... The negative will always have opposing elements inside them, which drive things forward, and create progress?

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 07:00 PM
I agree with you. However, what if the majority of the people were capitalists? Maybe they would create a conspiracy?
The vast majority of people wouldn't be capitalists. The point of any revolution would be to get rid of capitalism.


I believe so too. But I believe it will happend at some point. People get pissed off, argues, get drunk, loose temper, fighting over boyfriend/girlfriend etc.

But people shouldn't be man-handled like children. People choose to drink, they choose to have partners, they are choices made by human beings, and they must be responsable for the consquences. If they get drunk and argue, or lose their temper and comit and act of violence, they will most likly lose the respect of their friends and family, and maybe even their community. Punishment is an absurd method of changing these things. Either way, it is up to the communities to deal with problems if the problems can not be dealt with between the people involved. Which most often than not it can be.


Let's say drugs are legalized. Are we going to allow little kids to use drugs like heroin?

We have no right to stop them. Teenagers should be made aware of the dangers of taking highly addictive chemicals. All they can do is be aware of them. We must make sure that people understand them, but at the end of the day these things are personal choices. We have no right to tell another person what they can or can not do. What we think is what we think. You do not have to agree with it, but it is still not your choice.


My suggestion would be to start research on drugs that does not create side effects.

A noble endevour, and one that I am sure people could research. In fact I imagine it would be a lot of fun.


Let us say that the revolution took over the country. There are thousands of churches, mosques, etc. do you believe they should be destroyed? I think this will create hatred and violence..

In order for people to have a revolution they first must understand certain things. Many people, once empowered to change their lives and the world around them, will forget about god. I do not think that mosques should be destroyed as such, but I believe that religion must take second place to achieving communism. Religion is a reactionary and to some extent counter-revolutionary element. If it threatened to stability of the revolution then we would have to argue within our communities to act in some way to stop that.


You say no organized religion have no place in a communist society. What about spiritual things like buddhism, meditation, karma sutra etc.?

If people won't to do this, then it is their choice to do so, as long as it does not encrotch on other peoples freedom and liberty or threatens the revolution. People can worship their garden knoms for all I care as long as they are dedicated to achieving a communist society.


You know, the Dalai Lama has some interesting points.. I think he has many communist or anarchist ideas... Like de-militarization (sic?) of the world, peace, justice, well being of all people, end of discrimination and segregation.

Poissibly, but like all other religious leaders his life is subjugated to a myth and so his ability to be rational and objective is greatly impaired. Plus he is a pacifist.


Also, sects and cults like Freemasons are an organization with a great deal of control in the world, and the members are made of borgeuiese (sic) and rich people

These elitist groups will be smashed. They have no place in a communist society. They are no better than the police force or the army. If they fight us, we will fight back.


If so, they might of course be like an underground organisation?

Please remember that a revolution can only come from a mass understanding of certain concepts. There will be some small organisations like this, but none of any significance. If they tried to attack us, we would defend ourselves, otherwise we should just leave them to die out naturally.


What was the theory about thesis, antithesis, synthesis etc.?

Uh, is this the theory in practice (I might get it totally wrong though, and this might sound silly, but)?

Let's say I'm fat (negative), and I want to get rid of the fat (opposing element in the negative), and then I will go to volentary work, doing hard work for the community (progressive), thus get rid of the fat?

So... The negative will always have opposing elements inside them, which drive things forward, and create progress?

It sounds like you are talking about dialectics, which is the basis of Marxism. The key to learning and becoming more knowledgable is to read more.

[ComradeRed]

In the beginning of a Communist society, which I believe should happend as soon as possible after the rev. you will have a secret police. They would come into several places where people work, camoflauged as "civilians", and look at what they are doing, kind of like a routine check. What do you think? A million times no, ruling through fear is fascism. It is unjustifiably wrong.


What should we do with those who oppose the Communist society? You mean reactionaries? Well, put them on trial and then have them put in jail.


When people are imprisoned because of violence against others, what do you think is needed in order to prevent this from happening again? Good question. I suppose it depends on the case, e.g. if one causes violence out of psychological problems he should get help, whereas a burglar makes violence out of greed he should be arrested and tried.


Counceling? Punishment? Meditation? Medication (volentary of courseMarijuana)? A mix of all of them? Do you think hard and shitty work like picking up garbage all day long can make them bitter, and take revenge?
No drugs, no meditation, no mix. Have them be in jail.


What are we going to do with the psyhchopats, who are born as selfish bastards? Counseling.


Are we going to tolerate violent religions? Does capitalism (correct answer no)


Btw, thanks for your thoughts, and answers... I've started writing a few articles on my own, with the inspiration of many of you, including TheAnarchistTension, RedStar, etc. I'm going to give them out to friends and family members, who obviously think I am an authotarian fascist who would like to see people being starved and put into gas chambers. Don't forget me :P seriously some will just call it propaganda.

[Tchuncly]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 03:46 PM
What are we going to do with the psyhchopats, who are born as selfish bastards?
why do you think so?
I believe that they become psychos because of experiences...for example, when kids exclude others of the group for some reasons, or when they poke fun at other's fatness, height, etc...
just one of thousands other examples of things that could make someone hate society/other people, etc..

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 01:55 AM
whereas a burglar makes violence out of greed he should be arrested and tried.
People are forced into these situations by their economic situations. Not because they are greedy. You can not send someone to jail for trying to survive, no matter how many televisions they have stolen.

Communist society should provide excellent economic standards for people, so the need to steal will not exist. When people are able to eat and sleep comofortably without fear of not doing those things, the necessity to go out and rob someone does not exist.

You can not coerce people and put them into jail, just because they wanted a better standard of living.

[Subversive Pessimist]

This question really caught my mind..

In a capitalist society, you can regulate job priorities etc. with money, but in a society where you can't do this by money, how on earth are you going ot regulate it? :blink:

[ComradeRed]

Wants and needs in a communist society (http://redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1083343837&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&) I think that answers your question ;)

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 04:48 PM
In a capitalist society, you can regulate job priorities etc. with money, but in a society where you can't do this by money, how on earth are you going ot regulate it?
Jobs would be dealt with based on necessity. That is how they would be prioritised.

[mEds]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 09:48 AM

In a capitalist society, you can regulate job priorities etc. with money, but in a society where you can't do this by money, how on earth are you going ot regulate it? :blink:
The myth of the matter is that money is also one of the oppresors. The use of an "economy" is antagonistic to the very nature of people. However, in a communist state in order to maintain production, analytical studies whill be used, i.e census. Another myth about a Marxist state is that you can't have "good things" like computers or televisions or cars. In a communist state, the use of electric/much more efficient cars would be MANDATED, grotesque commercialism and materialism would be shunned and television would become much more beneficial. Computers in raw materials are also not "3,000" for a top of the line system. It is more around two hundred dollars. When people have free choice they would do what they like and people would voluntarily work "mundane" jobs for the betterment of society. Exploitation would not be necessary at all. But some humanistic things would still remain like people cheating on tests at school, people wanting to go 160mph/230kmh on the highway etc. ;) Also prevention>punishment. Just look at how America has basically done nothing to curb drunk driving. I could elaborate more on this but im too lazy.

[The Feral Underclass]

There's no such thing as a communist state.

[mEds]

None have existed. But there is such a thing as a communist state/country/whatever you want to call it.

[ComradeRed]

But there is such a thing as a communist state/country/whatever you want to call it.
No, there isn't. Communism has internationalism, not nationalism ----- a communist nation-state can't exist, whereas a communist world can.

[mEds]

Ergo, JUST one country encompassing all the continents of the world... So there is a state. That is the goal. All we had was a communications difficulty i suppose than.

[ComradeRed]

So there is a state There is no state in a classless society (http://redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1082898978&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&), there is one in the Socialist transition (http://redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1082900868&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&)

[mEds]

That is exactly why I am a Marxist and not a communist. There is also no *definitive* explanation of what communism is.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 11:35 PM
That is exactly why I am a Marxist and not a communist. There is also no *definitive* explanation of what communism is.
What a very odd assertion. You are a Marxist but you are not a communist?

Marx once said "If I know anything, it is that I am not a marxist." So many people try to twist and change what he said to fit with their own ideas about politics it's laughable. Marxism is a scientific theory and philosophy based on the whole notion that society will eventually be communist.

You may not be able to define it, but Marx certainly was. He defined it as the last stage of human history. A society without a state, without government, and thus class, with no hierarchical structures based on the principle, and I quote Marx again, "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need."

[Subversive Pessimist]

As far as what I am being told:

Marx was at a party, meeting or whatever, and there was some Marxist's acting strange, or improper. So he said, as a joke: If that is Marxism, I'm not a marxist.

Anyways, I believe that you can still have Communism, even though there are capitalist countries in the world. I believe it can be achieved if we have enough resources, and then we are not dependent on capitalist states.

[Raisa]

<<What should we do with those who oppose the Communist society? >>

Kill &#39;em with kindness.

<<When people are imprisoned because of violence against others, what do you think is needed in order to prevent this from happening again?>>

I am against punishment, people punishing each other is barbaric, and getting "punished" is the WRONG reason not to do something in a communist society. What I say, is to personally assess people&#39;s minds, and what apeals to their mind particularly...maybe with a test or two, and then use that information to intimately rehabilitate them, also considering why they do it as well.

<<What are we going to do with the psyhchopats, who are born as selfish bastards?>>

It depends on what their doing.

<<Are we going to tolerate violent religions?>>

We are not going to tolerate violence, period.

[Mary Poppins]

<<<<<What should we do with those who oppose the Communist society? >>

Kill &#39;em with kindness. ">>>>>>>>



I am entirely sure that this strategy shall coax the Neocons...or not. :)

[memz]

i would really like to thank everybody who posted on this topic

I am new to the forum.

When i read your post i feel more and more comfortable with myself, knowing that i am not the only person who thinks in the same way

A spical thanks to The Anarchist Tension. I really enjoyed reading your post

Thanks to Justice for asks all these really Relevant questions

[Hiero]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 07:14 AM
i would really like to thank everybody who posted on this topic

I am new to the forum.

When i read your post i feel more and more comfortable with myself, knowing that i am not the only person who thinks in the same way

A spical thanks to The Anarchist Tension. I really enjoyed reading your post

Thanks to Justice for asks all these really Relevant questions
After reading this it makes me feel very sick that people call themselves communist yet talk about no punishment for criminals, allowing teenagers to have herion and think that common violence will reduce once capitalism is overthrown.

Here is a question the originator of this thread forgot to ask, what will we do with liberal&#39;s.

[(*]

Punishment doesn&#39;t solve the problem.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by comrade [email protected] 28 2004, 10:59 AM
After reading this it makes me feel very sick that people call themselves communist yet talk about no punishment for criminals, allowing teenagers to have herion and think that common violence will reduce once capitalism is overthrown.
That&#39;s because you don&#39;t have the first clue about communism.

[Hiero]

Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 28 2004, 09:28 AM
That&#39;s because you don&#39;t have the first clue about communism.
Right because allowing teenagers to have herion is all about communism.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by comrade [email protected] 28 2004, 11:38 AM
Right because allowing teenagers to have herion is all about communism.
According to you it is&#33;?

[Hiero]

Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 28 2004, 09:45 AM
According to you it is&#33;?
What was the goal of that comment, and unblock me.

[memz]

all i was trying to say was that, the posts that people put in are really good and intesting

[Hiero]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 10:00 AM
all i was trying to say was that, the posts that people put in are really good and intesting
I didnt direct it at you.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by comrade [email protected] 28 2004, 11:51 AM
What was the goal of that comment, and unblock me.
If you&#39;re too fucking stupid to realise what your typing then that&#39;s your problem.

And why would I want to unblock you, I have nothing I would want to talk with you about.