Beheading of American

[colombiano]

:angry: I just finished watching that barbaric display by those f%#$@^ ANIMALS!! IT IS TIME FOR THE WHOLE WORLD TO UNITE. CAPITALIST, SOCIALISTS AND COMMUNISTS, CHRISTIANS, JEWS , ATHEISTS......... AND ERADICATE THE WORLD OF ISLAMIC FUNDAMENALISTS! THESE PEOPLE NO NOTHING BUT ANGER AND HATE. THEY ARE MONSTERS THAT SHOULD BE DESTROYED!!!!I am an American with leftist views and these people who fight everyone in the name of Allah are the cancer of the world! Perhaps we should all unite as we did in WW2 and destroy the people who wish to destroy mankind!

[Kez]

our enemy is capitalism, without capitalism there is no funndamentalism, look deep into the problem.

Fundamentalism is a reaction against the brutality of capitalism and imperialism, if we end capitalism, all these horrors such as Bush, Sharon, Blair, Bin Laden etc all go away.

Remember, the CIA started Al Quaideh and Bin Laden against the USSR in Afghanastan

[colombiano]

I understand what you are saying but what type of government do you think these people want? The fought the Soviets in Afganistan. The rule by fear they repress women . If capitalism is gone there will be a new enemy in the name of Allah.I have Socialist beliefs and basic Human rights. These people have no regard for Human rights or Human life.

[James]

was there no fundamentalism before capitalism?

[redstar2000]

I am an American with leftist views and these people who fight everyone in the name of Allah are the cancer of the world!

Indeed? Have they invaded and occupied the United States? Or the United Kingdom? Or Australia?

Have they imposed military or royal dictatorships on "us"? Or taken over one of "our" big prisons and arrested and tortured "us"?

Are they looting and plundering "our" natural resources?

Your sense of outrage is misdirected. It is the United States and its lackeys that invade and occupy other countries, killing and torturing any who stand in its way.

Islamic fundamentalism is, indeed, a very "dirty business".

But compared to the behavior of the United States?

No contest!

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[Sloth]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 04:31 PM
was there no fundamentalism before capitalism?
Wow...someone here does have a normal brain mass.

[colombiano]

I believe in Social Justice but NOT at the hands of Bin Laden and his henchmen! Just remember that if you do Not ride with them (Islamic Fundamenalists) then you could very well be their next victim. If you do not share their faith you are their enemy.

[colombiano]

I do not wish to engage in a pissing contest of what caused the problem . I know of the grave injustices done by my country. I do not agree with foreign policy of this and previous administrations, however the problem is there and sitting around pointing fingers will do no good. Action needs to be taken and this cancer must be destroyed . The people must unite as one and create a better world for mankind. I agree with all of you about how the problem began but as humans we must rid ourselves of these monsters.Then and only then can we talk of a socialist utopia.

[Invader Zim]

Hmm I dont think that cutting a guys head off and making your movment internationally dispised is the best way to go, seems a little counter productive.

[struct]

colombiano, please. The real and malignant cancer is the U.$. These Islamic "terrorists" are more or less a common cold.

[antieverything]

Um...this topic should be, in the words of Strongbad, DELETED!!!

[struct]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 04:50 PM
Um...this topic should be, in the words of Strongbad, DELETED!!!
...why?

[colombiano]

If one of your friends or a family members had gone there to do a good deed for the Iraqis. By trying to help them rebuild after years of pain and suffering and an unjust war. You would be just as outraged. I suppose maybe I have just to large of a bleeding heart. I know the war was for $$ and Oil and that it was unjust cause inflicted upon them in the name of "freedom" but all human life is precious and should be treated with respect. The same could be said about the US bombing civilians.I suppose we should just agree to disagree. I also don't want anyone here to think that I am happy and content with imperialism, because I lexperienced the hardships of imperialism. I see poverty all the time and I believe in Social Justice and the well being of all Men.

[James]

an alliance?
Personally, the enemy of my enemy is not my friend.

I don't think the two extreme philosophies (communism + Islam) allow for friendship

[karma-cola]

The islamic people were a proud people
who live in their own world and were content with their lives

Then towards the end of the 19th century
Imperliam kicked in?
Thats when problems started

MOst of the major problems in this world
are creation of imperlists

Palestine-the british had a role in its creation

Jammu and kasmir-thanks again to the britishers

The whole continent of africa is in turmoil-thanks to europeans


A tree has to be allowed to grow in its natural shape

But if the gardener trims it to suit his own taste
Then the branches stop growing in a natural way
and the tree becomes sick because
its leaves do not grow properly and get proper sunlight and rot etcetc

Two civilizations have been wiped out from the place of planet earth
The aborogines who were classified as animals till the 1960's
by the australian settlers

and the red indians who were a magnificient race of people

you know who did this??

next on the list of imperliasts is the middle east.

They are fighting for survival



have you seen the movie frankestein?

Americas has created the frankestein called islamic fundamentalism

The CIA is the worlds largest terrorist organisation

American companies and american foreign policy has caused millions to die
in the name of preserving the american way of life.

Just because you see one american beheaded you should not get emotional

What about the thousands of voiceless people who died even horrible deaths

Example:-Though not political but its about american companies

Union carbide set up a factory in India
Then gas leak happens due to carelessness

1000's die their lungs get melted ,their blood oozes out of their eyes ,noses
They fall on the ground and roll in their puke and shit
Then after struggling for a good twenty minutes they die

The next generation is born mutated with horrfying deformities

The suffering continues even today

And what happens American companies throws money on the face of
the government and people and the company lives and its ceo lives happily
ever after

to kill another day

Americans companies are raping my mother "Earth"

Americans are monsters.America is the land of monsters

Personally I think beheading is a slow process
Somebody give these islamic fundamentalists Nukes :rolleyes:

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 04:43 PM
I do not wish to engage in a pissing contest of what caused the problem . I know of the grave injustices done by my country. I do not agree with foreign policy of this and previous administrations, however the problem is there and sitting around pointing fingers will do no good. Action needs to be taken and this cancer must be destroyed . The people must unite as one and create a better world for mankind. I agree with all of you about how the problem began but as humans we must rid ourselves of these monsters.Then and only then can we talk of a socialist utopia.
As it seems Bush's "War on Terror" has only led to more popularity for Fundamentalism, especially Christian and Muslim. The torturers of Iraqi's justify their acts with Christianity, just like groups like Al'Qaida justifty their acts using Allah. Yet I do not see you complain about Christian Fundamentalism.

The thousands of innoncent civilians that have been killed in Iraq, Afganistan due to US brutality - what do you think that the reaction of their family and friends is. "Hail, I love America now even more!" Just like you, they are seeking revenge - turning themselves in blind, killing machines - loosing reality. It really doesn't matter whetever you are a Coalition or Iraqi killing machine, the fact stands that you're only increasing the problem, not reducing it. Killing is not the answer.

[colombiano]

Originally posted by Non-Sectarian Bastard!+May 13 2004, 05:25 PM--> (Non-Sectarian Bastard! @ May 13 2004, 05:25 PM)
[email protected] 13 2004, 04:43 PM
I do not wish to engage in a pissing contest of what caused the problem . I know of the grave injustices done by my country. I do not agree with foreign policy of this and previous administrations, however the problem is there and sitting around pointing fingers will do no good. Action needs to be taken and this cancer must be destroyed . The people must unite as one and create a better world for mankind. I agree with all of you about how the problem began but as humans we must rid ourselves of these monsters.Then and only then can we talk of a socialist utopia.
As it seems Bush's "War on Terror" has only led to more popularity for Fundamentalism, especially Christian and Muslim. The torturers of Iraqi's justify their acts with Christianity, just like groups like Al'Qaida justifty their acts using Allah. Yet I do not see you complain about Christian Fundamentalism.

The thousands of innoncent civilians that have been killed in Iraq, Afganistan due to US brutality - what do you think that the reaction of their family and friends is. "Hail, I love America now even more!" Just like you, they are seeking revenge - turning themselves in blind, killing machines - loosing reality. It really doesn't matter whetever you are a Coalition or Iraqi killing machine, the fact stands that you're only increasing the problem, not reducing it. [/b]
"Killing is not the answer."Well made point! After time to cool down think and be rational I agree.

[struct]

"We are advocates of the abolition of war, we do not want war; but war can only be abolished through war, and in order to get rid of the gun it is necessary to take up the gun."

--Mao Tse-Tung

[struct]

A glimpse of the real world:

[Tchuncly]

man, I'm sorry to tell you but the real cancer of the world is your dear country USA...do you really think they attack the USA because they are bad, because they want to bring terror?
i see your nickname...are you from colombia or have some relatives there?? well, nevermind...but have you heard of terrorists attacking colombia? attacking argentina? attacking Brazil? or attacking Somalia, Zimbabwe? have you??
YOUR dear country has been always making imperialist wars and cover that up by saying that they are bringing freedom to other people...do you know about Latin America history? if you study that you will see that, just like Fulgencio Batista's dictatorial government, many other countries had this kind of government, including mine (Brazil)...and it was ALL suported by the USA, did you know? yes, they were bringing freedom to us by torturing everybody that opposed them...hm...does that remind you of Iraq???

the problem of americans is that they doesn't understant what's a war! Maybe because there has never been a war inside your country...but YOU must learn that in a war you sometimes WIN and sometimes you LOSE..sometimes you ATTACK, sometimes you are attacked...so, you attacked them, they attack you! understood?
I know there's a lot of americans here, and I'm sorry for what I'm going to say, but IF (I said IF) someone must die, these are not the muslims but the americans...

in a few words: while americans keep thinking like you are (WE MUST KILL THEM), terrorists won't stop attacking, since they attack BECAUSE you keep making war at their homes...you see, it's a cycle that will never end untill you people understand and change your minds

follow the example of the Spanish prime minister, get OUT of the war, and mind your own business, and you'll see things will get better for you...

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 05:44 PM
"We are advocates of the abolition of war, we do not want war; but war can only be abolished through war, and in order to get rid of the gun it is necessary to take up the gun."

--Mao Tse-Tung
Mao was a fool, and murderer, I suggest that you read a little Marxism, then compair it to Maoism, and ask your self where your loyalties lie.

[VincentValentine]

One less american is one step closer to a world in peace.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 07:42 PM
One less american is one step closer to a world in peace.
How very nice... so we socialists are now supposed to preach genocide in the US, fantastic.

:rolleyes:

[Tchuncly]

Originally posted by Enigma+May 13 2004, 07:48 PM--> (Enigma @ May 13 2004, 07:48 PM)
[email protected] 13 2004, 07:42 PM
One less american is one step closer to a world in peace.
How very nice... so we socialists are now supposed to preach genocide in the US, fantastic.

:rolleyes: [/b]
maybe :lol:

[VincentValentine]

what I mean to say is:

One less american military personnel is one step closer to a world in peace.

Im not one of those stupid socialists, im an ardent communist, far left for me not semi half arsed left wing. :D :lol:

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 08:09 PM
what I mean to say is:

One less american military personnel is one step closer to a world in peace.

Im not one of those stupid socialists, im an ardent communist, far left for me not semi half arsed left wing. :D :lol:
Ok, I get ya!

But just one more thing, that guy was not a military personnel, I believe (from what I read) he cleaned and repaired communication towers, as a civillian.

[Take the Power back]

We should not be supportive of either side in this case. Without the history of Imperialism, coups, and general oppression, this would not happen. But, think about what kind of government these people want. A religion based government that encourages violence against women (especially to avoid disgrace) and extreme violence for petty crimes. I cannot take sides in this.

[Tchuncly]

Originally posted by Take the Power [email protected] 13 2004, 08:58 PM
We should not be supportive of either side in this case. Without the history of Imperialism, coups, and general oppression, this would not happen. But, think about what kind of government these people want. A religion based government that encourages violence against women (especially to avoid disgrace) and extreme violence for petty crimes. I cannot take sides in this.
man, do you even know if the women there dislike this???
if they are unsactisfied, they can make their revolution and change things themselves...

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

I don't care what their motive was but beheading a POW with a knife is unhumane

[Tchuncly]

Originally posted by el-[email protected] 13 2004, 09:11 PM
I don't care what their motive was but beheading a POW with a knife is unhumane
what goes around comes around

[James]

I think you are a muppet.

[VincentValentine]

Personally I would have shot him in the back of the head but I guess each person has their own preferance.

[The idealist]

It is the inhumane moslems that make the headlines, headlines broadcasted by GUESS WHO?
If my choice lay between islam and capitalisme islam would be the answer, but violence spawns violence, and the only way for one of the sides to finish their conflict is if one of them eradicated each other, neither pleases.
It is only the negative sides of islam we see on tv. As far as I know, the suppression of women is not part of the islamic beleifs, and those who do it are doing it for their own reasons. The same with not eating pork and walking with the headscarf.
They are only traditions, but have been closely connected with the religion. This is where some wannabe islamist make mistakes. I can understand both. Pork rots faster than most other meats in the desert and therefor they do not eat it (I don't eat rot either). As for the headscarves, it is another tradition. The problem is that ignorant people enact scarf bans to stop the women from being forced into wearing them. In france now, they are forcing women not to wear scarves, even if they want to. Is that not suppression? If a man made his kids run round the house five times before going to school every (only an example :D ) day it would be stupid and possibly cruel thing, but it should not make the gov't forbid running round houses in a clockwise direction. Traditions may be absurd, but one should not forbid them.

Personally I would rather point my face towards mekka and pray rather than be under the heal of capitalist oppressors.

Anybody get my point?

[Take the Power back]

What about the recent story of the man who strangled his daughter with a wire, with help from relatives, even having to fight through her crying and struggling, because she was raped? This man was not a member of any extremist faction, just an ordinary person. But his "tradition" allowed him to kill her? This is barbaric. What about the Iranian celebrity who kissed a man in public, and because they are not married, she was sentenced to being stoned to death. I am not sure, but I believe this case has not been finished yet, with strong opposition. The government allowed that sentence, not an extremist faction. It is not fair to say only the real extreme ones are those who have these traditions. And, there are numerous woman's groups in the middle east that oppose these things, but there is only so much you can do when you face being stoned to death because of your opposition to these "traditions". I am not anti-Islamic in any way, shape, or form. But I am anti-extreme fundementalist traditions.

EDIT: I have more to say. I realize that I used women as an example, but the sentences that are imposed for petty crimes are crazy: Lose a hand for stealing? If he is stealing food, or even jewelry, chances are he is hungry, and needs to eat. Food is eaten, jewelry is sold for money. Give him the chance to survive on an honest living, do not chop off his hand. And, with this beheading, comes even more violence. From both sides. Expect more "accidental" bombings by the U$ in the coming weeks. Look for the photo scandel to make back-page news soon (it has in my local paper). The fact that the man was a civilian will make public out cry even stronger. If these people think one hostage death will change the stance on Iraq, then they have the wrong idea. Major force, Fallugah style, needs to be done. Fighting the imperialist army takes vietnam guerilla style tactics, not hostage taking.

[Salvador Allende]

my enemy is the Capitalist greed and Imperialism of the U$. Mao also said that "we should oppose what the enemy stands for and stand for what the enemy opposes." he also said something to the effect of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." and "When the entire world is your enemy, you must side with the lesser threat.". The Islamic fundamentalists are also my enemy, but they pose less of a threat to me and thus they are as much as friends to most of this board and in a way to me.

[Tchuncly]

Lose a hand for stealing? If he is stealing food, or even jewelry, chances are he is hungry, and needs to eat. Food is eaten, jewelry is sold for money. Give him the chance to survive on an honest living, do not chop off his hand.

what the fuck are you talking about man??
USA has death penalty for some prisoners...not using stones but using electricity, or lethal injections, and YES the GOVERNMENT supports that! :roll:
man...it's really increadible how you see only your side...you are the good guys, the others are the bad ones..

I'll repeat, if the people there are indignant because of this situation, they can take care of themselves!

and just as you feel angry because women there must use lots of clothes, they may (and probably do) get angry because women in the West use lack of clothes...then they should start attacking us because we are not taking care of our women, they are going to hell because of that, etc...
I bet you would not like to see your country attacked by muslims under the excuse of SAVING YOUR WOMEN FROM GOING TO HELL..or would you?
forget that bullshit that you are the good guys of the world... ¬¬'

[Salvador Allende]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 07:21 PM
Mao was a fool, and murderer, I suggest that you read a little Marxism, then compair it to Maoism, and ask your self where your loyalties lie.
Mao was certainly not a murderer. He is the only person after Lenin to have truly followed Marxism-Leninism. I suppose you side with Khruschovists and their dictatorship OVER the proletariat? Maoism is based on the idea that the people are the basis for everything and their will ultimately succeeds. It also is based on the principle of being true to the people. If you do not agree with those ideas, then you yourself are not a true Marxist.

Mao recovered the Chinese economy from nearly 30 years of warfare and also enacted the Thousand Flower Campaign, giving freedom of speech and open forums for political debate. Mao believed in approaching ideas from all sides before making a decision. He also made sure his troops didn't hurt or steal anything from the people, unlike Kaishek. He also managed to capture Kai-Shek, but released him and gave him another chance before finally defeating him after Kai-Shek betrayed Mao. Mao was certainly the closest person to following the ideals and beliefs of Marxism-Leninism and also corrected Lenin's mistaken idea that the revolution had to come from the urban working class and said it could come from any working class as long as they were the proletariat.

[dark fairy]

sorry but i don't have time to read what everyone wrote... but i am an American born and raised and i feel that this isn't all that... we've fucked over more countries and this should be like a pinch... but indeed to the family i isn't but this is war and "they" will get you where it hurts and if that hurt us then well i guess they did their job... but damn people are taking this way too far up the ass it is barbaric but these are humans what do we expect!

[pandora]

This is a horrible thing and is the fault of what has been happening in prisons in Bagdad, as an invader the US should leave so no more innocent people are harmed.
I feel bad for this man and his family, he was probably ignorant as to the danger he was putting himself in.
I also feel great sadness for the other people in Iraqi prisons who were harmed. Two wrongs don't make a right.
At the risk of sounding ridiculous: people need to stop living by violence and live by love

[karma-cola]

This thread is ridiculous

I think there are 4 threads on american being beheaded in this forum
C'mon guys its no big deal

one american dead is one step closer to world peace and prosperity

we have a long march ahead of us

[BuyOurEverything]

Just because Islam is less of a threat to us, doesn't mean it's any better. Anyone who supports Islamic fundamentalists deserves to be shot.

The US does not hate Islamic fundamentalists, in all likelyhood they love them. They make hella mean villains and give them a great excuse to invade whatever the fuck arab country they want.

[Tchuncly]

oooooooooooooooooooohhh man is it that difficult to understand that it was the UNITED STATES that started everything?
what the fuck!!

it was not the Islamic fundamentalists that gave the great excuse to invade whatever the fuck arab country they want...
BUT IT WAS THE USA THAT GAVE A GREAT EXCUSE FOR ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISTS TO DO WHATEVER THEY WANT TO DO WITH THE USA AND AMERICANS, AND THAT INCLUDES TERRORISM, BEHEADING, ETC!!!

fuck, understand that USA started the war, and learn to accept the loses!
and when I say that the USA started the war, I'm not saying the war in Iraq...it is a war much older than the FIRST gulf war...

[Urban Rubble]

I haven't read much of this thread, I just need to make a few comments.


our enemy is capitalism, without capitalism there is no funndamentalism, look deep into the problem.

Fundamentalism is a reaction against the brutality of capitalism and imperialism, if we end capitalism, all these horrors such as Bush, Sharon, Blair, Bin Laden etc all go away.

Remember, the CIA started Al Quaideh and Bin Laden against the USSR in Afghanastan

Kez, this is one of the stupidest things I've ever seen written on this board.

Do you honestly believe there was no religious fundementalism before Capitalism ? Jesus Christ, you amaze me.



This thread is ridiculous

I think there are 4 threads on american being beheaded in this forum
C'mon guys its no big deal

one american dead is one step closer to world peace and prosperity

we have a long march ahead of us

How many times do I have to explain do you dumb little pricks ? Even if you support the resistance, beheading that guy only hurt their cause. Are you aware of how the U.S deals with this kind of shit ? MORE BOMBS YOU DUMBFUCK. This kind of torture is only perpetuating a war.



oooooooooooooooooooohhh man is it that difficult to understand that it was the UNITED STATES that started everything?
what the fuck!!

So that means it's O.K to cut a civilian's head off with a knife ? Torture is wrong no matter who is on the receiving end.


fuck, understand that USA started the war, and learn to accept the loses!
and when I say that the USA started the war, I'm not saying the war in Iraq...it is a war much older than the FIRST gulf war...

Do you have any concept at all of how wars are fought ? These kinds of attrocities can only have 1 result, they will fuel the hatred and keep both sides fighting. Killing American soldiers in battle is one thing, but torturing innocent civilians is sickening. And the fact that you support means you are a subuman dog whom, most likely, deserves to be put against a wall himself.

Take that Hammer and Sickle out of your avatar.

[karma-cola]

QUOTE
This thread is ridiculous

I think there are 4 threads on american being beheaded in this forum
C'mon guys its no big deal

one american dead is one step closer to world peace and prosperity

we have a long march ahead of us



How many times do I have to explain do you dumb little pricks ? Even if you support the resistance, beheading that guy only hurt their cause. Are you aware of how the U.S deals with this kind of shit ? MORE BOMBS YOU DUMBFUCK. This kind of torture is only perpetuating a war.

Look the war has moved on to a pyscological plane

Its now being fought in the mind

thats why all this beheading etc

Both the americans and mujhaideen are DUMBFUCKERS

[Hodgo]

I dont post here often, but I think its worth saying that the handful who've posted in this thread, saying stuff like "he got what he deserved; what goes around comes around" and "one more dead American is one step closer to world peace", should keep in mind that he was a civilian, who went to Iraq independently, and most likely genuinely went there with the intention of helping Iraqi's rebuild their country. He wasnt even part of a large multinational organization, he just ran a small company, and had nothing to gain from a business standpoint by going to Iraq.

You should also watch the decapitation (http://www.ogrish.com/index2.htm) itself before commenting. Especially the stupid prick who said we shouldnt get so emotional, because its just "one American". This wasnt a legit act of resistance; it wasnt an act of resistance of ANY KIND; resistance is being out on the streets, yanno, fighting the actual occupation itself. It is NOT a bunch of depraved pissants ganging up on, kidnapping, and slowly sawing the head off of a civilian because of his race.

OF COURSE Americas foreign policies are bullshit, you're not moving the argument any further by pointing that out, the kind of people who post here are generally the kind of people who are against US policy to begin with.

And Colombiano, I dont agree that Islamic fundamentalism should be "smashed" by force; I think thats impossible, you cant launch a war on an idea and win. I think they'd be better off if they stopped bombing impoverished middle eastern countries, increased aid, withdrew support for Israel until they promised to stop raids in heavily populated areas and pull back from Gaza and the West Bank, basically if they just stopped fucking the middle east in the arse. It's sufficiently harder to talk somebody into strapping a bomb to his chest or taking up arms against the 'infidels' if he has a job, a house with running water and electricity, sewage treatment, a car and the ability to feed his kids, than if he's had his family killed in raids, or his house bulldozed, or if he's living like shit while foreigners come in, staying in resorts and eating in resteraunts that he, in his own country, will never see the inside of, because he doesnt have the money.

Plus, for every terrorist you kill there'll always be guys who'll be more than happy to take their place. I still agree with the general position of the thread though, the people who did this dont even deserve to be called animals, they're lower than shit.

edit: sorry, just realised the link to the video has already been posted in opposing ideologies.

[Comrade BNS]

I understand what you are saying but what type of government do you think these people want? The fought the Soviets in Afganistan. The rule by fear they repress women . If capitalism is gone there will be a new enemy in the name of Allah.I have Socialist beliefs and basic Human rights. These people have no regard for Human rights or Human life.

I believe in Social Justice but NOT at the hands of Bin Laden and his henchmen! Just remember that if you do Not ride with them (Islamic Fundamenalists) then you could very well be their next victim. If you do not share their faith you are their enemy.

I do not wish to engage in a pissing contest of what caused the problem . I know of the grave injustices done by my country. I do not agree with foreign policy of this and previous administrations, however the problem is there and sitting around pointing fingers will do no good. Action needs to be taken and this cancer must be destroyed . The people must unite as one and create a better world for mankind. I agree with all of you about how the problem began but as humans we must rid ourselves of these monsters.Then and only then can we talk of a socialist utopia.


"These people have no regard for Humar Rights or Human Life...", apparently neither do you.


I find amazing how anything involving the middle east or Islam seems to bring all the Islamic "experts" out of the woodwork! with mendacious truths such as "muslims believe..." and "Islam is...".....well let me say, almost everything coined already about the "religion of peace" (thus named because the word Islam is based on the word Salam, which in arabic means peace) has been a complete joke, a huge flag over people's general air of ignorance!


I am not anti-Islamic in any way, shape, or form.
perhaps except in those ways, shapes and forms that you are?


think about what kind of government these people want. A religion based government that encourages violence against women (especially to avoid disgrace) and extreme violence for petty crimes. I cannot take sides in this

No i couldn't side with this either, which is exactly why i am supporting the sovereign constitution of the Iraqi people, because it includes none of the above. Stop pontificating on things you think you know about, because you obviously know nothing about this. If you don't know about something, it is best not to pontificate or make absolute statements, because somebody who does know is always bound to correct you.


"What about the recent story of the man who strangled his daughter with a wire, with help from relatives, even having to fight through her crying and struggling, because she was raped? This man was not a member of any extremist faction, just an ordinary person. But his "tradition" allowed him to kill her? This is barbaric. What about the Iranian celebrity who kissed a man in public, and because they are not married, she was sentenced to being stoned to death. I am not sure, but I believe this case has not been finished yet, with strong opposition. The government allowed that sentence, not an extremist faction. It is not fair to say only the real extreme ones are those who have these traditions. And, there are numerous woman's groups in the middle east that oppose these things, but there is only so much you can do when you face being stoned to death because of your opposition to these "traditions".

What about the FREE, HIGH QUALITY, COMPREHENSIVE, health care and education given to ALL citizens of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Kuwait, because it is a tradition and tenant of Islam. Stop using narrowly scoped incidents to support your bullshit ignorant claims. Yes Islamic fundamentalism exists. Yes it has been the cause of alot of Bastardry. But NO it does not represent the majority. Just as the majority of people here denounce Mao, whilst others support him, so is the case for Mohammed ibn Wahab and Grand Ayatollah Khomeini in the Arab world.


"It is only the negative sides of islam we see on tv. As far as I know, the suppression of women is not part of the islamic beleifs, and those who do it are doing it for their own reasons. The same with not eating pork and walking with the headscarf.
They are only traditions, but have been closely connected with the religion. This is where some wannabe islamist make mistakes. I can understand both. Pork rots faster than most other meats in the desert and therefor they do not eat it (I don't eat rot either). As for the headscarves, it is another tradition."

Here it seems we have another social expert on Islam. You are on the right track mr/ms expert, but still a long way off. You are correct in saying the suppression of women is definately not a part of Islam. It is a local custom, promoted by power hungry ultra conservatives. And now for a study in demographics. On review of Pakistan,(The Israel of the Islamic world) it can be seen that it has had several eminent FEMALE politicians, one of whom was the president of the country. Upper class men and women alike practice sectarian Islam, free of beatings, veils and Anti-US sermons from the pulpit. However about 80% of the population of Pakistan say that women should be veiled, believe in violence against women, and want president Musharraf removed for being pro-US. It is not supprising to note also that 76% of Pakistani's live in squalid conditions.

and on a purely theological note, the abstinence from Pork is certainly not a "tradition", and it would gravely offend any Muslim to hear you say so! It is a Qu'ranic intervention that all believers are forbidden to "eat the flesh of Swine, carrion or that with running blood. Unless one is in dire need..."

It seems to me that most people here have read the "michael moore" version of Islamic theology and history. Not one person previous has been able to put forward anything remotely credible or insightful into Islamic and Arab culture, identity and history.

and the killing of this American "civillian" out to do a "good deed" (aww what a good little imperialist, out to further the empire's cause!) matters little. He was agitating both against Islamic rebel groups in the country, and also trying to blindly economically exploit the Iraqi people. So let me tell you, had "Al -Qaeda" operatives not killed him, the Intil army (socialists) would have probably captured him anyway.

Comrade BNS

[Kez]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 14 2004, 07:02 AM
I haven't read much of this thread, I just need to make a few comments.


our enemy is capitalism, without capitalism there is no funndamentalism, look deep into the problem.

Fundamentalism is a reaction against the brutality of capitalism and imperialism, if we end capitalism, all these horrors such as Bush, Sharon, Blair, Bin Laden etc all go away.

Remember, the CIA started Al Quaideh and Bin Laden against the USSR in Afghanastan

Kez, this is one of the stupidest things I've ever seen written on this board.

Do you honestly believe there was no religious fundementalism before Capitalism ? Jesus Christ, you amaze me.

did i state that?
answer me if i did, if i didnt, you should retract your comment.

[abigratsass]

i hate this!!! yes islamic and to be more specfic arab countries are fucked up!!!
but thats basically not our fault we have been occupied for hundreds of years ,exploited,suppressed and subjected to all kinds of bullshit from imperilist scum from the west!! wut do you think that will lead to a nation with high moral foundations ,womens rights,human rights!! alll these things orginate from years of education to generationa after anthor and we didnt have that!!
when we werent under occuption and actually followed islamic laws( for a brief time in history) we were more advanced than europe ,way more advanced!!

i dont understand wut you want , ddo you want us tyo welcome you to occupie us and take our resources and while were at it scream supermacy to the aryan race!!!

im a muslim women , im not vailed ,and i do watever i want , i wear what i want and defiatly speak out my mind!!!
and my parents are fairly religious people but the never forced me to do anything i dont want ,not even pray or anything

i hate my goverment that your goverment supports and im definatly from the left and will support my belifs to the end!!

so stop stereotyping my people according to insane few that your goverment made such as bin laden cause you nothing about us and as HUMAN BEINGS WE DESERVE BETTER!!!!

[James]

did i state that?
answer me if i did, if i didnt, you should retract your comment.

Well you stated:

"without capitalism there is no funndamentalism, look deep into the problem."


I noticed you didn't answer my question.
Retract comments? Says YOU?



no, no, no - Kamo, you are a very silly boy. Fundamentalism is just believing in something strongly. I fail to see how there being no capitalism would mean people wouldn't believe in certain things strongly.

Silly boy.

[Kez]

because Fundamentalism today is a reaction against the symtoms/consequences of capitalism eg imperialism in iraq has only served to increased fundamentalism. Note how there was no fuundamentalism in USSR, but as soon as tehre was a capitalist russia there was fundamentalism growing in chechnya, the same for Azerbaijan/Armenia conflict.

[FistFullOfSteel]

Ive seen the full video,yuck :wacko:

[Louis Pio]

As Kez stated Fundamentalism today is a reaction against the consequences of imperialism.
The whole thing is just that it don't provide any answers, some fundamentalists want a return to a Islamic kalifat (dunno the english word) which are a Islamic nation with one ruler - the kalif. Others just want a reactionary islamic rule. In many countries fundamentalism has been used by the imperialists against workers/socialist movement, for example Pakistan, Afghanistan etc etc.

These articles on fundamentalism is written by a pakistani marxist. In Pakistan marxists and tradeunion activists always face the threat of being killed by the fundamentalists (who are of course backed by wealthy people)
The Menace of Islamic Fundamentalism and the Hypocrisy of Imperialism (http://www.marxist.com/Asia/islamic_fund_ism1100.html)
Fundamentalist Resurgence: Causes and Prospects (http://www.marxist.com/Asia/fundamentalism.html)

[Tchuncly]

oooooooooooooooooooohhh man is it that difficult to understand that it was the UNITED STATES that started everything?
what the fuck!!

So that means it's O.K to cut a civilian's head off with a knife ? Torture is wrong no matter who is on the receiving end.

no, what I mean is I'm not some kind of Jesus that offer the other side of the face when someone slaps it...
US attack Iraq, destroy houses, public buildings, KILL civilians (oh yes, they kill civilians, but this side of the facts you do not see, do you?)...about 9.000 civilians murdered in Iraq, I think...and that's ok simply because it was the US who killed 9.000 civilians...but now, when 1 american dies, it is the biggest tragedy on the world, and Iraqis deserve death...
I do not like war, I guess nobody does, but that doesn't mean I would accept everything, just like Jesus did, doing nothing, just saying PEACE, LET'S NOT FIGHT...


Do you have any concept at all of how wars are fought ?

Do you? Did you know Israel is the biggest enemy of the palestinians? and did you know that the USA supports the Israli army? and do you know since when do they do that? before that there was no hate from muslims towards the USA...so now, who started everything?


These kinds of attrocities can only have 1 result, they will fuel the hatred and keep both sides fighting.

oh yes, let's tell them: STOP FIGHTING, YOU WILL JUST KEEP BOTH SIDES FIGHTING, QUIT FIGHTING, THE WAR ENDS AND THE U.S. DOMINATES US...pretty good, eh?
also let's go back to 1959 and let's tell Che, Fidel and everybody there STOP FIGHTING, MY FRIENDS, DO NOT MAKE WAR, ACCEPT THE DOMINATION... :unsure:

[guerrillaradio]

Supporting one side or the other isn't really the issue. If you ask me, the issue is that the common man, be he some arrogant, "adventurous", money-driven Yank helping the colonialists (I mean peacekeepers) in Iraq or random Iraqis pulled off the streets and thrown in Abu Ghraib, will be the fuckin loser here, caught in the middle of two extremist factions.

[Urban Rubble]

did i state that?
answer me if i did, if i didnt, you should retract your comment.

You said:
without capitalism there is no funndamentalism.

So, yeah, you did say that.


no, what I mean is I'm not some kind of Jesus that offer the other side of the face when someone slaps it...
US attack Iraq, destroy houses, public buildings, KILL civilians (oh yes, they kill civilians, but this side of the facts you do not see, do you?)...about 9.000 civilians murdered in Iraq, I think...and that's ok simply because it was the US who killed 9.000 civilians...but now, when 1 american dies, it is the biggest tragedy on the world, and Iraqis deserve death...

Wow, I can hardly even understand this gibberish.

I never said the Iraqis deserve death, you douche.


Do you? Did you know Israel is the biggest enemy of the palestinians? and did you know that the USA supports the Israli army? and do you know since when do they do that? before that there was no hate from muslims towards the USA...so now, who started everything?

I know all of that, what the fuck was the point of posting that ?

And Muslims hated the U.S long before Israel.


oh yes, let's tell them: STOP FIGHTING, YOU WILL JUST KEEP BOTH SIDES FIGHTING, QUIT FIGHTING, THE WAR ENDS AND THE U.S. DOMINATES US...pretty good, eh?
also let's go back to 1959 and let's tell Che, Fidel and everybody there STOP FIGHTING, MY FRIENDS, DO NOT MAKE WAR, ACCEPT THE DOMINATION...

Che and Fidel never torured anyone, you fool.

Cutting someone's head off is not fighting, it is torutre. It is intended to intimidate. It is terrorism.

You've got to be kidding me, is that the best you can do ?

[Tchuncly]

And Muslims hated the U.S long before Israel.

are you sure? <_<



Cutting someone&#39;s head off is not fighting, it is torutre. It is intended to intimidate. It is terrorism.

did you read about the americans who tortured the prisoners in Iraq?
do I need to say something else?
those who cut that american&#39;s head said very clearly that they would do that because of what americans did to the prisoners (probably America&#39;s Media did not publish that, so I don&#39;t blame you if you don&#39;t know it <_< )...and here comes again what I&#39;ve said: What goes around comes around...

let me see if I got your point...killing is not the problem, the problem is torturing? then if they had shot that american in the head, there would be no problem...
well, i bet that if they had done that (shot the american in the head) you would say OH MY GOD IT&#39;S A HUMAN LIFE, THEY ARE TERRORISTS...
terrorism has become an excuse for imperialist acts...put it in your mind, this wouldn&#39;t be happening if the U.S. hadn&#39;t invaded that country...
if you don&#39;t want that to happen again, do something to get your army out of there...otherwise, while you kill Iraqi, americans will be killed too..after all, it&#39;s a war...

By the way, i&#39;ve read that even that american&#39;s family have said that they do not blame that Iraqi, they blame their own country, because they know that what happened is their own government fault...it really surprised me to see that there are some americans that are not that blind&#33;

[Subversive Pessimist]

Struct, can you give me the link to that picture? I want to show it to some people.

[Take the Power back]

A few of you make it out to sound like I am being one-sided. I am not trying to be, but I am expressing my views on this type of situation. I have my views about our constant use of the death penalty, and drug laws in the US, too. I would like to think that I know something, but according to some, I do not. I can only learn more.

[Valkyrie]

Thank you Guerilla Radio, for some much needed objective rationalism.
I couldn&#39;t agree more.

[James]

As Kez stated Fundamentalism today is a reaction against the consequences of imperialism.


Ok, get a dictionary - and look the word up.

You are talking shit mate.

[struct]

justice: The URL is http://www.mrdowling.com/611starving.jpg.

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by Take the Power [email protected] 14 2004, 09:11 PM
A few of you make it out to sound like I am being one-sided. I am not trying to be, but I am expressing my views on this type of situation. I have my views about our constant use of the death penalty, and drug laws in the US, too. I would like to think that I know something, but according to some, I do not. I can only learn more.
You say that it is wrong for a person to be executed for committing the act(s) of promiscuity (in your previous post). But you must see that a number of people see that this crime, and other crimes deserve such a punishment. I think your political consciousness has been hijacked by U.S. liberals.. For example, would you cheat on your girlfiend? would you murder someone?

These things are nothing to do with the left wing. The left wing is concerned with being passionate and caring for others, and creating a positive and tolerant human nature.

[Agent provocateur]

Pardon me if I play the devil&#39;s advocate here but this terrorist who did not decapitating--- what balls&#33; The man is surely insane but what balls&#33;

[antieverything]

Why do I think this should be deleted?


I just finished watching that barbaric display by those f%#&#036;@^ ANIMALS&#33;&#33; IT IS TIME FOR THE WHOLE WORLD TO UNITE. CAPITALIST, SOCIALISTS AND COMMUNISTS, CHRISTIANS, JEWS , ATHEISTS......... AND ERADICATE THE WORLD OF ISLAMIC FUNDAMENALISTS&#33; THESE PEOPLE NO NOTHING BUT ANGER AND HATE. THEY ARE MONSTERS THAT SHOULD BE DESTROYED&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;I am an American with leftist views and these people who fight everyone in the name of Allah are the cancer of the world&#33; Perhaps we should all unite as we did in WW2 and destroy the people who wish to destroy mankind&#33;
Do I need any more explanation, really?

[Kez]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 14 2004, 07:15 PM

did i state that?
answer me if i did, if i didnt, you should retract your comment.

You said:
without capitalism there is no funndamentalism.

So, yeah, you did say that.
Are you saying theres some sort of possibility of going back to feudalism from capitalism?

[James]

more importantly, are you suggesting that if we did go back - then there would be no fundamentalism?

[Kez]

im suggesting it is near impossible to back. So my comment was for all intents are purposes correct.

The only example i can think of is afghanastan, but even that wasnt capitalist, and at the end it wasnt feudalist (just a bunch of war mongering nutter tribes).

So the question is, can a state go back from capitalism to feudalism?

And if it cannot, then the statement was true, that without capitalism there would be no fundamentalism, therefore the only way to destory fundamentalism is to smash capitalism.

[James]

Do you think fundamentalism would cease to exist if there was no capitalism?

[Kez]

yes, as when there is no capitalism, the only other options would be Socialism, therefore no fundamentalism. Also, if we were to take an anarchists point of view, that we could go from capitalism to anarchism, there would still be no fundamentalism.

[James]

I think your confused as to what the word actually means.
I suggest you look it up in a proper dictionary.

[Valkyrie]

Sure there woud be Kez. Because of a little place called "Dome of the Rock"
that gives fuel to both Christian Fundamentalism, Zionism, and Muslim fundamentalism. It&#39;s more than 50% the cause of the conflict between the Palestianians and the Jews in the Middle East.

excuse the source:" http://www.meforum.org/article/10

http://www.netours.com/2003/domeofrock.htm



http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early_pal...e_jerusalem.php (http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early_palestine_jerusalem.php)http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/wallname.html

http://www.levitt.com/slideshow/s01p08.html

[Kez]

James youve used the "look in the dictionary" phrase about 10 times in the last week to various people, its boring, how about you give us your skewed version and enlighten us...

Valkyrie,
Why was it that under the Soviet Union despite having so many important Christian and Muslim places there was never fundamentalism.
Fundamentalism only arises when people see it as a solution to their problems, but if you take these problems away in the first place, then surely there wont be people to turn to alternative paths (as in fundamentalism)

For example, it is in Israeli interests to have more land, so they forced palestinians out of their traditional homes and gave it to Jewish settlers. This land was for the ruling class&#39; interests.
As a reaction, you have islamic groups saying that the problem is these "jews" (as in the whole lot of them) and its US backers, when clearly the only groups at fault are the israeli ruling class.

If we take the ruling class out altogether, surely this vile fundamentalism will have no fertile ground to breed upon?

Lets look again at the USSR, when it started making market reforms in the Southern caucauses, there began tensions about jobs and lands and so on in Azerbaijan. The result was pogroms from both the Azeri and Armenian side. A jihad was called. Again we see how fundamentalism grows when capitalism fucks up in one of its many cycles.
If we take this crisis points out, surely fundamentalism wouldnt grow?

So what is my point?
My point is the dome of the rock would be irrelevant, because it would no longer be a point for fundamentalists to rally the workers around, as class consiousness would be great, great enuf to quash tensions between race and religion.

[James]

It is simply someone who believes fiercly in the supremecy of the fundamental teachings of one&#39;s holy book. Coming from fundamental.
One could even say you are a marxist fundamentalist.
Fundamentalists are fanatics; who are basically those who are obsessed, have a zeal - they are religious and political.
You can&#39;t possibly think that just because everyone will have food and be comfortable - philosophy (which is what religion is) will be abandoned.
People will start to look at "what is the meaning of life" again. Most people arn&#39;t content with materialist beliefs - alot look for that something extra - something spiritual.
Religion wouldn&#39;t die if capitalism did (only marxist fundamentalists argue such a thing).


But you will now argue that religion is simply, only a reaction to economic/social hardship: and that i&#39;ve been taken in by the capitalists, and am causing the feet of the left to drag - or something equally as origional.

[Valkyrie]

Kamo
The difference between the Muslim and Christian and Jewish religious places in the USSR as oppossed to the Mid-East is that the Mid-East is the birthplace of all three religions. These temples, Mosques and Walls are the original remains upon the original sites. In a religious fundamentalist sense, what began there--- will end there...fundamentally-- prophecy will be fulfilled. (not my way of thinking, but theirs.)and a bit complicated, but the one main reason the Zionists are there, reclaiming their "homeland" is to rebuild the temple,on the original spot, where part of the temple wall remains, (the wailing or western wall) because they believe it will herald in the coming of the long awaited Jewish messiah (hey, again these are not my beliefs&#33;) and that spot just happens to be on the exact location as the Dome of the Rock, and which Muslims believe that Muhammad ascended to heaven from that rock. Anyway.. The Christians come in because they believe, as the Jews that if the temple is rebuilt than their messiah (Jesus) will make a comeback also. :unsure:

Ideally, getting rid of Capitalism should get rid of these problems or most of them. Will definetely get rid of the ruling class,I agree with that But, it&#39;s more than likely that the extreme fundamentists groups will still be around because religion has its own peculiar agenda. However, since the origins of this conflict are thousands of years old, and many wars have been fought over it, probably getting rid of religion would be more feasable to take care of that problem, which may also take centuries in itself.

[Valkyrie]

By the way. I would settle the matter by appeasing the Jews to build their temple encompassing the Dome of the Rock Mosque. and giving the Muslims Monday,Wed, Fri, 9-5 s at the Mosque and the Jews and Christia,Tues, Thurs, Sat. same time at the Temle. On Sundays someone can come in and do the housekeeping.

Actully, I don&#39;t see what the big problem would be in sharing the spot.

[Kez]

Valkyrie,

"The difference between the Muslim and Christian and Jewish religious places in the USSR as oppossed to the Mid-East is that the Mid-East is the birthplace of all three religions. These temples, Mosques and Walls are the original remains upon the original sites. In a religious fundamentalist sense, what began there--- will end there...fundamentally-- prophecy will be fulfilled. (not my way of thinking, but theirs.)and a bit complicated, but the one main reason the Zionists are there, reclaiming their "homeland" is to rebuild the temple,on the original spot, where part of the temple wall remains, (the wailing or western wall) because they believe it will herald in the coming of the long awaited Jewish messiah (hey, again these are not my beliefs&#33;) and that spot just happens to be on the exact location as the Dome of the Rock, and which Muslims believe that Muhammad ascended to heaven from that rock. Anyway.. The Christians come in because they believe, as the Jews that if the temple is rebuilt than their messiah (Jesus) will make a comeback also."
-Right, interesting facts i didnt know there, thanx
-However, do you not agree, that if capitalism is smashed, then people will not turn to turn to religion to a lesser extent?
-Religion, just like Drink or drugs is something many people turn to to get out of the hellish trap that is life today.
-Lets say we have socialism today in Middle east, what will be the solution to the dome of the rock? im sure there would still be a few fundamentalists (these will take generations to get rid of) however, importantly, these groups will not have the backing to achieve their aims. People will not back the proposals, as they plain wont give a shit, dont you think? this will take time, and the traditions of religion will have to be given time to erode, but this will take place.
EDIT Im sure your proposal would be adopted under a socialist Israeli-Palestinian state

James,
"It is simply someone who believes fiercly in the supremecy of the fundamental teachings of one&#39;s holy book. Coming from fundamental."
-well done, *hands sweety to James*

"One could even say you are a marxist fundamentalist."
-Right, whatever makes your day.

"Fundamentalists are fanatics; who are basically those who are obsessed, have a zeal - they are religious and political."
-Is this your second definition?

"You can&#39;t possibly think that just because everyone will have food and be comfortable - philosophy (which is what religion is) will be abandoned."
-Nope,more people will have more time, so more thought will be given to philosophy.

"People will start to look at "what is the meaning of life" again. Most people arn&#39;t content with materialist beliefs - alot look for that something extra - something spiritual."
-Only when u have the influence of the church there, which is not on an equal platform to athiesm
-People under socialism will also be armed with logic, which smashes the religious argument to pieces, so religious mumbo jumbo will be substituted for real science and discoveries about what mankind really is.

"Religion wouldn&#39;t die if capitalism did (only marxist fundamentalists argue such a thing)."
-Why are people religious? Many turn to it during hardship, and miseducation. for proof look at where poverty is strongest and illiteracy is strongest, and see the correlation with religion. Eg Pakistan, Afghanastan, Bangladesh, Many parts of Africa, Middle east. You look at Europe, compare Ireland with Britain.

"But you will now argue that religion is simply, only a reaction to economic/social hardship: and that i&#39;ve been taken in by the capitalists, and am causing the feet of the left to drag - or something equally as origional. "
Nah, ur not dragging us down, coz your an irrelevant piece of shit, thankfully

[The idealist]

If capitalisme did not exist, then there would still be fundamental groups, but they would not be as militant.
Fundamentalisme is often linked to violence, but this is only when the fundamentalists are provoked. So in a world devout of capitalisme there would be less terrorists and militants.

But there is no helping some people, and there will always be someone who is pissed off, but just not as many. Personally I have nothing against fundamentalists, if they believe strongly in something, then let them. It is fanatic religious militants and people who try to force their religion upon others (jehova&#39;s witnesses really piss me off) that give problems.

Some people don&#39;t need reasons to be violent to do so :ph34r: . Removing capitalisme would remove the reasons for those who do need a reason.

[Valkyrie]

Kamo, I do think that commumism will eliminate most of the current religious conflicts, even the more extreme ones in the Middle-East, as seeing that both Jewish zionism and Islam seem to have a secular nationalist element directed toward self-determination and sovereignity rather than driven by a religious fixation. I think at this point, Zionists in the M.E. have scrapped any plans of rebuilding the Temple because of the radical Christian End-of-world theology pushing for them to so. When communism dissolves border issues and nationalist issues, I think those particular Mid-Eastern problems might just go away with them also. Yes, I can see that happening. I, actually, think the bigger problem might be how to get rid of the ruling class succession of popes. He&#39;s yet ever to have been deposed and seems to have alot of clout among 80% of the world or so. HOw do you think that might be done, without freaking his followers into a murderous revolt?


Just want to add that I can tolerate accepting unorganized non-profit religious practice, but not the unchecked power of the pope or his plunder.

[Kez]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 01:54 AM
Kamo, I do think that commumism will eliminate most of the current religious conflicts, even the more extreme ones in the Middle-East, as seeing that both Jewish zionism and Islam seem to have a secular nationalist element directed toward self-determination and sovereignity rather than driven by a religious fixation. I think at this point, Zionists in the M.E. have scrapped any plans of rebuilding the Temple because of the radical Christian End-of-world theology pushing for them to so. When communism dissolves border issues and nationalist issues, I think those particular Mid-Eastern problems might just go away with them also. Yes, I can see that happening. I, actually, think the bigger problem might be how to get rid of the ruling class succession of popes. He&#39;s yet ever to have been deposed and seems to have alot of clout among 80% of the world or so. HOw do you think that might be done, without freaking his followers into a murderous revolt?


Just want to add that I can tolerate accepting unorganized non-profit religious practice, but not the unchecked power of the pope or his plunder.
i dont get it, do you think communism will solve the problem or not?

on the issue of the pope, when he loses all support, he loses all money, and therefore cannot support himself financially, at which point we will take the vatican off him and turn it into a huge rock venue.

[Funky Monk]

And how do you expect to turn the people against the Pope?
Mass economic crisis will only strengthen his support.

[Kez]

why wud there be mass economic crisis under socialism?

and i dont expect the people to turn against him, rather no-body would give a shit about him.

[James]

James,
"It is simply someone who believes fiercly in the supremecy of the fundamental teachings of one&#39;s holy book. Coming from fundamental."
-well done, *hands sweety to James*


Kamo, you asked me to tell you..


"One could even say you are a marxist fundamentalist."
-Right, whatever makes your day.

"Fundamentalists are fanatics; who are basically those who are obsessed, have a zeal - they are religious and political."
-Is this your second definition?


Its not my second definition at all - its expanding upon it. Fundamentalists are fanatics. Look the word up kamo.
You are a fanatic too kamo - you are obsessed with the "class struggle" - you see everything in the world in this fundamental context. Thus you are a fundamentalist marxist.
Therefore, it is quite obvious that fundamentalists are not just religious.
How is getting rid of capitalism going to stop people from believing in some thing, or some cause?


You can&#39;t possibly think that just because everyone will have food and be comfortable - philosophy (which is what religion is) will be abandoned."
-Nope,more people will have more time, so more thought will be given to philosophy.


Exactly.
More thought will be given to religion.




"Religion wouldn&#39;t die if capitalism did (only marxist fundamentalists argue such a thing)."
-Why are people religious? Many turn to it during hardship, and miseducation. for proof look at where poverty is strongest and illiteracy is strongest, and see the correlation with religion. Eg Pakistan, Afghanastan, Bangladesh, Many parts of Africa, Middle east. You look at Europe, compare Ireland with Britain.


You mean like politics?



"But you will now argue that religion is simply, only a reaction to economic/social hardship: and that i&#39;ve been taken in by the capitalists, and am causing the feet of the left to drag - or something equally as origional. "
Nah, ur not dragging us down, coz your an irrelevant piece of shit, thankfully


Well we can&#39;t all be significant hero&#39;s of the working class, can we.

[Kez]

were talking about islamic fundamentalism, dont change the question just because you cant win the argument.

Philosophy is not the same as religion, so where the fuck you got the idea that if more people had more time then more people would be interested in religion i have no idea.
People turn to religious mumbo jumbo when they see no answers or explainations, or even if those explainations are forbidden. These conditions are present today, but not unnder a socialist society.

Advanced workers turn to politics (and hopefully to socialism with our work) and more backward people generally lean towards religion for answers.

And we can all be part of the struggle, its just that you (for comfort issues) choose not to. Its easier just typing bullshit than it is to engage in the class struggle which is clear to see today all around us, such as the rising tensions for another FBU strike.

[James]

You said;
our enemy is capitalism, without capitalism there is no funndamentalism, look deep into the problem.

Fundamentalism is a reaction against the brutality of capitalism and imperialism, if we end capitalism, all these horrors such as Bush, Sharon, Blair, Bin Laden etc all go away.

So no, i don&#39;t think you were talking just about islamic fundamentalism. You were trying to claim that fundamentalism is caused by capitalism - and without capitalism - there would be no fundamentalism. If you don&#39;t think this now - good; and we don&#39;t have to carry on.


Philosophy is not the same as religion, so where the fuck you got the idea that if more people had more time then more people would be interested in religion i have no idea.

Religion is philosophy.


People turn to religious mumbo jumbo when they see no answers or explainations, or even if those explainations are forbidden. These conditions are present today, but not unnder a socialist society.

You say this because you are a fanatic.
It is simply not true though kamo - this is why i believe you need to look at religion properly - see what attracts people.


Advanced workers turn to politics (and hopefully to socialism with our work) and more backward people generally lean towards religion for answers.

And religious politicians don&#39;t exist?


And we can all be part of the struggle, its just that you (for comfort issues) choose not to. Its easier just typing bullshit than it is to engage in the class struggle which is clear to see today all around us, such as the rising tensions for another FBU strike.

You find links - you find meanings: just like any other fundamentalist who has a fanatical view.

Many historians argue that the cold war was partly down to the US acting like you -i.e. seeing everything within the context of a philosophy/theory.
And it was bullshit. But they believed themselves to be right - just like you do.

[Kez]

the whole thread was talking about islamic fundamentalism, only you didnt. Or infact, you did, but act like u didnt, so you can worm your way out of the situation.

religion may be philosphy, but i said philosophy as a whole...in fact i cant be arsed with this shite, your boring.

whats your point with religious politicians? the fact that they turn to politics means their answer lies within politics, not religion

[James]

the whole thread was talking about islamic fundamentalism, only you didnt. Or infact, you did, but act like u didnt, so you can worm your way out of the situation.

Well thats what i thought - but your opening statement (see previous post above) suggested against this.
Thats why i asked several times if you were crazy enough to think that fundamentalism as a whole would disapear with capitalism.

So no - fundamentalism is not caused by capitalism.


religion may be philosphy, but i said philosophy as a whole...in fact i cant be arsed with this shite, your boring.

yes... which includes religion. You don&#39;t need to say anything else - maybe just -re-read what you posted.


whats your point with religious politicians? the fact that they turn to politics means their answer lies within politics, not religion

It was in response to your crude statement that "advanced" people turn to politics. And "inferior" people turn to religion.
I was merely pointing out that this is bullshit; as some who "turn" to politics are also religious.

The source of this non-sense is your poor understanding of religion; which i partly put down to your dogmatic stance on everything.

[mEds]

Almost all forms of American politics are a waste of time. Nothing changes; a two party system leads to dishwater candidates.

[Kez]

So no - fundamentalism is not caused by capitalism.

However, back to the thread, Islamic Fundamentalism (which everyone has been talking about) will be.

Philosophy and religion are not the same thing. And under socialism, people would be inclined to believe in and debate real philosophy, not religious mumbo jumbo, this is the point.


It was in response to your crude statement that "advanced" people turn to politics. And "inferior" people turn to religion.
I was merely pointing out that this is bullshit; as some who "turn" to politics are also religious.

Why have you quoted me as saying "inferior". I would like you to retract that statement, nice one kidda.
Why do you miss the point of the thread, no1 is talking about how people can be religious and be politicians at the same time. The issue is how do some people turn to change the current situation, some to religion (priests, religious activists) and others to political means (be it thru bourgeoise parliament, or revolution)


The source of this non-sense is your poor understanding of religion; which i partly put down to your dogmatic stance on everything.
Nah, i&#39;d like to see where i was wrong on this understanding of religion, then we discuss where its from if you so wish.
The source of your bullshit thinking is your idiocy ; which i partly blame on your reliance on bourgeoise analysis and theological mumbo jumbo

[James]

However, back to the thread, Islamic Fundamentalism (which everyone has been talking about) will be.

Some of.


Philosophy and religion are not the same thing. And under socialism, people would be inclined to believe in and debate real philosophy, not religious mumbo jumbo, this is the point.

Personally, i count religion as philosophies. Obviously not all philosophy is religion... just in case there is some confusion here.


Why have you quoted me as saying "inferior". I would like you to retract that statement, nice one kidda.


Okay, done. I&#39;m sorry kamo - replace inferior with "backward" (although personally i think thats just as bad).
Now will you take back all the stuff you said about me?


Why do you miss the point of the thread, no1 is talking about how people can be religious and be politicians at the same time. The issue is how do some people turn to change the current situation, some to religion (priests, religious activists) and others to political means (be it thru bourgeoise parliament, or revolution)

And my point was that some do both.
e.g. Me.


Nah, i&#39;d like to see where i was wrong on this understanding of religion, then we discuss where its from if you so wish.
The source of your bullshit thinking is your idiocy ; which i partly blame on your reliance on bourgeoise analysis and theological mumbo jumbo

Well you simply see the only reason people turn to religion - is socio-economic (capitalism) inspired. I don&#39;t think if you had communism, then religion would die. Religion would be just as strong.

[Funky Monk]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 11:46 AM
why wud there be mass economic crisis under socialism?

and i dont expect the people to turn against him, rather no-body would give a shit about him.
Well in previous threads it has been stipulated that only mass economic crisis will create a Socialist State in the Western World.

And you obviously know nothing about religion if you think people will just ignore him.

[Kez]

Well i think its here we differ, i think people turn to religion when they fail to come up with answers.

If answers are come up with, then the role of religion dies.

[Funky Monk]

I doubt that even Communism will be able to provide answers to everything and therefore religion will still be needed by some.

[Kez]

possibly, but religion would be reduced to a rump society i think, especially when many religious people believe "ah its ok to have a shit life now, we will go to heaven and it will be a-ok". This bollocks will have ended.

However, i think it will take a coupleof generations for it to really disappear.

[James]

"ah its ok to have a shit life now, we will go to heaven and it will be a-ok". This bollocks will have ended

I don&#39;t think human&#39;s will ever loose the concept of an after life.

[Kez]

most people have mate...

90% of people on this board have

[James]

Name a culture which doesn&#39;t have a belief in something "after" death. Very few people think "death is death".

Your example - well... thats 90% (which i contest . . . more like 60/70?), of this board. This board is hardly representative (age, politics, background, experiance)
Not representative at all.


No, i don&#39;t think the concept will "pass away".
Again, we&#39;ll have to agree to disagree.

[Kez]

"Name a culture which doesn&#39;t have a belief in something "after" death. Very few people think "death is death"."
-Athiesm

[Louis Pio]

In the danish church alot of people don&#39;t even believe in the afterlife anymore.
I think people who does need so in order to cope with their life.
If people had a decent life (without stress, fear of sacking etc) the need to belive in the afterlife would slowly disappear. People&#39;s need for religion ain&#39;t static but for the vast majority it is determined by their living conditions.

[Le Libérer]

Religion and a beleif in the after life, to me, is a way of bringing order to chaos. Its something man is allowed to control..... thoughts and actions.

I myself being brought up as a fundamental Christian ( which means beleiving every word written the in Bible is the literal word of GOD, and I suspect the word fundamental means the same thing to Muslims) The teachings are always there in the back of my mind, even tho I dont subscribe to all of them any longer. I was taught those things at a very early age.

Now my thinking is, could go out and do massive amounts of drugs, have countless sexual encounters, even commit suicide (things that I was taught will send me to hell) but I dont, why? not because I will burn in an everlasting hell fire, but because its socially unacceptable and unhealthy. The very teachings I denouce now, still effect my behavoir. And there no escaping that.

[Kez]

i wudnt subscribe to those acts either, not because of what Mr hibby jibby said, but coz their plain fuckin stupid lol.

i dont think theres an exclusive link between not committing the acts, and what one reads in the bible

[Louis Pio]

A good friend of mine comes from a religious background. His father was a paedhophile (no shit :( )
It&#39;s my impression that these things occur in the same amount in religious groups as in the rest of society.
In religious groups we even face a bigger threat of it being covered up because because the members feel they need to "protect" the group.

[fuerzasocialista]

There are some really messed up comments here. Niether side whether it be the Imperialists or the Muslim fundamentalists are correct in their actions. I realize that the U.S. has mettled in world affairs for far too long and as a result, the terrorists struck on American soil. But I will venture out to say that if the U.S. didn&#39;t mettle in the Middle East, 9-11 would have never happened. As far as people, saying that &#39;one less American is a step towards peace&#39; please define your comments. Do you mean one less American citizen? A civilian? What if they harbour Socialist beliefs? Should all Americans be put to death?

[BuyOurEverything]

I think they meant one less US soldier is a step towards peace. While I don&#39;t neccessarily celebrate the killing of poor kids trying to make money for college, it&#39;s not neccessarily untrue.

[refuse_resist]

Yeah. People forget theres a difference between Islam and all these Muslim Fundamentalist. They&#39;ve fed too much into the propaganda put out by the American government.