Acknowledgements to old communist attempts

[Nas]

lets say a country finally makes the socialist system work , so that country is no longer capitalist,

i am very sure Karl Marx and Engels will be acknowledge because of the Communist Manifesto and their impact on the world

but who else do you think is going to be acknowledge ? Che Guevara? Mao? Lenin? Trotsky? Castro? Stalin?

will they acknowledge the Soviet Union for trying to set up a communist state ?? will they acknowledge Vietnam or Korea? Cuba?

[elijahcraig]

I would hope there would be no official "acknowledging" of individuals or former attempts, but personal choices made on who they choose to acknowledge as establishing the socialist economic system.

Any sanctioning of individuals or states as "heroes" will likely lead to North Korea worship, or even US-style mythology of pragmatic "founding fathers."



I choose to acknowledge Lenin, Castro, Che, Stalin, Mao, and countless others, alongside the workers themselves as heroes of the socialist cause. I do not acknowledge these men as necessarily "great men." I also acknowledge Jung, Pound, and Heidegger as great in their fields, though they were all fascists.

I think obsession with certain "heroes" will occur undoubtedly in ANY CULTURE, simply because of the herd-instinct of humanity, and its need to "mythologize" and "nullify" its senses in favor of survival of the horrible reality of meaningless existence.

[monkeydust]

I definately agree with elijahcraig on the issue of 'hero worship'.

But one person who deserves recognition who hasn't been mentioned is Rosa Luxemberg.

[Salvador Allende]

Comrades Ulyanov, Koba, Mao, Enlai, Jiang Qing, Che, Hoxha, Pol Pot, Bac Ho, Allende. All of them tried to make Socialism turn into Communism.

However, after all of them died their system was corrupted and turned into Khruschovism (with the exception of Che who was never in charge of a country and Allende who the US and Pinochet overthrew to set up a dictatorship.)

[Ortega]

Comrades Ulyanov, Koba, Mao, Enlai, Jiang Qing, Che, Hoxha, Pol Pot, Bac Ho, Allende. All of them tried to make Socialism turn into Communism.

Pol Pot. You would honestly want to acknowledge Pol Pot for his "help" in creating a "Communist society."

Let me tell you something - Pol Pot was NOT a "glorious communist leader." Pol Pot wasn't even an "evil, repressive dictator". Pol Pot was a monster. I cannot allow anyone to glorify him, ever.

If my point isn't completely clear - Pol Pot is NOT a man for the left to idolize. Pol Pot is not a man for anyone to idolize. I'd reccomend that you rethink your choice.

http://www.bikebrats.com/india/bkkcam/bkca16.jpg

[Take the Power back]

Thank you Jacobo, the picture especially got a good point across. I wanted to jump all over that one myself. Pol Pot should be left in history as a murderer, not someone to glorify.

[Salvador Allende]

Pol Pot did not kill nearly as many as people think. People hear numbers that for the most part also include the civil war in cambodia, the invasion from South Vietnam, the invasion from Vietnam and the US invasions and bombings. It is said that in all reality only 50,000 were executed under him. That number may be bad, but it is not even in the realm of Comrade Koba who you apparently have no problem with. Oh, and also add Castro there.

[M_Rawlins]

COUNTING THE VICTIMS
The Cambodia Genocide Program finds that Khmer Rouge atrocities were even worse than supposed
FRANK GIBNEY JR.

When Craig Etcheson turns up in his mud-splattered Toyota Land Cruiser and starts asking questions, most Cambodian villagers figure their safest answer is no. That is because the subject of the history professor's research is the Khmer Rouge, whose four-year reign of terror in the late 1970s created a legacy of fear that still lingers. But enough people have overcome their reluctance and talked to Etcheson, who works for the Cambodia Genocide Program, to provide him with convincing evidence that the Khmer Rouge extermination apparatus was more organized and coldly destructive than anyone knew. In the Prey Kabbas district of Takeo province alone, 1,245 mass graves have been unearthed, each containing the remains of up to 250 men, women and children. "We never anticipated such an astonishing amount," says the American. "We came in thinking there might be 200 [mass graves] in the whole country."

Funded primarily by the U.S. State Department, the $500,000 project was started by Yale University 15 months ago to document the murders committed by Maoist leader Pol Pot's 1975-79 rural resettlement experiment and to help bring the perpetrators to justice. Those are daunting tasks. Pol Pot has not appeared publicly in more than a decade, and the entire episode has long been the focus of controversy. The death toll has stirred acrimonious debate from the time Vietnamese troops stormed into Cambodia on Christmas Day 1978 and ended Khmer Rouge rule two weeks later. Since then, estimates of the number of deaths have ranged from 20,000 to 3.3 million--the latter offered by Vietnam shortly after it invaded.

Although most analysts have dismissed the Vietnamese number as an exaggeration, the new research suggests Hanoi may not have been that far off. Aided by an Australian-funded satellite mapping system and thousands of newly discovered Khmer Rouge documents, researchers have compiled enough evidence in seven of Cambodia's 22 provinces to suggest that the total number of deaths is at least 2 million, twice the figure generally accepted by scholars. "That makes this the second or third largest one-sided massacre in the 20th century," says David Chandler of Monash University in Australia. Behind the statistics lies a chilling new picture of the Pol Pot killing machine.

Consider the evidence: daily execution logs; directives ordering "important" prisoners to be brought from local detention centers to provincial capitals and Phnom Penh's infamous Tuol Sleng prison; typed execution orders, like the one in which a junior prison official (whose name, like many, is being kept secret) notes, "Have killed 18 important enemies," and casually adds, "Also killed 168 children." The chilling mood of the day is perhaps best summed up by the scrawl at the bottom of an authorization note by Kaang Kech, a.k.a. Duch, the notorious Tuol Sleng warden: "Kill them all."

Bringing any of the executioners to trial will be much more complicated than documenting how many people they killed. In 1979 innocent people fled Vietnam alongside Pol Pot's cadres and sympathizers. Since the 1991 Paris Peace agreement paved the way for U.N.-sponsored elections two years later, 250,000 of those refugees have returned from the Thai-Cambodian border. Today former Khmer Rouge officials work with relatives of their victims, in the fields and in government ministries. "Look at some of the people in leadership positions now," says Chandler. "Some of these guys were in the organization until 1978." One of them is co-Prime Minister Hun Sen, who defected to Vietnam in 1978. Since the Genocide Program was launched, he has said he would be willing to stand trial if others were put on trial. Said Hun Sen: "This is not about politics but about justice."

For the program's staff, it is very much about politics, because the more details they gather on suspects, the more dangerous their job becomes. (Etcheson and his staff work out of an unmarked house in central Phnom Penh.) With 15 provinces still to map and countless more interviews to conduct, Etcheson has little doubt that the project will take much more time and money than the State Department has provided.

For its part, the Phnom Penh government is preoccupied with simply defeating the remaining 4,000 Khmer Rouge fighters, whose guerrilla war has taken hundreds of lives in just the past few weeks. Given the enduring nature of Pol Pot's campaign, justice may continue to elude Cambodia's innocent victims--no matter how many of them there were.

--Reported by Matthew Lee/Phnom Penh

[Dune Dx]

sorry to be stupid but who is Pol Pot?

[M_Rawlins]

this might help:

About Pol Pot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pol_Pot)

[elijahcraig]

Comrades Ulyanov, Koba, Mao, Enlai, Jiang Qing, Che, Hoxha, Pol Pot, Bac Ho, Allende. All of them tried to make Socialism turn into Communism.

This is what I dislike about Leninists, they always find some way to “honor” “leaders” of revolutions above the revolution itself.


Pol Pot did not kill nearly as many as people think. People hear numbers that for the most part also include the civil war in cambodia, the invasion from South Vietnam, the invasion from Vietnam and the US invasions and bombings. It is said that in all reality only 50,000 were executed under him. That number may be bad, but it is not even in the realm of Comrade Koba who you apparently have no problem with. Oh, and also add Castro there.

Just keep telling yourself that, “Allende.” I’m sure the man in your avatar and Castro would disagree.

[Salvador Allende]

I see no one has a problem with Koba. What did he kill 20 million-40 million? So, I suppose executing 50,000 is much worse than 20-40 million nowadays?

[Take the Power back]

Originally posted by Salvador [email protected] 15 2004, 12:23 AM
I see no one has a problem with Koba. What did he kill 20 million-40 million? So, I suppose executing 50,000 is much worse than 20-40 million nowadays?
Ever notice how stalinists are put into OI? He is looked as a leader of communism, ha. PLus, you mentioned him in your first post. Then, you said he was a murderer. Why did you even mention him to begin with?

[Comrade Zeke]

We shouldn't idolize anyone we should just keep it as "Great heros" who tryed and failed in there awful attemps at trying to create Communism. Although I acolnowlege Castro,Tito,Ho and Che as great and inspiring leaders I don't think we should obbseeced them Hero Worship is the one reason why Communism of the past failed.

When the Revolution happens we should not try to brainwash the children to think that Communism is the most suppioer system on the plannet we should let them look at all the governments see why they have failed and then show them about Communism
Sorry about spelling
Zeke

[elijahcraig]

[/QUOTE] I see no one has a problem with Koba. What did he kill 20 million-40 million? So, I suppose executing 50,000 is much worse than 20-40 million nowadays?[/QUOTE]

Moron.

[Salvador Allende]

it isn't my fault you will call Pol Pot a murderer and turn the other cheek to Koba who killed over 100 times as many.

[Ortega]

Originally posted by Salvador [email protected] 15 2004, 05:19 PM
it isn't my fault you will call Pol Pot a murderer and turn the other cheek to Koba who killed over 100 times as many.
Prove it.

Pol Pot killed many more than 50,000 people. That's a proven fact, not a "bourgeois lie."

He killed a friend of my father's simply because he was a (poor) pilot who had been to college, which obviously made him one of the "educated elite."

<_<

I have absolutely no respect for anyone who supports Pol Pot.

Also, may I add that Castro is a saint compared to Pol Pot. You can&#39;t even compare the two, so don&#39;t try.

[Salvador Allende]

Originally posted by Jacobo Arbenz+May 17 2004, 06:08 PM--> (Jacobo Arbenz @ May 17 2004, 06:08 PM)
Salvador [email protected] 15 2004, 05:19 PM
it isn&#39;t my fault you will call Pol Pot a murderer and turn the other cheek to Koba who killed over 100 times as many.
Prove it.

Pol Pot killed many more than 50,000 people. That&#39;s a proven fact, not a "bourgeois lie."

He killed a friend of my father&#39;s simply because he was a (poor) pilot who had been to college, which obviously made him one of the "educated elite."

<_<

I have absolutely no respect for anyone who supports Pol Pot.

Also, may I add that Castro is a saint compared to Pol Pot. You can&#39;t even compare the two, so don&#39;t try. [/b]
Well, first of all, even the CIA records say Pol Pot executed only about 50,000. Most everyone will say that, however, if you are talking about died under him, that is different because most of the people who died weren&#39;t executed. But, if you count everyone who died under him, then you also count natural deaths and that is why I go by executions.

Second of all, I never compared Fidel Castro and Pol Pot to one another. I said Koba, if you do not know who Koba is, why are you even trying to debate about Marxism?

[MiniOswald]

This is what I dislike about Leninists, they always find some way to “honor” “leaders” of revolutions above the revolution itself.

actually im a leninist and i beleive that honour should be with the poeple like some video i watched in history once, with some russian fella in a mine and he collected loads more than everyone else cos he kept on workin. it was to encourage workers in the state. at this point someone puts up their hand and says why does he work so hard when he gets barely anything and the history teacher said, &#39;well if kids are still hearing his name in 70 odd years time he cant exactly have been getting nothing.

no idea why that stayed with me, twas years ago

[Ortega]

Originally posted by Salvador Allende+--> (Salvador Allende)Second of all, I never compared Fidel Castro and Pol Pot to one another.[/b]
Must I remind you?


Salvador Allende
Oh, and also add Castro there.
http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=24839#


I said Koba, if you do not know who Koba is, why are you even trying to debate about Marxism?
I do know who Koba is, thank you. I don&#39;t support Koba either, but one cannot simply state that Pol Pot was "good" because he killed less people than another dictator. Anyway, it is debatable which leader killed more people. Pol Pot certainly killed more people.

If you aren&#39;t aware, the CIA propped up Pol Pot from the beginning. It has always been considered one of their greatest mistakes. So why should it be a big deal that even the CIA says Pol Pot only killed 50,000 people? It&#39;s not. The CIA is not a reliable source for that number, and I doubt that the CIA has even released that number.

EDIT: This is interesting. I&#39;ve found accounts similar to this almost everywhere I&#39;ve looked. 900,000 deaths (and that&#39;s the minimum) certainly sounds a whole lot different from 50,000.


On May 13, 1976 Pol Pot had been appointed Prime Minister of Cambodia, and began to implement sweeping "socialist" reforms to the nation. Politicians and bureaucrats were killed, and all other inhabitants were driven out of the
city into the countryside where they were forced to do physical labour.
Phnom Penh was turned into a ghost city, and many died of starvation,
illnesses or execution. Education, religion, private possessions and
families were abolished. Pol Pot became paranoid, and saw internal and
external Vietnamese plots everywhere. Enormous numbers of suspects were
tortured and killed. One paticuarly gruesome tactic was the widespread
mining of civilian areas. Pol Pot was quite fond of the "effectiveness" of
landmines as a way subduing Cambodia&#39;s population into compliance, and
praised them as his "perfect soldiers."

The death toll from the Pol Pot terror is estimated at somewhere between
900,000 and 2 million.

http://www.informationheadquarters.com/War...r/Pol_Pot.shtml (http://www.informationheadquarters.com/War/Vietnam_War/Pol_Pot.shtml)

[Salvador Allende]

that is not comparing their evils, it is simply adding Castro to the original list of people who made attempts.

"The death toll from the Pol Pot terror is estimated at somewhere between
900,000 and 2 million." That number includes the number of starvations and other deaths during his reign. Of course, the numbers in his reign include natural deaths and for the most part even include (by accident mind you) some deaths from US bombings and the Vietnamese invasions. I really don&#39;t think it is in debate who killed more people since the lowest number I have ever heard for Koba was 3 million, with the highest reaching near 30 million.

In any event, Pol Pot&#39;s goods made up for his evils. Illiteracy was nearly destroyed as kids were taught reading and math at a level not seen for a long time in Cambodia. Several diseases were also vanquished in Cambodia. Seeing as the people were near-starvation when he took over and the economy was in shambles with their only refinary being destroyed by the US in the early 1970&#39;s, he recovered them to a very good level. The coinage system was abandoned and the calandar was reset to the year zero. Cambodia became self-sufficiant to a level not previously seen for quite a long time, it was free from foreign economic domination. So, overall, Cambodia gained literacy, freedom from foreign economic domination and got rid of several diseases and the coinage system. Plus, their economy recovered to a stable level. While their jump was nothing like the economic LEAP that the Soviets achieved under Koba, it certainly was not designed to be as Cambodia was in worse shape than the USSR in 1928.

[Ortega]

It&#39;s people like you will doom leftism, Allende. Pol Pot&#39;s "contributions," if there were any, did not outweigh his evils&#33; People say Hitler did wonders for the German economy. Pinochet has been praised for molding Chile into an economic superpower.

But are either of those men worshipped today? No. Because nothing, and I mean nothing can outweigh the act of sending thousands of men to death camps, or having people "dissapear" from their beds at night. It doesn&#39;t matter what else Pol Pot did&#33; That should all be outweighed by what he did to the people of Cambodia.

Also, the statistic I gave you did not include natural deaths. Those were all government-caused deaths (i.e. executions). I highlighted something to that effect in the quote.

http://www.jrn.com.uy/imagenes/craneos-pol-pot.jpg

http://www.dithpran.org/jpg/skull.jpg

http://www.inthesetimes.com/issue/25/16/zachary2516a.jpg

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by Salvador [email protected] 13 2004, 11:55 PM
Pol Pot did not kill nearly as many as people think. People hear numbers that for the most part also include the civil war in cambodia, the invasion from South Vietnam, the invasion from Vietnam and the US invasions and bombings. It is said that in all reality only 50,000 were executed under him. That number may be bad, but it is not even in the realm of Comrade Koba who you apparently have no problem with. Oh, and also add Castro there.
Bullshit: -



#

* Math Ly, member of Cambodian Politburo: 3,300,000 (21 May 1987 AP)
* Rummel: 2,000,000 domestic + 35,000 foreign democides
* SIPRI 1989: 2,000,000
* Elizabeth Becker When the War Was Over (1986): as many as 2,000,000
* D. Smith: 1 to 3 million
* Eckhardt: 1,500,000 civ. + 500,000 mil. = 2,000,000
* War Annual 6: 2,000,000
* Kutler, Stanley: Encyclopedia of the Vietnam War (1996): 2M
* Courtois, Stephane, Le Livre Noir du Communism: 1,300,000 to 2,300,000
* Clodfelter, Michael, Vietnam in Military Statistics (1995): 1,200,000 to 2,000,000
* Wallechinsky: between 1 and 2 million.
* Dict.Wars: 1M ("Cambodian Civil War of 1970-75") to 2M ("Kampuchean Civil War of 1978-98")
* P. Johnson: 1,200,000.
* Marie Martin, Cambodia, a Shattered Society (1994) cites:
o US State Dept.: 1.2-1.8M
o Demographer En Meng Try: 1.0-1.2M
* Encarta: "...may have caused more than 1 million..."
* Chandler, David, Brother Number One (1992): "conservative estimate" of 800,000 to 1,000,000.
* Marilyn Young, The Vietnam Wars: 1945-1990 (1991): in the text she gives the range of estimates as 0.7 to 2.0 M. In a footnote, she favorably cites Michael Vickery&#39;s estimate of 700,000 to 1,000,000.
* Chomsky (1987): 750,000, citing Vickery.

# These are the numbers quoted in Pol Pot&#39;s 1998 obituaries:

* "more than 1 million" (New York Times, Newsweek, Time)
* "1.5 million or more" (Washington Post)
* "up to 2 million" (U.S. News and World Reports)

# Ben Kiernan in The Pol Pot Regime (also in "The Cambodian Genocide", Century of Genocide: Eyewitness Accounts and Critical Views, Samuel Totten, editor, 1997) estimates 1,671,000 (21%) killed out of a population of 7,890,000, including...

* Vietnamese: 10,000 (100%)
* Chinese: 215,000 (50%)
* Lao: 4,000 (40%)
* Thai: 8,000 (40%)
* Cham: 90,000 (36%)
* Urban Khmer: 500,000 (25%)
* Rural Khmer: 825,000 (16%)

# Average: If we take these 25 estimates and figure that "more than" means 20% more, while "up to" means 20% less, and "between" means dead center, then both the median and mean of all these estimates is 1.6M

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat2.htm#Cambodia



50,000 my ass.

[Salvador Allende]

All statistics I have heard say around 50,000 executions. 50,000 is far away from the number you are saying. Starvation and other causes are not included in this 50,000. Almost every really credible non-biased source will tell you this. You will doom leftism by throwing Menshevik and Khruschovist views in the way of Marxism-Leninism-Maoism.

[Ortega]

Originally posted by Salvador [email protected] 18 2004, 08:39 PM
All statistics I have heard say around 50,000 executions. 50,000 is far away from the number you are saying. Starvation and other causes are not included in this 50,000. Almost every really credible non-biased source will tell you this. You will doom leftism by throwing Menshevik and Khruschovist views in the way of Marxism-Leninism-Maoism.
We give you links and detailed statistics, and in reply you give us a weak, accusatory argument without any links to back your statements up.

Once again, prove it. If you want us to believe that Pol Pot "only killed 50,000 people," prove it.

[Saint-Just]

I don&#39;t know how many were killed in Cambodia. However, the U.S. killed a massive amount through bombing the country. Any source that does not acknowledge that is going to be wrong.

[Guest1]

Originally posted by Take the Power [email protected] 14 2004, 11:20 PM
Ever notice how stalinists are put into OI?
They&#39;re not. There are many Stalinists here not in OI. The ones who are are total reactionaries or trolls.

As for Pol Pot, he was a Fascist, plain and simple. Even Stalin wasn&#39;t as sadistic and insane as he was.

How someone could reach the conclusion that teachers, authors, doctors, university students were all a part of another kind of class division and that the only way to end it was to kill them all is beyond me.

He didn&#39;t just want the elimination of classes, he wanted equal misery for all. Hence the landmines <_<

Read man, you&#39;re really not gonna get anywhere unless you read more about what Communism really is and why no one should support people like Pol Pot.

And no, most of us do have a problem with "Koba", or Stalin as he is called by those who don&#39;t mind associating him with his crimes.

Elijah just happens to be one who doesn&#39;t.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Com&#39;n it should be up to the people themselves who they admire. I don&#39;t want a Coca Cola sign on every sign nor a Lenin Statue. One of the few times that I agree with Elijah Craigh :D

Pol Pot isn&#39;t Communist, Socialist or anything leftist. He was so progressive for the leftist cause that even the US supported him. Think about that.

[Saint-Just]

How someone could reach the conclusion that teachers, authors, doctors, university students were all a part of another kind of class division and that the only way to end it was to kill them all is beyond me.

There are different theories. But what you said there is basically right. It is said that the Khymer Rouge believed that true Cambodia was in peasant life working in the fields. They thought that cities and everything in them was a perversion of their culture that came from the west.

However, it has also been said that they moved everyone out of the cities because the cities were being heavily bombed by Americans. I believe the former.

[Hate Is Art]

Well my grandad was working in SE Asia in the late 70&#39;s and has told me some pretty gruesome stories of Pol Pot and the Kyhmer Rouge.

One were a group of men were scouring the countryside and anyone who&#39;s hands didn&#39;t look worn enough like they had been working the fields and farming where beheaded, there and then&#33;

Eliminating classes is what we aim for in communism, killing everyone is what we don&#39;t aim for, the Kyhmer Rouge sicken me, anyone who supports them deserves absolutly no respect&#33;

Why do you call Stalin Koba? At least have the balls to use the mass murderers name&#33;

[Fidel Castro]

I acknowledge and applaud the attempts of comrades Marx, Engles, Lenin, Castro, Guevara, Allande, Ho Chi Minh, Mao, Tito. I also aknowledge the brave fellowships of communists and socialist thinkers all over the world who have strived to bring socialism to the world, even if their methods of doing so we now know to be flawed.

I condemn those who have done nothing above those who have tried and failed.

[elijahcraig]

I acknowledge and applaud the attempts of comrades Marx, Engles, Lenin, Castro, Guevara, Allande, Ho Chi Minh, Mao, Tito. I also aknowledge the brave fellowships of communists and socialist thinkers all over the world who have strived to bring socialism to the world, even if their methods of doing so we now know to be flawed.

Tito opposed Stalin, Castro opposed (flipfloped on) Mao, Mao supported Stalin, Lenin supported Stalin, Guevara supported Mao and Stalin, where is Stalin on this list?

[Invader Zim]

All statistics I have heard say around 50,000 executions. 50,000 is far away from the number you are saying. Starvation and other causes are not included in this 50,000. Almost every really credible non-biased source will tell you this. You will doom leftism by throwing Menshevik and Khruschovist views in the way of Marxism-Leninism-Maoism.

Did you read my post, or did you just choose to ignore it?

[Salvador Allende]

Originally posted by Digital [email protected] 26 2004, 09:08 AM
Why do you call Stalin Koba? At least have the balls to use the mass murderers name&#33;
Koba is his revolutionary name, any revolutionary or revolutionary minded person who considers him to be a Comrade usually calls him this. Stalin isn&#39;t even his name, his real name is Iosif Vissarionovich Djughashvili or something like that.

I have actually re-thought my views on Pol Pot and agree with you and remove him from the list.

However, Koba, while he may have done some bad things, saved the USSR, Europe, the Socialist world and quite frankly the entire world. His economic miracle has never been matched in strength and speed. He turned a country from a destroyed-agricultural land into a heavy-industrialized giant in 10 years. Like it or not, Trotsky could have done nothing like that, he was far too passive.

[Hate Is Art]

Trotsky wouldn&#39;t have mass murdered&#33; I don&#39;t want to get into a whole petty little Stalin vs Totsky debate though&#33; I can respect Stalin for some of his actions (industrializing) and show utter hatred for the rest (everything else) while still be a filty trot head&#33;

[Guest1]

Originally posted by Salvador [email protected] 27 2004, 11:48 PM
I have actually re-thought my views on Pol Pot and agree with you and remove him from the list.
Good to hear that comrade. It&#39;s always good to meet someone open-minded enough to change their views based on the facts :)

It&#39;s a start, now let&#39;s see if we can corrupt your mind a little more :P

Oh, and just to clarify, there aren&#39;t many Trotskyists here on Che-Lives, though the community is diverse. We have Stalinists, Maoists, Trotskyists, Leninists, Libertarian Marxists, Anarchists, Socialists and even a few Social Democrats here.

The majority of the people who tell you they stand against Stalin are not doing it out of love for Trotsky, for I agree, he was no better.