American Decapitated By Terrorists [Archive]

MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr

12th May 2004, 01:24

Originally posted by Capitalist Imperial+May 11 2004, 06:38 PM--> (Capitalist Imperial @ May 11 2004, 06:38 PM)
Edward [email protected] 11 2004, 10:33 PM
You needn't worry about that CI.

Thats exactly what the the US/UK etc... have been doing all along for the past year and a half.

Mind you with attitudes like that don't start yelling your outrage when some US trained professional killer be it US army or some 'civilian contracter' ie: armed mercenaries gets the rightful response to them by the Iraqi resistence.

With your bloodbath in Falluja and many other cities beside, I feel nothing but joy when one of your soilders get blown up/shot/beheaded or any other ending they so rightfully deserve.

I only hope that thing now 'heat up' considerably and that soon will see thousands of US personal comming home to their families on body bags. Mind you that in itself is not enough, the Arab resitance needs to strike the US where it really hurts, on their own turf. I only hope to see another spectacular event in some US city like the world saw three years ago in NYC and W. DC.
Dude, they make decaf.

Anyone who wants to try someting on US Turf is welcome.

We will be happy to turn their nation into a parking lot as well. [/b]
I wonder what the ever enlightening CI would do should the "terrorists" have no country, something that CI clearly does not understand. We Communists know no boundries. Countries do not divide us, and for this reason, we cannot lose. We are the largest movement in the world and are growing every day. You might think we are defeated, because "communist" regimes around the world have fallen, but nonetheless, we continue to grow every day. You might think you are winning, becuase most of the world is capitalists, but you can never succeed because you constantly fight amongst yourselves. I wonder CI, how will you level the country of a "terrorist" who does not have a country to level? Firing nuclear weapons does no good when we are right in your backyard. Shall you nuke New York city because there might be terrorists there? How would bombing innocents in Baghdad be any different? Foolish child.

antieverything

12th May 2004, 02:08

Wow. You are all absolute idiots.

Urban Rubble

12th May 2004, 02:33

Mind you with attitudes like that don't start yelling your outrage when some US trained professional killer be it US army or some 'civilian contracter' ie: armed mercenaries gets the rightful response to them by the Iraqi resistence.

You won't get any *****ing from me when a U.S soldier dies in Iraq. It's sad, but he shouldn't have been there. However, beheading people, dragging them through the streets, torture, these things are not acceptable punishment for any human, I don't care how bad of a crime they have committed.

With your bloodbath in Falluja and many other cities beside, I feel nothing but joy when one of your soilders get blown up/shot/beheaded or any other ending they so rightfully deserve.

You're an ignorant piece of shit. That isn't even worth a proper response.

I only hope that thing now 'heat up' considerably and that soon will see thousands of US personal comming home to their families on body bags.

Why would you say something so completley fucking retarted ? Did the thought ever occur to you that maybe a better solution would be for these soldiers to come home on an airplane, hell, maybe even alive ? They should be out of Iraq, I agree, but to wish they die rather than just go home is sick. Fuck you Ed.

Mind you that in itself is not enough, the Arab resitance needs to strike the US where it really hurts, on their own turf.

Can I ask why you would wish to spread a war ? Why would you rather see a war escalate than see the war end ?

I only hope to see another spectacular event in some US city like the world saw three years ago in NYC and W. DC.

Jesus Christ you're a fucking tool. So now you support killing innocent people for the criminal actions of their government ?

You're a dumb motherfucker Ed.

This war sucks. It's criminal, it's sickening. However, you seem to have attended the George W. Bush school of war. You think that if someone attacks you, you have to go attack them 10 times worse, indiscriminately, and without addressing the root cause of the problem. You are advocating that the resistance commit more attrocities, target civilians and take any knee jerk response they can. Quite simply, you're fucking retarted. As CI said, all that kind of shit will accomplish is a greater counter attack, more death, more destruction. I am not saying the resistance is wrong for killing American soldiers, what I am saying is that they should not let their outrage get in the way of fighting with their heads. If you kill a soldier, that's fine, it's a war, count it as a point and move on. If you do what these morons did and drag bodies through the street, mutilate corpses, cut heads off, you lose the advantage you gained with that kill. People will turn away from your cause because all they see is a bunch of bloodthirsty maniacs dragging corpses through the street. You also trigger a much angrier, bloodier response from you enemies.

I would respond to CI's drivel, but it's nothing new.

BuyOurEverything

12th May 2004, 02:47

What's so bad about beheading Rubble? It doesn't seem that much different from getting shot in the head, which is a perfectly acceptable form of killing. I completely agree about torture though.

antieverything

12th May 2004, 02:56

Well, executing prisoners is wrong by itself. Beheading them and releasing the video is depraved.

BuyOurEverything

12th May 2004, 03:22

Assuming a war (or revolution) is justified, why is executing prisoners any worse than killing soldiers in battle? The problem in this situation is not the execution of prisdoners, it's the fact that the war is not justified on either side, and the man killed was a civilian.

Loknar

12th May 2004, 03:44

So, is anyone here out-raged by the video? Or did he "deserve it"?

BuyOurEverything

12th May 2004, 03:49

From what I know, he did not deserve it. He was an innocent civilian and so his killing was disgusting. I was speaking more theoretically.

Ã‘Ã³ẊÃ®Ã¶ŉ

12th May 2004, 09:10

Urban Rubble

You won't get any *****ing from me when a U.S soldier dies in Iraq. It's sad, but he shouldn't have been there. However, beheading people, dragging them through the streets, torture, these things are not acceptable punishment for any human, I don't care how bad of a crime they have committed.

antieverything

Well, executing prisoners is wrong by itself. Beheading them and releasing the video is depraved.

I can't believe what a fucking bunch of pussy liberals we have on this board. Why the fuck do you have compassion for our class enemies?

The more 'transfer tubes' that start coming back to the US, the better.
How is releasing a video of an execution 'depraved'? It doesn't change the fact that it happened. If you your poor little eyes are too sensitive for such stuff then don't watch it. Simple, rather like you are.

Personally I think he deserved it. Anyone who aids and abets the US military deserves everything they get.

PS, well said MM

Danton

12th May 2004, 09:19

Invictus

12th May 2004, 10:16

You can watch this "noble act of resistance" here (http://www.ogrish.com/ogrish-dot-com-american_beheading_in_iraq.wmv).

The executioner praises Allah before taking the screaming civilian contractor by the hair and cutting through his neck as if it were a piece of wood. He then raises the severed head in front of the camera and continues rambling about the greatness of his God.

Danton

12th May 2004, 10:31

When and where did I call it a noble act of resistance?
Yes these people are warped by religion but that doesn't mean they can't defend thier country from foreign invaders and private mercenaries..

Invictus

12th May 2004, 10:43

When and where did I call it a noble act of resistance?

Your labelling of the executioners as "freedom fighters" indicated that this was your implication.

Yes these people are warped by religion but that doesn't mean they can't defend thier country from foreign invaders and private mercenaries..

A mercenary is someone hired to fight for a foreign military. Nick Berg was a U.S. citizen in Iraq working on communication towers. Explain to me how killing this civilian contributed to the defence of Iraq.

Danton

12th May 2004, 10:47

It sends the message quite succintley - Yanqui's not welcome

Would you kindly remove the a.k.a Dr Mengele, it's frivolous and provocative..

Capitalist Imperial

12th May 2004, 15:55

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 10:47 AM
It sends the message quite succintley - Yanqui's not welcome

Would you kindly remove the a.k.a Dr Mengele, it's frivolous and provocative..
Islamic fundamentalists saying "yankees not welcome" means nothing. They do not represent the majority in Iraq.

The bottom line, to be candid, it that this was a poor decision by Al-Zarqawi and his minions.

They, and OBL, will eventually be hunted down and made to answer for this and other atrocities just as Saddam was. In the meantime, more Iraqis will take surrogate-responsibility for this heinous act, and they will pay the price accordingly.

American soveriegnty must be maintained.

A new representative government friendly to American interests will be instilled in Iraq. It is imminent, and insurgent terrorist pukes will not stop it.

Capitalist Imperial

12th May 2004, 16:13

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 09:10 AM
I can't believe what a fucking bunch of pussy liberals we have on this board. Why the fuck do you have compassion for our class enemies?

The more 'transfer tubes' that start coming back to the US, the better.
How is releasing a video of an execution 'depraved'? It doesn't change the fact that it happened. If you your poor little eyes are too sensitive for such stuff then don't watch it. Simple, rather like you are.

Personally I think he deserved it. Anyone who aids and abets the US military deserves everything they get.

PS, well said MM
Class enemies such as Mr. Berg, who regularly traveled to 3rd-world nations to volunteer? A man who went to helped teach villagers in Ghana to make bricks, and returned emaciated because he gave themm all of his food?

Or how about when he volunteered in Africa, and returned only with the clothes on his back due to giving his possesions to needy villagers?

Or when he went to Iraq to re-establish their communication array, a vital component of rebuilding Iraqi infastructure and a non-combat contribution, something you leftist scum are always harping on the US about?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119691,00.html

Is this the portrait of your stereotype of a "horrible yankee American pig" that you stigmatize and detest so much?

Stupid commie-pukes. Some of you are as bad and as stupid as as the Islamic fundamentalist dissidents. I hope that you will meet the same fate that they eventually will.

Capitalist Imperial

12th May 2004, 16:58

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 01:24 AM
We Communists know no boundries. Countries do not divide us, and for this reason, we cannot lose. We are the largest movement in the world and are growing every day. You might think we are defeated, because "communist" regimes around the world have fallen, but nonetheless, we continue to grow every day. You might think you are winning, becuase most of the world is capitalists, but you can never succeed because you constantly fight amongst yourselves. I wonder CI, how will you level the country of a "terrorist" who does not have a country to level? Firing nuclear weapons does no good when we are right in your backyard. Shall you nuke New York city because there might be terrorists there? How would bombing innocents in Baghdad be any different? Foolish child.

I wonder what the ever enlightening CI would do should the "terrorists" have no country, something that CI clearly does not understand.

We'll assign them one. Everyone has a host nation. Besides, I was being somewhat faceteous. What I meant is that their actions will not go unanswered. To the contrary, they will be addressed tenfold.

We Communists know no boundries. Countries do not divide us, and for this reason, we cannot lose.

I wonder what certain Hungarians, Afghanis, and former eastern-bloc and Soviet citizens would think about this utter B.S. commentary. And heads up there tiger, YOU DID LOSE!!!

We are the largest movement in the world and are growing every day. You might think we are defeated, because "communist" regimes around the world have fallen, but nonetheless, we continue to grow every day.

This is simply unsubstantiated rhetoric. Do you have documentation of you claim? I submit that the communist movement is very small, and is hardly the "largest movement in the world". If anything, it is dwindling. And yes, call me crazy, but I think you are defeated because most prevalent communist regimes have fallen or are in transition towards capitalism.

You might think you are winning, becuase most of the world is capitalists, but you can never succeed because you constantly fight amongst yourselves.

Not really, globalization and increases in national GDP's is a result of cooperation.

Your post made little sense, and as a matter of fact most of your diatribe made little sense, and it was pretty much contrarian to established facts and realities. As ususal with you insipid leftist simps, meaningless and inaccurate rhetoric prevails.

From NoXion:
PS, well said MM

Well, not really. As a matter of fact, it was said very poorly.

antieverything

12th May 2004, 17:23

Decapitation is a relativley quick and painless way to die, it doesn't compare to the vile degradation and humiliation being dished out by U.S soldiers, the execution was carried out not by terrorists but freedom fighters.
Frankly, I'd rather suffer vile degradation than die in any fashion. The point isn't the anguish that this man was forced to suffer, rather it is his death being used as an instrument of terror. Putting this on the internet fits squarely into the definition of terrorism! Please don't insult the Iraqi resistance by claiming that al-Queda affiliated fundamentalists are representative of the general resistance. This is incredibly insulting and ignorant!

BuyOurEverything, I don't understand why we are having this argument. Killing a prisoner who is a civilian and then putting the video on the internet in order to intimidate American civilians...these are all war crimes! I'll bet you were furious when American tv was showing Iraqi dead in violation of international law, weren't you?

Anyway, I'll certainly admit that I'm not all that distraught about a single civilian death in a war that has already killed over 10,000 Iraqi civilians. I'm mostly pissed off that these idiots would do something so counterproductive when the scandal surrounding the torture of Iraqi prisoners was about to get even bigger! The only ray of hope in any of this is that the man's father is blaming the US military for the death of his son but reading his unconvincing statement gives me the feeling that this isn't going to cut it. Hell, the only place this is being reported is in England!

Capitalist Imperial

12th May 2004, 17:27

No, actually, foxnews.com has the story about the father as well.

Misodoctakleidist

12th May 2004, 17:34

This thread contains more stupidity than i usually witness in the space of several weeks.

dopediana

12th May 2004, 19:55

i'm rather disappointed with everyone in this thread except for antieverything and urban rubble. if you look at this politically, it practically justifies america being in iraq. i'm still amazed that the fundamentalists did something this stupid.

Loknar

12th May 2004, 20:48

People who say this mans death was painless really need to watch the clip. The man was screaming as they sawed at his neck.

NYC4Ever

12th May 2004, 21:12

He was a freelance contractor who came at his own will to help rebuild Iraq. He was snatched up by these barbarians, oh wait Im sorry by these victims that have been angered by the "occupation" of Iraq. He was killed with sheer brutality. This is beyond justification. If you even in the slightest way justify and undertand why these monsters did this than you should just give up your facade and join these "freedom fighters". I surely think Che Guevara would've jumped at the chance to join these revolutionaries. It is so damn supernatural the way nothing will sway people from their searing Anti-Americansim. Peoples hatred for America cannot be that much to want to continue their anti-war ways and leave Iraq to these people. I just want someone to be honest with me. Do you really really feel sorry for this American kid? Is it really justified in any way or sense?

Osman Ghazi

12th May 2004, 21:43

It is so damn supernatural the way nothing will sway people from their searing Anti-Americansim

Yes, I agree. I mean, keeping in mind the millions the Americans have involved themselves in the slaughter of, I find it surprising that I don't shed any tears every time an American gets killed. Admittedly though, this Nick Berg character seems like a very nice guy, if not very bright.

I mean, America warns it's citizens not to travel to Eritrea, and they are allies in this war. Why would you go into the heart of the enemy and expect to make it out alive?

antieverything

12th May 2004, 21:51

Um, Eritrea wasn't all that safe before the war. Believe me, I have a friend who has lived there (her dad was helping the Eritrean's create a legal system...entirely un-evil).

Anyhow, the attempts at shock statements by some of the cappies here do nothing but blind us from the real issue at hand.

Osman Ghazi

12th May 2004, 23:33

Well, also, the U$ gov offered him a free lift outta there but he refused which is either brave or stupid or both.

antieverything

13th May 2004, 00:02

relevance? :huh:

Osman Ghazi

13th May 2004, 00:21

Well, Islamic terrorists are going to kill Americans if they can get their hands on them. That is simple fact. Considering that, Iraq might not be the best place for unarmed Americans to be hanging around, no?

All I'm saying is that it does not surprise me in the slightest, except that he was willing to hang around an obviously dangerous place with no guns. Especially the no guns part, considering that he is American and all. ;)

Non-Sectarian Bastard!

13th May 2004, 00:22

Originally posted by Capitalist Imperial+May 11 2004, 10:38 PM--> (Capitalist Imperial @ May 11 2004, 10:38 PM)
Edward [email protected] 11 2004, 10:33 PM
You needn't worry about that CI.

Thats exactly what the the US/UK etc... have been doing all along for the past year and a half.

Mind you with attitudes like that don't start yelling your outrage when some US trained professional killer be it US army or some 'civilian contracter' ie: armed mercenaries gets the rightful response to them by the Iraqi resistence.

With your bloodbath in Falluja and many other cities beside, I feel nothing but joy when one of your soilders get blown up/shot/beheaded or any other ending they so rightfully deserve.

I only hope that thing now 'heat up' considerably and that soon will see thousands of US personal comming home to their families on body bags. Mind you that in itself is not enough, the Arab resitance needs to strike the US where it really hurts, on their own turf. I only hope to see another spectacular event in some US city like the world saw three years ago in NYC and W. DC.
Dude, they make decaf.

Anyone who wants to try someting on US Turf is welcome.

We will be happy to turn their nation into a parking lot as well. [/b]
That's your mistake.

This decapitation - which I dissaprove - hasn't been done in the name of all Iraqi's, nor do all Iraqi's approve it. Bombing innoncent civillians "We will be happy to turn their nation into a parking lot as well.", would make you the terrorist.

Making a We out of those individuals, is like saying that you're gay, because some Americans are gay or that you're knowledged, because quite some Americans on this board are knowledged. On the other hand you wouldn't like to be put in the same corner as the "three hugging hippies" which some Americans are. Once again you proof your stupidity.

Further there is no "We". There is a big difference between the US soldiers and you. You are an enthousiatic supporter standing on the side, having no risc of beeing killed, unlike the US soldiers. Who's morale is sinking with every day that passes, who's life can be ended 24/7 and having the chance to undergo the same treatment that the US Army gives Iraqi's. I should right away tell you - because you watch FOX and CNN all day - that the US Army doesn't treat the people who they have "liberated" nice.

You can play the hardlined, warsupporter, but the fact remains, that you have no idea what you're talking about. You haven't been into war. The greatest danger in your life is probaly the overfatted McDonal burgers.

mEds

13th May 2004, 00:23

all capitalists do is be greedy. that is all.

Osman Ghazi

13th May 2004, 00:26

Isn't your brother in the Navy or something CI?

antieverything

13th May 2004, 00:38

Most of what has been said in this topic recently is pretty much irrelevant.

Danton

13th May 2004, 07:50

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 05:23 PM

Decapitation is a relativley quick and painless way to die, it doesn't compare to the vile degradation and humiliation being dished out by U.S soldiers, the execution was carried out not by terrorists but freedom fighters.

Frankly, I'd rather suffer vile degradation than die in any fashion. The point isn't the anguish that this man was forced to suffer, rather it is his death being used as an instrument of terror. Putting this on the internet fits squarely into the definition of terrorism! Please don't insult the Iraqi resistance by claiming that al-Queda affiliated fundamentalists are representative of the general resistance. This is incredibly insulting and ignorant!

Well, to some of these Muslim men, who are being forced to masterbate in front of other prisoners and guards, simulate sex, forced into womens clothing, routinley beaten, attacked with dogs, humiliated, degraded on a daily basis by the sick, grotesque soldiers of the United states army, a quick death may be preferable..

I did not call the executioners representative of the Iraqi resistance, so do not attribute words to me I haven't written - I find it incredibly insulting and ignorant..Iv'e already been misquoted in this thread..
Regardless of religion, they are fighting an invading imperialist army, I did not applaud their act - I wanted to put it into perspective, this irrational overeaction is diverting attention from the real war crimes..

However well-meaning this guy may or may not have been, however innocent he is and however gruesome his death may appear to your fragile sensibilities. His murder doesn't even begin to account for the thousands of Iraqi's, combatants and civilians alike that are murdered by the real definition of terror - U.S goverment.

Danton

13th May 2004, 08:00

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 07:55 PM
if you look at this politically, it practically justifies america being in iraq. i'm still amazed that the fundamentalists did something this stupid.
Unbelivable, nothing like a decapitation to get those imperialist juices flowing - just how does this one murder justify an illegal occupation?

Severian

13th May 2004, 09:28

Allright. A little bit to show how ridulous this "religion of decapitation" crap is. Note that some of the Muslim leaders quoted are (falsely) labelled "terrorist" by the U.S.

Muslim Authorities Condemn Berg Killing

Muslim authorities at al-Azhar Seminary, the preeminent center of learning for Sunni Islam, vehemently condemned the brutal murder of Nick Berg by terrorists in Iraq, according to Sobhy Mujahid.

' "Islam respects the human being, dead or alive, and cutting off the American's head was an act of mutilation forbidden by Islam," [said] Ibrahim Al-Fayoumi, a member of Al-Azhar's Islamic Research Academy . . . '

Sobhi adds, ' Mahmoud Emara, another member of the Academy [said] "The mutilation even of enemies is rejected by Islam. A mistake could not justify another . . . " The scholar cited the respect Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) had paid to bodies in the battle of Badr when he ordered the burial of the dead irrespective of their religion. The Prophet urged his Companions on the day of Badr to be kind to their captives and treat them with clemency. '

These scholars are major voices of the Muslim mainstream. They should be listened to on such matters.

Even the much more radical Lebanese Shiite Hizbullah (Hezbollah), according to the Sydney Morning Herald, ' harshly criticised the beheading and questioned the timing of a "horrible" act which drove the torture of Iraqi prisoners by US-led forces from the headlines. "Hezbollah denounces this horrible act which does an immense wrong to Islam and Muslims by a group which falsely pretends to follow the precepts of the religion of pardon and essential human values," the party said in a statement. ' (Hizbullah, as Shiites, has nothing but contempt for the Sunni radical Zarqawi).

It adds, 'Ezzedine Salim, this month's chief of the Iraq Governing Council, insisted that "decapitations and mutilations are unacceptable and have nothing to do with Islam". '

Even the conservative and fundamentalist religious leaders in Iraq expressed the same sentiments.

Samir Haddad quotes Muthanna al-Dhari, secretary general of the Board of Muslim Clergy (a hardline Sunni organization that in the past has had members who stockpiled arms in mosques; it was a major mediating force at Fallujah). Al-Dhari ' strongly denounced the killing, saying it runs counter to the teachings of Islam and "does disservice to our religion and our cause." The Sunni scholar stressed this is a condemned operation whether carried out by Iraqis or non-Iraqis and whether the slain was a civilian or a military personnel. "Even if he was a military personnel he should be treated as a prisoner who, according to Shari'ah, must not be killed," he told IslamOnline.net. Deputy Head of the Islamic Party Iyaad Samarrai said the abhorrent treatment of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. soldiers should never give an excuse for treating U.S. prisoners the same way. "This is absolutely wrong," he told IOL, asserting that "Islam does prohibit the killing or the maltreatment of prisoners." Samarrai said such acts harm the interest of the Iraqi people and their cause to end the U.S.-led occupation.

We'll be hearing for years from the talking heads on US cable news about how the Muslim world failed to condemn what was done to Berg. It would be as though a set of high-ranking cardinals in the Vatican condemned something unreservedly and then people kept saying the Church remained silent.

From juancole.com, he's some kinda professor and can translate this stuff from the Arabic-language press if needed.

Saint-Just

13th May 2004, 10:46

In the meantime, more Iraqis will take surrogate-responsibility for this heinous act, and they will pay the price accordingly. -Capitalist Imperial

Why are the majority Iraqis deserving of any responsbility for the killing of American soldiers? I think you take joy in the killing of Iraqis whilst there is no other easy target for your anger.

Osman Ghazi

13th May 2004, 11:45

Yes, CI obviously does take joy in killing innocent Iraqis as he has stated numerous times that although the resistance aren't the majority of the population, they are the people who will be targeted for revenge killings by the U$ military.

Capitalist Imperial

13th May 2004, 16:09

Originally posted by Non-Sectarian Bastard!@May 13 2004, 12:22 AM
That's your mistake.

This decapitation - which I dissaprove - hasn't been done in the name of all Iraqi's, nor do all Iraqi's approve it. Bombing innoncent civillians "We will be happy to turn their nation into a parking lot as well.", would make you the terrorist.

Making a We out of those individuals, is like saying that you're gay, because some Americans are gay or that you're knowledged, because quite some Americans on this board are knowledged. On the other hand you wouldn't like to be put in the same corner as the "three hugging hippies" which some Americans are. Once again you proof your stupidity.

Further there is no "We". There is a big difference between the US soldiers and you. You are an enthousiatic supporter standing on the side, having no risc of beeing killed, unlike the US soldiers. Who's morale is sinking with every day that passes, who's life can be ended 24/7 and having the chance to undergo the same treatment that the US Army gives Iraqi's. I should right away tell you - because you watch FOX and CNN all day - that the US Army doesn't treat the people who they have "liberated" nice.

You can play the hardlined, warsupporter, but the fact remains, that you have no idea what you're talking about. You haven't been into war. The greatest danger in your life is probaly the overfatted McDonal burgers.
I will not entertain your obvious ignorance, or justify your uninformed and inflammatory claims regarding what I have or have not done in the service of my nation, with a respone.

Just be advised that you have absolutely no idea whqt you are talking about, and this rhetoric that you submitted can in no way be substantiated, especially with regards to your assesment of my character and personal history.

antieverything

13th May 2004, 16:48

First of all, you did attribute this action to the Iraqi Resistance, Danton, while it was actually performed by Jordanian terrorists! So, take responsibility for what you say and don't be an asshole. I wasn't trying to insult you, rather to simply correct you in your error.

Secondly, nobody is saying that this compares to US war crimes in Iraq. We are saying that it is, as an individual act, wrong. We are also saying that it was unjustifiable in the context (or in any context, really). Finally, and most importantly, we are saying that this act was incredibly counterproductive and stupid.

When ATP says that this action practically legitimates the war, she is saying that this act of brutality will legitimate the war in the eyes of the American public. The best we could hope for was a withdrawl based on popular opinion being overwhelmingly against the war and this is a huge step away from that.

Thank you.

Invader Zim

13th May 2004, 17:00

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 03:22 AM
Assuming a war (or revolution) is justified, why is executing prisoners any worse than killing soldiers in battle? The problem in this situation is not the execution of prisdoners, it's the fact that the war is not justified on either side, and the man killed was a civilian.
Executing people at your mercy is the sign of some one who should be given a good hard beating, and told to grow up.

You never heard of rehabilitation? Or are you like the right wingers and have some warped view of justice and morality?

INot to mention it makes you a complete fucking hypocrit. Do the capitalists execute leftists in modern America, for soley being leftists? No, they do not. Yet you, who claims to be a leftists, wants to execute the other side. So with that said, what morally should stop the capitalists taking you prisoner and executing you?

You know that you are actually worse than the capitalists, I hope you realise that.

Non-Sectarian Bastard!

13th May 2004, 17:12

Originally posted by Capitalist Imperial+May 13 2004, 04:09 PM--> (Capitalist Imperial @ May 13 2004, 04:09 PM)
Non-Sectarian Bastard!@May 13 2004, 12:22 AM
That's your mistake.

This decapitation - which I dissaprove - hasn't been done in the name of all Iraqi's, nor do all Iraqi's approve it. Bombing innoncent civillians "We will be happy to turn their nation into a parking lot as well.", would make you the terrorist.

Making a We out of those individuals, is like saying that you're gay, because some Americans are gay or that you're knowledged, because quite some Americans on this board are knowledged. On the other hand you wouldn't like to be put in the same corner as the "three hugging hippies" which some Americans are. Once again you proof your stupidity.

Further there is no "We". There is a big difference between the US soldiers and you. You are an enthousiatic supporter standing on the side, having no risc of beeing killed, unlike the US soldiers. Who's morale is sinking with every day that passes, who's life can be ended 24/7 and having the chance to undergo the same treatment that the US Army gives Iraqi's. I should right away tell you - because you watch FOX and CNN all day - that the US Army doesn't treat the people who they have "liberated" nice.

You can play the hardlined, warsupporter, but the fact remains, that you have no idea what you're talking about. You haven't been into war. The greatest danger in your life is probaly the overfatted McDonal burgers.
I will not entertain your obvious ignorance, or justify your uninformed and inflammatory claims regarding what I have or have not done in the service of my nation, with a respone.

Just be advised that you have absolutely no idea whqt you are talking about, and this rhetoric that you submitted can in no way be substantiated, especially with regards to your assesment of my character and personal history. [/b]
Is there any relevance in your post? Debate me, show me the irrelevance of my post.

First you support the war, so that the poor good Iraqi's can be liberated from the couple bad guys. Then you support the idea of "turn their nation into a parking lot". Concluding that the Iraqi's are actually bad people - if the Iraqi's are bad, who have you "liberated" then.

Tell me; Do you consider Iraqi's to be good people or bad?

thatCHEr

13th May 2004, 23:28

Decapitation is a relativley quick and painless way to die, it doesn't compare to the vile degradation and humiliation being dished out by U.S soldiers, the execution was carried out not by terrorists but freedom fighters.

It is not America's fault if Islam is sexually repressive. You cannot blame them for the middle east not being liberal. And it was not quick. It went on for over eight hours. Look at the clock at the start, and then the end.

Dont try and paint it as if those in the middle east have the moral high ground here. "oh its ok they only murdered him, they freedom fighters anyway, while the US did the ultimate humilation possible in their culture!!!' Sure making a person do homosexual sex acts is unpleasant, but if they see it as worse than torture and death, thats their fucking problem, get a better culture.

Lets compare the two, shall we?

Case one: Two adults having sex. Adults watching sex on TV. Children growing up with no fear of exhibiting their sexuality and no shame in a life-giving act of love.

Case two: Ending the life of a valuable individual, beloved (supposedly) by God, with limitless potential, and in posession of an immortal soul (again, supposedly).

US Position: Sex is ok, in moderation and with respect for others. Murder is not an every day occurance and grievances must be discussed and a middle ground found without resorting to casual murder; in other words, life is precious.

Islamic Position: KILL THE INFIDELS IN AMERIKKKA! WOMAN GET BACK IN THE KITCHEN! WHY AREN'T YOU FULLY COVERED?! OFF WITH HER HEAD!

Non-Sectarian Bastard!

13th May 2004, 23:41

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 11:28 PM

Decapitation is a relativley quick and painless way to die, it doesn't compare to the vile degradation and humiliation being dished out by U.S soldiers, the execution was carried out not by terrorists but freedom fighters.

It is not America's fault if Islam is sexually repressive. You cannot blame them for the middle east not being liberal. And it was not quick. It went on for over eight hours. Look at the clock at the start, and then the end.

Dont try and paint it as if those in the middle east have the moral high ground here. "oh its ok they only murdered him, they freedom fighters anyway, while the US did the ultimate humilation possible in their culture!!!' Sure making a person do homosexual sex acts is unpleasant, but if they see it as worse than torture and death, thats their fucking problem, get a better culture.

Lets compare the two, shall we?

Case one: Two adults having sex. Adults watching sex on TV. Children growing up with no fear of exhibiting their sexuality and no shame in a life-giving act of love.

Case two: Ending the life of a valuable individual, beloved (supposedly) by God, with limitless potential, and in posession of an immortal soul (again, supposedly).

US Position: Sex is ok, in moderation and with respect for others. Murder is not an every day occurance and grievances must be discussed and a middle ground found without resorting to casual murder; in other words, life is precious.

Islamic Position: KILL THE INFIDELS IN AMERIKKKA! WOMAN GET BACK IN THE KITCHEN! WHY AREN'T YOU FULLY COVERED?! OFF WITH HER HEAD!
Thatcher

"Islamic Position: KILL THE INFIDELS IN AMERIKKKA! WOMAN GET BACK IN THE KITCHEN! WHY AREN'T YOU FULLY COVERED?! OFF WITH HER HEAD!"

My parents are muslim. My mother isn't covered, she was a member of underground feminist movements, my dad has never hit my mum, my mum works, gets regurarly out of the house and yet she is MUSLIM. And on top of all she doesn't encourage or cheer when people die - no matter that they are US soldiers, Iraqi's, Taliban or whoever. It's quite remarkable, since she has several times almost been killed by the US backed Mujahideen and the pre-socialistic gov't of Afganistan.

With your cases thing. You're severly generalizing. Would it be fair that I call all Christians racists, hippies, socialists, facist because some Christians are. Whenever that you flip FOX out and see the real world, you'll notice that most muslims condem and dissaprove such fundamentalistic believes.

I can understand your anger - I have been angry for quite a while too. It's time that you overcome your anger and look deeper into issues. Afterall isn't that why you're here?

Urban Rubble

14th May 2004, 01:17

I don't have time to make a full reply. Some of you guys are fucking warped.

Cutting someone's heda off is torture, plain and simple. It is not a painless way to die and it is not comrable to getting shot in the head.

Killing a prisoner is different than killing a soldier in battle because when you kill a prisoner you are not doing it to defend yourself. If you're in a war, and an enemy soldier is armed you kill him so he can't kill you. Killing a captive man that is no threat to you goes against every law civilized society has tried to enact.

U.S soldiers torturing Iraqi's does not justify this. Have you ever heard the phrase "2 wrongs don't make a right" ? Nevermind the fact that this actually hurt the resistance much more than it helped.

I would love to go through and address the mass amounts of complete idiocy contained in this thread, but again, I don't have time. I would like to debate this with Noxion though, you little ****. Class enemy ? What ? This was a good man trying to help people, and you applaud his beheading ? You're a sick little fuck who has no business calling himself a leftist.

thatCHEr

14th May 2004, 07:19

I agree with Urban Rubble. Anyone who tries to make this less worse than what it is, or pass it off as ok, is a moron. I wonder, how many of you who defend it have actually watched it? It was not an execution. It was torture culminating in the guy having his head cut off. Slowly, might I add. Note how long they take to cut his throat. And make sure you have the sound on. Does this sound quick and painless to you?

Non-sectarian bastard, if it was the case that the majority of Muslims disapprove of this, then why are we not hearing of all the religious Islamic leaders distancing themselves from it? Perhaps because they're not.
As for whether Islam is sexually repressive or not, well people in this very thread have admitted that forcing a person to do homosexual acts is one of the worst things that can possibly be done to them. So obviously they do have conservative sexual views, if they would rather be tortured for hours and beheaded, than forced to give head.

People trying to pass this off as nothing remind me of the dumbasses you get calling for Saddam to be freed.

thatCHEr

14th May 2004, 07:31

It would be an interesting experiment, if we didn't rely a lot on the oil in the region, to completely isolate these countries. They like to blame all their problems on the west, so, how about the west have no dealings with them at all. A trade embargo, closed borders to immigrants from these countries, and no political intervention.
Who would they have to blame then for their backward, oppressive culture? Though I'm sure some way of blaming the west would be found. But still, when the countries degenerate to the point where African countries are economically superior, it would be interesting how they tried to explain it.
Could it possibly be, that their own non-secular government rule, and intolerance for minorities or diversity, could play a part in the state of these countries?

With your cases thing. You're severly generalizing. Would it be fair that I call all Christians racists, hippies, socialists, facist because some Christians are. Whenever that you flip FOX out and see the real world, you'll notice that most muslims condem and dissaprove such fundamentalistic believes
I almost missed this. Christians are not as violent, nor do they have as great support, as those Islamic fundamentalists in the middle east.
Some small groups may support the war, but I dont hear them encouraging things like the torturings and beatings occuring in Iraq. At least I didnt, until things such as this video appeared.
But even then, the majority of christians oppose it, just as they opposed the war. In fact the head of the Church of England has gone on record saying he did not support the war. The same man who has been in favour of gender rights in the Church, and gay rights, as it happens.
When was the last time an important Islamic religious leader did such a thing. Such as condemn the palestinian terrorist attacks, or encourage sexual diversity?

Danton

14th May 2004, 07:48

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 04:48 PM
First of all, you did attribute this action to the Iraqi Resistance, Danton, while it was actually performed by Jordanian terrorists!
Call me all the arseholes you want but if you are going to persist, please provide a quote where I said it was representative of the general Iraqi resistance... Obviously the resistance is made up of scores of disparate groups with disparate causes..

Counter productive?.. This is the slain Americans father as quoted on Al Jazeera..

"My son died for the sins of George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld. This administration did this," Michael Berg said in an interview on Thursday.

He also said this..

"I have a written statement from the State Department in Baghdad … saying that my son was being held by the military," he said. "I can also assure you that the FBI came to my house on 31 March and told me that the FBI had him in Mosul in an Iraqi prison."

Just how innocent is this guy? What is his real story?

It seems to me this show of defiance, this act of vengance for the horrors, ongoing being perpetrated against Muslim men and women, untried by international war is piling on the domestic pressure of the Bush administration..

There are real questions being asked about the authenticity of this video, they're saying the guy was already dead before they cut his head off, that there was a distinct lack of blood.. The timing of the thing, alleviating a bit of pressure from white trash Lynndie England et al's holiday snaps?

You, the people decide, or you could just swallow whatever CNN or the BBC tells you to belive.. But then you already have and your moral outrage at this event is indicative of your bourgois liberal attitudes..

Non-Sectarian Bastard!

14th May 2004, 10:27

Non-sectarian bastard, if it was the case that the majority of Muslims disapprove of this, then why are we not hearing of all the religious Islamic leaders distancing themselves from it? Perhaps because they're not.

[\QUOTE]

Just out of curiousity. You've a hard stance towards muslims, how many muslim do you really know. How many Muslim friends do you have.

Leaders do not per se reprent the people that they govern. It's like saying America support the war. Because Leader Bush supports the war, while the majority of Americans doesn't.

[QUOTE] As for whether Islam is sexually repressive or not, well people in this very thread have admitted that forcing a person to do homosexual acts is one of the worst things that can possibly be done to them. So obviously they do have conservative sexual views, if they would rather be tortured for hours and beheaded, than forced to give head.

It's not about homo sexaulity. I support the liberation of gays - but I do not support rape. I would even resist fucking with a girl, if it's beeing forced.

People trying to pass this off as nothing remind me of the dumbasses you get calling for Saddam to be freed.

Anti-war isn't Pro-Saddam. Unlike what CNN, Fox and the Iraqi t.v says.

It would be an interesting experiment, if we didn't rely a lot on the oil in the region, to completely isolate these countries. They like to blame all their problems on the west, so, how about the west have no dealings with them at all. A trade embargo, closed borders to immigrants from these countries, and no political intervention.
Who would they have to blame then for their backward, oppressive culture? Though I'm sure some way of blaming the west would be found. But still, when the countries degenerate to the point where African countries are economically superior, it would be interesting how they tried to explain it.
Could it possibly be, that their own non-secular government rule, and intolerance for minorities or diversity, could play a part in the state of these countries?

I find this very insulting. I am a "towelhead", my family is "towelhead", the people from the progressive feminist, socialistic, communistic and libertarian groups were all "towelheads". Their efforts to change their "retarded" world was pushed into the ground by your beloved "civilized" world. With their hugh support to Muslim Fundamentalists they smashed all hope and efforts to a new proggressive society.

Still to this day, socialistic, feministic and all progressive groups are beeing repressed in Arab countries with help from the US. Same thing is now happening in Iraq and Afganistan again. I hope that you're understanding enough, to understand that I am feeling insulted. I will not report you tough.

Christians are not violent? How violent people are is not a matter of religion, they are only justifying their acts with religion. Just like the people on the vid did, so did the KKK and do the Christian American torturers of Iraqi's. Night lynch parties, decapitation of "negroes", burning of houses, systemmaticlly terrifying. Christians not violent?! :rolleyes:

Urban Rubble

14th May 2004, 14:57

You, the people decide, or you could just swallow whatever CNN or the BBC tells you to belive.. But then you already have and your moral outrage at this event is indicative of your bourgois liberal attitudes..

Jesus Christ Danton, this is really suprising coming from you.

So, being outraged that a man had his head cut off with a knife makes me a "liberal bourgeoise" ? What the fuck are you talking about ? So anyone who doesn't support beheadings must be a member of the bourgeoise class ? Well, I guess I should put it on the record that I take an anti-beheading stance. I know that's pretty bold of me, but damn, I guess I just don't think torture is "cool".

Please, explain how being opposed to torure makes me liberal or bourgeroise ? I work 50 hours a week as a construction worker. I hve little money in the bank and little possessions. I am such a fat cat bourgeoise bastard, up here on on easy street living it up. What an ignorant bunch of shit.

And when I see a video of a man having his head cut off, it's pretty hard to think that it isn't real. I prefer to believe my eyes instead of idiotic conspiracy theories.

Danton

14th May 2004, 15:33

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 14 2004, 02:57 PM
So anyone who doesn't support beheadings must be a member of the bourgeoise class?
Now where did I say that?

It's just a shame that liberals such as yourself get so worked up over one dipstick who was in a fucking hostile warzone, whatever his intentions - mainly because of the method in which he was murdered, perhaps if he had been smart bombed like hundreds of Iraqi's are weekly it wouldn't offend you so much, get your priorities straight, one yank is not equvilent of however many hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's murdered by your fascist, sadistic goverment.. He was killed by the U.S administration like his father admits. It was a direct response to the abuse your goverment sanctioned via the CIA..

Torture isn't cool, unless your a yanqui soldier that is.. Experts in modern torture specifically designed for use against Muslims, systematically and unrelentingly..

Intifada

14th May 2004, 15:43

DSCH: religion of rape? :rolleyes:

link (http://aztlan.net/iraqi_women_raped.htm)

you may not like what you see on that link so beware.

NYC4Ever

14th May 2004, 16:24

omg, I cannot believe you actually posted that crap. Those are proven fakes. :rolleyes:

Intifada

14th May 2004, 16:27

Those are proven fakes.

prove to me that they are fakes.

and anyway i have seen other photos of prisoners raping iraqis and sexually abusing them.

NYC4Ever

14th May 2004, 16:32

I'm gonna give you the benefit here. I'm going to give you a post to explain these pics. Tell me how activist Sadiki Kambon got a hold of these and why? You have one post...

NYC4Ever

14th May 2004, 17:29

Ok, times up. First off those uniforms are of green camo. Why would soldiers have green camo uniforms in the desert. Plus they aren't even real US uniforms? And why would they wear face paint? These photos are from a Sex in War porn site. Sadiki Kambon, an activist for the Black Community Information Center, recieved the photos from Akbar Muhammad, a representative for the Nation of Islam. :rolleyes: You already know where this is going. The pics were publised in several Arab newspapers and even the Boston Globe.

Globe Representative statement:
The Globe should not have run the photo. It appeared as the result of a miscommunication between photo staffers, and a collapse of the usual "checks and balances" system. In my next column I will provide a more detailed explanation of how this lamentable mistake happened.
Sincerely,

Chris Chinlund
Globe Ombud

They're fake. You got this from an Aztlan website? <_< C'mon!

thatCHEr

14th May 2004, 17:32

Just out of curiousity. You've a hard stance towards muslims, how many muslim do you really know. How many Muslim friends do you have.
Religious wise? There is a couple I see now and then. I wouldnt say I am friends with them though.

Leaders do not per se reprent the people that they govern. It's like saying America support the war. Because Leader Bush supports the war, while the majority of Americans doesn't.

We are not talking about political leaders here. We're talking about religious leaders. Who do have popular support. If they didnt, their denominations would be insignificant.

It's not about homo sexaulity. I support the liberation of gays - but I do not support rape. I would even resist fucking with a girl, if it's beeing forced.
You're missing the point. It has been stated that the Iraqi abuses are worse than this beheading, because people were forced to do sexual acts which is very bad in their culture. My point is that if they are in a culture where this is seen as worse than death, then it is a sexually conservative culture.
In most countries though it has been agreed upon that torture and death is worse than homosexual rape. Therefore you cannot use the argument that the beheading is ok, just because Islamic culture is sexually backwards.
Which it is. Either Islamic culture is sexually backwards, or people in this thread are wrong and the sexual degradation in the Iraqi prisons is not seen as worse than death.

Anti-war isn't Pro-Saddam. Unlike what CNN, Fox and the Iraqi t.v says
Again you're misinterpreting what I said. I am referring to those who are trying to claim the torture and beheading of an innocent man is acceptable. It is ridiculous, as ridiculous as those who want to free Saddam.

I find this very insulting. I am a "towelhead", my family is "towelhead", the people from the progressive feminist, socialistic, communistic and libertarian groups were all "towelheads". Their efforts to change their "retarded" world was pushed into the ground by your beloved "civilized" world. With their hugh support to Muslim Fundamentalists they smashed all hope and efforts to a new proggressive society.
Quit trying to make it look like I am calling you a towelhead or retarded. Though if you have to resort to misquoting me then hey who knows.

Still to this day, socialistic, feministic and all progressive groups are beeing repressed in Arab countries with help from the US. Same thing is now happening in Iraq and Afganistan again. I hope that you're understanding enough, to understand that I am feeling insulted. I will not report you tough.
Good for them. I suggested we remove all links with the middle east. That would include any financial aid these governments get from countries. Completely isolate the region.
All of its problems are blamed on the west, so why dont we?

Christians are not violent? How violent people are is not a matter of religion, they are only justifying their acts with religion. Just like the people on the vid did, so did the KKK and do the Christian American torturers of Iraqi's. Night lynch parties, decapitation of "negroes", burning of houses, systemmaticlly terrifying. Christians not violent
More Muslims are violent and commit violent acts in the name of their religion than Christians. The christian fundamentalist groups are far less active than the Islamic ones. While in the past christianity has been rather barbaric, now it is quite progressive, when compared to mainstream Islam.
As I said, have any Muslim clerics came out in opposition of the terrorist attacks on Israel, or innocent people such as this man? No. In christianity some small groups do also support violence, but most are pacifist. In fact in some cases such as liberation theology it is Marxist.
As for the christian torturers in Iraq: religious organisations have condemned the acts, as has the governments of the countries they represent.

NYC4Ever

14th May 2004, 17:46

ThatCher,
They will always miss the point. Any Christian fundamentalist groups deviate from their beliefs as while Muslim extremists obey their beliefs. Has anyone read the Hamas chapter in here? It's considered Muslim law in Palestine. If a radical Islamic cleric comes out and tells people to lead an army, hundred of followers react. Christian American tortuers? Not all Americans are Christians. You guys make it seem as if Christianity is a soley western thing, when in fact the belief sprung from the middle east. Goodness, you guys will believe anything as long as it is anti-American.

Invader Zim

14th May 2004, 19:00

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 09:10 AM
Urban Rubble

You won't get any *****ing from me when a U.S soldier dies in Iraq. It's sad, but he shouldn't have been there. However, beheading people, dragging them through the streets, torture, these things are not acceptable punishment for any human, I don't care how bad of a crime they have committed.

antieverything

Well, executing prisoners is wrong by itself. Beheading them and releasing the video is depraved.

I can't believe what a fucking bunch of pussy liberals we have on this board. Why the fuck do you have compassion for our class enemies?

The more 'transfer tubes' that start coming back to the US, the better.
How is releasing a video of an execution 'depraved'? It doesn't change the fact that it happened. If you your poor little eyes are too sensitive for such stuff then don't watch it. Simple, rather like you are.

Personally I think he deserved it. Anyone who aids and abets the US military deserves everything they get.

PS, well said MM
I do so dispise ignorant fools, especially the ones who like to use the word "liberals", as if they actually have any concept of the word.

The very act of executing a prisoner is depraved, what makes it worse is filming that depraved act in order to gain political support from fundermentalists.

I do hope that you one day deside to think before you post, though I will not hold my breath in anticipation.

Anyone who aids and abets the US military deserves everything they get.

You pay taxes, you are funding the military with those taxes, you are aiding and abetting the US military.

Moron

Urban Rubble

14th May 2004, 19:06

Now where did I say that?

You called us "bourgeoise liberals" because I was pissed that someone got their head cut off.

It's just a shame that liberals such as yourself get so worked up over one dipstick who was in a fucking hostile warzone, whatever his intentions - mainly because of the method in which he was murdered, perhaps if he had been smart bombed like hundreds of Iraqi's are weekly it wouldn't offend you so much, get your priorities straight, one yank is not equvilent of however many hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's murdered by your fascist, sadistic goverment..

Alright Dr. Runonsentence, chill the fuck out.

Yes, you're right, it was dumb of him to be in a warzone, I agree. But that doesn't mean he deserved what happened to him.

Also, if you would stop the character assassination bullshit, you'd know that I've made countless posts in outrage at the things that U.S soldiers are doing in Iraq. So, you think that because a bunch of idiot American soldiers are committing attrocities, that it's O.K for others to do the same ? Nice logic dipshit.

And I never said it was equivlent, why are you trying to paint me as something I am not ? What does one have to do with the other ? Torture is torture, it does not fucking matter what the motivation is.

He was killed by the U.S administration like his father admits. It was a direct response to the abuse your goverment sanctioned via the CIA..

Oh, his father implied the U.S killed him, that's all the proof I need. I'm sure his Dad really has all the info. I love how some idiots will swallow any conspiracy theory as long as it's slightly believeable and serves their own beliefs.

Torture isn't cool, unless your a yanqui soldier that is.. Experts in modern torture specifically designed for use against Muslims, systematically and unrelentingly..

Why do you act like I condone what U.S soldiers are doing ? Show me one godamned post where I condone that shit.

Oh, and I'm sure Muslims never systematically tortured anyone. That never happens in every fucking Muslim theocracy in the Middle East. Those pieces of shit are just as bad, as not worse as the U.S is, just less powerful.

Which btings me to another point, what part of "Muslim theocracy" don't you understand ? You do realize, that if these guys succeed, Iraq will turn into another muslim theocracy. If you think that is any better than living under Capitalism you're more ignorant than this thread has already proved.

Oh, and please explain what makes me bourgeoise or liberal ? Seeing as how I'm one of the few people on here who is an actual proletarian, I find it hilarious that you call me "bourgeoise". What do you do for a living Danton ? Do you work ? Do you live with Mommy and Daddy ?

antieverything

14th May 2004, 19:27

It is certainly a shame that this thread has so many tangents being pursued right now by so many different people. It makes it a bit hard to get everything in order and put together a relevant response but, oh well...

He was killed by the U.S administration like his father admits. It was a direct response to the abuse your goverment sanctioned via the CIA..
I've already addressed this issue before. His father's grief-stricken and largely non-sensical lamentations are not going to do a damn thing to sway public opinion. The image of his execution has already been inprinted into the public's collective eye. The damage has been done. You actually act as if people follow the news enough to know that his father blames Bush in the first place! Besides, connecting the dots between Bush's policies and this man's execution is one hell of an undertaking...not only is the connection hazy but it is also way to vague for most people to bother with. As far as most people are concerned, "they" killed him, not Bush. And also as far as most people are concerned, this just proves that "they" are "barbarians" and anything we do to "them" was deserved.

antieverything

14th May 2004, 19:37

the execution was carried out not by terrorists but freedom fighters
There, Danton, you try to frame this incident in terms of national liberation while in reality it was performed by operatives of an organization that aims to kill as many American civilians as possible!

Non-Sectarian Bastard!

14th May 2004, 20:37

QUOTE
Just out of curiousity. You've a hard stance towards muslims, how many muslim do you really know. How many Muslim friends do you have.

Religious wise? There is a couple I see now and then. I wouldnt say I am friends with them though.

Try to talk to a couple of muslims, about their believes. I think it would widden your horizon, so to speak.

QUOTE

NSB: Leaders do not per se reprent the people that they govern. It's like saying America support the war. Because Leader Bush supports the war, while the majority of Americans doesn't.

TC: We are not talking about political leaders here. We're talking about religious leaders. Who do have popular support. If they didnt, their denominations would be insignificant.

NSB: A lot of people are pissed at "The Americans". I say The Americans on porpuse, because many people are ignorant about others too - just like you. Their anger results in blind killing, it becomes their main goal. They loose touch with reality, they don't think about the future anymore. They organize, seek soulmates - with who would they unite? The Communist who says that the enemy - USA - isn't actually the enemy, but it's their leaders and bosses or the right winged morons who scream for revenge, murder and "turning their country into a parking lot" - Capitalist Imperial.

Enemies have only 2 options, peace or extinction. How many dead people can you take? How many more pictures and videos? Unlike your hard stance, you're not a "hard" one. I myself, wasn't shocked when I saw the video of decapitation, but unlike you I do understand war and know how terrible it is, you on the other hand have no idea. That video is nothing compared to living in a war. It's sounds odd, but the poor bastard is lucky. His 2 minutes of pain are nothing compared to those who suffer, mentally and pysically for decades and decades. Who life and die in war. Imagine that - a life in war. It would do me great pleasure if you would try to talk to a civilian who has been for a longer period in war.

Like I said, religion is used as an excuse for barbaric deeds. Why religous leaders are populair? Because they are the people who tell and "confirm" to the excecutors of barbaric acts, that they have done "the right thing". Persons who "justify" the barbaric deeds with religion - short said.

QUOTE
It's not about homo sexaulity. I support the liberation of gays - but I do not support rape. I would even resist fucking with a girl, if it's beeing forced.

TC: You're missing the point. It has been stated that the Iraqi abuses are worse than this beheading, because people were forced to do sexual acts which is very bad in their culture. My point is that if they are in a culture where this is seen as worse than death, then it is a sexually conservative culture.
In most countries though it has been agreed upon that torture and death is worse than homosexual rape. Therefore you cannot use the argument that the beheading is ok, just because Islamic culture is sexually backwards.
Which it is. Either Islamic culture is sexually backwards, or people in this thread are wrong and the sexual degradation in the Iraqi prisons is not seen as worse than death.

NSB: Most people in Arab countries are against homo sexuality, that's true. What's your point? You should try to see further then a "We vs Them" situation. If someone is uneducated, you should try to teach him, not despise him. If people would have had your attitude while trying to proggress the European societies on Gayism - then we would still have an Europe where homo sexuality was banned and not socially accepted. Battle through education not fists!

QUOTE
Anti-war isn't Pro-Saddam. Unlike what CNN, Fox and the Iraqi t.v says

TC: Again you're misinterpreting what I said. I am referring to those who are trying to claim the torture and beheading of an innocent man is acceptable. It is ridiculous, as ridiculous as those who want to free Saddam.

NSB: Aight. My mistake.

QUOTE
I find this very insulting. I am a "towelhead", my family is "towelhead", the people from the progressive feminist, socialistic, communistic and libertarian groups were all "towelheads". Their efforts to change their "retarded" world was pushed into the ground by your beloved "civilized" world. With their hugh support to Muslim Fundamentalists they smashed all hope and efforts to a new proggressive society.

TC:Quit trying to make it look like I am calling you a towelhead or retarded. Though if you have to resort to misquoting me then hey who knows.

NSB: You're talking about the Islamic people like they are retarded.

QUOTE
Still to this day, socialistic, feministic and all progressive groups are beeing repressed in Arab countries with help from the US. Same thing is now happening in Iraq and Afganistan again. I hope that you're understanding enough, to understand that I am feeling insulted. I will not report you tough.

TC: Good for them. I suggested we remove all links with the middle east. That would include any financial aid these governments get from countries. Completely isolate the region.
All of its problems are blamed on the west, so why dont we?

NSB: Oh My Allah - so to speak. Like I have said before. Education! Education! Education! Where do we stand as humans if we quit educating ignorant people and stop learning. A flat earth, no women-, gay- or rights for ethnic minorities. Isolation of the region :lol: If you believe that your views are better views, then convince them. Convince me.

QUOTE

Christians are not violent? How violent people are is not a matter of religion, they are only justifying their acts with religion. Just like the people on the vid did, so did the KKK and do the Christian American torturers of Iraqi's. Night lynch parties, decapitation of "negroes", burning of houses, systemmaticlly terrifying. Christians not violent

TC: More Muslims are violent and commit violent acts in the name of their religion than Christians. The christian fundamentalist groups are far less active than the Islamic ones. While in the past christianity has been rather barbaric, now it is quite progressive, when compared to mainstream Islam.
As I said, have any Muslim clerics came out in opposition of the terrorist attacks on Israel, or innocent people such as this man? No. In christianity some small groups do also support violence, but most are pacifist. In fact in some cases such as liberation theology it is Marxist.

NSB: Again dont see it as "We vs. Them". Don't see it as Christian vs. Muslim. The Bushies could be friends with Saddam and the Osama family. Religion didn't bother them. They unite for profits, let us unite for our common interrests.

TC: As for the christian torturers in Iraq: religious organisations have condemned the acts, as has the governments of the countries they represent.

I don't know about the US, but in Holland and Europe Muslim organisations did condem the barbaric acts, of both sides.

Christian and Jewish fundamentalistic groups don't have to exist or act. There are already organisations; US Army and IDF. If you blow up people with Mavericks or Suicidebombers - they're dead, that's what counts. Because the US Army and IDF wage wars in mostly Muslimic area's, it's "party" time for Christian and Jewish fundamentalists.

With pointing out Christian barbaric acts, I tried to show you that religion isn't the maincase. It's merely an excuse for barbaric acts.

Commie Girl

14th May 2004, 23:28

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2004, 11:32 AM
More Muslims are violent and commit violent acts in the name of their religion than Christians. The christian fundamentalist groups are far less active than the Islamic ones. While in the past christianity has been rather barbaric, now it is quite progressive, when compared to mainstream Islam.

Where do you get this warped information? There are many wars being fought in the name of Christianity ie: Northern Ireland and the past is full of the glorious victories of religion...like the CRUSADES. Christian fundamentalist groups are more of a threat to the Western world than Islamic Fundamentalists, take a look at the people in charge of the U$. :wacko:

Capitalist Imperial

14th May 2004, 23:49

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2004, 11:28 PM
Christian fundamentalist groups are more of a threat to the Western world than Islamic Fundamentalists
what an absolute stupid idiot

Commie Girl

15th May 2004, 00:00

Originally posted by Capitalist Imperial+May 14 2004, 05:49 PM--> (Capitalist Imperial @ May 14 2004, 05:49 PM)
[email protected] 14 2004, 11:28 PM
Christian fundamentalist groups are more of a threat to the Western world than Islamic Fundamentalists
what an absolute stupid idiot [/b]
:P Smart reply

Capitalist Imperial

15th May 2004, 00:02

That is all that this trite pap deserves.

Danton

17th May 2004, 13:04

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 14 2004, 07:06 PM
Oh, his father implied the U.S killed him, that's all the proof I need. I'm sure his Dad really has all the info. I love how some idiots will swallow any conspiracy theory as long as it's slightly believeable and serves their own beliefs.

I'm sure his Dad has a lot more info than you, his son was murdered by the Bush administration, he says it, I agree - Indirectly, (U.S foreign policy killed him) - So apparently, do an ever increasing number of your countrymen...I love how some dumb fucking idiots won't beleive anything unless it comes from the ususal sources...

I understand fully well what a Muslim theocracy is, if you think that to Iraqi's that's worse than imposed "democratic" capitalism your more of a bigoted, imperialist pig than this thread has already revealed..

For the record, despite being mis-quoted several times, I never condoned the murder, only wished to put it into perspective but as we can see by the hysterical, reactionary posts of Urban Rubble and others, it seems as ever that National considerations come before those of class, "Barbarians" they chant like squeamish old women as thier bombs continue to drop in Iraq..

That is what makes you a fickle, borgeois liberal, not your apparent economic shortcomings, shame you decided to get personal and insult me, I always thought you were cool, oh well!

Since your so interested Iv'e worked for the last ten years and own my house, I left home when I was 16.. The amount of money you have does'nt define your political stance, it's how you react and interpret events such as this..

Danton

17th May 2004, 13:14

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2004, 07:27 PM

He was killed by the U.S administration like his father admits. It was a direct response to the abuse your goverment sanctioned via the CIA..
I've already addressed this issue before. His father's grief-stricken and largely non-sensical lamentations are not going to do a damn thing to sway public opinion. The image of his execution has already been inprinted into the public's collective eye. The damage has been done. You actually act as if people follow the news enough to know that his father blames Bush in the first place! Besides, connecting the dots between Bush's policies and this man's execution is one hell of an undertaking...not only is the connection hazy but it is also way to vague for most people to bother with. As far as most people are concerned, "they" killed him, not Bush. And also as far as most people are concerned, this just proves that "they" are "barbarians" and anything we do to "them" was deserved.
Well, if the general population is that ignorant then inevitably, more heads will roll..
To my knowledge though there is a growing tide of anti-Bush, anti-war sentiment in the states, there are several factors causing this, the increased hostilities in Iraq, the photo's of U.S soldiers brazenly torturing Iraqi's, Europe's mounting oppposition and of course the odd beheading..

thatCHEr

17th May 2004, 16:11

That is what makes you a fickle, borgeois liberal, not your apparent economic shortcomings, shame you decided to get personal and insult me, I always thought you were cool, oh well!

ZING! Urban rubble you damn liberal you. Hey Danton, you realise being liberal has nothing to do with economic divisions, such as command economy vs market economy, yes? It is concerned only with social policy, and how progressive that should be.
So why you use liberal as an insult I dont know. You Marxists are opposed to social conservatism I thought. But hey maybe thats why you think this beheading is justified considering what else has happened.

Where do you get this warped information? There are many wars being fought in the name of Christianity ie: Northern Ireland and the past is full of the glorious victories of religion...like the CRUSADES. Christian fundamentalist groups are more of a threat to the Western world than Islamic Fundamentalists, take a look at the people in charge of the U$
Hey err, can you even read? Judging by this and previous posts of yours I doubt it. I have already said christianity was more conservative in the past, but now is fairly progressive. The crusades ended long ago fuckwit, and Northern Ireland was not fought in the name of christianity, as both groups are christian.
And as I also have already said, Islamic fundamentalist groups are far more active than the few christian based ones that exist. And where the christian ones do exist, they are not supported by mainstream christianity. This is not the case with Islam.
The US administrations policies are nothing to do with religion. The US is a secular state, so while people may personally be religious, this does not then mean policies are made in response to it.

non-sectarian bastard:

A lot of people are pissed at "The Americans". I say The Americans on porpuse, because many people are ignorant about others too - just like you
Exactly. So the majority of them do support this beheading, and their religious leaders do represent them, like I initially said. The rest of the response is irrelevant, the point was that the major Islamic groups support what happened, and have sexually conservative views. The population follows these denominations(hence they are major), and thus agrees with the views.

His 2 minutes of pain
The video shows a clocks hands skipping eight hours between the start and finish.

His 2 minutes of pain are nothing compared to those who suffer, mentally and pysically for decades and decades. Who life and die in war.
An eye for an eye? Sounds like that conservative Islamic culture rearing its head again. The suffering of others do not make it ok to capture torture and kill an innocent civilian such as this man.

Like I said, religion is used as an excuse for barbaric deeds. Why religous leaders are populair? Because they are the people who tell and "confirm" to the excecutors of barbaric acts, that they have done "the right thing". Persons who "justify" the barbaric deeds with religion - short said.
indeed, but this doesn't change that this act was wrong and in the eyes of modern morality worse than the sexual humilation at the Iraqi prisons. On an individual scale of course.

: Most people in Arab countries are against homo sexuality, that's true. What's your point?
The point is that their social conservatism is what makes the events at Abu Ghazi(sp?) worse than beheading a man. But this is their own fault for having such anti-homosexual views. We are not responsible for their culture.

If someone is uneducated, you should try to teach him, not despise him
Well it seems to me that what those in the middle east want most is us having nothing to do with them, not educating them. So let them have this, I say.

You're talking about the Islamic people like they are retarded.
If that has been your impression sorry, but its not what I think. I do however think their culture is unacceptable socially conservative. This isnt a marxist or capitalist economic issue, its an issue of liberalism and freedom, and secularization.

I don't know about the US, but in Holland and Europe Muslim organisations did condem the barbaric acts, of both sides.
These arent the major middle eastern Islamic groups though. What those in the west say isnt important, those in the middle east are represented by the religious organisations around them.

Christian and Jewish fundamentalistic groups don't have to exist or act. There are already organisations; US Army and IDF.
Like I've said to the hamas wannabe, they're not acting on religious grounds, but economic or security grounds.

antieverything

17th May 2004, 18:04

You aknowledged my statement but did very little to address it. Yes, there is a growing tide of anti-war sentiment. It was growing before all the beheading and was luckily powerful enough to plow over the pro-war sentiment this beheading could have created...thanks to the media's predictable attempts to make things sensational in this case by implicating Rumsfeld in these particular circumstances using hazy links. I'm not saying the media is wrong however I am saying they don't have the proof to say the things they are saying yet.

Vinny Rafarino

17th May 2004, 18:42

You Marxists are opposed to social conservatism I thought. But hey maybe thats why you think this beheading is justified considering what else has happened.

Not exactly Thatcher, like your answer to Danton and Rubble in this specific post, Marxism has very little to do with social policy. Much like "liberal" and "conservative" labels, there are several different social ideologies within the Marxist platform...only the names themselves are changed.

I would imagine this is simply due to individuals within the Marxist community wanting to separate themselves from capitalism, all the way down to the language.
Psychologically, this is a very common phenomenon.

Marxist (generally) consider socially "conservative" marxists to be "authoritarian" while more "liberal" marxists are considered "anarcho" something or other. As with capitalistm, this really only scratches the surface of social rhetoric and policy, but it must be recognised that occasionally old dogs would rather just chew their bones rather that learn to jump through hoops.

thatCHEr

17th May 2004, 19:01

Ah, right. But I thought authoritarian was more to do with being a command economy or lack of democracy, and anarcho a type of free market where no government at all exists. Maybe it means something different within the Marxist ideology though. But going on my initial definitions there I dont see how its to do with social issues.
Also Marxism is based on the idea of equality, that makes being opposed to rights for minorities, sexual equality, etc quite hard to justify I would think. It being those kind of things which characterize liberalism.

Vinny Rafarino

17th May 2004, 20:23

[/QUOTE]Ah, right. But I thought authoritarian was more to do with being a command economy or lack of democracy, and anarcho a type of free market where no government at all exists. Maybe it means something different within the Marxist ideology though. But going on my initial definitions there I dont see how its to do with social issues.
Also Marxism is based on the idea of equality, that makes being opposed to rights for minorities, sexual equality, etc quite hard to justify I would think. It being those kind of things which characterize liberalism[QUOTE]

Marxism itself is a guideline on how to obtain a communist society. Once the transition to communism is complete, there will be no state, no monetary sytem and no class system.

"How" we get to this period is what is debatable. Like the capitalist platform, many different communist parties have different ideas on how this is to be achieved. Communists like myself believe that extreme suppression of the former ruling class with strict social economic policies that use current market rates to assess value to their goods and services is the only way to ensure that the following generations will be able to make the trasition to communism without being influenced by capitalist subversionism.

During the socialist period, the state will retain a portion of the surplus value extracted from goods and services to pay for social policies like healthcare, housing, food distribution, transportation and technological advancement. A portion will also be retained by the state to be used in the event of natural disasters. The majority of the surplus value extracted from goods and services will be paid directly to the workers. This is what those with a limited grasp of political and economic applications label as "authoritarian".

It's a bit more complicated then this, but I think you get picture.

"Anarcho" communists tend to feel that the people themselves can maintain all of these policies (or similar ones) without the need for severe suppression of the former ruling class or a centralised governmental body. (An ideology I find to be infantile at best)

We must also consider (much like capitalist politics) that there will always be those that have a "different" idea on "what they should be labelled.

Once the time comes, we will all unite under one specific ideology, just like capitalists unite together under economic policy. When you get down to brass tax, all capitalists will agree on one thing, the advancement of the free market platform.

The political and economic spectrums may be different, but the same rules tend to apply.