Capitalism made the holocaust.

[Raisa]

I had an epiphany today when I was speaking to this old refugee from world war 2
I have never thought of it this way, but I would like to present this to you and you tell me what you think.

This is not about Anti- Semitism, this is about when a race is a class.

After the first world war, germans were VERY poor. Because of poverty there was already alot of angst. There were an awful lot of poor german people.
Now, while all jews were not ritch, alot of the upperclass was jewish. And alot of germans were pissed that the upperclass would leave them like that. Now we knoe that in capitalism.. no one said they have to care. Usually they dont. They'll eat big dinners and talk about "politics" and enjoy a peacefull sleep while their is struggle in the streets.
Do you know what this situation parallels? Think about how in the USA, how you hear blacks say they hate whites. Think about who makes the upperclass in the USA. While there is plenty of poor whites..... most of the upperclass is predominantly white. And it was even worse before. Alot of times the upperclass justifies the struggle of the poor,they see it, but they dont see what is wrong with it. And this kind of burgoeis, luxurious ignorance, angered alot of african americans, like Malcom X, to the point where they hated whites, when it was really the ignorance of the upperclass.
This is when a race becomes a class.
People's rage for the upperclass is eclipsed by racism, when in fact their really pissed at the neglegence and opression of the ruling classes.

[DaCuBaN]

I agree to some extent - I'd be interested to hear what you thought of the inverse. Is the racism inherint in the 'White Bourgious' (that I see every day in this part of the UK) toward the 'Poor Niggers' purely racism? or is it in fact founded in their conviction that they are in positions of superiority in our society?

[Funky Monk]

I think genocide stretches back a lot further than the dawn of capitalism.

[Morpheus]

Many of the people killed in the holocaust were communists, socialists or other radical leftists. It wasn't just jews.

[Raisa]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 01:36 AM
Many of the people killed in the holocaust were communists, socialists or other radical leftists. It wasn't just jews.
Yes this is very true, there were all kinds of other people involved. we all know why they choose to kill leftists for, but people to this day want to know what reasons a race can become such a target, and its important to think about so this kind of thing can stop. I think it makes it even worse when an economic class is predomanantly one group of people.

[mEds]

I'm sorry but what CAUSED the holocaust was Fascism. Ultra, nationalism, gullable people, racist people, sem-capitalists and ignorance ;)

[Subversive Pessimist]

Why didn't you bring up the homosexuals, gypsys, blacks, the communists, or the other radical-leftists?

I'm pretty irritated about this whole jew thing, while nobody think of the other victims. There were OTHER victims, for christ sake!

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 08:16 PM
Now, while all jews were not ritch, alot of the upperclass was jewish. And alot of germans were pissed that the upperclass would leave them like that.
A lot more of the upperclass were Christian. A lot more of the Jews were working-class or middle-class.

Yes, "National Socialism" channeled anticapitalist anger against the Jews. Absolutely. Many people before you have pointed this out. But this was misdirected anger. Turned to the service of the ruling-class, to smash the labor movement.

No, the Jews were not a class in 1930s Germany. Absolutely not. Not even comparable in class composition to Jews in the U.S. today, who are mostly middle-class professionals - dentists, lawyers, and whatnot - during the 30s there were a lot of Jewish workers. Nazi propaganda identified "the Jews" with capitalism but this was false.

Why were they scapegoated? Primarily because Hitler needed a scapegoat. Really. If there weren't any Jews, it woulda been someone else, and it actually was a number of other groups too.

There are some reasons why Jews were an easy target for scapegoating....

Now if you go further back in history, Jews were a class - in The Jewish Question: A Marxist Interpretation by Abram Leon he calls this a people-class. Leon, BTW, died in Auschwitz, both for being a Jew and for being a communist.

Many pre-capitalist societies assign commercial functions to a distinct nationality, caste, or religious group. This is because commerce - trade, the market - is peripheral to the main economy and because the landowners depise and feel threatened by merchants and moneylenders.

In the Muslim countries, this included both Jews and Christians, esp Armenians; in Southeast Asia, the overseas Chinese; Arabs and Indians in much of Africa even today. In Europe, this function was assigned to Jews; they were prohibited from following some other professions and Christians were limited from following "Jewish" occupations, esp moneylending.

This ended with the rise of capitalism and the development of a mostly-Christian capitalist class. Some Jews adapted and became part of the capitalist class, and became more and more assimilated in Western Europe. It was mostly continued immigration of East European Jews that kept a separate Jewish identity alive in Western Europe.

But prejudices and hostility towards Jews, left over from the Middle Ages, remained. The vague idea that Jews = money persisted. This made the Jews an easy target for scapegoating and phony anticapitalism - as Bebel said, anti-semitism is the socialism of fools.

Jews remain a potential target for this kind of phony anticapitalism today....so let's keep firmly in mind that it's phony.

Incidentally, the Roma/gypsies, another target of Nazi genocide, were also a people-class historically....they travelled around and did various jobs like horse-trading, copper-smithing, playing music. In Romania they were enslaved.



Do you know what this situation parallels? Think about how in the USA, how you hear blacks say they hate whites. Think about who makes the upperclass in the USA. While there is plenty of poor whites..... most of the upperclass is predominantly white.

I think this is a bad parallel. Because the German upperclass was not majority Jewish.

If it the Jews really were as wealthy and powerful as Hitler claimed, he could not have successfully scapegoated them. The Nazis in fact depended on the support of the German capitalist class to take power and go after the working-class movement, Jews, etc.

Black people in the U.S. are another people-class historically - they were slaves. And today, are overwhelmingly working-class. Yes, Black workers have often been angry about their oppression. But this is nothing like the resentment, racist hatred, and frustrated sense of entitlement of the German middle class during the 30s against their supposed Jewish "oppressors". Malcolm X was nothing like Hitler.

You want something today like the resentment of the Jewish 'upperclass" in 30s Germany? Think of a Rush Limbaugh listener who's convinced that Blacks, women and homosexuals have all the rights in America today and that white males like himself are discriminated against now. That'd be closer.

[Raisa]

Why were they scapegoated? Primarily because Hitler needed a scapegoat. Really. If there weren't any Jews, it woulda been someone else, and it actually was a number of other groups too.

And those groups were scape goated. People having issues with the jews goes way back into german history, it was probably just rekindled at that time. So much for fake peace!

<<If it the Jews really were as wealthy and powerful as Hitler claimed, he could not have successfully scapegoated them. >>

excellent point&#33;

<<You want something today like the resentment of the Jewish &#39;upperclass" in 30s Germany? Think of a Rush Limbaugh listener who&#39;s convinced that Blacks, women and homosexuals have all the rights in America today and that white males like himself are discriminated against now. That&#39;d be closer.>>

This would be alot better.

But never the less, I wasnt trying to imply that this people-class thing CAUSED the holocaust, but that it made the persecution of the jews alot easyer, whether it was true or not.
Im grateful for every one expanding on my idea, becasue as long as there are people-classes....or the resemblence or illusion of one, that is just another way to racism. Hitler did try to take the socialistic platform. The 30&#39;s was a time of workers fighting for their rights, and knowing there was communism in germany Hitler exploited that i think by arising common people&#39;s anti-capitalist ferver at the time and at the same time managing to harness peoples reactionary fear since they were at a trying time for their country blah blah blah.......
thank you very much for debating this idea with me. I never fell in love with the idea, but I thought it was important to talk about.I appriciate every one&#39;s words. Thank you.

[Reuben]

This post is fundamentally fawed by the fact that the Naxi&#39;s policy towards the jews in poland (a predominatly impoverished community) was just as brutal as ahsi policy wtowards the german jews who as has been pointed out by severian were anyway not as rich as youmake out on the whole and most significantly were exxtremely heterogeneous

[atlanticche]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 02:16 AM
I had an epiphany today when I was speaking to this old refugee from world war 2
I have never thought of it this way, but I would like to present this to you and you tell me what you think.

This is not about Anti- Semitism, this is about when a race is a class.

After the first world war, germans were VERY poor. Because of poverty there was already alot of angst. There were an awful lot of poor german people.
Now, while all jews were not ritch, alot of the upperclass was jewish. And alot of germans were pissed that the upperclass would leave them like that. Now we knoe that in capitalism.. no one said they have to care. Usually they dont. They&#39;ll eat big dinners and talk about "politics" and enjoy a peacefull sleep while their is struggle in the streets.
Do you know what this situation parallels? Think about how in the USA, how you hear blacks say they hate whites. Think about who makes the upperclass in the USA. While there is plenty of poor whites..... most of the upperclass is predominantly white. And it was even worse before. Alot of times the upperclass justifies the struggle of the poor,they see it, but they dont see what is wrong with it. And this kind of burgoeis, luxurious ignorance, angered alot of african americans, like Malcom X, to the point where they hated whites, when it was really the ignorance of the upperclass.
This is when a race becomes a class.
People&#39;s rage for the upperclass is eclipsed by racism, when in fact their really pissed at the neglegence and opression of the ruling classes.
well i see what your getting at, but the holocaust was only propelled forward by your theory, since capitalism did not create racism, this theory of yours pretty much shows how the nazis almost justified what they were doing on their small minds,

[Raisa]

It was meerly propelled. Alot went into them justifying the holocaust of course.

[atlanticche]

well but of course

[Sloth]

Raisa....you must be brain damaged.

Whatever &#39;epiphany&#39; you had....was quite the sad one.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 05:10 AM
Why didn&#39;t you bring up the homosexuals, gypsys, blacks, the communists, or the other radical-leftists?

I&#39;m pretty irritated about this whole jew thing, while nobody think of the other victims. There were OTHER victims, for christ sake&#33;
The people of Asia are allways been "missed out" in these stats. 15 million Chinese died at the hands of Japanese Imperialism.

[Raisa]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 02:24 AM
Raisa....you must be brain damaged.

Whatever &#39;epiphany&#39; you had....was quite the sad one.
yeah......i admit ...it was a pretty shitty epiphany indeed.

[Raisa]

...but not enitrely. Is it false to say that alot of the times the class struggle is eclipsed by racism?

....where people pay more attention to race then the real issue at hand.