isreal and palestine

[revolutionary thinker]

Me personally am on Palestine's side. I don't like the suicide bombings but man Isreal takes their fuckin land, dumps their trash all over their land that Isreal gives them, and they get constantly harrassed at check points. Those are jsut some reasons why I am for Palestine and the fact that they have a fuckin army go and attack civilians but i guess. what about you guys?

[RedAnarchist]

Most left-wingers tend to be Pro-Palestinian.

I advocate a free Palestinian state, with all the land originally Palestine before the Zionist occupation absorbed into it.

[The idealist]

I am for a free palestine. The palestinians were there first. Israel has no right to that land other than religious "rights", but suicide bombing is the wrong approach. Give the palestinians sniper rifles, then let Sharon see what he can do against gueirilla tactics, but all round it would be better if sharon was a little more cooperative. Talking peace says so much more than the end of a gun barrel.
Free speach, free religion, free Palestine.

That is my opinion.

[Intifada]

i completely support the palestinians in their search for justice and freedom. suicide bombings that attack innocent civilians are wrong and unacceptable, but one should be able to understand why they resort to suicide bombings. these people are desperate. everyday they are being oppressed, abused and subjugated. you would have thought that the jews would know how that feels.

[il Commie]

"We were here first" says only those trying to get the other nation out of the land. We should have no connection with them.

I'm for a free arab-jewish Socialist republic in Palestine-Israel. Of course I support the palestinian right for self determination if they succeed forming an independent state, but only Socialism would bring independence and peace for both nations.

Testimonies of palestinian occupation victims:
http://www.btselem.org/English/Testimonies/Index.asp

[Funky Monk]

I think its all fucked up

[DORRI]

free Palestine "from the river to the sea" for all realpalestinian jews, christians and muslims!

[DORRI]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 03:35 PM
Most left-wingers tend to be Pro-Palestinian.


I hope so. :)

[Louis Pio]

I have the same position as il Commie.
Because it is indeed the only solution for the area

[The idealist]

People accuse the palestinians of "taking the law into their own hands", but what else can they do? I admit that blowing yourself up in the middle of a crowd is not the most brilliant idea, but it is one of the only ways the palestines feel they can get back at their oppressors.

Unless there is an international court that isn't controlled by a country, there will always be such uprisings.

USA and Israel are openly and visciously breaking international law, and NOTHING in heaven or on earth can justify that, not even the deaths of 5000 people in the World Trade.

Unless someone stands up to the US, they will keep on doing so. So long as Bush and his administration do such things I will forever see them as Not being worthy of acceptance to the human race.

[NYC4Ever]

If Palestinians lay down their guns, there will be peace.
If Israel lays down her guns, there will be no Israel.

Don't take sides blindly. But if I did have to, I lean pro-Israeli.

[James]

I'm far more "pro-israel" (that is i'm not as pro-palestine) than i used to be.


People accuse the palestinians of "taking the law into their own hands", but what else can they do? I admit that blowing yourself up in the middle of a crowd is not the most brilliant idea, but it is one of the only ways the palestines feel they can get back at their oppressors.

A) don't you think these bombers ALIENATE potential support? There is much to be said for the moral highground
B) why not just killthemselves? Set themselves on fire like the buddhists for example.

I think directly attacking israeli civilians does justify in turn israeli retaliations: its an "act of terror/war".


I agree with monk - its fucked up. Both sides need to just STOP killing.

[Kez]

its fucked up, great, well done, gold medal for observations...

a) Do the Israeli government and its army not use violence?
As for isolating support for palestine, suicide bombers are a reaction against the feeling of helplesness against an organised state
b) Why would they kill themselves? what would this acheive? the buddhist in Vietnam who burnt himself, what the fuck did he achieve? bollocks. But what did the armed Viet Cong and the armed people achieve? the booting of of US imperialism.

Whose interests are these wars being fought for? the people? or the ruling class? Both the israeli and palestinian working classes must stand up and defeat their own ruling classes and unite in a socialist state.

[NYC4Ever]

Since when does the loser of a war have a say in affairs of negotiations? The PLO were lucky that Israel even recognized them as an authority to talk peace with. The Barak/Clinton deal was the best offer and the Palestinians should have taken it, because they had and HAVE no say what so ever. Considering even that they use terrorist means to get what they want.
Why do you people think that Israel wants to target civilians? I mean the PLO and Hamas openly admit that their mantra of persuasion is to attack unarmed civilians. But wait, no I forgot that they're the victims and their acts are out of victimized aggression because of the occupation. They should lay down their guns, accept defeat and the state of Israel, and then there will be peace and a Palestinian state.

[James]

a) Do the Israeli government and its army not use violence?

Do the palestinians?


As for isolating support for palestine, suicide bombers are a reaction against the feeling of helplesness against an organised state

I said alienating (have you looked that word up yet?)
They alienate support - no matter how you try to dress it up. No appologist argument can change this fact. Imagine the support they would get if they stopped murdering people - these murders prevent alot of people from supporting palestine.



b) Why would they kill themselves? what would this acheive?

I said why not kill JUST themselves if they are obsessed with dieing for palestinian freedom.
What do these bombs achieve? All they achieve is israeli retaliation.


the buddhist in Vietnam who burnt himself, what the fuck did he achieve? bollocks.

Strong visual impact

Shock

Sympathy

Drew sympathetic people to ask why he did it - thus they educate themselves

Free publicity

Protest


Kamo, your line of argument is effectively - "what does peacful protest ever achieve?"


But what did the armed Viet Cong and the armed people achieve? the booting of of US imperialism.

Are you comparing the viet cong to the palestinians?


Whose interests are these wars being fought for? the people? or the ruling class? Both the israeli and palestinian working classes must stand up and defeat their own ruling classes and unite in a socialist state.

Here, have your gold medal back for stating the obvious. Good thing you are on this board kamo.

[DORRI]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 08:15 PM
Don't take sides blindly.
I took my side after reading the history.THere was no Israel before 1948 and I dont know why she should exist after then.If they have been persecuted by nazis, why didn't they choose their(nasiz) country for themselves?what was palestinian guilt?
As Golda Meir has said,"nationless land for landless nation" and as Gabriel Garcia Marquez has said, "when they found a nation there,decided to make it nationless" a work which they started in Deiryassin in 9.apr.1948 with massacre of more than 200 peasants and it's continuing right now in Gaza.So,
If Palestinians lay down their guns, there will be no palestinians,not
there will be peace.

(edited some stupid wrong spellings)

[Invader Zim]

Hmm its a tricky question, and I rather find my self taking a deap dislike to both sides, and refuse to support either.

I do not support israel because they use hugley immoral tactics to gain their ends.

The Palestinains, on that score are just as bad, though the civillian death toll from their "freedom fighters" is not as high as Israels.

However i do dislike seeing idiots on the left, who think they know their stuff, spouting shite, about evil zionists, conquering Palestinian land. The reality is, Palestine has not existed for centuries. How can the zionists steal land from a people who it does not belong too? I think its utter bollocks. Then you get the lies about Israel invading Palestinian territories like the Westbank, etc. Well as these area's were actually "owned" by naiboring arab powers, I fail to see how they ever belonged to Palestine. it also worries me that people say that israel unjustly annexed these area's. Well the reality is, these area's were being used to shell israel, and to invade israel, etc. Sorry but, if you are using a strip of land to invade a country, and then the buggers take it off you, then sorry but you had it coming.

The question should be, "should Israel still be there?", not, "did israel ever have the right to be there?"

God how I hate propaganda.

[NYC4Ever]

you're right there is a palestinian state. Its called Jordan. Why wont the Jordanians take their people back? Why wont any of the Arab nations take these refugees in? If the Palestinians were to lay down their guns and Israel does not give them their land as proposed by the Barak/Clinton deal, than go ahead and destroy Israel. But for now I do not agree with the settlements or even the occupation taking so long. But like so many agree here, they believe that Israel should be pushed into the sea. Dont you see how ugly that is and how that is being bias and one sided? Do you guys not support a two state solution?
I think its awful the way Israel has to be on guard 24/7 night and day from an attack and carefully decipher how they are going to eradicate terrorism while not pissing off the Arab nations and the Palestinians by killing innocent civilians. I dont think that everything they do is legit or even justified but are they not also victims then of terrorism? Oh, no, only the Palestinians deserve the right to be victims. They are two nations at their wits end and battling over holy land. Will someone please qoute to me some Holy Quran scriptures in which Jerusalem is mentioned, and why it is Holy land? There were no tripps to the Dome as if like Mecca, only after the Jews came there did it become a suicide bombers cause. In the Torah and Tanakh and even in the Bible, its mentioned over 300 times. The Quran: 0. Read the PLO and the Islamic Hamas chapter. Both are grossly understated and are not even seen as a threat to the world, but only as "freedom Fighters". God, you people would join any cause molotov cocktail and all.

[abigratsass]

pro-palestinain all the way!!

im definatly against sucide bombings aimed at civillians, but against troops , i fing it a totally legit way of fighting back!!
but after all they simply resolt to sucide bombings out of despair and because they have not other mean to fight the heavily armed IDF forces that occupy their land, give them a choice or anthore way and im sure they ll pick it they dont really want to die!

[abigratsass]

oh sorry to make anthore post but i forget to answer NYC4EVER...
ok , jordaninans and pali's are two diffrent people!!
and arab countries have palestinian refugees (egypt,syria,lebanon, jordan) the thing is they can become citizians of the countries they live in , for example a palestinian cant become egyption offcially for the simple reason that arabs belive in the'' right to return'' , get it?!!!

and i dont know any quran scripts off by heart to prove that jerusalem is a holy land but it was actually considered holy before mecca, you know how muslims pray in the direction of mecca , well we first used to pray in the direction of jursalem ! that makes it pretty holy!
also we belive that the prophet mohmed went there and prayed in the el -aqsa mosque .
plus thats not the point palestianians are fighting to free there OCCUPUIED LAND
they dont need scripts to prove that its holy to do that ! i know muslims, christians and jewish arabs that support the palestians in their cause its not about religon and it shouldnt be its about a persons right to live free on his land and keep his honour in the process! kappish ? or should i go over that one more time ....

[Sabocat]

nyc4ever.

Ever here of the "Right of Return"? Look it up.

Ever read the UN sanctions about Israel keeping land after the battle? UN resolutions expressly forbid Israel from retaining the land kept after the war.

The ratio of kills between Israel and the Palestinians is substantially in Israel's favor. It has been as high as 10:1 but more recently has settled around 3 or 4:1.


If Palestinians lay down their guns, there will be peace.
If Israel lays down her guns, there will be no Israel.

No, if Palestine lays down their guns and becomes a subservient prison state to Israel, there will be peace for Israel.

If Israel laid down her guns, nothing would change, as Israel is a the sock puppet of the U.S. and would be diligently protected.

[NYC4Ever]

Ah, Palestinian propaganda I see.
The UN is a slimy ridiculed organization of corrupt politicans. I dont trust them for a second. Their whole effort is to make resolutions against America and Israel.
There are alot of reasons for why Israelis have less casualties than the Palestinians. And is that how you determine the favorable side of the war? Israelis work night and day to prevent terrorist attacks and do so. The Israeli medical team response is top notch and 1st rate among any in the world. They even offer help to Palestinians hurt as well, but the Palestinians are so arrogant that they would rather have their kids martryed to make Israel look horribly bad. Yasser Arafat recieves millions and has not even dropped a penny to better the Palestinians primitive hospitals. That rat of a man goes around the world promoting his cause and recieves undeserved peace prizes. He should be killed.

People that protest against Israel usually protest the occupation and the settlements, which I also oppose. But they do not wish for Israel to be pushed into the sea as do radicals that occupy the Palestinian Authority. If you support a two state solution than you are a Zionist. Why have you guys turned that word as if it equates with Nazism? abigratsass, you justify Palestinian bombings as despair but decry when Israel defends itself. Why?

No, if Palestine lays down their guns and becomes a subservient prison state to Israel, there will be peace for Israel.

If Israel laid down her guns, nothing would change, as Israel is a the sock puppet of the U.S. and would be diligently protected.


How is this plausible? Where is your evidence for this assumption? You think everything your're against is a stupid Zionist conspiracy theory. You're worse than those people that say the Jews own everything in America. Now if you justify the PLO or Hamas, why not justify Al-Queda, ETA, IRA, Hezzbollah, and every other terrorist organization out there? You expect Israel to be this perfect humane nation while dogs that raise their kids to die as martyrs get off scott free due to their victimized minds. Again, I believe it's because you guys love the feeling of freeing oppressed people from any government aggression, no matter if they arewrong. And like I said before, if Israel does not give back the land if the PLO puts down their guns, then fuck Israel too. I mean how hard is that to understand?

[Sabocat]

Ah, Palestinian propaganda I see.

:lol:


The UN is a slimy ridiculed organization of corrupt politicans. I dont trust them for a second. Their whole effort is to make resolutions against America and Israel.

How paranoid. Yes, by no means should anyone ever say anything against U.S. or Israeli policy, or prevent them from intefering with sovereign nations. What was I thinking? It'd be a lot handier if the U.S. and Israel could just do whatever they wanted without fear of admonishment from the rest of the world.

They did however prove their corruption by allowing the U.S. to steamroll into Iraq regardless of no referendum from the UN.


Yasser Arafat recieves millions and has not even dropped a penny to better the Palestinians primitive hospitals.

Ah, Israeli propaganda I see. :lol:


There are alot of reasons for why Israelis have less casualties than the Palestinians.

Yes, there are lots of reasons....an air force and organized army are a couple of reasons.


They even offer help to Palestinians hurt as well

They also block Palestinian ambulances from getting through checkpoints, sometimes for hours, resulting in people bleeding to death in the ambulance before they even get to a hospital.


You expect Israel to be this perfect humane nation while dogs that raise their kids to die as martyrs get off scott free due to their victimized minds

Well at least now you've shown your true colors. Dogs eh? What about the Israeli's that shot one unarmed British peace activist in the head (while wearing a bright orange vest no less) and running an American peace activist over with a bulldozer serveral times(again, wearing a bright orange vest)? What would you call them? What about Jenin? What does one actually have to do in your mind to be considered a "dog" I wonder?


How is this plausible? Where is your evidence for this assumption? You think everything your're against is a stupid Zionist conspiracy theory.

How is it plausible? What's my evidence? Maybe because the U.S. is Israel's biggest ally. Who do you think Israel gets their fighter jets from? Do you really think the U.S. would allow anyone to "push Israel into the sea"?

I have never once blamed anything on a Zionist conspiracy theory.

[NYC4Ever]

You must think that I am an Israeli apologist. If anything your true side has shown because you put your faith in other nations just to oppose two. As if those nations can wash their hands clean of any damage. The time I stopped defending Israel blindly was when Sharon was elected because Israel turned into the offensive rather than the defensive.
Again you list Israeli attrocities like all of the deaths that occured by their hands as if making me look as if I approve of that, while you openly approve of the PLO and Hamas to engage in terrorist attacks as a means to get what they wish since they are oppressed. And you accuse me of listening to propaganda?


Yes, there are lots of reasons....an air force and organized army are a couple of reasons.


So Israel should let any arab nation come in as it pleases and attack?

Israel has had it up to here with the PLO and Hamas, so how come they can't be victims? Why are only the Palestinians victims? Nearly alot of the population supports these terrorist groups, and if they dont they are considered to be enemies of Islam. Why oh why do you pamper and cater to their needs by encourgaging them to engage in acts of violence? Yes, I do not doubt that Israel is guilty of crimes and Sharon is no different than Arafat. But why do you people give the green light to the Palestinians?


How is it plausible? What's my evidence? Maybe because the U.S. is Israel's biggest ally. Who do you think Israel gets their fighter jets from? Do you really think the U.S. would allow anyone to "push Israel into the sea"?

I have never once blamed anything on a Zionist conspiracy theory.


I alone would not let anyone push Israel to the sea. I'm glad the US has helped Israel this long. But the US is not helping as much now as it did before because of the hawkish general Sharon. Arafat knew that the Barak deal was not what they wanted, so he turned it down fearing for his life if he took it and using it against Israel. He knew that Israel had had enough of the PLO so he knew they would vote for some one who would ride Israel on the offensive. Lets say Clinton was going to make a deal with Bin Laden for the '93 bombing of the WTC and then Bin Laden spits of the deal and leaves. Then after wards 9/11 happens. Who do you think the American people would vote for next? President Bush.
What happened right after Arafat spit on the Barak/Clinton deal. A terrorist attack on Jewish land killing innocent civilians. Then came the retaliation from Israel that hurt Israel even on the world scale even more.

[DaCuBaN]

Israel has had it up to here with the PLO and Hamas, so how come they can't be victims?

I ride straight down the centre on this one, as each side is as bad as each other. However, from day 1 Israel have not really helped the situation - and as the people in 'power' they really should have tried to do more

This is idealistic, I agree - but surely we should be trying to have the world run by idealists? After all, they are the ones coming up with the ideals and from there these can be dissected until applicable to reality.


So Israel should let any arab nation come in as it pleases and attack?

Arguably, yes. They don't really have any right to be there in the first place. It's an academic argument though - they are there, now we must fix it.


your true side has shown because you put your faith in other nations just to oppose two. As if those nations can wash their hands clean of any damage

But no one has done more to distance the two (except the Israeli and Palestinians themselves) than the US and UK.

[NYC4Ever]

And bring peace by appeasement? Reward their terrorism? Give Arafat, three peace prizes, host him at parties and let him wine and dine with the elites in high European society. These nations that pamper Arafat and his extremists have their own interests in mind, to not get blown up. While thats good for them and their citizens, its also at the cost of the Israelis, whom these extremists want to push into the sea. The US ( I wouldn't say the UK anymore because after Blair, the UK will be very anti-US/Israeli) stands by its principal and helps one of ,if not, the only democracy in the middle east. Why is that bad? I've met people who have been to Tel Aviv and consider Israel to be an oasis in the desert wasteland that some of these extremist governments have turned the middle east into.
The UN leaders know that these are extremists, and they mean buisness. So they give them what they want without flinching or fighting back, knowing that it could mean the demise of Israel, one of the only allies whose people dont call for the death of the west and the infidels. I know not all are extremists but when these clerics do convince a chunk of the population to commit suicide attacks then it gets to be a problem. It's all politics.

[DaCuBaN]

I wouldn't say the UK anymore because after Blair, the UK will be very anti-US/Israeli

There's still nothing to say Blair will either be ejected from the Labour leadership, or that labour will lose the next election. I think he, like bush, is here to stay.


I've met people who have been to Tel Aviv and consider Israel to be an oasis in the desert wasteland that some of these extremist governments have turned the middle east into

Firstly, I don't know how much of this can solely be blamed on the governments of the middle east - many of them have been fucked around with over the last 200 years especially - it's been a turbulent region for so long anyway. Secondly, about 4 years ago I visited Israel. Tel-Aviv is quite a nice city - it's certainly up to 'western standards' - but Jerusalem, Bethlehem and Nazareth are absolute shitholes. This kind of makes sense considering Tel-Aviv isn't nearly as contested.

Saudi Arabia also refutes this remark: There are some spectacular cities there, that exceed 'western standards'


The UN leaders know that these are extremists, and they mean buisness. So they give them what they want without flinching or fighting back, knowing that it could mean the demise of Israel, one of the only allies whose people dont call for the death of the west and the infidels.

The UN has done jack shit - every time they've tried it's been veto'd by the US. Until the veto system is removed from the UN it will continue to be a waste of space.



I know not all are extremists but when these clerics do convince a chunk of the population to commit suicide attacks then it gets to be a problem. It's all politics.

That last statement applies to both sides. Whilst staying in a hostel in Jerusalem we 'befriended' a squad of Israeli conscripts going on parade ground duty the following day

The attitudes of some, and by no means all of these people made me sick to the pit of my stomach. It's certainly a good mirror for the US - the propoganda machine has most Israeli's thinking that the palestinians are evil.

[Intifada]

nyc4ever you really are so repetitive and ignorant.

[NYC4Ever]

Oh sorry, I forgot you're the only one with the real facts. I guess for someone who justifies everything the PLO and Hamas do is really seeing this from an unbias perspective. I doubt that you even support a two state solution, you would just rather join the dogs that want to push Israel into the sea. But again ad hominens seem to be your level of expertise. Why can you not stand someone with a different point of view on the subject?

[karma-cola]

The israeli's are very wrong

They are doing to the palestines that which they recieved at
the hands of other people like the nazi's

The jews are the new nazi's

Just because someone oppressed them it does not give
them no right to do the same to others


sucide bombing is really sad :(

Can you you imagine what a person
must undergo to agree to blow himself up
by his own hands

Well i cant because i happen to live in better circumstances

But it must be really horrible

It goes against a mans own survival instincts

Very sad

[Intifada]

someone who justifies everything the PLO and Hamas do

go and give me one shred of evidence of my support for hamas and the PLO.


I doubt that you even support a two state solution, you would just rather join the dogs that want to push Israel into the sea.

i support the fight for justice, freedom and self-determination for the palestinian people. i do not want to see israel's destruction, that isn't realistic either. what have you got to say for the israelis who wish to see all arabs expeled from "jewish" land?

"Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed." - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

[NYC4Ever]

I think that by justifying their suicide bombings as victimized acts of aggression is enough. There is too much politics involved into this fight to take a side blindly. You can jabber on about all the smack against America, but remember that the Palestinians are being tossed around by the corrupt Arab nations.



i support the fight for justice, freedom and self-determination for the palestinian people. i do not want to see israel's destruction, that isn't realistic either. what have you got to say for the israelis who wish to see all arabs expeled from "jewish" land?

Nothing. It's a fight. I suppose you believe that most Arabs wish goodwill to the Israelis or any Jews for that matter. Each side deserves their justice, their self determination and freedom. Do not act like Israel isn't fighting for its survival either. I wish for peace in that area, but the war lines have been drawn. If a bundle of nations come together against you and your people 3 times in the last century than its a fight for survival. Don't give all the credit of victimization to the Palestinians.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 06:37 PM
"Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed." - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Quite ironic that you Quote Dr King, in this situation, you clearly support the Palestinians over the Israeli's, and condem Israels actions. Yet you remain silent when regarding Palesinian actions, which suggests that you are an appologist for terrorism, something that Dr King was against.

[VincentValentine]

I dont like the Jews (or for that matter any religious people) im more pro Palastinian.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 07:45 PM
I dont like the Jews (or for that matter any religious people) im more pro Palastinian.
You dont like Jews... perhaps you mean you dont like zionists?

[Intifada]

I think that by justifying their suicide bombings as victimized acts of aggression is enough.

i never said it was justified, i said it was understandable.


Don't give all the credit of victimization to the Palestinians.

they are the ones who are suffering more. they are the ones who are being killed or maimed every single day.


Do not act like Israel isn't fighting for its survival either.

israel is not fighting for it's survival. they are not the ones who are being displaced from their own homes are they? they are the ones who are oppressing. the oppresssed will fight back against the oppressors. it's simple. until israel stops it's oppression, subjugation and defiance of international law and human rights there will be no chance for peace. israel's actions do nothing but aggravate terrorism.


Quite ironic that you Quote Dr King, in this situation, you clearly support the Palestinians over the Israeli's, and condem Israels actions. Yet you remain silent when regarding Palesinian actions, which suggests that you are an appologist for terrorism, something that Dr King was against.

i condemn any acts of violence against innocents.

the reason i included that particular quote is because freedom will only be won through resistance. the means of resistance is at the moment militant, which king would obviously be opposed to.

[VincentValentine]

Originally posted by Enigma+May 13 2004, 07:47 PM--> (Enigma @ May 13 2004, 07:47 PM)
[email protected] 13 2004, 07:45 PM
I dont like the Jews (or for that matter any religious people) im more pro Palastinian.
You dont like Jews... perhaps you mean you dont like zionists? [/b]
No, I mean I don't liek religious people, jews, muslims, christians etc etc

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by VincentValentine+May 13 2004, 08:10 PM--> (VincentValentine @ May 13 2004, 08:10 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 07:47 PM

[email protected] 13 2004, 07:45 PM
I dont like the Jews (or for that matter any religious people) im more pro Palastinian.
You dont like Jews... perhaps you mean you dont like zionists?
No, I mean I don't liek religious people, jews, muslims, christians etc etc [/b]
Ahh, I see, I dislike religion and I sympathise, but religious people, they are misguided, not inherently bad. Indeed their are some very commited christian socialists, jewish socialists, muslim socialists, etc.

Perhaps your dislike would be better projected at the people who have manipulated these people, to do unspeakable things?

[James]

The jews are the new nazi's


I don't think you mean that

[Comrade Latino]

I'm on Palestine's side. Israel is always kissing the U$' ass.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

None!

Both sides are driven by the proles anger and lead by the bourgeoisie scum. Choosing a side, would mean supporting their leaders, exploiters and oppressors. I hate Arafat just as much as Sharon. It's never the leaders who die, it's us the proles. When trying to unite the proles, we should NEVER choose sides. If we choose the Palestinian side, we disadvantage the Isreali proles and visa versa. I only support the interrests of one group; proletarians.

[RedComrade]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 01:15 PM
you're right there is a palestinian state. Its called Jordan. Why wont the Jordanians take their people back? Why wont any of the Arab nations take these refugees in? If the Palestinians were to lay down their guns and Israel does not give them their land as proposed by the Barak/Clinton deal, than go ahead and destroy Israel. But for now I do not agree with the settlements or even the occupation taking so long. But like so many agree here, they believe that Israel should be pushed into the sea. Dont you see how ugly that is and how that is being bias and one sided? Do you guys not support a two state solution?
I think its awful the way Israel has to be on guard 24/7 night and day from an attack and carefully decipher how they are going to eradicate terrorism while not pissing off the Arab nations and the Palestinians by killing innocent civilians. I dont think that everything they do is legit or even justified but are they not also victims then of terrorism? Oh, no, only the Palestinians deserve the right to be victims. They are two nations at their wits end and battling over holy land. Will someone please qoute to me some Holy Quran scriptures in which Jerusalem is mentioned, and why it is Holy land? There were no tripps to the Dome as if like Mecca, only after the Jews came there did it become a suicide bombers cause. In the Torah and Tanakh and even in the Bible, its mentioned over 300 times. The Quran: 0. Read the PLO and the Islamic Hamas chapter. Both are grossly understated and are not even seen as a threat to the world, but only as "freedom Fighters". God, you people would join any cause molotov cocktail and all.
Wow! I hope this hasn't already been said, it probably has and if so my apologies. I don't think your aware of this NYC, you seem preety ignorant, but Jerusalem is, was, and always has been the third holiest city in islam. The temple mount is where the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) ascended to heaven.

[Pawn Power]

i am not on either side, i am on the side of the working class
the working class must unite to defete capitalism, it is because of religion that situations like these occure and progress ito worse events

[NYC4Ever]

Wow! I hope this hasn't already been said, it probably has and if so my apologies. I don't think your aware of this NYC, you seem preety ignorant, but Jerusalem is, was, and always has been the third holiest city in islam. The temple mount is where the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) ascended to heaven.




There were no pilgrimages to the “holy” Al Asqa mosque. Jerusalem is not the third holiest site of Islam. Mecca and Medina are holy; Jerusalem was never mentioned in the same breath until the liberation of the Temple Mount by the Israelis in 1967.
The Arabs have 6,000,000 MILES OF LAND. Why don’t they give their brothers a state? With one day’s oil profits they could give every one of them a bar of gold. Why don’t they?

[Urban Rubble]

Anyone who chooses a side on an issue like this is a fool that doesn't deserve to be heard. Both sides are guilty in this conflict, it just happens that one is being supported by the U.S, so you guys automatically assume that the Palestinians have done no wrong.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2004, 03:00 AM

Wow! I hope this hasn't already been said, it probably has and if so my apologies. I don't think your aware of this NYC, you seem preety ignorant, but Jerusalem is, was, and always has been the third holiest city in islam. The temple mount is where the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) ascended to heaven.




There were no pilgrimages to the “holy” Al Asqa mosque. Jerusalem is not the third holiest site of Islam. Mecca and Medina are holy; Jerusalem was never mentioned in the same breath until the liberation of the Temple Mount by the Israelis in 1967.
The Arabs have 6,000,000 MILES OF LAND. Why don’t they give their brothers a state? With one day’s oil profits they could give every one of them a bar of gold. Why don’t they?
Would it be fair if some foreign force would occupy the United States and then would say move to your "white brothers" in Europe?

No matter where a Capitalist comes from - Arab, American, Israeli or a.o- they still are greedy bastards, so you can forget about the Arab capitalists giving free capital away in the shape of land and money. Just like the American, European, Asian a.o wouldn't do.

NYC4ever.
You should look deeper down. You shouldn't choose sides, conservative capitalists are governing the Isreaeli side, just as well as the Palestinian side. The innoncent people are the proles, the dieing people are the proles, the oppressed are the proles, we are merely beeing used as tools by the capitalists of both sides. They wouldn't care. Sharon's fraude scandal and the Palestinian premier scandal - who's company delivers the cement for The Wall. Do you think they care? People before money or money before people.

[NYC4Ever]

I know that both sides are horribly corrupt. I only tend to lean a little more pro-Israeli because now its about defending their homeland. Both sides grow up hating each other to become bitter rivals. But the PLO and Hamas get encouraged by the greedy arab nations and college kids at rallies waving the Palestinian flag. Some of these idiots do not even promote peaceful protesting they just wave the flag and ask for molotov cocktails. The violence creates more violence.

[Intifada]

But the PLO and Hamas get encouraged by the greedy arab nations and college kids at rallies waving the Palestinian flag.

through israel's oppression of the palestinians, extremists such as hamas have an excuse to take revenge. israel encourages terrorism through it's racist policies.

[NYC4Ever]

through israel's oppression of the palestinians, extremists such as hamas have an excuse to take revenge. israel encourages terrorism through it's racist policies.

And you say you do not justify terrorism?

[Intifada]

from dictionary.com:

jus·ti·fy
v. jus·ti·fied, jus·ti·fy·ing, jus·ti·fies
v. tr.

To demonstrate or prove to be just, right, or valid: justified each budgetary
expense as necessary; anger that is justified by the circumstances.

i have said it before, i condemn any acts of violence against innocent civilians. in otherwords i do not justify (demonstrate or prove to be just, right, or valid) suicide bombings.

:rolleyes:

[NYC4Ever]

This is like a chicken or the egg thing. Do you "understand" the Palestinians because of Israeli occupation, or understand the Israelis because of the acts of terrorism.

[Intifada]

Do you "understand" the Palestinians because of Israeli occupation, or understand the Israelis because of the acts of terrorism.

when you live under occupation for decades, then you can tell me that what palestinians do is not understandable. israel's racist policies sow the seeds of palestinian terrorism.

[NYC4Ever]

When Arab nations gather together to impose an imperialist war 4 times in one century on you then you can talk smack. As part of the Partition Plan in ‘48, Israel was only to be a tiny portion of what it is today, the rest was offered to the Palestinians in exchange for peace. The Arab response? Full-out aggressive imperialist war, to finish what Hitler started. The Arab nations told the Palestinians: “Leave your homes, we’ll annihilate the Jews, and then you can come back.” Bad decision. But that’s the price you pay for going to war
If that isn't racist I do not know what is? And what racism? They are both brothers in the semite group. If you're anti-semitic you're anti-Arab. Its only now that the word really has any significance because of the Jews. Kind of Latinos aren't really Latin.

[BuyOurEverything]

It's utterly perplexing why so many peopl take nationalist positions on this issue. Hows, this: Neither Israel or Palestine have a right to exist! They're artifical social constructs created and maintained by the ruling class on both sides. The people have a right to live there in peace, flag waving does nothing for anyone.

[Kurai Tsuki]

I'm on the Palestinian side; no exceptions and no liberal disclaimers about wishing they would be more peaceful. There is no peaceful solution to the Israeli problem (normally called the Palestinan problem) as the Israelis are not willing to acknowledge that all of the land which they claimed in 1948 is historically Arab. This was even before the Israelites came to it. And it is in situations where diplomatic solutions have failed that aggressive action comes into being.

[Intifada]

during the forties, the only people that were betrayed were the palestinian people. british imperialism, the UN and an arab king sold them to the zionists, who then expanded their nation without having to fear any reprimand from the big powers of that time. had ben-gurion stayed within the borders made by the UN, then regardless of the injustice, israel could argue that they had accepted the UN decision and would defend their borders against any invasion. instead he did the opposite through dealing with king abdullah to steal more territory than was given to the jews by the UN.

after this, they went ahead with their plans of ethnic cleansing, which has always been an aspect of the zionist project. herzl wrote himself in 1985: "we shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our country... both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out secretly and circumspectly."

in 1938 ben-gurion defended this concept of "population transfer" by saying: "i favour partition of the country because when we become a strong power after the establishment of the state, we will abolish partition and spread throighout all of palestine."

ever since the founding of the state of israel in 1948, palestinians have been displaced from their own homes. every jewish settlement is built on a destroyed arab one. do you honestly believe that the arabs will just accept this? every refugee has the right to return, but israel has refused this basic right for years.


And what racism? They are both brothers in the semite group. If you're anti-semitic you're anti-Arab.

that is why i find it ironic when people say that anti-zionists are anti-semites. israel is a racist state. the israeli law of land discriminates openly against arabs. israel confiscated around 90% of land which was once palestinian, but now belong solely to "israeli citizens". israel law allows the right to return to any jew living anywhere in the world, on the basis that their forefathers lived there 2000 years ago. however they deny the right to return for the palestinian refugees who are either the children of those forced out of their homes, or themselves were made to leave around 50 years ago.

the israeli argument against UN resolution 194, which calls for the right to return for palestinian refugees, is racist. israel argues that the return of palestinian refugees will affect the "purity" of the jewish homeland by sliding the demographic balance away from a jewish majority.

in the OPTs israel has openly established a situation where 2 communities are living in 2 separate sets of residential areas, under 2 different and separate sets of laws and rights. the way israel has established it's illegal settlements in the OPTs has created a typical apartheid situation, similar to that of south africa.

desmond tutu himself described what he saw on his visit to israel "much like what happened to us black people in south africa. i have seen the humiliation of the palestinians at checkpoints and roadblocks, suffering like us when young white police officers prevented us from moving about".

[synthesis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2004, 08:02 AM
I know that both sides are horribly corrupt. I only tend to lean a little more pro-Israeli because now its about defending their homeland.
On what account does Israel constitute its inhabitants' homeland?

Racially? Disregarding the ethics of such a claim, the land hasn't been Jewish for over two millenia and even then, the ancient Israelites were genetically and anthropologically similar to Yemeni Arabs, while Western Jews are basically Europeans.

Culturally? Again, Jewish people have always lived on the land, but the country has been Jewish for only about sixty years, whereas the land has been Palestinian for about a thousand years now.

Imagine if the persecuted Shan people of Myanmar - the military government has killed perhaps two million of them - showed up in Northern Ireland, expelled all the original inhabitants in the name of preserving a 'culturally Shan state' (the white supremacists often claim it's about culture, not race, too) and spent a great deal of time and energy making frequent trips into the south to destroy potato farms.

There are, of course, arguments that since 'the Arabs have so much land, can't they afford to give away just a little of it?' This only takes race into account, not culture; Palestine is a land with its own people and history, just like Ireland. You generally won't hear Asians talking about how 'the Europeans have so much land, can't they afford to give away just a little of it?'

[Cobra]

This issue is not very complex. Jews have overrun Palestine. It is the duty of the Arab people to force the invaders to leave, like what they did during the crusades. It’s as simple as that. If it were not for the Arab puppet leaders, the Jews would have left a long time ago.

The Jews should move to Texas and form their country there.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2004, 03:02 PM
I know that both sides are horribly corrupt. I only tend to lean a little more pro-Israeli because now its about defending their homeland. Both sides grow up hating each other to become bitter rivals. But the PLO and Hamas get encouraged by the greedy arab nations and college kids at rallies waving the Palestinian flag. Some of these idiots do not even promote peaceful protesting they just wave the flag and ask for molotov cocktails. The violence creates more violence.
Don't choose sides. Ofcouse both sides have their arguments, like - as you stated - defending their homelind or like some have stated attacking their oppressors.

"The violence creates more violence." I couldn't agree more. Don't choose sides, both sides provoke war. No matter if it's a Hamas assault or an IDF assault in the middle of another peace proces; the result is the same. Choosing the Isreali side makes you an even great bastard as choosing the Palestinian side. You don't have to choose sides, there are more options.

[Cobra]

The so-called “Peace Process” is a bunch of bullshit. Let’s be realistic. As long as Jews live in Palestine, there can be no peace. The only way there can be peace is if the Jews leave. If the Jews choose not to leave, then they will need to be forced to leave. There are no other options.

[Kurai Tsuki]

I'm so glad that leftists are starting to talk about the middle east situation logically.

I'm personally more of an Arab Nationalist.


The so-called “Peace Process” is a bunch of bullshit. Let’s be realistic. As long as Jews live in Palestine, there can be no peace. The only way there can be peace is if the Jews leave. If the Jews choose not to leave, then they will need to be forced to leave. There are no other options.

[mEds]

There is no right side to pick. Both sides are antagonizing each other except that the Israeli's use much more force and have much LESS of a claim to the area. The solution sometimes is to fight back with violence but when your fighting an American supported Israel you don't have much chance with the violence route unless some sort of weapon of mass destruction is used or have the support to fledge war on a nation with the support of many other LARGER nations. Areil(sp?) Sharon is a terrorist, American troops in the middle east (Iraq, afganistan) are terrorists. This is probably one of the more hopeless situations in the world as of right now. As it is a war based on religion, greed and racism.

[guerrillaradio]

Two points:

#1 Whoever it was who claimed that all that is necessary to create peace is for Palestine to lay down its guns should check this quote from Malcom X: "there can be no peace without justice".

#2 Israel is an openly racist state. Quite apart from their actions in the occupied territories (bulldozing down Palestinian homes and giving them to Israelis etc), Israeli Arabs, whom comprise 20% of Israel's population, are pretty much second class citizens. They're not allowed to vote or stand for office.

[James]

Malcom X: "there can be no peace without justice".


Who shortly afterwards changed his philosophy completely; and was then murdered by those who were more intune with his previous frame-of-mind.

[BuyOurEverything]

This issue is not very complex. Jews have overrun Palestine. It is the duty of the Arab people to force the invaders to leave, like what they did during the crusades.

Wow, simply incredible. You do know what the crusades were, don't you? A campaign to drive the satanic Muslim hoardes out of the holy land in the name of God. If you're advocating a holy war against Jews in the holy land, you really need to pull your head out of your ass.


It’s as simple as that. If it were not for the Arab puppet leaders, the Jews would have left a long time ago.

The Jews would have left? Why?


The Jews should move to Texas and form their country there.

I really hope that was just a bad joke.


I'm so glad that leftists are starting to talk about the middle east situation logically.

I'm personally more of an Arab Nationalist.

Well if by leftist, you mean crazed Islamic fundamentalist, and by rationally, you mean racially/religiously, than yes you are correct. I'm baffled how any leftist can consider themself a nationalist.


I'm on the Palestinian side

And which side is that? Palestine doesn't exist, Israel doesn't exist. People exist on both sides, I think you need to remember why you became a leftist in the first place.


no exceptions and no liberal disclaimers about wishing they would be more peaceful.

So you don't want peace...?

[Cobra]

Wow, simply incredible. You do know what the crusades were, don't you? A campaign to drive the satanic Muslim hoardes out of the holy land in the name of God. If you're advocating a holy war against Jews in the holy land, you really need to pull your head out of your ass.
Your right, I probably should not have mentioned the crusades. But my point was that if the Arabs could take control of that land once, they could do it again. All they need is unity. And no, I’m not advocating Jihad. I’m advocating the right for the Arabs to take back the land that was stolen from them.

The Jews would have left? Why?
If puppet leaders were not ruling the Arab countries, the Arab countries would have forced the Jews to leave Palestine. The Jews would not stand a chance against Saudi Arabia’s mighty military.

I really hope that was just a bad joke.
What I said was not a joke. Just because the Jews don’t have a country does not give them a right to take someone else’s. There are more Jews living in the US than there is in Palestine. I’m sure the Jews in Palestine would feel at home living in the US.

The Jews have no right to live in that land. That land belongs to the Arabs.

[fuerzasocialista]

Honestly, I can't stand either one. I certainly don't agree with the Zionists stealing that land but at the same time I have no respect for people that openly embrace suicide bombings. Both sides practice terrorism cut and dry.

[h&s]

I think that the right of return should apply to any Palestinian, and the Jews, Muslims, and Christians should be able to live in the same, unified country.
It would have to be called Palestine though.
The whole Zionist movement is fundamently flawed, which is why I support Palestine.
What was the world thinking? Just 3 years after the ethnic-cleansing of Europe, they thought it would be a good idea to ethnically cleanse Palestine to make up for it! How does that make sense? :huh:
All politics should be completly separate from religion, which is why Israel should never exist.

[Dottie Commie]

This is getting unbelievable! When are the international community gonna step in here? The IDF have just fired into a crowd of Palestinians killing at least 10. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3728681.stm

[Dottie Commie]

Here's the Al Jazeera report http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/130...5DDC8CE7FCF.htm (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/130B11F6-E96E-4B3B-93CB-55DDC8CE7FCF.htm)

[h&s]

Yeah. The IDF's use of collective punishment is a war crime under the 4th Geneva convention. They make me sick!
At the moment all we seem to be bothered in are those pictures of Americans abusing Iraqis, but what about what the Israeli soldiers do to Palestinaians every day?
They take photos of themselves next to dead or dyng Palestinians!