I don't like Marx

[Subversive Pessimist]

I've shimmed through the Norwegian translation of the Communist Manifesto, and I have to say, it is one of the most silly works I've ever read. I'm sure it is a useful writing, but it is, in my opinion, just a bunch of rhetorics. I don't know if it is just in this language, so I will check the english version out before I make anymore comments.
Althought I like Lenin: The same goes for him who talk about "democratic peace". He sounds like a US president...


That is basically what I've learned when I've listened to politicians, officials etc. They use words like "mobs, gangs, terrorists, evil", or "democracy, peace, prosperity, justice, human rights, peace, liberty" etc. rhetorics (sic?).

When you look at what is left, there's nothing, or at least very little useful, and basically what I've read so far is a bunch of rethorics.. Now, I'm pretty sure I'm going to get slaughtered here, but that's my opinion.

A few of us, sadly enough, seem brainwashed. In example, a guy I know, read about some communist, and there were something about you should never have sex with a woman or something in that effect, and then he started looking at boys instead..

Like this guy I'm talking about, he treats guys like Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Kim or whatever like Gods, and Communism is their religion. So whatever these guys say, he'll follow their words without thinking... He forgets that these are only humans, like us. He, and a few other people, won't try to be a little critical. In example, he believes that EVERYTHING in North Korea is perfect. Nothing is wrong. "Socialist paradise", he said.

Another guy talked about how Che re-united the world and saved humanity and all that crap, and I thought: Che fought in a few countries, didn't do any big, military speaking, so why is he talking "saving humanity"? I admire Guevara, but he didn't save humanity.

By all means, it's OK to admire a person, but there's no need to preach them as Gods... I know most of you are good people who think of your own, but some of us, sadly enough, don't think for themselves. That's all. Thanks.

[Shredder]

The Communist Manifesto sweeps away scrutinizing research, long-winded theory, convoluted elucidation, in a word, run-on sentences, replacing them with poetic brevity. The theory is in there, somewhere. The Communist Manifesto was meant to grab the attention of the workers at the time it was written. It was a bare bones focal point of the labor movement.

As for the hero-worshipper, everyone needs a hero and some people worship them more than others.

[Morpheus]

Marxism is a religion.

[redstar2000]

I've skimmed through the Norwegian translation of the Communist Manifesto, and I have to say, it is one of the most silly works I've ever read. I'm sure it is a useful writing, but it is, in my opinion, just a bunch of rhetorics. I don't know if it is just in this language, so I will check the English version out before I make anymore comments.

The first time I read the Communist Manifesto I was about 12 or 13...and I simply didn't understand it. Nothing I had ever read before prepared me for it.


A few of us, sadly enough, seem brainwashed. In example, a guy I know, read about some communist, and there were something about you should never have sex with a woman or something in that effect, and then he started looking at boys instead..,

That's quite absurd; your sexual interests do not change because of what you've read.

If he's "looking at boys" now, it's because he's always been looking at boys...and you just didn't notice.


Like this guy I'm talking about, he treats guys like Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Kim or whatever like Gods, and Communism is their religion.

Unfortunately, that happens...and more often than one would wish.

If this guy actually read a lot from the works of Marx and Engels, he will discover that critical thinking is the focus of their efforts. But if all he ever does is put up pictures on his wall...he'll just be a groupie or a disciple.


By all means, it's OK to admire a person, but there's no need to preach them as Gods.

No reason at all.


As for the hero-worshiper, everyone needs a hero and some people worship them more than others.

I disagree. I think we can and should learn to do without hero-worshiping. It does little good and much harm.

What we need is more study and understanding of communist ideas and fewer worshipers of this or that "icon".

Then we won't have so many people saying "I don't like Marx" or "I like Lenin"...instead, people will say "I think Marx was wrong about this" or "I think Lenin was right about that" followed by evidence and rational argument.

And we will do much better in the real world.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[AC-Socialist]

No, it is true, the manifesto is pretty much pure rhetoric, but it does lay the foundations. For the deep philosophical and economic writings of marx try Kapital.

[ComradeRed]

Grundrisse is good as well, but very long. Try www.marxists.org for his works.

[James]

Like this guy I'm talking about, he treats guys like Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Kim or whatever like Gods, and Communism is their religion. So whatever these guys say, he'll follow their words without thinking... He forgets that these are only humans, like us. He, and a few other people, won't try to be a little critical. In example, he believes that EVERYTHING in North Korea is perfect. Nothing is wrong. "Socialist paradise", he said.


Is that kamo?

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Read The German Ideology, the Manifesto is Marxism by numbers, a good work but might not convince modern day intellectuals or whatever. This is due to the fact that its target audeince of workers of Marx's day and to be fair for it effect it had an enormous influence. To base a dislike of a philosopher on one work is highly irrational.

[Raisa]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2004, 09:51 PM


The first time I read the Communist Manifesto I was about 12 or 13...and I simply didn't understand it. Nothing I had ever read before prepared me for it.


What we need is more study and understanding of communist ideas and fewer worshipers of this or that "icon".

Then we won't have so many people saying "I don't like Marx" or "I like Lenin"...instead, people will say "I think Marx was wrong about this" or "I think Lenin was right about that" followed by evidence and rational argument.

And we will do much better in the real world.

:
Same here, I was a little younger. But I said " I have to understand this book. No one is going to understand it for me. They'll tell me what they think, and thats not what I want. " So I got a dictionary and I read the book. Because I realized I couldnever get a straight,complete, or unbiased answer, and thats what you do when you are me. You read the books yourself so you can develop your own opinion.

I agree with the second thing you said very much. Communism is not about icons, its about the people. You defeat the whole pourpose of being equal when you worsip some one.

[Raisa]

You can read all the things in the world but dont forget to think for yourself. Lenin doesnt live on my block. You know?

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

^lol what the fuck?

[Misodoctakleidist]

You should read Das Kapital or The German Ideology, if you didn't find the Communist Manifesto challenging then these two should satisfy you.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

There are very few people who would be able to read, well understand Das Kapital. The German Ideology is Marx's seminal work for those interested that like most of us would not be able to tackle Capital.

[The Feral Underclass]

Kapital is not that difficult to read if you have a basic understanding of Marx's theories. Have you tried to read it?

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Yep, I am not talking about myself, I mean for anybody who is new coming to Marx's ideas.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

By the few people I mean few people have a really solid grounding in Marx's ideas.

[The Feral Underclass]

I dont have a really solid grouding, but I get most of it...I find it ok to read....Hegel's 'Philosophy of Right' nis rediculous...i read the first page about 20 times and then gave up...now thats a book to be avoided..

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Well see here is where we are divided, I find Hegel easy enough to read whereas Capital seems difficult, I guess it depeneds on certain aspects of the person and what kind of grounding they have. I consider Hegel an essential background for Marx.

[monkeydust]

I'm with geist on the issue of Das Kapital.

Sure, you can read it quite easily.

But to fully understand it, takes quite a lot of effort.

What's more, the second half or so is easier than the first. Many get put off, assuming that the whole book's as hard as the early chapters, assuming that Marx is 'easing you into' the rest.

If you read it a few times you can probably understand it, but you really need to concentrate.

[Essential Insignificance]

While on the topic of "Capital".

I have had two previous attempts at reading capital and have failed dejectedly…finding it tremendously durable to get through the first chapter "commodities"…but finding other chapters to some extent, effortless to interpret throughout the volume.

I am on my third endeavour now…and it is going grand.

"Capital" is a work that is going to take time...but it will be worth it in the end.

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 9 2004, 02:46 PM
Kapital is not that difficult to read if you have a basic understanding of Marx's theories.
The problem is most people read it in order to gain a basic understanding of Marx's theories. If you already have that basic understanding there's not much point to reading it.

[Louis Pio]

QUOTE
Like this guy I'm talking about, he treats guys like Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Kim or whatever like Gods, and Communism is their religion. So whatever these guys say, he'll follow their words without thinking... He forgets that these are only humans, like us. He, and a few other people, won't try to be a little critical. In example, he believes that EVERYTHING in North Korea is perfect. Nothing is wrong. "Socialist paradise", he said.




Is that kamo?


James how can it be this is the only comments we get from you?

[Essential Insignificance]

The problem is most people read it in order to gain a basic understanding of Marx's theories. If you already have that basic understanding there's not much point to reading it.

I think it goes beyond an "basic" understanding of Marx theories of economics…a basic understanding of Marx’s economic theories would be easier read and revealed in his lectures that were later published…after his death.

After reading "Capital" one would have a enormous knowledge of Marx’s economic thoughts…you cannot go much further then "Capital" in one's pursuit of Marx’s thought.