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redstar2000
5th May 2004, 12:50
Noam Chomsky's detailed critiques of America's imperial adventures are a "staple" resource" among lefties all over the world.

His understanding of bourgeois electoral politics, however, suggest someone who is utterly clueless.

Here's what he said...


In a very powerful state, small differences may translate into very substantial effects on the victims, at home and abroad. It is no favor to those who are suffering, and may face much worse ahead, to overlook these facts. Keeping the Bush circle out means holding one's nose and voting for some Democrat, but that's not the end of the story. The basic culture and institutions of a democratic society have to be constructed, in part reconstructed, and defeat of an extremely dangerous clique in the presidential race is only one very small component of that.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cf...=22&ItemID=5128 (http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=22&ItemID=5128)

Note in particular the appeal to "reduce human suffering" by voting for the billionaire Kerry, who has already promised to "stay the course in Iraq" -- keep the imperial adventure going.

That seems to be at the root of all reformist political opinions. The job of the "left" is to "reduce human suffering"...no matter what it "takes".

One of the things it takes is gross historical ignorance.

Chomsky is old enough (like me) to remember when Lyndon Johnson (Democrat) was the "peace candidate" and Barry Goldwater (Republican) was the "warmonger". The human suffering of the Vietnamese that followed Johnson's election was on an enormous scale! More than a million Vietnamese were murdered by U.S. imperialism.

Unlike me, Chomsky is apparently succumbing to reformist senility.

Here it is in a form so simple that even a world-class linguist should be able to understand it.

1. Bush is a bastard!

2. Kerry is also a bastard!

3. They are all bastards!

All of them will "increase human suffering", period.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

truthaddict11
5th May 2004, 13:05
what the hell has happened to Noam?

ÑóẊîöʼn
5th May 2004, 13:07
That's rather disappointing, I'd thought someone like Chomsky would have more sense than that.

Hopefully he'll change his tune when he sees that Kerry is just as bad as Bush.

SittingBull47
5th May 2004, 13:29
yea that's an unsuspected turn. I feel different now that I own his "radical priorities".

Wenty
5th May 2004, 13:39
He doesn't even mention Kerry though does he? I've read some of Kerrys views on foreign policy, they seem much better than Bush's. America would benefit much more with him in power.

In fact, I emailed Chomsky once asking how he thinks we should aim for better Democracy. This is part of what he said in response:-


There are many ways to aim for a truer form of democracy. One simple way,
adopted in much of the world, is to keep to public funding of elections, so
that politics is not merely "the shadow cast across society by business,"
as John Dewey put it. Another is to build a genuine democratic culture,
as, say, in Brazil, so that elections are not simply a choice between one
or another representative of a very narrow sector of private power. And
there are many others. There's no one way. Too many dimensions.

The Feral Underclass
5th May 2004, 14:07
Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2004, 03:05 PM
what the hell has happened to Noam?
He got old.

The Feral Underclass
5th May 2004, 14:10
Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2004, 03:39 PM
I've read some of Kerrys views on foreign policy, they seem much better than Bush's. America would benefit much more with him in power.
Benifit how? For whom? Not the Iraqi people? Not the working class?

Commie Girl
5th May 2004, 14:21
I just read Hegemony or Survival and thought it was really good but it scared the shit out of me. He certainly has a good handle on the Bu$hies and their neocon agenda.

Blackberry
5th May 2004, 14:28
It is very concerning to read what Chomsky is now saying.

Before, from what I saw, he only hinted that voting for Kerry is 'the way to go' -- now he is blatantly stating that Bush has to be replaced, and via bourgeois democracy.

He has gone one step further, however, and is suggesting that bourgeois democracy should be tinkered with.

Redstar2000, I suggest you get a hold of his email address and correspond with him. It is obvious he is not being challenged on those views with any seriousness.

redstar2000
5th May 2004, 15:40
If anyone wishes to correspond with Professor Chomsky on this matter, here is his email address: [email protected]

I don't really have any desire to do so...it seems pointless. He is almost certain to be aware of the arguments against fooling around with bourgeois electoral politics...and has rejected them for reasons of his own.

I'm really not interested in his "reasons".

However, if anyone else wishes to "get on him" about this crap, go to it!

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

j.guevara
5th May 2004, 15:43
George Bush in power drives people to desperation and irrationality.

Heesh
5th May 2004, 19:42
"An article in Saturday's Guardian reports that left-wing icon Noam Chomsky has given his "reluctant endorsement to the Democratic party's presidential contender, John Kerry". Chomsky's support for Kerry is far from enthusiastic. He describes the choice between Bush and Kerry as one "between two factions of the business party" and Kerry as "Bush-lite", only a "fraction" better than his Republican opponent. But Chomsky argues that the current administration is exceptionally "cruel and savage" and "deeply committed to dismantling the achievements of popular struggle through the past century no matter what the cost to the general population." He concludes that "despite the limited differences [between Bush and Kerry] both domestically and internationally, there are differences. In a system of immense power, small differences can translate into large outcomes."


Chomsky's acceptance of the "anybody but Bush" position is sure to be influential, but on this occasion the arguments he offers represent wishful thinking rather than the clear-headed political analysis for which he is famous. There is no question that the Bush administration's policies are "cruel and savage", but John Kerry (along with the majority of Democrats in the Senate) supported most of them, including the war on Afghanistan, the Patriot Act, the war on Iraq, and the "No Child Left Behind" education act. As Marjorie Williams pointed out in the Washington Post recently, "Kerry voted for so many of Bush's major initiatives that in order to disown them now he can only argue that they were wrongly or dishonestly 'implemented.' This amounts to a confession that his opponent made a chump of him for the past three years. In fact, one might argue that Kerry is a poster boy for all the ways in which congressional Democrats have allowed themselves to be rolled by the Bush administration."


The Bush administration has pushed US politics sharply to the right, but this represents not a qualitative break with what came before but an extension and continuation of "cruel and savage" policies implemented by other administrations over the past 25 years, Democratic as well as Republican. Bush's attacks on civil liberties build on the legacy of Bill Clinton, including the 1996 Effective Death Penalty and Anti-Terrorist act (supported, incidentally, by Kerry). And while Bush is certainly committed to "dismantling the achievements of popular struggle through the past century no matter what the cost to the general population", nothing that he has yet done in terms of social policy has equaled the brutality of Clinton's gutting of the federal welfare system (again supported by Kerry).


In terms of foreign policy, the differences are even smaller. Kerry's criticisms of Bush are purely tactical, as was abundantly clear in a recent interview in Time magazine:


"Look, I'm prepared to take any action necessary to protect the country, and I'm prepared to act unilaterally if we have to," Kerry insists, noting that he backed the use of force in Grenada, Panama, Kosovo and Afghanistan. "But there is a way to do it that strengthens the hand of the United States. George Bush has weakened the hand of the United States."


In fact, Kerry wants to send an additional 40,000 troops to Iraq, advocates a "muscular internationalism" in the tradition of 20th-century Democratic presidents (whose foreign policy record was far bloodier than their Republican counterparts) and even refuses to rule out "preventive" wars. Chomsky is right that "small differences can translate into large outcomes", but this plays both ways. Kerry, for instance, may be in a better position than Bush to push through the reintroduction of the draft, just as it took a Democrat to implement welfare "reform."

Making decisions about the presidential election on the basis of the minute differences between the two major party candidates is ultimately a mug's game. Whoever wins in November, we'll need the biggest and most militant social movements on the ground to fight their policies, but when activists get sucked into support for the Democrats the movements are weakened and sometimes destroyed. In 1964, when the Republicans nominated the anti-communist fanatic Barry Goldwater as their candidate, anti-war activists thought they could go "Half the way with LBJ". But as the late Hal Draper remarked in a classic article on the politics of "lesser evilism":

... you know all the people who convinced themselves that Lyndon Johnson was the lesser evil as against Goldwater, who was going to do Horrible Things in Vietnam, like defoliating the jungles. Many of them have since realized that the spiked boot was on the other foot; and they lacerate themselves with the thought that the man they voted for "actually carried out Goldwater's policy." (In point of fact, this is unfair to Goldwater: he never advocated the steep escalation of the war that Johnson put through; and more to the point, he would probably have been incapable of putting it through with as little opposition as the man who could simultaneously hypnotize the liberals with "Great Society" rhetoric.)


"So who was really the Lesser Evil in 1964?" asked Draper. "The point is that it is the question which is a disaster, not the answer. In setups where the choice is between one capitalist politician and another, the defeat comes in accepting the limitation to this choice." The same is true in 2004. The most liberal administration of the past 35 years was led by Republican Richard Nixon, who was forced to respond to ghetto rebellions, wildcat strikes and radical social movements. But the historic role of the Democrats has been to muzzle such movements. If we choose Kerry over Bush, we make it more difficult to do the only thing that ever makes a difference for our side--building real activism on the ground.


Think again Noam.


Phil Gasper is professor of philosophy at Notre Dame de Namur University in California. He is a member of the National Writers Union and a frequent contributor to Socialist Worker and the International Socialist Review. He can be contacted at [email protected] This article originally appeared on Counterpunch.org, and is republished with permission from the author. '

STI
5th May 2004, 20:01
Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2004, 03:40 PM
If anyone wishes to correspond with Professor Chomsky on this matter, here is his email address: [email protected]

I don't really have any desire to do so...it seems pointless. He is almost certain to be aware of the arguments against fooling around with bourgeois electoral politics...and has rejected them for reasons of his own.

I'm really not interested in his "reasons".

However, if anyone else wishes to "get on him" about this crap, go to it!

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas
Aw, c'mon! I would LOVE to see the two of you 'go at it' here on che-lives. It'd be the most epic struggle since... well.... the time that those two really smart guys had a debate..... what were their names?

The Feral Underclass
5th May 2004, 20:23
I emailed him.

MiniOswald
5th May 2004, 20:52
i wonder why he changed so suddenly, dont seem to make much sense

The Feral Underclass
5th May 2004, 21:38
I wasnt going to go into indepth stuff and try and out wit Chomsky, so I asked him a very simple question.

"Do you support voting for John Kerry? If so why?"

His reply was this...


Have been asked about this so much a posted a form response, at Mike Albert's request. Below.

We have several choices to make. The first is whether we want to pay attention to the real world, or prefer to keep to abstract discussions suitable to some seminar. Suppose we adopt the first alternative. Then there is another choice: electing Bush or seeking to prevent his election. Naturally, Bush has an overwhelming funding advantage, thanks to the extraordinary gifts he lavishes on the super-rich and the corporate sector generally and his stellar record in demolishing the progressive legislation that has resulted from intense popular struggle over many years. Since US elections are pretty much bought, he will therefore win, unless there is a very powerful popular mobilization to overcome these enormous and usually decisive advantages. That leaves us with a choice: help elect Bush, or do something to try to prevent it.

It's a matter of judgment, of course, but mine is that those who favor electing Bush are making a very serious error. The people around him are likely to cause very serious, perhaps irreparable, harm if given another mandate. Activist movements, if at all serious, pay virtually no attention to which faction of the business party is in office, but continue with their daily work, from which elections are a diversion -- which we cannot ignore, any more than we can ignore the sun rising; they exist.

There are also tactical questions. Those who prefer to ignore the real world are also undermining any hope of reaching any popular constituency. Few are likely to pay attention to someone who approaches them by saying, loud and clear: "I don't care whether you have a slightly better chance to receive health care or to support your elderly mother; or whether there will be a physical environment in which your children might have a decent life; or a world in which children may escape destruction as a result of the violence that is inspired by the Rumsfeld-Wolfowitz-Cheney-etc. crowd, which could become extreme; and on, and on. Repeat: "slightly better." That matters to sensible people, surely the great mass of people who are the potential victims. So those who prefer to ignore the real world are also saying: "please ignore me." And they will achieve that result.

Redstar, please disect this and I will send him a reply.

elijahcraig
5th May 2004, 22:07
I see nothing wrong with someone supporting kerry in the way in which Chomsky is doing. He is not supporting Kerry, he is opposing Bush.



This "revolution" of Redstar's is far-off and idealistic. I find it pathetic to see someone who spends all of his time typing arrogantly formatted replies to teenagers insulting someone like Noam Chomsky.



I would like to see RedStar email him. Are you afraid? I am quite sure you would be "owned" by Noam, quickly.

Sean Reynolds
5th May 2004, 22:22
I think the problem here is that Kerry doesn't really offer much of a difference than Bush. And what difference he does offer will not help advance the leftis cause.

See the message I continually hear over and over is that we should compromise OUR beliefs this election and then WORK to get a candidate with a more liberal ideology elected in the future. As Arianna Huffington said, you can't talk about remodeling your house while it's on fire. BUT I don't agree with that belief. Why? Because we did the same exact thing in 1992.

There were more liberal candidates than Clinton running for the Democratic nomination. But too many Democrats wanted to get the Reagan era over with and knew the more liberal candidate couldn't beat Bush. SO they all voted for Clinton, he won the nomination and went on to beat Bush.

It's 2004, the Democrats are going to nominate a Clinton Democrat. It's deja vu. And I'm pretty sure Kerry is going to pick a conservative Democrat as his running mate. So that leaves us with a conservative running for the Democratic nomination when Kerry's two terms are up - assuming he beats Bush and wins re-election. Where does the revolution begin?

It can't begin because the Democratic Party doesn't want it to begin. They're a lost cause. They're a party that has whored itself out to the ideals of corporate greed and the only way we're going to change America is if we vote 3rd party. There aren't enough leftist people in the Democratic Party to really make a change. So if we continually vote for their candidates, the party will continually inch more and more to the right. Then we'll get a two party system that really is only ONE party under TWO name. Hell, it's almost like that today.


So yes, support Kerry if you want to prop up the Democratic right-wing ideals. It may get Bush out of office, but it'll only be for a few years. I'm sure yet again another fascist Republican will take control of the White House; since Republicans today at least HAVE ideas, whereas Democrats have shit.

Americans will always vote for the candidate with the most ideas. Even if they're not the best.

Right now we're seeing Kerry sinking because he lacks any real ideas. Bush doesn't. He's out there, whoring out his war on terror. Thats an idea. A big LIE, but an idea. He's whoring out the great economy. Another idea. Of course another big lie.

But it's an idea.

What the fuck is Kerry saying?

Vote for me, I'm sorta like Bush, but not quite?

redstar2000
6th May 2004, 01:40
We have several choices to make. The first is whether we want to pay attention to the real world, or prefer to keep to abstract discussions suitable to some seminar.

Or some message board...!

One of the things I've noticed is that when otherwise well-meaning people want to advocate a really shitty position, they preface it with an appeal to "paying attention to the real world".

Well, the real world is shitty...is it your wish to "accept" that?

In the "real world" we live in a period of reaction. The "real choices" are all reactionary.

In my opinion, we should be "unrealistic"...and even, on occasion, "utopian".

We should advocate what we really want...even if that makes us "ineffective", "dreamers", "not real players", blah, blah, blah.

When the first abolitionists began their agitation (in the early 1830s), "serious politicians" thought they were insignificant nutball dreamers at best and, at worst, a dangerous subversive threat to "the American way".

Less than four decades later, the Confederacy was a smoldering ruin and private property in slaves was history.

I think the lesson is quite clear: we should try, as best we can, for what we want...and then we'll see how we do.

If we support what we don't want...guess what we'll get?


Then there is another choice: electing Bush or seeking to prevent his election.

In "real world" terms, it's unlikely that the "left" (broadly defined) has the sheer numbers to do either. If the "left" portion of the American electorate is somewhere between 5 and 10 percent of the total, it would likely have to vote unanimously for Kerry or for Bush to affect the outcome.

In addition, the "left" electorate is concentrated in only three states -- New York, Massachusetts, and California...Bush can lose all three of those states and still win.


Since US elections are pretty much bought, [Bush] will therefore win, unless there is a very powerful popular mobilization to overcome these enormous and usually decisive advantages.

But why should there be "a very powerful popular mobilization" on behalf of a Bush clone -- Kerry?

In recent decades, up to half or more of all voting-age Americans have greeted our ceremonial "elections" with a big yawn...why should that change?


It's a matter of judgment, of course, but mine is that those who favor electing Bush are making a very serious error.

Well, I haven't heard of any lefties who argue that we should "actively support" Bush...but perhaps my circle of acquaintances is too narrow.

Or perhaps this is meant as a sort of back-handed criticism of those who propose to ignore the "elections" altogether; i.e., if you don't "actively support Kerry" "then" you must be "supporting" Bush.

Nonsense, of course.


The people around him are likely to cause very serious, perhaps irreparable, harm if given another mandate.

I think the "irreparable harm" was accomplished long ago...the Taft-Hartley Labor Relations Act (1949?) -- which barred freely elected communists from holding office in trade unions -- was the end of "civil liberties" for the left in the United States.

Since then, we have been "permanent outsiders" here, tolerated when we are weak and freely (and violently) persecuted whenever we show signs of strength.

To involve ourselves in bourgeois electoral politics is to pretend that we of the left are "real citizens" just like conservative Democrats and reactionary Republicans.

But, in their eyes, we are not part of the "Volk Community"...not real Americans at all.

Their eyes see more clearly than those of many lefties...we aren't part of their community. The sooner we realize that, the better we'll do.


Activist movements, if at all serious, pay virtually no attention to which faction of the business party is in office, but continue with their daily work, from which elections are a diversion -- which we cannot ignore, any more than we can ignore the sun rising; they exist.

An astounding sentence! On the one hand, Chomsky admits that bourgeois elections are a diversion from our real work...a true statement. And then, in the same sentence, asserts that we "cannot ignore them" because "they exist".

The Superbowl Half-Time Spectacular also "exists". Shall we take part?


Those who prefer to ignore the real world are also undermining any hope of reaching any popular constituency.

No one will listen to us unless we "take seriously" that which around half of all Americans already ignore.

It seems to me that our potential "popular constituency" is...rather large.

We are unlikely to "reach" them with a message of the "importance" of what they have already recognized as a pile of shit.


Few are likely to pay attention to someone who approaches them by saying, loud and clear: "I don't care whether you have a slightly better chance to receive health care or to support your elderly mother; or whether there will be a physical environment in which your children might have a decent life; or a world in which children may escape destruction as a result of the violence that is inspired by the Rumsfeld-Wolfowitz-Cheney-etc. crowd, which could become extreme; and on, and on. Repeat: "slightly better."

Repeat it a lot! If you repeat it often enough, some fool might believe it.

What ruling class politicians will actually do once elected is impossible to predict in detail...but it will always be bad unless there is massive discontent and even rebellion in the streets.

Telling people to vote for Kerry on the grounds that things might be "slightly better" for them in terms of social services is like constructing mathematical systems to "win the lottery". Even if possible, the real world result won't be very helpful...your ticket will still be a highly probable loser.

Note also the appeal to support Kerry on the grounds that if we don't, that means "we don't really care about people".

It's politics as charity -- a core message of reformism and also quite wide-spread among less sophisticated Leninists.

The message is that we of the left are "humanitarians"...in fact, we're "more humanitarian" than even Jimmy Carter or Mother Teresa. We are just here to "help people". We are "so good" and "so virtuous", right?

Wrong! We who are serious are here to abolish wage-slavery!

That is the human suffering that we wish to eliminate from the face of the planet. That is what will get rid of capitalists and their violent state machinery. That is what will make "all the goodies" freely available to all on the basis of need.

I have no quarrel with individuals who wish to personally devote their time and energies to the immediate alleviation of human suffering...though I do point out that they are unlikely to have any measurable impact on the totality of suffering. There's simply too much of it.

But I have a deep and profound quarrel with those who place "relieving human suffering" at the heart of our project; it would mean that we would never get around to attacking the root cause of human suffering...class society!

In this "election" and all of those to come, I think we should tell people the plain truth.

No one you vote for is going to change your life for the better!

If you want a better life, you'll have to fight for it.


So those who prefer to ignore the real world are also saying: "please ignore me." And they will achieve that result.

Oh dear. No cover of Time? No invitation to write an op-ed piece for the Washington Post? No face-time on the dummyvision?

What this is, really, is an appeal to egotism...a powerful appeal in class society. Many lefties have a pretty deep-rooted fear of being "ineffective" or, to put it another way, "unnoticed", "ignored", "insignificant", etc. By the standards of class society, your "status" is no better than that of some poor wino asleep on the sidewalk.

How "intolerable"!

I propose a different alternative: that we deliver our real message as best we can...and let time do its work.

If we do our real job and do it well, the time will come when the bourgeois media will come calling and we will be "significant" and no longer "ignored".

And when they do show, by the way, my advice is that we should tell them to fuck off! They are a bunch of professional liars, are they not?

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

Commie Girl
6th May 2004, 02:46
Seems to me, as a non-u$ citizen, that there are huge problems with the amount of money the 2 candidates spend to buy the white house. What are the rules? Where is the accountability? Is this system acceptable to the U$ population?

left for dead
6th May 2004, 04:24
Seems to me, as a non-u$ citizen, that there are huge problems with the amount of money the 2 candidates spend to buy the white house. What are the rules? Where is the accountability? Is this system acceptable to the U$ population?

Well there really are no rules. Besides limiting private donations from individual citizens to $1,000 and limiting PACs(political action committees) donations to $5,000, a candidate can raise as much money as he can. Since the United States is a TV nation most of the money goes towards paying for commercial air time. There is a federal election commission that regulates and discloses campaign funds, and there is some debate in congress to reform campaign funding. Other than that, it's a free-for-all(I mean for two.)

Shredder
6th May 2004, 05:31
I propose a different alternative: that we deliver our real message as best we can...and let time do its work.

Agitate & wait? This is the type of infantile ultra-left behavior that must be avoided. Infantile, because any preschooler or above is familiar with the following lyrics:


Let's think of something to do while we're waiting
While we're waiting for something new to do.
Let's try to think up a song while we're waiting
That's liberating and will be true to you.
-Fred Rogers, Mr. Roger's Neighborhood

Chomsky isn't a sellout just because he wants Bush out now. You don't get downgraded to social democrat just because you vote in a bourgeois election. Heed the words of Mr. Rogers. You can get your "real message" across and wait, or you could get the message across and then do everything else in your power to defend the working class.

The Feral Underclass
6th May 2004, 06:03
Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2004, 03:40 AM

We have several choices to make. The first is whether we want to pay attention to the real world, or prefer to keep to abstract discussions suitable to some seminar.

Or some message board...!

One of the things I've noticed is that when otherwise well-meaning people want to advocate a really shitty position, they preface it with an appeal to "paying attention to the real world".

Well, the real world is shitty...is it your wish to "accept" that?

In the "real world" we live in a period of reaction. The "real choices" are all reactionary.

In my opinion, we should be "unrealistic"...and even, on occasion, "utopian".

We should advocate what we really want...even if that makes us "ineffective", "dreamers", "not real players", blah, blah, blah.

When the first abolitionists began their agitation (in the early 1830s), "serious politicians" thought they were insignificant nutball dreamers at best and, at worst, a dangerous subversive threat to "the American way".

Less than four decades later, the Confederacy was a smoldering ruin and private property in slaves was history.

I think the lesson is quite clear: we should try, as best we can, for what we want...and then we'll see how we do.

If we support what we don't want...guess what we'll get?


Then there is another choice: electing Bush or seeking to prevent his election.

In "real world" terms, it's unlikely that the "left" (broadly defined) has the sheer numbers to do either. If the "left" portion of the American electorate is somewhere between 5 and 10 percent of the total, it would likely have to vote unanimously for Kerry or for Bush to affect the outcome.

In addition, the "left" electorate is concentrated in only three states -- New York, Massachusetts, and California...Bush can lose all three of those states and still win.


Since US elections are pretty much bought, [Bush] will therefore win, unless there is a very powerful popular mobilization to overcome these enormous and usually decisive advantages.

But why should there be "a very powerful popular mobilization" on behalf of a Bush clone -- Kerry?

In recent decades, up to half or more of all voting-age Americans have greeted our ceremonial "elections" with a big yawn...why should that change?


It's a matter of judgment, of course, but mine is that those who favor electing Bush are making a very serious error.

Well, I haven't heard of any lefties who argue that we should "actively support" Bush...but perhaps my circle of acquaintances is too narrow.

Or perhaps this is meant as a sort of back-handed criticism of those who propose to ignore the "elections" altogether; i.e., if you don't "actively support Kerry" "then" you must be "supporting" Bush.

Nonsense, of course.


The people around him are likely to cause very serious, perhaps irreparable, harm if given another mandate.

I think the "irreparable harm" was accomplished long ago...the Taft-Hartley Labor Relations Act (1949?) -- which barred freely elected communists from holding office in trade unions -- was the end of "civil liberties" for the left in the United States.

Since then, we have been "permanent outsiders" here, tolerated when we are weak and freely (and violently) persecuted whenever we show signs of strength.

To involve ourselves in bourgeois electoral politics is to pretend that we of the left are "real citizens" just like conservative Democrats and reactionary Republicans.

But, in their eyes, we are not part of the "Volk Community"...not real Americans at all.

Their eyes see more clearly than those of many lefties...we aren't part of their community. The sooner we realize that, the better we'll do.


Activist movements, if at all serious, pay virtually no attention to which faction of the business party is in office, but continue with their daily work, from which elections are a diversion -- which we cannot ignore, any more than we can ignore the sun rising; they exist.

An astounding sentence! On the one hand, Chomsky admits that bourgeois elections are a diversion from our real work...a true statement. And then, in the same sentence, asserts that we "cannot ignore them" because "they exist".

The Superbowl Half-Time Spectacular also "exists". Shall we take part?


Those who prefer to ignore the real world are also undermining any hope of reaching any popular constituency.

No one will listen to us unless we "take seriously" that which around half of all Americans already ignore.

It seems to me that our potential "popular constituency" is...rather large.

We are unlikely to "reach" them with a message of the "importance" of what they have already recognized as a pile of shit.


Few are likely to pay attention to someone who approaches them by saying, loud and clear: "I don't care whether you have a slightly better chance to receive health care or to support your elderly mother; or whether there will be a physical environment in which your children might have a decent life; or a world in which children may escape destruction as a result of the violence that is inspired by the Rumsfeld-Wolfowitz-Cheney-etc. crowd, which could become extreme; and on, and on. Repeat: "slightly better."

Repeat it a lot! If you repeat it often enough, some fool might believe it.

What ruling class politicians will actually do once elected is impossible to predict in detail...but it will always be bad unless there is massive discontent and even rebellion in the streets.

Telling people to vote for Kerry on the grounds that things might be "slightly better" for them in terms of social services is like constructing mathematical systems to "win the lottery". Even if possible, the real world result won't be very helpful...your ticket will still be a highly probable loser.

Note also the appeal to support Kerry on the grounds that if we don't, that means "we don't really care about people".

It's politics as charity -- a core message of reformism and also quite wide-spread among less sophisticated Leninists.

The message is that we of the left are "humanitarians"...in fact, we're "more humanitarian" than even Jimmy Carter or Mother Teresa. We are just here to "help people". We are "so good" and "so virtuous", right?

Wrong! We who are serious are here to abolish wage-slavery!

That is the human suffering that we wish to eliminate from the face of the planet. That is what will get rid of capitalists and their violent state machinery. That is what will make "all the goodies" freely available to all on the basis of need.

I have no quarrel with individuals who wish to personally devote their time and energies to the immediate alleviation of human suffering...though I do point out that they are unlikely to have any measurable impact on the totality of suffering. There's simply too much of it.

But I have a deep and profound quarrel with those who place "relieving human suffering" at the heart of our project; it would mean that we would never get around to attacking the root cause of human suffering...class society!

In this "election" and all of those to come, I think we should tell people the plain truth.

No one you vote for is going to change your life for the better!

If you want a better life, you'll have to fight for it.


So those who prefer to ignore the real world are also saying: "please ignore me." And they will achieve that result.

Oh dear. No cover of Time? No invitation to write an op-ed piece for the Washington Post? No face-time on the dummyvision?

What this is, really, is an appeal to egotism...a powerful appeal in class society. Many lefties have a pretty deep-rooted fear of being "ineffective" or, to put it another way, "unnoticed", "ignored", "insignificant", etc. By the standards of class society, your "status" is no better than that of some poor wino asleep on the sidewalk.

How "intolerable"!

I propose a different alternative: that we deliver our real message as best we can...and let time do its work.

If we do our real job and do it well, the time will come when the bourgeois media will come calling and we will be "significant" and no longer "ignored".

And when they do show, by the way, my advice is that we should tell them to fuck off! They are a bunch of professional liars, are they not?

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas
I have emailed him this response...sometimes he just sends an email telling how busy he is and how he cant respond to long emails....but we will see.

peaccenicked
6th May 2004, 08:43
Kerry is no different and perhaps worse than Bush. http://www.rense.com/general51/kerry.htm
The only excuse that looks slightly rational apart from the national debt which in this context is mostly a imperialist concern of managing capitalism is the symbolism
of a flabby 'left wing' tint (a sort of invisible shade of pink)that colours the Democratic Party which is absent from the more right wing true blue patriotic Republicans.
This difference is so minuscule in the real world that to vote for either one is
tantamount to a betrayal of the anti-imperialist movement.

Chomsky and more importantly those who dont want to be duped into this course of action should see that at least one of the most repulsive achievements of voting Democrat is to help decieve Arab Americans.

http://www.palestinechronicle.com/story.ph...040429121736115 (http://www.palestinechronicle.com/story.php?sid=20040429121736115)

Wenty
6th May 2004, 11:09
Did anyone actually read his response to my email? Its on the 1st page.

If you think about it its a miracle he responds at all. He must get so much mail.

redstar2000
6th May 2004, 12:55
Agitate & wait? This is the type of infantile ultra-left behavior that must be avoided.

Infantile ultra-left behavior? :o

Well, the "ultra-left" part is true enough, I suppose.

But you left out the explanation of how participation in bourgeois ceremonial "elections" demonstrates your "maturity".

A song lyric is not an explanation.


Chomsky isn't a sellout just because he wants Bush out now. You don't get downgraded to social democrat just because you vote in a bourgeois election.

I did not speculate on Professor Chomsky's compensation. I simply argued that he was clueless -- like yourself -- with regard to bourgeois electoral politics.

Also, it's not simply a matter of "voting"...Chomsky clearly stated that he wants "a very powerful popular mobilization" on behalf of Kerry and the implication is that he expects us to do that.


Heed the words of Mr. Rogers. You can get your "real message" across and wait, or you could get the message across and then do everything else in your power to defend the working class.

Probably the first time in history that "Comrade Rogers" has been promoted to the level of "defender of the working class" and theoretical adviser to Che-Lives.

Tell me about who is "infantile" again...I forgot.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

Shredder
6th May 2004, 20:03
It is not participating in the "bourgeois ceremony" that makes one mature. It is simply making the right choice when someone presents an opportunity before you.

Here we have the opportunity to oust Bush, with a lesser evil. As Chomsky already told you, the choice is between electing Bush, preventing his election, or endlessly pontificating about the matter on a forum.

The idea that Kerry is the same candidate as Bush is suitable for comparing our ideology to theirs. But the comparison we are to make is between Kerry and Bush. And in that comparison, believe it or not, you will see "small differences" that "may translate into very substantial effects on the victims."

Your plan is to draw attention to your ideas by ignoring an opportunity. But what about those in hard-hats and hunched over keyboards who are too busy to pay attention to you? Let them be the "victims"? You probably can't achieve class consciousness by attrition.

Kerry and Bush are not the same. Today Kerry's campaign sent me some mail asking for a donation. It contained a letter explaining the details of Kerry's campaign. The letter could have easily been written by someone on Che-Lives complaining about capitalism in general. It was overflowing with one-liners about education, health care, the environment, etc.

Of course it was just blowing steam. But just as in physics, when there is so much steam in such a little space, you're bound to get some condensation.

You don't have to praise Kerry in order to have a very popular mobilization for him. You just need people saying "Vote Kerry even though HE SUCKS." We will replace Bush with Kerry, but we will keep the same intensity of attacks against his policies. We will move them to the left until every John Doe realizes how little they move at all, and then we will have achieved a popular movement.

elijahcraig
6th May 2004, 21:17
Chomsky is old enough (like me) to remember when Lyndon Johnson (Democrat) was the "peace candidate" and Barry Goldwater (Republican) was the "warmonger". The human suffering of the Vietnamese that followed Johnson's election was on an enormous scale! More than a million Vietnamese were murdered by U.S. imperialism.



You should just email that to him Redstar.

Don't Change Your Name
7th May 2004, 00:53
Originally posted by The Anarchist Tension+May 5 2004, 02:07 PM--> (The Anarchist Tension @ May 5 2004, 02:07 PM)
[email protected] 5 2004, 03:05 PM
what the hell has happened to Noam?
He got old. [/b]
You're right.

And that seems to be affecting redstar too. I'm surprised he still worries about "who's more evil: the monkey that rules now or the one from the opposite party?"

redstar2000
7th May 2004, 01:05
It is not participating in the "bourgeois ceremony" that makes one mature. It is simply making the right choice when someone presents an opportunity before you.

But isn't that what is in dispute? Is it an opportunity or just an "opportunity" -- like the "choice" between Windows 2000© and Windows XP©.


Here we have the opportunity to oust Bush, with a lesser evil.

That assumes that (1) Kerry really is the "lesser evil" and (2) That there's anything to be gained by "choosing evil".

I don't think either of those assumptions is worth a puddle of warm spit.


As Chomsky already told you, the choice is between electing Bush, preventing his election, or endlessly pontificating about the matter on a forum.

Of those options, I choose pontification and gladly. At least I will not be lying to people about "lesser evils".


But the comparison we are to make is between Kerry and Bush. And in that comparison, believe it or not, you will see "small differences" that "may translate into very substantial effects on the victims."

The "butterfly" effect, no doubt.

Sorry, I don't really accept the idea that a butterfly's wings in China can generate a hurricane in the Caribbean.

Nor do I think that Kerry's election will make any measurable difference in social reality.


But what about those in hard-hats and hunched over keyboards who are too busy to pay attention to you? Let them be the "victims"?

They will be "victims" no matter who is in the White House.


Kerry and Bush are not the same.

Yes they are!


Today Kerry's campaign sent me some mail asking for a donation. It contained a letter explaining the details of Kerry's campaign. The letter could have easily been written by someone on Che-Lives complaining about capitalism in general.

That's probably true...and unfortunate. We have many people here who are still far too influenced by bourgeois liberalism.

The real difference is that people here will learn better while Kerry is just another fucking liar.


You don't have to praise Kerry in order to have a very popular mobilization for him. You just need people saying "Vote Kerry even though HE SUCKS."

An inspiring message, all right.


We will replace Bush with Kerry, but we will keep the same intensity of attacks against his policies.

In other words, you will attack the guy you just finished telling people to vote for.

How clever.

And what a way to earn people's respect.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

peaccenicked
7th May 2004, 13:34
If the issue is 'Small differences having a large effect on victims" then it shows how deep reactionary opportunistic thinking has influenced Chomsky. It is utterly defeatist and legitimises the two party state in reality. How long do we want tweedledum and tweedle dumber to swindle the public with their mostly unchallenged simplistic rhetoric?It is moreso ugly because it is coming from a respected leftist who along with the pro democrat Micheal Moore command much respect and influence for holding anti corporate views.
The choice between lesser evils is no choice at all. If Americans vote at all it should be for candidates that have opposed the war from before it began and for an end of the occupation now.
Voting for anything less is downright criminal.
Arguing with Chomsky via email seems rather pointless.
If he holds a public forum for debate that is a different matter.
Turning "the coalition of the willing'' into the coalition of the very unwilling is the utmost priority for revolutionary democrats everywhere, this means organising as far as possible in our localities demonstrations or even vigils against the occupation which is intrinsically violent against the Iraqi people. Let every vote caste be an anti war vote and I would encourage those who given up completely on electoral politics to make this gesture.

The Feral Underclass
7th May 2004, 14:06
The email address I use to email the likes of Chomsky has one email..its definatly from him, no one else emails me on that email because i dont use it...unfortunatly hotmail is fucked so I cant get to it...

The Feral Underclass
7th May 2004, 14:29
Yeah...it turns out its not him but the american government offering me the chance to become and american....I turned them down naturally :P

elijahcraig
7th May 2004, 20:55
Kerry is no different and perhaps worse than Bush. http://www.rense.com/general51/kerry.htm
The only excuse that looks slightly rational apart from the national debt which in this context is mostly a imperialist concern of managing capitalism is the symbolism
of a flabby 'left wing' tint (a sort of invisible shade of pink)that colours the Democratic Party which is absent from the more right wing true blue patriotic Republicans.
This difference is so minuscule in the real world that to vote for either one is
tantamount to a betrayal of the anti-imperialist movement.

Chomsky and more importantly those who dont want to be duped into this course of action should see that at least one of the most repulsive achievements of voting Democrat is to help decieve Arab Americans.

http://www.palestinechronicle.com/story.ph...040429121736115

Are you aware the Palestine Chronicle has Chomsky on its board of editors?


QUOTE
Kerry and Bush are not the same.


Yes they are!


If you see no difference whatsoever, you are very much a moron.

Kerry supports abortion, evolution being taught in schools, global warming protection, and many other things which Bush does not. He also opposes the tax cuts for the rich Bush supports.

They are no different when it comes to external policy towards foreign countries. At least in material outcomes.

DaCuBaN
7th May 2004, 22:51
Sorry, I don't really accept the idea that a butterfly's wings in China can generate a hurricane in the Caribbean.

Nor do I think that Kerry's election will make any measurable difference in social reality

I think it would make a visible difference - for one thing the US would gain some international trust again, and war crimes could be brought against baby bush (I know, dreaming again :rolleyes: )

This is exactly what we (well, I) don't want. Having a figurehead that is despised by the populous is a good thing when what you want is a revolution.

redstar2000
7th May 2004, 23:10
If you see no difference whatsoever, you are very much a moron.

Kerry supports abortion, evolution being taught in schools, global warming protection, and many other things which Bush does not. He also opposes the tax cuts for the rich Bush supports.

Dear me. Yet another innocent who evidently "thinks" that what bourgeois politicians say has some relationship to what they do!

Read carefully and take notes: bourgeois politicians may say anything they wish; once elected, they may do whatever they please.

There is no requirement that they tell the truth.

In fact, as was noted many decades ago, the functional definition of an "honest (bourgeois) politician" is that he stays bought.

Neither Bush nor Kerry meet even that modest standard.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

peaccenicked
8th May 2004, 09:43
Take a look at Clinton. Remember him.
http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/460/...8_Clinton.shtml (http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/460/460_08_Clinton.shtml)

Agent provocateur
8th May 2004, 15:03
Register your solidarity with the people of Iraq by voting Nader for peace !


http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0506-04.htm

www.votenader.org

redstar2000
8th May 2004, 15:22
Register your solidarity with the people of Iraq by voting Nader for peace!

Well, yeah, if you have an absolutely irresistible urge to vote -- like a junkie who needs a "fix", then by all means crawl to the polls and vote for the left-bourgeois Nader.

He won't win but at least he actually is a "lesser evil".

Better still, of course, would be to recognize that bourgeois elections are a just another form of entertainment...and have nothing to do with real politics at all!

"When will they ever learn...?"

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

Comité De Salut Public
8th May 2004, 19:11
Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2004, 03:22 PM

Register your solidarity with the people of Iraq by voting Nader for peace!

Well, yeah, if you have an absolutely irresistible urge to vote -- like a junkie who needs a "fix", then by all means crawl to the polls and vote for the left-bourgeois Nader.

He won't win but at least he actually is a "lesser evil".

Better still, of course, would be to recognize that bourgeois elections are a just another form of entertainment...and have nothing to do with real politics at all!

"When will they ever learn...?"

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas
You've been reading too much Lenin! State and Revolution says things like what you suggest. But you err when you characterize Nader as a petit-bourgeois politician. Nader lives on $24,000 thousand dollars a year and while he has a couple of million dollars in the stock market that money goes to charity. Nader does not own a home or a car. There's nothin wrong with that. Nader made his fortune making speeches not exploiting ketchup workers like Kerry's wife or Arabs like Bush's family oil business.

Morpheus
8th May 2004, 21:28
Originally posted by "chomsky"
Few are likely to pay attention to someone who approaches them by saying, loud and clear: "I don't care whether you have a slightly better chance to receive health care or to support your elderly mother; or whether there will be a physical environment in which your children might have a decent life; or a world in which children may escape destruction as a result of the violence that is inspired by the Rumsfeld-Wolfowitz-Cheney-etc. crowd, which could become extreme; and on, and on.

Well, I'm one of those 40 million who doesn't have health care and I'm not voting for Kerry. Democrats always rant about healthcare, abortion, etc. every four years but it's just rhetoric designed to shore up their base, it doesn't mean anything. Look at Clinton. Indeed, Chomsky's logic quoted above is internally contradictory: the poor & people of color are the least likely to vote. The whiter you are and the richer you are the more likely you are to vote. The people he claims we shouldn't be telling "I don't care if you have a slightly better chance at helthcare, etc." are also the pople most likely not to vote.

redstar2000
8th May 2004, 22:08
But you err when you characterize Nader as a petite-bourgeois politician.

No I don't. I'm not talking about his net worth or how he spends his income, I'm talking about his actual ideas and what his practice has been over the decades.

He wants to reform capitalism and make it work more "fairly" and "rationally". That's always been the historical role of the "left" bourgeoisie; Nader would have made a terrific running-mate for Franklin D. Roosevelt.

Of course now he's an anachronism...a kind of living fossil. The ruling class is no longer even verbally interested in "reform" or "fairness"...possibly because they simply can't afford it any longer. The new "mantra" of capitalism is "lean and mean" -- the first word referring to the conditions of the working class and the second word referring to the ruling class.

There aren't going to be any more successful Franklin D. Roosevelt's.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

peaccenicked
10th May 2004, 08:49
If I lived in the USA,I think I would vote for Nader, not for reasons of principle, but for tactical ones. I think I would consider that anti consumerist, anti imperialist working class politics is largely marginalised in the middle of a time when they have most been objectively needed.
Reducio absurdum or the Socratic method is overshadowed by the blatant farce
sorrounding Iraq. Ritualised pro war idiocy is being put in a very uncomfortable place.
What characterises Bourgeios "democracy" in the West is the two party System which is a diguise for a one party state which is the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie,
which has usurped the universal franchise by controlling how it is financed. It has become and the vote was only conceded when the rich felt they were secure. It has become a rich man's democracy.
While the level of class struggle is relatively low, in that its height at irregular antiwar demos, electoral politics (which I consider too boring to be entertainment)
is a larger focus. The bourgeiosie still largely set the agenda.
Nader though he may have disagreeable politics can provide a counter focus that can be tied into the anti war movement.
Some of the arguments here also apply.
http://www.socialistalternative.org/justice22/4.html

Severian
11th May 2004, 09:07
Look, the labor movement's been working to elect Democrats for how many decades now? What results are there to show for it?

All this "I don't want to wait" stuff....hello! We've been waiting for decades for the "lesser evil" strategy to show some kind of results! And I for one ain't willing to wait any longer.

What has brought results is mass action. Don't wait for Kerry, Nader, or anyone else to act for you; act yourself. Strikes; the civil rights movement, the mass movement against the Vietnam War, etc. They've extracted concessions from the ruling class regardless of who happens to represent that ruling class in the White House.

The liberals Kennedy and Johnson began the Vietnam War, the conservative Nixon ended it...when the struggle of the Vietnamese, first, and the antiwar movement here and around the world, second, made him do so.

How about Roe v Wade? Decided in large part by a bunch of Nixon-appointed and other Republican-appointed judges...thanks to the rising women's movement and above all to the fact that just-beginning movement came after the other mass movements of the 60s and 70s.

You don't have to "wait for the revolution"...though actions for immediate goals should, IMO, be part of a strategy aiming towards revolution. What you do have to do, is rely on the working class to fight for ourselves, not on some exploiter to do something for us.

Reforms are a byproduct of the revolutionary struggle...and the emancipation of the working class can only be the act of the workers ourselves.

Edit: about Chomsky. His good side has always been, as Eqbal Ahmad once put it ""He has never wavered. He has never fallen into the trap of saying, 'Clinton will do better.' Or 'Nixon was bad but Carter at least had a human rights presidency.' There is a consistency of substance, of posture, of outlook in his work. Consistency, of course, means repetition. Over the last twenty years, Chomsky has repeated himself a lot...the truth has to be repeated. It doesn't become stale just because it has been told once."

Well, now he has wavered, and fallen into that trap. He acts as if he's forgotten what he's always said, that the disagreements between Democrats and Republicans, whether small or large, are tactical disagreements about how best to maximize domination and exploitation.

Marxist in Nebraska
12th May 2004, 21:36
Great arguments, Severian.

I am reminded of when Michael Moore called Richard Nixon "our [American] last liberal president." Of course, Nixon was no liberal. There was considerable atmosphere of protest here at the time, and Nixon had to bend to it to prevent a widening revolutionary attitude.

You and the others who have made the case against Chomsky's reluctant endorsement of Kerry are right to suggest that Kerry is no significant improvement. Chomsky, though, is alarmed that four more years of Bush could cause massive, irreparable damage.

I think Chomsky is reasonable in thinking this way. Just look at how much Bush has done, or undone in some instances, in three and a half years. Then consider Bush has to hold back on his attacks to be able to trick some swing voters this year. Because of term limits, he cannot run again in 2012. What will Bush be bold enough to do if he is given four years with no incentive for another term? The possiblities are frightening.

I feel it is reasonable to go with the lesser evil in this election. Not because John Kerry is our savior, not because the Democratic Party does or will ever support the working class, but because we do not seem to have any significant social organization to make real change. The milder reactionary, the worst characterization of Kerry that I consider reasonable, will attempt and do less damage as we try to build efforts toward a truly better world.

I look at voting for Kerry as an effort toward buying more time. I find it odious, and I am relieved on some levels to be in such a staunchly Republican state because I can vote for Nader or a Green candidate. Unless Nader really shows a chance at winning the election, I would vote for Kerry in a "battleground state."

redstar2000
13th May 2004, 01:27
Chomsky, though, is alarmed that four more years of Bush could cause massive, irreparable damage.

I replied to this already, but it clearly needs repeating...


I think the "irreparable harm" was accomplished long ago...the Taft-Hartley Labor Relations Act (1949?) -- which barred freely elected communists from holding office in trade unions -- was the end of "civil liberties" for the left in the United States.

Since then, we have been "permanent outsiders" here, tolerated when we are weak and freely (and violently) persecuted whenever we show signs of strength.

To involve ourselves in bourgeois electoral politics is to pretend that we of the left are "real citizens" just like conservative Democrats and reactionary Republicans.

But, in their eyes, we are not part of the "Volk Community"...not real Americans at all.

Their eyes see more clearly than those of many lefties...we aren't part of their community. The sooner we realize that, the better we'll do.

I've been reading recently a book about Germany from 1900-1933 (Einstein in Berlin). One of the interesting points was how hard many German Jews tried to "prove themselves" to be "real Germans".

It did them no good at all!

Trying to prove that we of the left are "real Americans" will do us no good at all!

Here is a proposal some of you may find of interest...

http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?s...ndpost&p=392257 (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=24823&view=findpost&p=392257)

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

Severian
17th May 2004, 10:11
Originally posted by Marxist in [email protected] 12 2004, 03:36 PM
What will Bush be bold enough to do if he is given four years with no incentive for another term?
Conceivably less than Kerry would do...with liberals, labor officials, and many leftists going easier on him than they would on Bush. I'd say that Bush has taken some irreversible blows to his credibility and will be able to drive through fewer attacks against working people in the future.

And it seems to me that sections of the ruling class have drawn the same conclusion...why has the Abu Ghraib torture scandal broken out into the bourgeois media, and received so much attention? It's not news that the U.S. military has been torturing people. It's been known going back to 2002. The pictures are part of it...but don't fully explain why sections of the media are positively crusading around it, demanding Rumsfeld's resignation, etc., rather than joining the cover-up excuse that it was just a few MPs.

Or all that stuff around the 9/11 commission and Rice's testimony...it was turned into a positive scandal. And scandals are part of how sections of the ruling class go after political figures they want to get rid of, as we saw with Clinton.

Many people will have the illusion that Kerry is at least a little better, and he'll be able to get away with more until that illusion wears off. Just as it took Clinton to "end welfare as we know it."


but because we do not seem to have any significant social organization to make real change.

And that will remain the case as long as the labor movement remains tied to the Democratic Party.

Skeptic
18th May 2004, 01:54
Good post Redstar2000, interesting information. Noam Chompsky also has stated that when he looks into the case of John Kennedy being assassinated he finds that conspiracy theories do not add up. So I get the impression that Chompsky believes that a lone nut, Lee Harvey Oswald killed JFK. --Skeptic

Blackberry
26th May 2004, 12:41
Found this interesting:


Pushing The Envelope - 24th May
By Joseph Toscano, Libertarian Workers For A Self-Managed Society

Politics is just the art of the achievable. The unachievable can be achieved by thinking laterally. The range of ideas that are aired in the public domain at that particular time determines how people look at an issue. It is a mistake to limit your thoughts to what you think people think are practical and achievable goals. In order to achieve what you think is impossible, you must demand the impossible.

As radical activists, our goal is to raise, debate and propagate our ideas in the community. Whether people think they are impractical or impossible isn't the issue. Limiting ourselves to demanding the predictable reinforces the idea that change is impossible. Change is possible, practical and achievable if the envelope debate is contained in is expanded. Atheism only becomes an option in a religious society when the option of an existence without God is raised. If it's not raised, it doesn't exist.

Elections in parliamentary democracies are accompanied by a dampening down of political demands. What is possible is contained within a strictly limited number of ideas. Everybody is expected to join the game and direct preferences to reform minded candidates. Radical alternatives disappear from the radar screen, politics is reduced to mobilising voters to vote for the candidate that is promoting a reform agenda. Nothing else matters.

Discussion is reduced to predictable diatribes about what is thought to be achievable. With each election, the scope of political debate is reduced to a minimalist position. Radicals become reformers, reformers become conservatives and conservatives become neo-conservatives. The voter's choice is limited to casting a ballot for people pursuing the same political and ideological agenda. The Labor Party in Australia is transformed to the Alternative Liberal Party, the Greens become the Labor Party and the Liberal Party becomes apologist for dreams of neo-conservative world domination.

Expanding the envelope about what is possible, desirable and achievable is a revolutionary act. As activists, we need to break down the intellectual and social barriers that limit the debate about ideas to debates that reinforce and support the status quo. Open your mouth, articulate your desires and create that new world in your heart.

Source: http://anarchistmedia.org/weekly.html