WE NEED A NEW LEFT-WING PARTY IN THE UK!

[democratic-socialist]

The UK's political scene is governed by only 3 parties:
- The Liberal democrats (Centre-wing)
- The Conservatives (Mid right-wing)
- New Labour (Centre right-wing)

It is time for a new left-wing political party in the UK that actually has a chance of being voted into power! Firstly, I think that revolution is not the way forward to a more left-wing world. The majority of people must vote for it, not revolt for it. We dont want another Russia situation, when in fact the majority of people DID NOT actually want a revolution! This new parties policies must be fairly right wing to start with, so that people will actually vote for them. Once in power the political shift to the left would happen. Eventually, I think we should reach a political position similar to that of the Spanish Socialist party. Once this is doen, hopefully with the springing up of socialist parties across Europe, the rest of Europe will hopefully follow. I want a united Europe, but a democratic socialist one, based iun a left wing capitalist system.

Thats just my thoughts though... Any suggestions on a new political party that can realistically get voted in any time soon? etc... :blink:

[MiniOswald]

nice plan but the british public will always end up on the right, corprate britain, always has been always will be. Sorry but i dont think its gonna go, those damned old people keep voting to the right and they always vote more than the students who are voting left. :( cursed al' beats

[BOZG]

You're a fucking idiot. This is a site for people who actually want socialism not for capitalism with a smiley face. Confine yourself to OI with the rest of the right-wing.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

A "magical" shift from from rightwinged to leftwinged isn't going to happen. Once the party turns into rightwinged, you can bet on it, that it doesn't return to leftwinged.

In Holland per example we have the PvdA, once a real social-democratic party, after they followed the method that you described they turned into rightwinged. They are rightwinged for decades now and they even approved the war in Iraq. Just a few days ago they adopted a new party policy, which allows even more rightwinged politics. I don't see them magically shifting.

Second. By telling your voters one thing and doing the other, you're deceiving them. One could say, betrayal.

What we need is a new leftist party, which clearly objects capitalism and authoritism. A party which doesn't let power go before principles. A leftist progressive party, not another rightwinged.

[democratic-socialist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 02:07 PM
nice plan but the british public will always end up on the right, corprate britain, always has been always will be. Sorry but i dont think its gonna go, those damned old people keep voting to the right and they always vote more than the students who are voting left. :( cursed al' beats
Thats true... but the current old people wont be around forever? At least (hopefully) there old tory beliefs will die with them. That is meant in the most non offenceive way possible. That is why a party would have to be failry centre left first, and then shift whilst in power more to the left. That is exactly what Blair has done, only he's shifted to the right whislt in power! ([email protected]!) :ph34r:

[democratic-socialist]

Originally posted by Non-Sectarian Bastard!@May 3 2004, 02:14 PM
A "magical" shift from from rightwinged to leftwinged isn't going to happen. Once the party turns into rightwinged, you can bet on it, that it doesn't return to leftwinged.

In Holland per example we have the PvdA, once a real social-democratic party, after they followed the method that you described they turned into rightwinged. They are rightwinged for decades now and they even approved the war in Iraq. Just a few days ago they adopted a new party policy, which allows even more rightwinged politics. I don't see them magically shifting.

Second. By telling your voters one thing and doing the other, you're deceiving them. One could say, betrayal.

What we need is a new leftist party, which clearly objects capitalism and authoritism. A party which doesn't let power go before principles. A leftist progressive party, not another rightwinged.
Shifting is possible without decieving voters. It just takes alot of time. As I have already said, Blair has done it, but just to the right. It is possible to do it to the left as well, it would just have to slowly be eased into it, one policy at a time.

As for anti-capitalism, people have to start being truthful and realistic. A fully socialist or communist society is impossible to achieve. Human nature prevents people from being entirley equal. The only realistsic way forward is to stay in capitalism, but put limits on how big business's acn be and put down appropriate rules to contain them. Obviously, the politics of a country would be extremely leftwing, and i would have the countries main areas, such as teransport, water, gas, electricity, health, schools etc governemtn run. Extremely left winged capitalism is the only system that will cater for the needs of human beings.

And to BornOfZapatasGuns. You are the "fucking idiot" for thinking that I'm just another right wing imperialist, or whatever it is you think of me. I am just a REALISTIC socialist. something you can never be becasue you are just another "fucking idiot" living in a dream world where people are perfect. In the future, only post if you have something constructive to say. This is a political forum, not a playground.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

You have the right idea my friend. The only real way to get any kind of leftist system these days is a party that is a democtatic socialist party that appeals to the working classes.

Just so you know there are people who think like you.

[BOZG]

I want a united Europe, but a democratic socialist one, based iun a left wing capitalist system.

Capitalism can never be left wing you fucking knob. A REALISTIC socialist? Don't insult the people on this board by saying you're a socialist, you're nothing of the sort. Where have I said people are perfect? Don't start human nature arguments which you can't possibly back up because no one knows what human nature is. Now fuck off to OI or fuck off altogether.

[democratic-socialist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 02:31 PM

I want a united Europe, but a democratic socialist one, based iun a left wing capitalist system.

Capitalism can never be left wing you fucking knob. A REALISTIC socialist? Don't insult the people on this board by saying you're a socialist, you're nothing of the sort. Where have I said people are perfect? Don't start human nature arguments which you can't possibly back up because no one knows what human nature is. Now fuck off to OI or fuck off altogether.
What is your problem? I am just trying to express my views? I think you will find that my beliefs are socialist and it is another form of socialism. Try reading the book, "Political Ideology Today" by Ian Adams. That book can tell you about my sorts of beliefs. No, I am not going to start a human nature arguement, but it is my firm belief, as shown many many times in the past that human nature is up to the standard needed to create a fully socialist or communist system. Don't get me wrong, I wish people were not greedy or selfish, but they are. I wish that a fully socialist or communist system could be created, and that people could live and work cooperatively and in harmony, but it is an immpossibilty.

[Reuben]

Originally posted by democratic-[email protected] 3 2004, 01:55 PM
The UK's political scene is governed by only 3 parties:
- The Liberal democrats (Centre-wing)
- The Conservatives (Mid right-wing)
- New Labour (Centre right-wing)

It is time for a new left-wing political party in the UK that actually has a chance of being voted into power! Firstly, I think that revolution is not the way forward to a more left-wing world. The majority of people must vote for it, not revolt for it. We dont want another Russia situation, when in fact the majority of people DID NOT actually want a revolution! This new parties policies must be fairly right wing to start with, so that people will actually vote for them. Once in power the political shift to the left would happen. Eventually, I think we should reach a political position similar to that of the Spanish Socialist party. Once this is doen, hopefully with the springing up of socialist parties across Europe, the rest of Europe will hopefully follow. I want a united Europe, but a democratic socialist one, based iun a left wing capitalist system.

Thats just my thoughts though... Any suggestions on a new political party that can realistically get voted in any time soon? etc... :blink:
I think that revolution is not the way forward to a more left-wing world. The majority of people must vote for it, not revolt for it. We dont want another Russia situation, when in fact the majority of people DID NOT actually want a revolution!

We also do not want another situation ain to 1970s chile, 1950s guatemala or 1930s spain where left-wing parties were voted into power yet were deposed due to the bourgoir character of the state. Could yougive me some of where left wing government have come to power through the ballot box but has not been either pushed rightward.

With regard to your suggestion we do not need a 'new party'.

We need to start by asking what ue can socialists make from political parties under capitalism. Well similarly to what i have already we marxists do not regard parliamentary parties in themselves - in their current states - as potential vehicles of socialism. They are however vital organs which we can use to raise the consciousness and politicse the struggles of those capble of carrying through socialist revolution, ie the working class. The labour party like the european social democratic parties is still - however reactionary - the focal point for working class organisatio - the mass of unions are still affiliaed and it is still widely percieved - with however much distaste people have for its policies - as the parties which should represent the working class.

Thus Marxists must workwwithin the labour party, not because it is int itself progressive but because its consituency - those people tied into it - are those who are interested in and capable of carrying out a revolution. The alternative is for socialists to seperate themselves form their own party and preach to oneanother.

[Kez]

calm down calm down...

the issue is we need a revolutionary socialist party, correct?
yes

how do we go about for this party?
2 possible ways:

we simply start from scratch and build a party not based on anything, completely isolated from the masses

or

we build WITHIN a mass workers organisation, and agitate the workers movement in their traditional organisations, ie the trade unions and the social democratic parties.

I choose the latter, it is the easiest way, and the most non-secterian way of doing so, we should be working WITH the people, not outside!

democratic-socialist:

-Your rating of the political parties is incorrect, in that Labour is more leftwing than the Liberals.
-Everyone here is for a united europe, but only socialists such as ourselves want it run by the workers, not the bosses!
-We all want peaceful methods, but if the capitalists object to the masses democratic choice, then force is neccesary, and by the way, i advise you to read up more on the russian revolution.
-there is no such thing as left wing capitalism.

MiniOswald:
I think you analysis of how the public votes is very artificial, and based only on the last few years. If they were to vote right wing, why were the tories booted out?

Non-Sectarian Bastard!:
What is your view on how Callaghan (a right wing labour leader) was leader of the Labour Party and had a right wing leadership, but then was kicked out for a very left wing candidate in the form of Micheal Foot? Your argument doesnt really hold water comrade. It was the workers in the Labour Party who got rid of the right wing. It is only due to inactivity (such as in the late 80's and early 90's which allowed Blair into power) that allows right wing tendencies to rise up.
This is what happened in Spain, and it was only due to workers activity increasing which allowed a more left wing "socialist" party

We must use parliament as a platform for revolution, and not be attracted to parliamentary cretinism.

[democratic-socialist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 02:44 PM
Thus Marxists must workwwithin the labour party, not because it is int itself progressive but because its consituency - those people tied into it - are those who are interested in and capable of carrying out a revolution. The alternative is for socialists to seperate themselves form their own party and preach to oneanother.
I agree with some of what you say here. Perhaps a completely new party isnt the way to go. What we need are more left-wing minded people within the labour party who can have influecne on its workings and policeis. I still think that a shift in policy is the way forward, not revolution. People have to vote for it, so that it will not only be accepted by the rest of the country, but by the rest of the world. how can other democratic countries go against a party that has been democratcially voted in itself? it is a sure and scure way for it to work. And as for those other parties being pushed rightwards. It is as simple as this. If at the end of the day a left wing party such as the one's we have disscused thus far cannot exsist in british society, we must move right once again, and then push left once a new generation has been born. The only reason britain is so right wing now is becasue old people still vote and grip onto old tory ideas. When a new generation comes, those ideas will (hopefully) be more right wing, but people have to act now to get out the leftist message.

[Revolt!]

This is a site for people who actually want socialism not for capitalism with a smiley face

Thought it was a 'leftist community'.


The UK's political scene is governed by only 3 parties:
- The Liberal democrats (Centre-wing)
- The Conservatives (Mid right-wing)
- New Labour (Centre right-wing)

Not everyone is like Blair or Blunkett. Look at how many Labour M.P.'s rebelled against the war in iraq and top up fees.

[The Role Of Ideology]

I think that revolution is not the way forward to a more left-wing world. The majority of people must vote for it, not revolt for it. We dont want another Russia situation, when in fact the majority of people DID NOT actually want a revolution!


That is an ignorant statement.


As for anti-capitalism, people have to start being truthful and realistic. A fully socialist or communist society is impossible to achieve. Human nature prevents people from being entirley equal.

This statement prooves that you do not understand socialism or communism at all.


We also do not want another situation ain to 1970s chile, 1950s guatemala or 1930s spain where left-wing parties were voted into power yet were deposed due to the bourgoir character of the state. Could yougive me some of where left wing government have come to power through the ballot box but has not been either pushed rightward.


Add to that list the more recent Venezuela


Originally posted by "Reuben"
Thus Marxists must workwwithin the labour party, not because it is int itself progressive but because its consituency - those people tied into it - are those who are interested in and capable of carrying out a revolution. The alternative is for socialists to seperate themselves form their own party and preach to oneanother.

Are you by any chance in the CPB?


we build WITHIN a mass workers organisation, and agitate the workers movement in their traditional organisations, ie the trade unions and the social democratic parties.


This was tried I believe en masse by British Trotskyists in the 80s, needless to say they were all expelled and gave a reason for the Labour party to expell hundreds maybe thousands of good comrades and push the Labour party even further right.


We all want peaceful methods, but if the capitalists object to the masses democratic choice, then force is neccesary

Capitalists by nature are reactionary and will take any necessary step to crush working class power. Revolution coupled with parliamentary struggle is the only way to smash the Borgeois state machine and replace it with a proletarian socialist model.


People have to vote for it, so that it will not only be accepted by the rest of the country, but by the rest of the world. how can other democratic countries go against a party that has been democratcially voted in itself?

Greed and the reactionary and vicious nature of capitalism and capitalists nations in general.

Just look at what happened in Chile and what may soon happen in Venezuela when Colombia (US puppet) invades.


Look at how many Labour M.P.'s rebelled against the war in iraq and top up fees.


Not enough!

Matt

[redstar2000]

The labour party like the european social democratic parties is still - however reactionary - the focal point for working class organisation - the mass of unions are still affiliated and it is still widely perceived - with however much distaste people have for its policies - as the parties which should represent the working class.

Thus Marxists must work within the labour party, not because it is in itself progressive but because its constituency - those people tied into it - are those who are interested in and capable of carrying out a revolution.

Trotskyist crapola!

Leninist Sects and Parliamentary Cretinism May 10, 2003 (http://redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1082737940&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&)

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[The Role Of Ideology]

How is it Trotskyist crapola? Trotskyists are incredibly secular.

[democratic-socialist]

Originally posted by The Role Of Ideology+May 3 2004, 05:30 PM--> (The Role Of Ideology @ May 3 2004, 05:30 PM)
I think that revolution is not the way forward to a more left-wing world. The majority of people must vote for it, not revolt for it. We dont want another Russia situation, when in fact the majority of people DID NOT actually want a revolution!


That is an ignorant statement.


As for anti-capitalism, people have to start being truthful and realistic. A fully socialist or communist society is impossible to achieve. Human nature prevents people from being entirley equal.

This statement prooves that you do not understand socialism or communism at all.


We also do not want another situation ain to 1970s chile, 1950s guatemala or 1930s spain where left-wing parties were voted into power yet were deposed due to the bourgoir character of the state. Could yougive me some of where left wing government have come to power through the ballot box but has not been either pushed rightward.


Add to that list the more recent Venezuela


"Reuben"
Thus Marxists must workwwithin the labour party, not because it is int itself progressive but because its consituency - those people tied into it - are those who are interested in and capable of carrying out a revolution. The alternative is for socialists to seperate themselves form their own party and preach to oneanother.

Are you by any chance in the CPB?


we build WITHIN a mass workers organisation, and agitate the workers movement in their traditional organisations, ie the trade unions and the social democratic parties.


This was tried I believe en masse by British Trotskyists in the 80s, needless to say they were all expelled and gave a reason for the Labour party to expell hundreds maybe thousands of good comrades and push the Labour party even further right.


We all want peaceful methods, but if the capitalists object to the masses democratic choice, then force is neccesary

Capitalists by nature are reactionary and will take any necessary step to crush working class power. Revolution coupled with parliamentary struggle is the only way to smash the Borgeois state machine and replace it with a proletarian socialist model.


People have to vote for it, so that it will not only be accepted by the rest of the country, but by the rest of the world. how can other democratic countries go against a party that has been democratcially voted in itself?

Greed and the reactionary and vicious nature of capitalism and capitalists nations in general.

Just look at what happened in Chile and what may soon happen in Venezuela when Colombia (US puppet) invades.


Look at how many Labour M.P.'s rebelled against the war in iraq and top up fees.


Not enough!

Matt [/b]
lol. so what is it that you believe in then? to have a fully communist or socialist state? You are short sighted and blind. It is impossible to have a fully communist or socialist state as i have said to people SO MANY times before. Human nature prevents it. The only places where that sort of society works is in small communes. Go and live in one, or I suggest you come and live in the real world. :redstar2000:

[The Role Of Ideology]

It is impossible to have a fully communist or socialist state as i have said to people SO MANY times before. Human nature prevents it.

How would human nature prevent communism?

[redstar2000]

How is it Trotskyist crapola? Trotskyists are incredibly secular.

:lol: I think you meant to say sectarian...and they certainly are that!

But for Trotskyist parties, the general rule runs something like this...

Who We Hate (in order of intensity)

1. Other Trotskyist parties.

2. Other Leninist (but non-Trotskyist) parties.

3. Other Marxists & all anarchists.

4. "Left" bourgeois parties (like the British "Labour" Party).

It's not "iron-clad"...but it's a pretty good guide, I think, to what positions a Trotskyist formation is most likely to take.


It is impossible to have a fully communist or socialist state as I have said to people SO MANY times before. Human nature prevents it.

Old "cynic" that I am, I've often suspected that when people say things like this, it's really their own "human nature" that they're describing.

They "don't want" any kind of society where they can't be "rich" and/or "powerful".

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[The Role Of Ideology]

I think you meant to say sectarian...and they certainly are that!


yeah, oopsy :blink:. I have religion on the brain!

[democratic-socialist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 06:31 PM

It is impossible to have a fully communist or socialist state as I have said to people SO MANY times before. Human nature prevents it.

Old "cynic" that I am, I've often suspected that when people say things like this, it's really their own "human nature" that they're describing.

They "don't want" any kind of society where they can't be "rich" and/or "powerful".

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas
For a start, I am neither rich nor powerful. I&#39;m a 17 year old student, who has spent the past the last 4 years fundraising to go and help children to learn in mexico and namibia. And secondly, human nature effects us all. I am as greedy and selfish as nearly anyone else. In the future, don&#39;t try and attack me personally. Instead, try to answer my question. <_<

[Kez]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 06:05 PM

The labour party like the european social democratic parties is still - however reactionary - the focal point for working class organisation - the mass of unions are still affiliated and it is still widely perceived - with however much distaste people have for its policies - as the parties which should represent the working class.

Thus Marxists must work within the labour party, not because it is in itself progressive but because its constituency - those people tied into it - are those who are interested in and capable of carrying out a revolution.

Trotskyist crapola&#33;

Leninist Sects and Parliamentary Cretinism May 10, 2003 (http://redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net/theory.php?subaction=showfull&id=1082737940&archive=&cnshow=headlines&start_from=&ucat=&)

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas
fucking ingenius reply....

listen old man, ive grudgingly brought myself to read your shite, now answer my points:

"First of all, the BLP now is hardly what it was 60 years ago...it is now a capitalist party, pure and simple&#33;"
-I would like your detailed analysis of the British Labour Party please, and how it is a capitalist party, if you cannot come up with this, it simply undermines you, and shows you to be the windbag you are.

"Secondly, at some point we must learn the futility of trying to "use" the capitalist electoral system as a "means" of "struggle." That is like trying to raise your rent money in a casino...except that in a casino, you sometimes win. No genuine socialist/communist party is ever going to win a majority in a capitalist election...it will simply not be permitted."
-Well, you can get a majority, but the reactionary nature of the state would crush the majority with extra-parliamentary activity.
-In anycase, no trotskyist calls for fighting only in parliament, this is parliamentary cretinism, as i stated in my first post. The reason you missed my post which stated it is parliamentary cretinism, is due to your hurry to spam the thread with another bullshit section of your website. Next time, read the thread before you spam.

"Working within existing trade unions is very complicated and often very frustrating work...but it is one of the crucial things that communists must do to succeed. But, if I were to just take a wild stab, my bet would be on the future of communism in new unions that organize workers that the old unions have ignored. I know that is an enormously daunting challenge...but if it worked as a strategy, the "payoff" would be like a casino jackpot. A large and growing sector of the working class imbued with communist ideas would radically change the "balance of power" and possibly even "tip the balance" our way."
-This is the attitude of an ultra-leftist, and only an ultra leftist would suggest such a thing. 3 or 4 years back, there was the electricians union in Britain, and it was extremely right wing and conservative. There were ultra-lefts such as yourself who called for militants to leave this uunion, and form a new one. We said that this is our union, this is where the workers are, we shall fight. We fought, we won, it is now one of the more left wing unions in Britain. What did the ultra-lefts achieve? Sweet Fuck All.

"Forgive me if my estimate (guess) is wrong...but to "purge" Tony Blair from the BLP would probably mean purging 75% of the membership as well...hardly realistic."
- Is there ANY factual basis for that 75% figure???
- Do you have ANY knowledge of the history and the current make up of the grass roots Labour support? i suggest you invest in a book on the hisory and current state of the Labour party old man.

"Why shouldn&#39;t we simply tell the working class, over and over and over again if necessary, that the Labour Party is a capitalist party and will never put power in the hands of the working class?

That may be an "unpopular" message for a long time...so be it. Our role is not to be "popular"; our role is to tell the truth to our class."
- well first you must prove it is a capitalist party, it would indeed be a funny site, for you to go into a Labour Party branch meeting, with working class making up around 70% of it, then tell them the Labour Party is a capitalist party, and that their voting rights which gives workers more power than the capitalists in the party is actually....well, they must have read them wrong...or something, you make it up as you go along hey?

The rest of your page is so full of innacuracies, that its not worth ones times to correct them.

I would like to help you correct yourself in following areas
a) see what our aims are
b) see what our methods are
c) see our history

[BOZG]

Secterian...... break out the mirrors people. Rejecting to work among the workers&#39; organisations is the epitomy of secterianism. But no point trying to explain that to the dogmatic.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 02:13 PM
You&#39;re a fucking idiot. This is a site for people who actually want socialism not for capitalism with a smiley face. Confine yourself to OI with the rest of the right-wing.
What a nice way to great a new member, instead of actually explaining why you disagree with their ideals, and perhaps making this thread a profitable exercise, you acted like a complete ass, well done. Maybe you should be restricted to trash you jerk.

[Kez]

keep your opinion to yourself, you could have PM&#39;d him.

let us continue with this interest threada, without the hero defending the oppressed... :rolleyes:

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 06:56 PM
keep your opinion to yourself, you could have PM&#39;d him.

let us continue with this interest threada, without the hero defending the oppressed... :rolleyes:
Why the fuck should I keep my opinion to my self?

BOZG, was being being really harsh for no apparent reason.

[BOZG]

What a nice way to great a new member, instead of actually explaining why you disagree with their ideals, and perhaps making this thread a profitable exercise, you acted like a complete ass, well done. Maybe you should be restricted to trash you jerk.


Thanks for your input, now shut the fuck up. I&#39;ve posted my position on bourgeois social-democrats and the like, this **** is even worse though, numerous times before. Go and start another restriction thread if you want.

[democratic-socialist]

What is beginning to annoy me is the belief (primarily from the unenlightened few) that I am a right-wing capitalist pig. all of those things are wrong. For the record, I am a democratic socialist. I belive in a basic democratic capitalist system, but an extremely left wing one, using a huge amount of socialist ideas. Basically, as left wing as one can be within a capitalist system. The reason I belive that capitalism is the way forward is quite simply becasue i dont belive a fully socialist system would work. Human nature, which is NOT created by capitalism (as many of you believe is) prevents it. Happy all you people out to get me? <_<

[BOZG]

You believe in a capitalist system, you are not left wing.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 06:59 PM

What a nice way to great a new member, instead of actually explaining why you disagree with their ideals, and perhaps making this thread a profitable exercise, you acted like a complete ass, well done. Maybe you should be restricted to trash you jerk.


Thanks for your input, now shut the fuck up. I&#39;ve posted my position on bourgeois social-democrats and the like, this **** is even worse though, numerous times before. Go and start another restriction thread if you want.
Thanks for your input, now shut the fuck up.

Ohh so now your going to be all matcho, as if you weren&#39;t being enough of an arse in the first place, way to go.

I&#39;ve posted my position on bourgeois social-democrats and the like

Then why not make a link and show this person? Or is that completely beyond you?

this **** is even worse though,

a sexist as well.

Go and start another restriction thread if you want.

Ohh please, get over your self, your not nearly important enough to me to warrent that kind of responce.

[Kez]

can we have a moderator to delete all the last 4 posts which are none thread related?

or is it too much to ask for as we have unelected bullshit moderators in the first place...

[BOZG]

Ohh so now your going to be all matcho, as if you weren&#39;t being enough of an arse in the first place, way to go.

I don&#39;t particularly care whether I come across as an ass to most people on this board, or to most people in general. I&#39;ll be an ass to the who the fuck I like.



Then why not make a link and show this person? Or is that completely beyond you?

Because I don&#39;t remember every thread I&#39;ve ever posted in.#



a sexist as well.

Can anyone else see the flashing blue lights and hear the sirens? OH NO, it&#39;s the PC police. I thought we already decided that I was a sexist pig who wants to destroy women and feminism.



Ohh please, get over your self, your not nearly important enough to me to warrent that kind of responce.

Maybe you forgot the part where you suggested that maybe I should be restricted. Stupid fuck.

[Kez]

Originally posted by democratic&#045;[email protected] 3 2004, 07:03 PM
What is beginning to annoy me is the belief (primarily from the unenlightened few) that I am a right-wing capitalist pig. all of those things are wrong. For the record, I am a democratic socialist. I belive in a basic democratic capitalist system, but an extremely left wing one, using a huge amount of socialist ideas. Basically, as left wing as one can be within a capitalist system. The reason I belive that capitalism is the way forward is quite simply becasue i dont belive a fully socialist system would work. Human nature, which is NOT created by capitalism (as many of you believe is) prevents it. Happy all you people out to get me? <_<
this makes you a liberal at best.

if you dont believe socialism can work, then the methodology of attaining your twisted liberal ideology does now make u a socialist.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 07:10 PM

Ohh so now your going to be all matcho, as if you weren&#39;t being enough of an arse in the first place, way to go.

I don&#39;t particularly care whether I come across as an ass to most people on this board, or to most people in general. I&#39;ll be an ass to the who the fuck I like.



Then why not make a link and show this person? Or is that completely beyond you?

Because I don&#39;t remember every thread I&#39;ve ever posted in.#



a sexist as well.

Can anyone else see the flashing blue lights and hear the sirens? OH NO, it&#39;s the PC police. I thought we already decided that I was a sexist pig who wants to destroy women and feminism.



Ohh please, get over your self, your not nearly important enough to me to warrent that kind of responce.

Maybe you forgot the part where you suggested that maybe I should be restricted. Stupid fuck.
I&#39;ll be an ass to the who the fuck I like.


great... :rolleyes:

Because I don&#39;t remember every thread I&#39;ve ever posted in.#

Then why not use the supprisingly uncomplex search tool that che-lives offers which takes about a minute to work?

OH NO, it&#39;s the PC police.

whatever ass-hole. :rolleyes:

I thought we already decided that I was a sexist pig who wants to destroy women and feminism.

As it happens i voted in your favour.

Maybe you forgot the part where you suggested that maybe I should be restricted.

Umm actually I voted in your favour, to keep you from being restricted you fool, at least in the most recent thread about you. I dont recall ever having another such thread about you. And you call me a stupid fuck...

[redstar2000]

And secondly, human nature affects us all. I am as greedy and selfish as nearly anyone else.

So if you do get the chance to grab some "power and wealth", you&#39;ll do it&#33;

Why are you bothering to post on a left message board? Do you imagine that we are at all interested in helping your political career?


For the record, I am a democratic socialist. I believe in a basic democratic capitalist system, but an extremely left wing one, using a huge amount of socialist ideas.

Move to Sweden; they have "capitalism with a human face" which is just what you want.

But hurry&#33; It probably won&#39;t last too much longer.

Capitalists are "not very human" and it&#39;s a real strain on them to keep up the pretense.


I would like your detailed analysis of the British Labour Party please, and how it is a capitalist party, if you cannot come up with this, it simply undermines you, and shows you to be the windbag you are.

I would think Blair&#39;s record in office would furnish sufficient detail; don&#39;t you pay attention to that stuff "over there"?


This is the attitude of an ultra-leftist, and only an ultra leftist would suggest such a thing. 3 or 4 years back, there was the electricians union in Britain, and it was extremely right wing and conservative. There were ultra-lefts such as yourself who called for militants to leave this union, and form a new one. We said that this is our union, this is where the workers are, we shall fight. We fought, we won, it is now one of the more left wing unions in Britain. What did the ultra-lefts achieve? Sweet Fuck All.

Assuming your account is accurate, you have good reason to be proud of your efforts.

But please recall that I did not say that revolutionaries should "not" work within existing unions; I simply guessed that the future of the class struggle will be with altogether new unions.

My guess could be wrong.


Do you have ANY knowledge of the history and the current make up of the grass roots Labour support?

You imply that there are enormous numbers of "Labour" supporters who despise Blair; if that&#39;s truly the case, then why hasn&#39;t he been removed from office?

Either the "grass roots" has no power to depose Blair or the numbers that you allude to don&#39;t exist.


first you must prove it is a capitalist party. It would indeed be a funny sight, for you to go into a Labour Party branch meeting, with working class making up around 70% of it, then tell them the Labour Party is a capitalist party, and that their voting rights which gives workers more power than the capitalists in the party is actually....

Worthless is, I believe, the word you were looking for here.

I repeat: Blair&#39;s record shows which class runs the "Labour" Party...regardless of the "voting rights" that supposedly say otherwise.


...you make it up as you go along, hey?

Yes, that&#39;s often the case...but not this time. We went through this crapola just about a year ago...and I see you&#39;ve learned nothing in that period.

And forgotten nothing.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[BOZG]

Then why not use the supprisingly uncomplex search tool that che-lives offers which takes about a minute to work?


Actually the new search engine works much faster but I still don&#39;t remember what threads I made remarks about social democrats in, there have been numerous. I&#39;ve mentioned the words "social democrats" a thousand times on this board, I&#39;m not going to waste my time going through every thread I&#39;ve posted in.



Umm actually I voted in your favour, to keep you from being restricted you fool, at least in the most recent thread about you. I dont recall ever having another such thread about you. And you call me a stupid fuck...

Read the first post you made in this thread....you don&#39;t even need that suprisingly uncomplex search tool that takes about a minute.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 07:41 PM

Then why not use the supprisingly uncomplex search tool that che-lives offers which takes about a minute to work?


Actually the new search engine works much faster but I still don&#39;t remember what threads I made remarks about social democrats in, there have been numerous. I&#39;ve mentioned the words "social democrats" a thousand times on this board, I&#39;m not going to waste my time going through every thread I&#39;ve posted in.



Umm actually I voted in your favour, to keep you from being restricted you fool, at least in the most recent thread about you. I dont recall ever having another such thread about you. And you call me a stupid fuck...

Read the first post you made in this thread....you don&#39;t even need that suprisingly uncomplex search tool that takes about a minute.
Read the first post you made in this thread....

What a nice way to great a new member, instead of actually explaining why you disagree with their ideals, and perhaps making this thread a profitable exercise, you acted like a complete ass, well done. Maybe you should be restricted to trash you jerk.

Where did I say I wanted you restricted to OI? Ohh look nowhere. I did say that maybe you hould be restricted to trash. Look up "maybe" in the dictionary then look up "sarcasm".

Fool

[Kez]

haha, look what i just found

http://www.marxist.com/canada/canada_gs_betrayed.html

redstar would make a new uunion (with 3 members)

a real marxist would fight, get rid of the traitors and make sure the union fights for the workers.

[democratic-socialist]

All of you, stop fighting&#33; This is neither constructive nor informative.


So if you do get the chance to grab some "power and wealth", you&#39;ll do it&#33;

Why are you bothering to post on a left message board? Do you imagine that we are at all interested in helping your political career?

What on earth are you talking about? I wouldn&#39;t "grab some power and welath" if i had the chance. I never said that I would, you are just twisting my words. I am certainly not looking to boost a political career, im only 17&#33; And the reason I post on a leftist message board is becasue I AM A LEFTIST, something which you don&#39;t seem to have grasped&#33;

C&#39;mon now, lets stop... :unsure:

[Kez]

as for your reply, RedStar,

the leadership does not make the party, that is the single most shite analysis of the Labour Party i have ever heard.

Also, if i were you, i would keep my guesses to myself, in the struggle for marxism, we cant fanny about with possible guess, base ur statements on factsand then come out with them.

Why isnt there a mass movement against Blair?
well, for the most of the last 15 years weve seen a boom in capitalism, and only the last few years have shown a decline. This has been reflected in the workers movement, where there has been a general ebb in all activity. But, this has now changed, and the workers are beocming more militant, therefore the unions became more militant, next the labour party will become more militant, at which point, the workers will return en masse to the LP, and those who fight outside the LP will be truly fucked, unless they move into the LP (as the SP have correctly said they would do)

[redstar2000]

Redstar would make a new union (with 3 members)

How this relates to the link that you posted, Kez, is a "dialectical leap" of world-class proportions.


A real marxist would fight, get rid of the traitors and make sure the union fights for the workers.

I&#39;m not sure that it&#39;s up to either of us to offer specific advice to the workers in Vancouver...since neither of us knows "sweet fuck all" about the real specifics of the struggle there.

Had they asked me (did they ask you?), I would suggest that they go ahead with their general strike with or without the "approval" of their "leadership".


And the reason I post on a leftist message board is because I AM A LEFTIST, something which you don&#39;t seem to have grasped&#33;

You don&#39;t sound like one to me. :huh:

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[democratic-socialist]

what do i sound like then?

[bunk]

leftist is just left of centre, i think by most people&#39;s standards most people on this board would be called &#39;extreme leftists&#39;.

[Kez]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 08:24 PM
I&#39;m not sure that it&#39;s up to either of us to offer specific advice to the workers in Vancouver...since neither of us knows "sweet fuck all" about the real specifics of the struggle there.

Had they asked me (did they ask you?), I would suggest that they go ahead with their general strike with or without the "approval" of their "leadership".

i think it is our duty to give advice on however far we can. My point was the example shown by the Vancouver workers is the best model to follow, and that it should and will be the case in Britain with the Labour Party

as for your advice, id agree, but add onto that, that they shud elect delegates to do what the workers wish as their leadership, in order to organise properly. These officials would of course be subject to workers salary and immediate recall.

[redstar2000]

My point was the example shown by the Vancouver workers is the best model to follow, and that it should and will be the case in Britain with the Labour Party.

I don&#39;t see the connection. The workers in Vancouver are on strike...what has that to do with bourgeois political parties and bourgeois politics?

I think you keep "blurring" the issue...it&#39;s not about unions and class struggle.

The question is

Is the "Labour" party a capitalist party or not? And if it is, is there anything to be gained by Marxists "working" within it?

You assert that "Labour" members are "70% working class" and therefore you should be part of it and try to "take it back" from the capitalist class.

And I&#39;m asserting that you&#39;re wasting your time. You may recruit a few members to your group...but you will have no measurable effect on the social role of the "Labour" Party...whatever its past, it is now and will remain a capitalist party.

Moreover, your perspective still reflects ancient illusions about bourgeois politics in general...that they actually "mean something".

They don&#39;t.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.fightcapitalism.net)
A site about communist ideas

[Kez]

Look you fuckwit,

ive asked you niceely to look at our aims and research what we stand for, then you can spew your shite.

If you did so, you would know our aim is not to takeover the Labour Party, i dont give a flying fuck about the LP, i just want to get to the workers, once with the workers we can then split, or takeover the party, or a 101 different other tactics...get the fuck out of your narrowminded arrogant state of mind...

Its boring having to reply to you.

The connection with the Vancouver workers was that they are not being ultra-left windbags like yourself and opening new uunions like only an idiot secterian such as yourself would do so, they are fighting for what is there, and this must be replicated in britain in the unions and in the labour party.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by democratic&#045;[email protected] 3 2004, 03:55 PM
The UK&#39;s political scene is governed by only 3 parties:
- The Liberal democrats (Centre-wing)
- The Conservatives (Mid right-wing)
- New Labour (Centre right-wing)
You missed the Scottish Socialist Party, the Scottish Nationalist Party, Plyd Cymru, the Ulster Unionist Party and the Social Democractic Labour Party. All of which have seats in parliment and considerable power in their regions.


It is time for a new left-wing political party in the UK that actually has a chance of being voted into power&#33;

Your definition of left wing is dubious to say the least. When you say political power you have to look at who the power belongs to. Society is not controlled by fair people, who will stand aside when the people elect a government which is considered progressive.

Capitalism as a system exists for one purpose, the accumulation of profit. The political systems created there after are designed to maintain that system. Change is not about bringing a goverment into power which will give you a better wage, its about the end of working class exploitation. A political party elected into a political system designed to protect the thing which creates the exploitation will not be effective in ending it.


Firstly, I think that revolution is not the way forward to a more left-wing world.

That depends on the left wing world you want to create. Most of the members of this board want to create a communist society. Communism meaning the end of exploitation, or wage slavery and the creation of a statless and thus classless society based on the principle "from each according to ability, to each according to need."

Unfortunatly the ruling class, the owners and controllers of the means of production and the political system are not going to allow that kind of change to happen without a fight. A revolution is not a preemptive act of violence, it is an act of self defence. The process of change to the point of revoluton will be vast and that change will reach a point where the workers demand actual power, at which point the ruling class will say no, send in the army and the police at which point we make a decision. Fight back and win, or go home and loose.

Revolution isnt desriable, it is just inevitable. A fact we have to realize if we want to change society.


We dont want another Russia situation, when in fact the majority of people DID NOT actually want a revolution&#33;

We certainly dont want another Russia, that is why we have to reject the theory of leninism. However, the Russian revolution was generally non violent and very few people died in the process. It was the attack from counter revolutionary forces and the subsequent defence which caused deaths.

You are right, people didnt want a revolution. But they wanted change, and they couldnt get it without defending themselves. So they did, and they changed the political structure fundamentally.


This new parties policies must be fairly right wing to start with, so that people will actually vote for them.

I can understand why you said this. We very often look for desperate solutions when our situations become desperate. We all want change, but we have to decide what change we want. Do we want to change the system the easiest way and in the best way we think we can change it, just because it may happen in our life time. Or do we want to fight for real change which will create a free and equal society. A society we all want.

Doing what is right is what is important, and using a bourgeois political party to gain power in a capialist system on a right wing platform is not doing what is right.


Once in power the political shift to the left would happen.

How? You will have lied to your electorate. They didnt elect a left wing government. They elected a right wing one. How could you make such a fundamental shift without breaking up your support base. At the next election, after all the demonstrations and possibly even strikes, you will loose, maybe to an even more right wing political party. Or you attempt to create a dictatorship, either way, what liberation is this.


I want a united Europe, but a democratic socialist one, based iun a left wing capitalist system.

Is this some election campaign. I dont care what you want. What is important is creating a free society. Freedom will come only when capitalism is gone, and you can not get rid of it by reforming it. The capitalists are not going to let you reform something which is there to make them rich. Why would they? And it shouldnt be about what you want. It is about what is right.

[socialdemocratuk]

I was just expressing my opinions. I want a political party such as labour was in the 1950&#39;s and 60&#39;s. And wen i talked about the UK, i meant england. I apologise for any confusion. As for communism, i personally do not belive it can work. it is a great idea and works in theory, but it depends on humans being perfect and is based on us from not suffering human nature.

[Guest1]

I&#39;m in Canada, so far it seems likely that the labour movement&#39;s brief rise in Vancouver is over for now. The unions have taken Canadian labour to the brink of general strikes three times in three different provinces in the past 6 months.

Each time, they backed down with angry supporters spitting in shame at the betrayal.

The working class here is getting fed up.

The NDP, for what it&#39;s worth, is registering the highest support since the 80&#39;s when they reached their record.

While I don&#39;t believe the political process is meaningful, I do believe it is a good measure of the political climate. Many radicals I know register "protest votes" with the New Democratic Party simply as a way of being counted in a very public way. This year, a month before an expected election, they are the only party that is gaining ground above and beyond the share they had a few months ago. Every other party is trying to gain back support it has lost.

As the pressure mounts, we are hearing more and more independant calls for a general strike. In BC, normal working people are coming out and calling the union "filthy traitors" on national television.

Explosion is imminent. There is likely to be a general strike in the near future in this country, and the unions and the government are scrambling to do whatever they can to keep it under control.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 10:44 AM
As for communism, i personally do not belive it can work. it is a great idea and works in theory, but it depends on humans being perfect and is based on us from not suffering human nature.
What is human nature?

EDIT: It would be good if you could go through my comments point by point and attempted to refute them.