The European Union

[James]

What does everyone think?

- Union

- Expansion

- Constitution

- Current system and state of affairs

[Funky Monk]

Should you have added:

- Johnny Foreigner ?

[James]

lol

[Kez]

The EU is the Union of the ruling classes the European states.

Its purpose is simply to push forward a more free-market approach, and in doing so destroying any Social Democratic reforms that have been put in place over the last 50 years. (a point for the reformists one could say)

the EU itself is a very undemocratic institution, with all the main posts being "appointed" rather than elected, eg president, ECB board etc etc

What are the goals of the EU?
for privatisation - see legislation against nationalised companies
for imperialism - see new plans for greater army extensions into africa and middle east (particularly Germany which is increasing its arms budget)

For a Socialist European Federation
No to bosses collusion

[Funky Monk]

What do you say to things like the Human Rights Act?

[Kez]

crumbs from the capitalists' table.

Why has the EU not proposed a EU wide minimum wage? because this would stop the capitalists extra exploitation of cheap eastern european labour. And this is what the EU is really about.

[monkeydust]

the EU itself is a very undemocratic institution, with all the main posts being "appointed" rather than elected, eg president, ECB board etc etc

That's an important point.

I'm not entirely against greater European unity, though before such a thing can proceed the EU seriously needs to re-think it's organisation.

Currently the Council of Ministers, the European Commission, and the European Council have by far the greatest power. The Council of Ministers is only democratic in the sense that it consists primarily of elected ministers of the individual countries. The European Commission is made up largely of former parliamentary ministers, appointed by goernments as a 'retierement present' (the salary is enormous).

In contrast the proportionally elected EU Parliament has comparatively little power. It's powers are suggestive rather than compulsive in so far as there's no procedures through which it can ensure its interest are upheld.

In short, the EU is a very undemocratic body at present. The upper echelons of the executive have almost no accountability.


Why has the EU not proposed a EU wide minimum wage? because this would stop the capitalists extra exploitation of cheap eastern european labour. And this is what the EU is really about

That's hardly fair Kez.

The EU could not realistically propose a European wide miniumum wage, the Eurosceptics would go mad with the usual 'rule from Brussels' tripe. Furthermore, the poorer Eastern countries you speak of only joined the EU yesterday.

Do you really expect a wage scheme to help these poorer countrie to be initiated and passed in one day?!?

[Kurai Tsuki]

It seems like a united economic front in europe would mean decreased money being injected into the United States.

[James]

I think a EU minimum wage will be very hard to achieve, and very hard to maintain - especially following enlargement.
Uniformed wages are unrealistic in many rural areas for example.
Also "Left"'s points.


I personally think its a bad idea (the constitution). Treaties, and political co-operation i'm fine with. But not "a country called Europe". With so many representatives, so few will get what they actually want: full unification would not allow the current "opt out" option.
It is also so very very undemocratic. See Left's post. Another example: the manner in which the British MEP's are selected (the party list).

[Kez]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2004, 10:46 PM
Do you really expect a wage scheme to help these poorer countrie to be initiated and passed in one day?!?
nope.

this is why im against the EU, because it doesnt operate in the interests of the working class.

[James]

You used to be in favour of the EU! you said it brought the people closer together or something.

[Kez]

nah, i said its creation may create a larger concentration of workers uunder one banner (ie EU wide unions) which would possibly make them more effective

[Funky Monk]

The words of Walesa (http://www.eubusiness.com/afp/040503180148.88bngrht)


Looks like the EU is seen not just as hugely capitalist but also ironically as communist. Isn't it amazing that a single act/organisation can be viewed as at either end of the political spectrum.

[Saint-Just]

I would probably be marginally in favour since if Britain was more intergated within Europe then, at least for a short time, we may become more in tune with their culture and its slightly less infection from American culture.

From a socialist perspective I don't think it makes much difference.

[crazy comie]

I think it will benifit europe the ading of new members

[Comrade Zeke]

The best organization I have ever seen trying to inprove the Social well being of Eroupeans, The Whole Union is capitalist but it is the best government I have seen in a while the Eroupean Union is getting stronger and surly it will turn more Socalist I mean look at all the main nations in the EU most of them have Socail polocies I am moving to Eroupe when I am 18 to Ireland or England. If it to expensive I am going North to Canada where the econmy anit messed up. :D

Zeke

[crazy comie]

European nion is helping europe unite

[Kez]

come off it.

I dont think just because the EU competes against the US, and may balance one capitaliost power with another is a valid reason to support the EU.

Just because they dont come from texas doesnt make them any less corrupt than their ruling class counterparts on the otherside of the atlantic.

the EU has laws concerning budget defecit, this means that Germany cannot pay our and maintain its welfare state, leaving old pensioners (who need it most) out in the cold, in terms of financial aid. And we support this organisation?

the EU brings us together? Well, tell that to the worker in London who is being swapped for an eastern european worker from Poland. The EU gives the polish worker less rights concerning wage, security etc, this merely divides the european working class, not brings it together. And we support this organisation?

Im all for a European Union, but only a socialist one, run by the workers, for the workers, and having broken up the capitalist monopoly of power!

[cubist]

i find my self in agreement with KEZ on this,

one thing i hate was the BSE cover up scam ion france that was just ignored by the EU incomparison to of course the lucky brits who got arse raped

[crazy comie]

I don't think british workers will be replaced by polish ones or any other eu country.

[Kez]

of course they will, because capitalists only care for one thing, money.

Labour is much cheaper in the east, and they can compete on an equal basis in terms of skills etc.

It is important for the EU working class to unite, and fight for equal pay for equal work for ALL workers regardless of gender or nationality. But, as the EU state is a capitalist state, it will not do this, unless there is great pressure from below, which will force the capitalists to concede reforms, as has always been the case (even under Disraeli's time).

[crazy comie]

No becuse alot of skilled britsh workers are goining to eastern europe and a lot of unskilled eastern europeans are comming to england.

[DaCuBaN]

No becuse alot of skilled britsh workers are goining to eastern europe and a lot of unskilled eastern europeans are comming to england

Agreed lots of skilled workers are leaving to go do necessary work in the 'developing' regions of new europe. I'm not too sure about how many uneducated types are getting through though... I think the governments of the founders are still picking and choosing the doctors, engineers etc

[Kez]

Originally posted by crazy [email protected] 7 2004, 06:49 PM
No becuse alot of skilled britsh workers are goining to eastern europe and a lot of unskilled eastern europeans are comming to england.
no but the point is Western European Capital will go into the eastern EU and exploit the cheap labour there, and where is the EU to help either the British worker who lost his/her job, or the Polish worker who is going to get fucked over in terms of surplus value extracted??