Collapse postponed?

[ComradeRed]

OK, marx said that the profit from the surplus value would decrease, increasing exploitation, therefore capitalism must collapse, right? But it depends on the labor-capital proportion to decrease; however, in the last century it increased. Therefore, is it still bound to collapse as Marx foresaw, or is it postponed?

[antieverything]

Lenin had plenty to say on the subject. Gramsci's ideas are more accurate though, I think.

Most Marxists don't really think that capitalism will inevitably collapse these days.

[Don't Change Your Name]

The thing is that the market tends to balance itself. However it's not a perfect system (for example its not good for the economy to have everyone employed as that would generate inflation, but it's not good to have a lot of unemployment because there wont be enough consumption and that could create overproduction), so it tends to have crisis, if it's not a recession it is inflation, if it's not that there isn't enough consumption then it is that there is a lot of competition, etc.
So I think we should look at the following:
- technological advances
- overpopulation
- overproduction
- excessive pollution
- lack of resources
- spread of information
- wars and conflicts
- possible spread of "laissez-faire"/libertarianism
Those and other things can influde the collapse of capitalism. But I don't think it's going to happen now (I think first of all we will have to wait until capitalism is everywhere, possibly with some kind of worldwide libertarian market which will collapse after a while) but chances are that it will eventually.

I think it hasn't "postponed", it's just that it has modified itself to get out of many crisis (usually through the "welfare state" and government intervention), which made it reactivate itself many times, and at the same time it gave hopes to the workers that they could have some other things the didn't have with the "free" unregulated market.

Just my 2 cents

[redstar2000]

It is something of an embarrassment, isn't it?

The "final collapse" of capitalism was seen as "imminent" not only in the writings of Marx and Engels but those of Lenin and Trotsky as well.

By 1950 or so, it was pretty clear that capitalism had survived both the great depression and World War II and had even been strengthened by those events.

After that, the "final collapse" began to recede into the hazy future...sort of like the "second coming of Christ". All the energies of the left switched over to the "anti-imperialist" analysis...that capitalism in the "west" would fall due to successful anti-imperialist revolutions in the "third world".

Well, there were some successful anti-imperialist revolutions...but they turned out, in fact, to be bourgeois revolutions -- ultimately strengthening capitalism rather than weakening it.

So thought is beginning to turn back towards the "final crisis" as a consequence of the normal functioning of capitalism itself.

One very interesting hypothesis: as capitalism ages, its needs for both a bloated bureaucracy and an elaborate "security" (repression) apparatus constitute an ever-growing strain on its economic vitality. Capital that is not invested in productive activity generates no profit...possibly leading to a serious economic crisis.

Another problem with modern capitalism is consumer credit; the "western" working class can only maintain its "middle-class" standard-of-living by going increasingly into debt (with interest rates of 20% per year or more). Any half-way serious recession could cause this house of (plastic) cards to collapse...possibly triggering another great depression and a "final collapse".

I suspect that there are other ideas along these lines that I'm not familiar with. It's not only a fascinating problem intellectually; it has real world consequences.

Like communist revolution.

:redstar2000:

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