Martyrdom

[Trissy]

Okay, ignoring religious martyrs if we can (because we all know where this topic would then lead), what are peoples' views of martrydom for social, political or philosophical reasons...

Are there ideas and goals which become greater then the life of an individual? If so what are they, and how can we decide when a cause calls for perhaps the ultimate act of commitment? Are abstract ideas like Reason worth dying for (perhaps we could call Socrates the first philosophical martyr for this cause) or should we be prepared to sacrifice our lives only for real changes in the world around us (such as the freedom the French resistance fought for in WW2)?

On a personal note I think I would risk my life for the latter of the two, but I think this comes down to personal choice at the end of the day. Some people do choose to die for Beauty or Justice...who am I to comment?

[DaCuBaN]

I would never lay my life down for a 'cause'. The only thing I see as being worth dying for is the extension of another's life(s). But then I do have a low sense of self worth :rolleyes:

[Trissy]

That raises another question...if you do sacrifice yourself, is it because you see your life as being important enough for the thing you would die for, or is it because you value your life as being so unimportant it doesn't matter if you die for the greater cause?

[Essential Insignificance]

A remarkable question to contemplate over…after little "reflection" I would give my life for the appropriated "cause" myself, and presumedly among many others.

I regard life of individuals very irrelevantly, therefore its only natural to look at mine with the same consideration.

To answer the question in your second post "Trissy"…it might already be obvious, but I value not just my own but everyone’s life, generally, unimportant enough …to die for the greater cause for the supposed majority.

Although that’s not to imply that life should be "thrown away" when the "cause" does not look like its going to be fruitful and productive.

[RedAnarchist]

I would sacrifice my life for Communism, for freedom, for equality, for the oppressed and for women and children.

One person's life is a small price to pay for freedom, equality, liberty and Communism.

[cubist]

i would die trying in revolution (shot by opposing forces) but i would not sacrifice my life in protest to existance i believe the loss of life in protest of something is silly the protest ends when you die if you stay alive you can fight another die, but thats me

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

I would sacrifice my life in a fight against fascism, anything that seeks to restrict the expression of ideas ( especially anything that tried to come down of philosophical thought ) I believe would be worth giving my life for.

I guess if I had to die for reason like Socrates I would die knowing it was worth it.

[Hate Is Art]

I wouldn't kill myself, if I was ever captured I would willingly give up my life.

I would give up my life for many things, we are not above the cause so it isn't about the individual it's about achieving communism for the whole.

[Dirty Commie]

I view life as a long series of dull and dreary moments and few fun and exciting ones here and there....

if it would either make the world a better place for most people, or I would enjopy myself while dying, I see no problem with dying at anytime. But for a good enough reason (killing cops/nazis/rightwingers in general) I would die.....I live a particularly repetative and deary life, so I'll try anything.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

I imagine dying whilst bringing down a whole group of nazis would in a sense make death a very happy moment, like you would no doubt be thining oh shit Im gonna die but hey if it keeps these fuckers off the streets then maybe its worth it. And my life is ok, not boring or anything but thats seems like a feeling that would be worth it.

[Trissy]

Some very interesting thoughts especially since many of them have a Nietzschean ring to them. I hadn't started this topic in reference to the following quote from 'Thus Spoke Zarathustra' but reading all your responces reminded me of it so I thought I'd include it...


21. Voluntary Death
MANY die too late, and some die too early. Yet strange sounds the precept: "Die at the right time! Die at the right time: thus teaches Zarathustra. To be sure, how could he who never lives at the right time ever die at the right time? If only he had never been born!- Thus do I advise the superfluous. But even the superfluous make a show of their death, and even the hollowest nut wants to be cracked. All regard dying as a great matter: but as yet death is not a festival. People have not yet learned to inaugurate the finest festivals. I teach you the death which consummates, and becomes a spur and promise to the living. He who consummates his life, then dies triumphant, surrounded by those who hope and promise. Thus should one learn to die; and there should be no festival at which one who dies in this way does not consecrate the oaths of the living! Thus to die is best; the next best, however, is to die in battle, and squander a great soul. But equally hateful to vanquished and victor, is the grinning death which steals nigh like a thief,- and yet comes as master. My death I praise to you, the voluntary death, which comes to me because I want it.

Any other thoughts? Is the usual vision of our deaths (a quiet and peaceful death in the clutches of old age) something we should flee from? Is dying in the clutches of decadence so terrible? Personally I don't wish to die in a needlessly young and horrific manner purely in order to escape such a death, but at the same time I want my death to be a worthy part of my life and not just the curtain falling for the last time.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

I guess I am personally influenced by the Nietzschen idea of leeing decadence, I do not want to die of old age or of disease that slowly destroys me, I would rather destroy myself and possible in a way that brings about change somehow.

[toastedmonkey]

i wouldnt die for anything, i would fight for lots of things though

you can do alot more things when your alive than when you are dead

[El Che]

How do you guys feel about palestinian martyrs?

[che's long lost daughter]

I would die fighting for what I believe is right.

[Wenty]

I would never die if my death caused other deaths. I would die for a cause if i believed in it passionaetly enough.

[MiniOswald]

i dunno its a bit tricky, i mean i guess i'd have to see when i got their.
There is one report of a man in the battle of stalingrad in ww2 who after seeing his entire squad get killed called in a full artillery barage on himself, now u see that now theres a lot of cases like that in soviet russia during ww2, those people truely beleived they died for the motherland.

So i guess most people could do it if they truely beleive its for the best, like stopping a bullet for someone you care about, most people here would run in the way if they thought it was only thing they could do.

with regards to religious martyrs i treat them like anyone else who is willing to lay down they're life for a cause, i may not beleive they're right but they're determination and dedication deserves respect

[monkeydust]

I honestly don't know on this one. I could say something here, though it's hard to make a judgement whether or not I would die for something, until the situation actually arises.

I think there's always going to be a lot more religious martyrs than those for political reasons. Simply because, for the religious zealot, death is not the end, it is only a transition.

[Hate Is Art]

palenstine martyrs are pointless, the whole palestinian sucide bombers just sparks off a cycle of violence.

[El Che]

Originally posted by Digital [email protected] 2 2004, 05:16 PM
palenstine martyrs are pointless, the whole palestinian sucide bombers just sparks off a cycle of violence.
You got a point but ask yourself this question: What would you do if you were under occupation?

[Trissy]

How do you guys feel about palestinian martyrs?

Whilst I support the Palestinian cause and can understand why many of them feel driven into such acts, I don't support the methods they use. Like in Northern Ireland I feel their actions just add more fuel to the fire and help keep the cycle of hatred turning.


with regards to religious martyrs i treat them like anyone else who is willing to lay down they're life for a cause, i may not beleive they're right but they're determination and dedication deserves respect

Well I did want to keep religious martyrs out of this thread but since it has been brought up I'll briefly comment on them. I don't support religious martyrs and nor do I see them in the same light as people who become martyrs for polical, social or personal reasons. I feel this way because I think it is a different type of martyrdom.

As religion is the issue they become martyr for I feel they are putting themselves above the cause because of their belief that their actions will bring them 'glory' and salvation (when those they leave behind in this world with a more uncertain future). Also I think polical martyrdom can have clear benefits in this world, whereas religious martyrdom seeks to make changes in both this world and in a transcendant one. Since we can never be sure about the existence of a transcendant world then I feel that this is presumptious and arrogant in a sense. People can have faith in all kinds of things but the whole nature of faith means that it arises from a position uncertainty, and from this I feel that you cannot use faith as a basis for becoming a martyr.

[Kurai Tsuki]

It was the Hizb Allah martyrs who made Israel and America respectively out of northern Lebanon and Lebanon in general in the early 1980's. I can't condemn a tactic that's so effective and take's so much courage.

[Raisa]

Probably some one who needs my help.

[karma-cola]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2004, 09:56 PM
I imagine dying whilst bringing down a whole group of nazis would in a sense make death a very happy moment, like you would no doubt be thining oh shit Im gonna die but hey if it keeps these fuckers off the streets then maybe its worth it. And my life is ok, not boring or anything but thats seems like a feeling that would be worth it.
Why hate nazi's :(

Nazi's are misguided and need to be corrected

All they need is a little bit of love from you leftists



Some people are useful to the world dead
others are more useful alive

depending on which category you think you belong to
you must take suitable steps

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

If there is an alternative to martyrdom I'll take it.

If, on the other hand, you are surrounded by enemies (Be they nazis, cappies, religious freaks or aliens) on all sides, are low on ammunition, and there's others around to see you, martyrdom makes more sense than dying on your knees.


Why hate nazi's

Nazi's are misguided and need to be corrected

All they need is a little bit of love from you leftists

Nazis cannot be 'corrected' we can stop them from spewing out their vile polemic (Cut out their tongues) but we cannot stop them from thinking nazi, unless we stop their brain, which inevitably involves killing them.

Damn I feel barbaric today.

[cubist]

Karma, i sense you are one of those loving go happy god dwellers, as much as you may want to love everything, NAZI's undermine everything any humane person stands for, how you can like them is very worrying

[karma-cola]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2004, 01:03 PM
Karma, i sense you are one of those loving go happy god dwellers, as much as you may want to love everything, NAZI's undermine everything any humane person stands for, how you can like them is very worrying
The fact that they are humans is enough to like them

There is inherent good in all human beings in some it is
visible and in some its hidden.

People are not born nazi's ,communists or cappies.

They become what their environment moulds them into
And a whole lot of ignorance is also required

I think when people do not get enough love then they sort of prefer
to get hate.
thats what makes them do barbaric things its the attention they crave

There is still hope for nazi's

[ric]

wouldn't it be better if everybody was ready to die for each other than to steal, take, burn and discriminate each other.

im only 15 but ready to die, im not afraid of death, but im not going to get killed for the hell of it. there must be a reason for a great one at that.

[Trissy]

im only 15 but ready to die, im not afraid of death, but im not going to get killed for the hell of it

I agree with that getting killed for the hell of it is an odd prospect but beware making a such a bold claim as 'im only 15 but ready to die, im not afraid of death'. Many of us on here are young and so death is a far off inevitability which it makes it easy to say such things...the thing is we'll all get older and the clammy hand of death will get ever closer to us...many of us will create and use many illusions to distract ourselves (job, family, religion, etc) and when we realise it we'll become very afraid. After all why do think many people go through midlife crises? Death and the unknown are forever in our presence...hence we must live with this as best we can. Become an existentialist :D

[FriedFrog]

most people aint afraid of dyin, they just don't want to. anywho, back to the original question, i personally would die for anything that i thought neccessary at the time. if it came to the decision of me or someone else, i'd probably say me every time. if it came to dying for communism, i think i would.

[themessiah]

dying is easy, living is the hard part

what would I die for? if an american: a cheesburger. the right to drive an SUV and roll over all mid sized cars in my way. anti gun control. low wages. dance music. TV.

what would I die for? gave up wanting to be a MArtyr an enternity ago. would die for my children. my wife.

[Zmal]

Martyrs, when made proper use of, are an essential element to any kind of social revolution. Best way to gain sympathy from the masses is a good martyr or three.

[truthaddict11]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2004, 07:29 PM
Martyrs, when made proper use of, are an essential element to any kind of social revolution. Best way to gain sympathy from the masses is a good martyr or three.
how is people being killed or killing themselves for a "cause" gonna help start a revolution? Matryrdom is stupid I certainly am not laying down my life for any cause. The bad thing about being a matryr is you have to die and i am not ready for that.

[DaCuBaN]

would die for my children. my wife

So you would allow another child to run in front of a bus?

If we are going down these lines, I would die for anyone's right to continued existence.

Almost a contradiction, eh? ;)

[Zmal]

Originally posted by truthaddict11+May 25 2004, 12:56 AM--> (truthaddict11 @ May 25 2004, 12:56 AM)
[email protected] 24 2004, 07:29 PM
Martyrs, when made proper use of, are an essential element to any kind of social revolution. Best way to gain sympathy from the masses is a good martyr or three.
how is people being killed or killing themselves for a "cause" gonna help start a revolution? Matryrdom is stupid I certainly am not laying down my life for any cause. The bad thing about being a matryr is you have to die and i am not ready for that. [/b]
Look at the civil rights movement. Lynchings and police brutality got a LOT of sympathy for the movement and allowed it to take the moral high ground. I guess Im maybe using the term incorrectly. I mean an innocent person who is in the wrong place at the wrong time and affiliated with the wrong movement and is killed. After that the memory of the person can be used as a ralying call.

[truthaddict11]

you dont see people waving around photos of john doe because he was lynched, someone being executed by the Klan is not matyrism. sure seeing people being beaten on televison in the south did make people aware of what was going on but it didnt turn them into martyrs. If you think that a few "martrys" are going to bring about a revolution go ahead and volunteer! just hope you want to die.

[Zmal]

Im not saying you go looking for death, Im saying once it comes your death can and should be made use of. Im certainly not saying Im gonna go out and shoot at cops until I get gunned down in some deranged attempt at becoming a martry but if I was killed unjustly Id want whatever cause I was affiliated with to make use of my death.

and as I understand it any death that is later glorified is considered martyrdom? It doesnt have to be a willing death. I think....

[themessiah]

bus? what?

whose kid? why are they running in front of buses?

why would me sacrificing my life for my immediate family cause another kid to run in front of a bus?

and how would that be a contradiction anyway?

what are you talking about?

the typical martyr, when you strip away all the lofty goals and political motivations is only sacrificing him or herself for their people: their family. sort of like what I meant.

[Pawn Power]

i guess i would fight to the death in a communist revoultion, if that is what i am needed for, for us to progress.