The Intellectual Elitism of the Left has got to go

[perception]

I think a lot of the fading appeal of leftist thought is the intellectual stagnation that has occurred over the last half century or so. Nobody has all of the answers, but I notice too many leftist 'arguments' reek of this pseudo-enlightened self image.

For leftist thought to be reawakened, I think two things half to happen: First, leftists have to accept that capitalism is a legitimate ideology for a person to hold. If someone believes that capitalism is meritocratic and that there should be differentiation among individuals' wealth and income, and that capitalism facilitates this, that doesn't make them stupid. I disagree with them and I'm sure you all do as well, but that doesn't make us more intelligent than them, or even more informed.

Second, we must confront this ideology with our own original ideas, not a rehash of what the left has been repeating for the last 150 years. They didn't accept Das Kapital when it was first published, you explaining it in your own words is not going to make it more attractive. The basic arguments of the left are too idealistic for widespread appeal, especially in the results-oriented West. The left is too revolution-oriented; by that, I mean we just insist on our own rectitude and insist that in the end everyone else will see we were right. This is not progressive and will not accomplish anything. The ideology we are up against is very attractive: it claims that everyone is treated equally and has the same chance to get ahead, and you will get what you give. Confronting this is no light task, and disproving it is insufficient; it's been tried, people don't want to believe that isn't true. We must develop a coherent, consistent and equally attractive ideology of our own.

Thoughts?

[Individual]

Getting past denial is the first step to recovery.

Yes, what they tell you in rehabilitation centers applies to right wing politics.

I agree that we need all need to be more open minded. However not open minded to the point of accepting Capitalism.

You are correct in that Capitalism works. However Capitalism works for few.

I agree that all Capitalists are not stupid, but neither are all leftists. The idea that the left needs to open our views, and get past our "pseudo" arguments is crazy.

You say that we must "rehash" our thoughts, and come up with our own. This would not be leftism. While I agree that concepts created many years ago need to be differentiated and altered to fit the modern world, we cannot deny theories that have already been made.

Quite honestly, I am not worried about the "right" accepting the works of Marx. In fact, I don't expect them too.

Can a blind man tell you the color of your shirt?

Imagine the "right" as this blind man. They try to "analyze" the color of you shirt by what two other blind men tell them. They weigh the options, then decide on what color option would look better on themselves, then give their answer.

This is how "right" wing politics work, therefore should we expect them to understand leftist theories?

The biggest problem is what takes place on both sides of the political spectrum. The lack of independent thought. To an extent, I see where you are trying to get at. However we must all not create our own ideologies.

The key is education. The key to this education is analyzing both sides to the argument. In doing this, you find the positives and negatives of the ideologies, then weigh your options to reflect what you feel are important aspects.

Even "leftists" fall under ignorance and follow the cause blindly. We must all examine both sides of any argument, and think for ourselves. While I certainly agree that the "left side" of the political spectrum is suited to better the lives of everyone, do not follow every cause based on anothers opinion.

Like you said, nobody has all of the answers. The goal is to work to acheive this goal, yet do it without being influenced.

[Essential Insignificance]

think a lot of the fading appeal of leftist thought is the intellectual stagnation that has occurred over the last half century or so.

I personally would go one step supplementary and advocate the last 100 years or so, after the death of Engel’s. Although that’s not to say that there has not been ''progressiveness'' in both the fields of practice and theory.


For leftist thought to be reawakened, I think two things half to happen: First, leftists have to accept that capitalism is a legitimate ideology for a person to hold.

Once more of course it is…depending your ''position'' within it.


Second, we must confront this ideology with our own original ideas, not a rehash of what the left has been repeating for the last 150 years. They didn't accept Das Kapital when it was first published, you explaining it in your own words is not going to make it more attractive.

Who unerringly didn’t concede it.


Confronting this is no light task, and disproving it is insufficient; it's been tried, people don't want to believe that isn't true. We must develop a coherent, consistent and equally attractive ideology of our own.

Marx has already a ''high-quality'' ideology …that’s not to say that ''revision'' is not desirable.

[perception]

I agree that we need all need to be more open minded. However not open minded to the point of accepting Capitalism.

Did I say accept Capitalism as an economic system? No, I did not.


You are correct in that Capitalism works. However Capitalism works for few.


SHOW ME WHERE I SAID THAT CAPITALISM WORKS. I said nothing anywhere close to that. Do you have an autoresponse generator or something?


Quite honestly, I am not worried about the "right" accepting the works of Marx. In fact, I don't expect them too.

Well are you worried about the 'masses' accepting them? Because by and large they don't.


The biggest problem is what takes place on both sides of the political spectrum. The lack of independent thought. To an extent, I see where you are trying to get at. However we must all not create our own ideologies.

First part is true. Where did I say 'create your own ideologies'? All I'm asking for are IDEAS.


The key is education. The key to this education is analyzing both sides to the argument. In doing this, you find the positives and negatives of the ideologies, then weigh your options to reflect what you feel are important aspects.

Bullshit. This is what I'm talking about. All I hear from Marxists: educate, educate, educate, raise the consciousness of the masses, educate, and all of a sudden *poof* communism. I don't buy it. It's not enough to educate, you have to convince someone that you have something better, and that it can work. Too much of leftist thought is stuck in the 19th and 20th centuries. It needs to evolve.

[perception]

You cannot apply a mid-18th century diagnosis of capitalism to the 21st century. Do capitalists still make use of Adam Smith's theories(beyond rhetoric of course)?

[perception]

Let me reword what I meant by this:


leftists have to accept that capitalism is a legitimate ideology for a person to hold.

I mean that for someone to believe that capitalism (i.e. allocation of goods and property by the market and economic stratification of individuals by his/her ability to generate income; or more basically, private ownership of the means of production) is the best economic system for society, is a legitimate point of view. It may be incorrect, it may not be my or your point of view, but it is not a)irrational, b) stupid, or c) evil (well, maybe it is evil.)

[Essential Insignificance]

Well are you worried about the 'masses' accepting them? Because by and large they don't.


Because lack of awareness…a year and a half ago I had no idea who "Marx" was.


You cannot apply a mid-18th century diagnosis of capitalism to the 21st century. Do capitalists still make use of Adam Smith's theories(beyond rhetoric of course)?

Yes you can…Karl Marx is known and referred by a lot as a 20th century economist…capitalism does have a incredibly "definite" pattern.

Adam Smiths and David Ricardo’s work(s) are not looked upon seriously anymore …because it is flawed; Marx was one of those that demonstrated it.

But this is absolutely not to say…that Marx’s economics is not up for "revision".



Bullshit. This is what I'm talking about. All I hear from Marxists: educate, educate, educate, raise the consciousness of the masses, educate, and all of a sudden *poof* communism. I don't buy it.

No one has said it was going to be easy…the bourgeoisie it one group that is trying to put a stop to this of course …among many others.

But that is the way…"mass consciousness".


It's not enough to educate, you have to convince someone that you have something better, and that it can work.

Yes…through the medium of "education".



Too much of leftist thought is stuck in the 19th and 20th centuries. It needs to evolve.

In too what.

[DaCuBaN]

too many leftist 'arguments' reek of this pseudo-enlightened self image

This is a big problem - the whole movement is in fact getting away from the workers in most of the countries where we really need to see leftist ideals making inroads <_<

[perception]

I&#39;d really like to get a discussion on this topic going.



No one has said it was going to be easy…the bourgeoisie it one group that is trying to put a stop to this of course …among many others.

But that is the way…"mass consciousness".

Well explain to me why it is that, as inequality has been increasing at an incredible rate since the 1970&#39;s, &#39;mass consciousness&#39; and the popularity of leftism has been on the decrease. People are &#39;kissing the whip&#39; now more than ever. And I don&#39;t think you can chalk it up to a simple lack of understanding of Marxist ideas.


es you can…Karl Marx is known and referred by a lot as a 20th century economist…capitalism does have a incredibly "definite" pattern.

Would you argue that capitalism has followed the course that Marx laid out?

[Essential Insignificance]

Well explain to me why it is that, as inequality has been increasing at an incredible rate since the 1970&#39;s, &#39;mass consciousness&#39; and the popularity of leftism has been on the decrease. People are &#39;kissing the whip&#39; now more than ever. And I don&#39;t think you can chalk it up to a simple lack of understanding of Marxist ideas.


Like, I think you stated "Leftism" was exceptionally fashionable in the 1960s because of reasons palpable to the onlooker…but being relatively youthful and "apolitical" in the reality of my given nation I am unaware to say for certain if or if not "leftism" has decreased or the antitheses increased.

But after reading some of "Restar2000"s post on another message board just yesterday…whom I am guessing is in his 60s…I am in well favour and so is he that leftism did indeed have a "slump" in the 80s and is now on the increase.

Consciousness has unconditionally nothing to do with Marxism in general…that’s not to say that is would not help or make understanding class society, the division of labour, social relations, historical reality and the general functionings of bourgeoisie society a whole lot easier to understand an comprehend soundly…undoubtedly it would.

But what must be recognized is that that vast majority of the proletarians, quite simply, don’t have the time to study revolutionary politics on a serious note…many I am sure would not be able to even read some of Marx’s more palatable works, such as the "Communist Manifesto".

And this is what the bourgeoisies want generally…"idiots" who don’t know any better then class society and their position it.

Its not generally an mass lack of not understanding Marxism…its inconsequential in the "big scheme" of things…its their given material reality in their given nation under their given class society, what ever level of there division of society is that will lay the path of revolution.

Like many "Leftist", and especially Leninist you are becoming very "impatient"… "why hasn’t the revolution come".

Capitalism is a moderately new class society with totally different formations of those prior.


Just give class-conscious time.




Would you argue that capitalism has followed the course that Marx laid out?

No…I would not squabble over that specifically…because it has generally, there have been times globally when capitalism was in "grave" peril by its own workings.

Do I think capitalism will "self-destruct", yes, with the facilitation from the proletarians…just given it time.