A possible critique of communism

[Subversive Pessimist]

How are you going to make people work on their maximum potential, if the amount of money is the same?

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

You can never make people work to their maximum potential, but there are things you can do to encourage it. I like the system that Cuba has where the needs of the people are provided by the government, and a small wage is given based on the work done. There is a minimum and a maximum wage, so things can't get too out of control, but yet there is still an incentive for people to live up to their potential doing socially useful work.

[Dan_Canadian]

You can never make people work to their maximum potential

This is a very general statement and an assumption on your part

This cannot be PROVED or DISPROVED because it is impossible to MEASURE. You will never know if someone is working to their maximum potential or not.

There is one thing that is easily proved though: People work harder when they have the right incentive, whether that be money, pride, or fear. The petty incentive of a "maximum wage" or "minimum wage" does not make a person work harder. Mostly because the difference between the two is very little. I have travelled to Cuba and my father worked with many Cubans whom I have met also. Do you know what type of jobs the people work hardest at in Cuba? Not doctors, lawyers or teachers...but taxi drivers, bus boys, and other tip earning occupations. They work hard because they know that if they do, the "capitalists" who visit will tip them well, sometimes making 3 times as much as a doctor or lawyer would. One cab driver that I met used to be a doctor, but quit so he could actually make more money.

Let me ask you this, if you had to choose between a doctor working hard for the right incentive...or a cab driver, which would you pick? I sure as hell would rather have a doctor working harder and making more than a cab driver.

So, this was a big problem in Cuba, they actually started limiting the amount that cab drivers can accept as tips...more CONTROL over the people. Thats just one step closer to anarchism...NOT. :P

And if you think the Cuban people enjoy thier communism as much as you do, sitting at home on your computers pondering how you think how the world should work, think again. Most just accept it as a system better than the Batista regime, the lesser of two evils...not exactly as good as it could be, but not as bad...hmmm.

And if you think we are brainwashed by capitalism, and thats why WE think its so great, then you my freind should travel to Cuba. You are bombarded by propaganda, images of Che Guevara plastered all over the god damn place. Most are completly ignorant of the outside world, and its advantages.

This is not an assumption, I have personal experiance yet again. A Cuban who worked for my father came to Canada on a business trip, you should have seen his face. He walked into a dollar store, and stayed there for about three hours, buying hundreds of dollars of merchandise to take back home. He thought, "oh, what a wonderful place where I can buy all of this wonderful stuff." do you want to know what he bought? toothbrushes, plastic toys, hairbrushes, pencils, pens, and other stuff we have PLENTy of and never appreciate.

Communism deprives these fine people of things they could otherwise have. While you may think that owning plastic shit from a dollar store is pretty lame, well, if you never experiance, OR if you don't even have the CHOICE to get such things, they are VERY special. I think its a pity. Communism brought Cuba from the brutal dictatorship, and freed the people. But that is only one step...they can't stop at this stage. Marx would agree with me, if you don't think so, ask me, I DARE YOU :D

[New Tolerance]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 10:29 PM
How are you going to make people work on their maximum potential, if the amount of money is the same?
Assume that there will be such as thing as "money" under what people here think of as communism. I think a good amount of people here believe that money should not exsist, and something else should replace it (something that doesn't work the same way).

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

There is one thing that is easily proved though: People work harder when they have the right incentive, whether that be money, pride, or fear. The petty incentive of a "maximum wage" or "minimum wage" does not make a person work harder. Mostly because the difference between the two is very little. I have travelled to Cuba and my father worked with many Cubans whom I have met also. Do you know what type of jobs the people work hardest at in Cuba? Not doctors, lawyers or teachers...but taxi drivers, bus boys, and other tip earning occupations. They work hard because they know that if they do, the "capitalists" who visit will tip them well, sometimes making 3 times as much as a doctor or lawyer would. One cab driver that I met used to be a doctor, but quit so he could actually make more money.

Bah, the Cuban government ought to put a stop to such a capitalist enterprise, and replace it with either a collectivized transportation system, or make it a government industry that is regulated just like the rest of them. If you can't measure who is working to their potential, then how can you tell who is working hardest? The Cuban government has looked the other way at some of the capitalist activity like the taxi situation, or even prostitutes, (something I strongly disagree with) but do you not think there are doctors who are truely dedicated to the cause of keeping people healty? The Cuban economy is not all wrong, it merely needs some minor adjustments (stomping out the capitalistic activities that the government has tolerated). Besides, most of the people who were not dedicated to socialism already left Cuba. Cuba is a third world country, and it would be that way no matter what government was there. The Cuban governenment has made the best out of the bad situation and made sure that people are being taken care of. I think the entire Cuban economy can be summarized in one quote. "There are 200 million children sleeping on the streets in the world, and not one of them is Cuban." The only thing communism deprives people is the right to become the type of murderous theives that capitalism creates and the right to enjoy a life of wasteful opulance while the poor people, and the environment, are stuck footing the bill.

[lucid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 10:40 PM
You can never make people work to their maximum potential, but there are things you can do to encourage it. I like the system that Cuba has where the needs of the people are provided by the government, and a small wage is given based on the work done. There is a minimum and a maximum wage, so things can't get too out of control, but yet there is still an incentive for people to live up to their potential doing socially useful work.
Yeah, the high performer gets two dollars a day and the lower performer gets a buck twenty five. Luckely a lot of Cubans have relatives in the US that send money to them.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Luckely a lot of Cubans have relatives in the US that send money to them.

And thats another thing the government needs to put an end to. Why should a family get to live better then another just because they have relatives in the US? If they want Yankee dollers, then they should be sent to Yankeeland.

[NYC4Ever]

If the family wants to live better than what the oppressive dictator that lives in royalty than its their right.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Have you seen the Fidel palace? I really love Fidel's precious royal guerrilla uniform! I'm so glad Fidel has all the money in the world, and I really love his F1 McLauren and his private cruise ship. I wonder what color his 12th Porshe is going to be? Cmon, get real. People have the right to have their needs met. They have the right to food, shelter, clothing, education, and medical care, not the right to wallow in dollars like capitalist pigs.

[Nyder]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 12:07 AM
Have you seen the Fidel palace? I really love Fidel's precious royal guerrilla uniform! I'm so glad Fidel has all the money in the world, and I really love his F1 McLauren and his private cruise ship. I wonder what color his 12th Porshe is going to be? Cmon, get real. People have the right to have their needs met. They have the right to food, shelter, clothing, education, and medical care, not the right to wallow in dollars like capitalist pigs.
But if people have a 'right' to all that stuff then there are others who therefore must have an obligation to provide it. Either you can enforce it using violence or threat of violence - or leave people alone where they will sort out demand for these particular services in the marketplace.

'Political power comes through the barrel of a gun' - Mao.

[Dan_Canadian]

"There are 200 million children sleeping on the streets in the world, and not one of them is Cuban."

A homeless person in the Caribbean and a homeless person in North America are two entirely different things. A homeless person in Canada, for instance, can not simply expect to put up a shack somewhere and live through the winter, they would freeze to death. A homeless person in the Carribbean can make a shanty in one of the many poverty ridden towns in Cuba and live throughout the year with relative ease, and be classified as not homeless. Just because they have homes doesn't mean their lives are perfect, they are far from it, ACtually

[Commie Girl]

:blink: I was talking to someone today about myself and my guy going to Cuba next month for our wedding. I was asked how that is possible, what with all the curfews and how unsafe it is to be in that country......blah blah, you can't leave your resort, etc. for fear of criminal activity! My God! And what about all the shanty towns where all the poor people live? COMe on! This is what people in general are fed through mass media about Cuba! I was shocked! When I informed that person that we werent going to leave the safety off our resort because we were going to stay in the CITY, they would not believe we would put ourselves at such risk! Is this what most people believe?

[Touchstone]

yeah, unfortunatly.

[lucid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 12:07 AM
Have you seen the Fidel palace? I really love Fidel's precious royal guerrilla uniform! I'm so glad Fidel has all the money in the world, and I really love his F1 McLauren and his private cruise ship. I wonder what color his 12th Porshe is going to be? Cmon, get real. People have the right to have their needs met. They have the right to food, shelter, clothing, education, and medical care, not the right to wallow in dollars like capitalist pigs.
But they don't have the right to have money sent to them by relatives? You mentioned that you where against this. Yet it's ok if the money it stolen from someone else and then redistributed.

:rolleyes:


They have the right to persure happiness, not the right of happiness. Put the spliff down Mr. Garcia.

[Osman Ghazi]

They have the right to persure happiness

It's funny that you say that because the phrase in the American Constitution that says 'the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' was taken almost verbatim from John Locke except that he said 'life, liberty and the pursuit of private property'.

[Misodoctakleidist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 10:29 PM
How are you going to make people work on their maximum potential, if the amount of money is the same?
Quite simply it isn't.

Now explain how you expect "people to work on their maximum potential" in a capitalist society if they recieve the same wage at the end of every month regardless of how hard they work?

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

But if people have a 'right' to all that stuff then there are others who therefore must have an obligation to provide it. Either you can enforce it using violence or threat of violence - or leave people alone where they will sort out demand for these particular services in the marketplace.

Yes, people do have an obligation to do socially useful work. The threat of violence is unnecessary, not only is there desire to give back to society, but there is also the small money incentive as well for less desirable tasks.


'Political power comes through the barrel of a gun' - Mao.

Thats the first thing you've said that I agree with.

[Dan_Canadian]

[/QUOTE]Now explain how you expect "people to work on their maximum potential" in a capitalist society if they recieve the same wage at the end of every month regardless of how hard they work?
[QUOTE]

People will generally recieve raises for working harder, some cases they don't, so they fucking quit the shitty job, get a new one. Can Cubans do that? You bet your bottom dollar they can't.

And, last time I checked, in Canadian Unions, and in most jobs, you can't go a certain amount of time without getting a raise. I get a raise every year, promoted if I do good work...I like it that way...thanks