Pacifism....a dead concept? - does it have any teeth today?

[Supermodel]

Pacifism: it seemed to be strong during the Vietnam War and Cambodian conflict but it's been side-lined today as a Hollywood-hype-limousine-liberal-goody-goody-buddhist thing.

Where is the pacifist voice in the current armed struggles around the world? In sub-Saharan Africa, and Indonesia?

Is pacifism consistent with Capitalism?
Is pacifism consistent with Socialism?

Thoughts?

[James]

This is a mini example, but I think the principle still applies.
At my school the guys on top are the guys who are hard. They beat the shit out of anyone who is against them or different (I am both and more). Thus I have experienced being beaten up an awful lot, especially during my early years of high school. I didn’t do anything to defend my self. I stand out coz I used to live in southern Britain (thus have a very “posh” accent), and moved “up north” to Manchester area (north west of England). I was bullied for so many years, and I didn’t stand up for my self. Then two years ago I stood up for myself. This guy was bullying me, and suddenly I realized what a fucking wimp I was being, I had been keeping to all the rules I had been taught. This was the day I changed. One day, as per usual, he was bullying me, this time though, I got up and kicked the shit out of him.
I got suspended, because I was fighting, it didn’t matter that I was defending myself (coz this guy was hitting me in the first place), I had been fighting and at our school it’s “unacceptable”. Our school is very backwards, they like to do stupid stuff like punish people for stupid things, and then pretend there is no drug problem, or they search anyone and get embarrassed when nothing is found.
Well anyway, from this day forth I stood up for myself. However I had learned that I could use a greater weapon than these thugs will ever had. I used my brain. I could out smart any of them, and eventually they learned to leave me alone. This was because when ever they slagged me off, or tried to hit me etc. I would point out properly what they were doing. I made them look stupid, I kind of took the “moral high ground” and it worked. I have never punched some one in the face, and never intend to. Nor use physical force to get my point across. I don’t know if this is of any use, but its what I go off, and has earned me a lot of respect, even with many right winged bastards at my school.
The point I’m trying to get across is that violence really has no use; sure I stopped this guy from bullying me by kicking him in, but I got into just as much shit as he did. I have stopped my self from getting bullied, and I have been able to protect others by simply using reason. I’m sure many others could learn from this.

----

“What ye send forth comes back to thee
So ever mind the law of three.
Follow this with mind and heart,
Merry ye meet, and merry ye part.

Blessed Be.”


Wicca saying

[peaccenicked]

War is always about property ownership
or liberation from oppression.
Socialism abolishes both motiffs, at least eventually.
Peace without justice is a war waiting to happen.
for links to many peace and conflict resolution sites
http://www.warpeace.org


(Edited by peaccenicked at 8:23 pm on Feb. 5, 2002)

[Supermodel]

Supermodel jumps up and down and cheers for James!!!

Way to go James!!! Nobody messes with our James!!!

I can't remember where this quote comes from: "There are worse things than war".

While the Jewish population has been trying to get out word of how active a resistance they actually had during the Holocaust, there is no doubt that many Jews at the time passively accepted what was happening to them.

Personally, there are good many issues I would take up arms and fight for, but only after diplomatic channels had been exhausted.

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from Supermodel on 8:20 pm on Feb. 5, 2002
While the Jewish population has been trying to get out word of how active a resistance they actually had during the Holocaust, there is no doubt that many Jews at the time passively accepted what was happening to them.That's completely different. I don't know what passive acceptance has to do with this.

Pacifism and violence both work in different situations. I can't think of a single example of pacifism and violence having similar potential. There's always a better choice. I tend to favor pacifism in general and more than lots of other people because a) Violence can hurt the credibility of a movement but it would be very hard for pacifism to do that, and B) The less people you hurt or scare, the more people there are on your side. Also, pacifist movement have had a lot more luck with weeding out the wackos and the principles that they fight for in themselves are often portrayed a lot more favorably in the media. Obviously, in Batista's Cuba violence was needed, but there aren't as many black-and-white examples like this as some people believe. I'm not a pacifist because there are plenty of examples of war that I'd be gung-ho for, but I personally am probably in the more peaceful half.

[bleed3r]

it can work. i'm not sure if ghandi applies, that was more of a passive resistance, but still pacifistic. and look what he accomplished (besides being assassinated of course =p)

[Renegade]

not to mention being the cause of religious sectarian violence, lol

[vox]

Supermodel,

Pacificism has nothing at all to do with acceptance. It's very possible to be nonviolent and still actively resist. As Gandhi made clear, nonviolence is not passive, but ACTIVE resistance.

Think of it this way. Of Southern blacks had armed themselves during the civil rights movement in the US, and shot at the police, would they have been successful? Or would they have been brutalized and killed?

vox

[RedCeltic]

Think of it this way. Of Southern blacks had armed themselves during the civil rights movement in the US, and shot at the police, would they have been successful? Or would they have been brutalized and killed?

If Martin Luther King Jr. rather than leading marches and making speaches, planted bombs, and hired assassins, he would have been propetuating the common belief of the time that blacks where subhuman and inferior. Perhaps things would have even been worse for them as whites would have viewed them as people who wanted to destroy their way of life.

Sort of how some view Muslims in the wake of 9/11.

[vox]

Exactly, RC.

Violence, as has been shown time and again, begets violence.

The civil rights movement in the US would almost certainly have perished had the protestors been violent. They endured harsh punishment, but gained much, too.

It is by appealing to the best, not the worst, that things get accomplished, I think.

vox

[Moskitto]

Hey, James, Do home counties people (like me) really sound like that compared to up north people?

Some linguistic people say that home counties people don't have accents, and northern people disagree (apparently) and I disagree because people where I live don't say Ts. It's like Lu Un, Lay On Buzzard.

[James]

I lived in a small village near portsmouth (hampshire). When i went down there again 2 years ago, i was shocked by how much i had lost my accent. Bolton (near to where i live) has a very strong accent. Its like they can't pronounce certain letters (like in grass. Southerners pronounce the G and the R, while bolterners pronounce the R, A and the S. Similar to Brass etc.). Most don't realize they have an accent till they are in an area that has such a different one. I personal think that Bolteners are lazy twats who can't be arsed pronouncing letters (mainly T's!!!).

[CommieBastard]

The Scouse accent is the purest form of english :)

[James]

i think there is a thin line between pascifism, and being walked all over. I believe that one most be strong mentaly, to be a pascifist. Unlike the facist, that is usualy strong physicaly and thus is maybe sometimes why he/she is one (a facist). They think they can simply make people do what they want by using force. Of course you can get strong, mentaly, facists. But i think that most intelligant people are far more clever, so they see past (more) what facists simply see.

i don't know if that makes any sense

[Kez]

Quote: from CommieBastard on 10:27 pm on Feb. 7, 2002
The Scouse accent is the purest form of english :)


MANCS AND SCOUSERS UNITE AND FIGHT AGAINST SOUTHERM PONCES

uh, i say........

comrade kamo

u know what RC was saying about the black shooting the opppresive police? well what if they did take arms? its hypotheticacl to say blacks would have lost, maybe it would have been better, maybe worse, but they took loads of shit, and still do maybe because of their pacifist stance.
However, their record would have been shit if they couldnt justify their cause to the world

know what i mean lark, yeah man.

comrade northern4life kamo

[Moskitto]

People in the south are not just a bunch of fascist ponces. Annother member comes from the same town as I do (and it's not McLaren) and their are other leftists here.

[RedCeltic]

Speeking of accents... when my relitives came to vist from Scotland, they said they got a big kick out of the way we talk here in New York... said they felt like they where in a never ending mafia movie. :)

[James]

i prefered living in southern britain

alot more