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View Full Version : Left-Wing Vs. Right-Wing



DSCH
24th April 2004, 06:14
...............Left-Wing.............................................. .........Vs....................................... ..............Right-Wing
http://www.tliquest.net/truth/political%20spectrum.jpg

http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalc...tremeright.html (http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/extremeright.html)


Once you accept that left and right are merely measures of economic position, the "extreme right" refers to extremely liberal economics that may be practised by social authoritarians or social libertarians.

Similarly, the "extreme left" identifies a strong degree of state economic control, which may also be accompanied by liberal or authoritarian social policies.

BuyOurEverything
24th April 2004, 06:20
Man don't make me post that illuminati conspiracy again.

Essential Insignificance
24th April 2004, 08:02
What nonsense…it seems to be a little out of date…among many other crucial inaccuracies.

Australia-Democratic Socialism :lol:

Monty Cantsin
24th April 2004, 09:30
that scale is wrong, Fascism is right wing to say the least.

Nyder
24th April 2004, 09:41
Originally posted by Essential [email protected] 24 2004, 08:02 AM
What nonsense…it seems to be a little out of date…among many other crucial inaccuracies.

Australia-Democratic Socialism :lol:
Well I wouldn't really call Australia a 'democracy'. More like a muted version that is self serving to two very dominant political parties. The Government is very large, though, and has socialist leanings in the form of income distribution (like most governments).

Invader Zim
24th April 2004, 10:43
The political compass is far better: -

http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/images/axeswithnames.gif

sh0cker
24th April 2004, 11:07
I woulden't agree on Gandhi on the first place..

Second, Australia is DEMOCRATIC!

Misodoctakleidist
24th April 2004, 14:22
I think it's funny how they describe communism as "all government" :lol:

Left-Right is more about the relationship between the government and companies than the "size" of the government.

I think political compass is pretty good, at least, the best political spectrum I've seen.

BuyOurEverything
24th April 2004, 16:39
At the top, it says Forms of Economic Orginization, not Forms of Government Orginization or control. Also, if you go to the site that picture is hosted, you will find one other picture, documenting how a satanic (socialist) cult controls the world throught the Bilderburg Corporation, The United Nations, and Japan. It sort of gives a little context to the image DSCH posted

http://www.tliquest.net/truth/

Professor Moneybags
24th April 2004, 16:47
Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2004, 04:39 PM
At the top, it says Forms of Economic Orginization, not Forms of Government Orginization or control. Also, if you go to the site that picture is hosted, you will find one other picture, documenting how a satanic (socialist) cult controls the world throught the Bilderburg Corporation, The United Nations, and Japan. It sort of gives a little context to the image DSCH posted

http://www.tliquest.net/truth/
The compass still true. Poisoning the well won't stop it being so.

Misodoctakleidist
24th April 2004, 16:53
If it's true then how is communism "all government?"

BuyOurEverything
24th April 2004, 17:03
At the top, it says Forms of Economic Orginization, not Forms of Government Orginization or control.

No compass that claims to classify economic arangements would put anarchism just to the right of laissez-faire capitalism. Even you must agree with that.

Funky Monk
24th April 2004, 20:11
What's the problem with that?

Left/Right has no relevance on this chart, just economic interventialism. Anarchy is slightly to the right of a laissez faire ideology in that it demonstrates slightly less government involvment in individual economic pursuit.

Don't Change Your Name
24th April 2004, 20:49
Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2004, 06:14 AM
...............Left-Wing.............................................. .........Vs....................................... ..............Right-Wing
http://www.tliquest.net/truth/political%20spectrum.jpg
According to that crappy view of "those who want to enslave that glorious anonymous entity i call individual on the left and the glorious freedom on the rgith even if i t means that 10% control your economical life and only give you freedom if you agree with them", where do i stand?

Osman Ghazi
24th April 2004, 21:05
Anarchy is slightly to the right of a laissez faire ideology in that it demonstrates slightly less government involvment in individual economic pursuit.

What? Anarchy as a political system has the same outcome as communism. After they have been achieved, the two would be almost identical.

DSCH
24th April 2004, 21:46
Originally posted by Osman [email protected] 24 2004, 09:05 PM

Anarchy is slightly to the right of a laissez faire ideology in that it demonstrates slightly less government involvment in individual economic pursuit.

What? Anarchy as a political system has the same outcome as communism. After they have been achieved, the two would be almost identical.
That's like saying that the end goal of Nazism is anarchy... :rolleyes:

Marxism is the opposite of anarchy.

toastedmonkey
24th April 2004, 21:54
The political compass is crap

Don't Change Your Name
24th April 2004, 23:43
Originally posted by DSCH+Apr 24 2004, 09:46 PM--> (DSCH @ Apr 24 2004, 09:46 PM)
Osman [email protected] 24 2004, 09:05 PM

Anarchy is slightly to the right of a laissez faire ideology in that it demonstrates slightly less government involvment in individual economic pursuit.

What? Anarchy as a political system has the same outcome as communism. After they have been achieved, the two would be almost identical.
That's like saying that the end goal of Nazism is anarchy... :rolleyes:

Marxism is the opposite of anarchy. [/b]
Ignorant.

The classical "anarchism vs. leninism" discussion is based on the role of the state on such a revolution. You need to learn a bit more about history and the meaning of terms like "marxism", "communism", "anarchism", "nazism", "class struggle", "leninism", "anarcho-capitalism", "First International and the Marx - Bakunin conflict/discussion".

typical capitalist idiocy. Inform yourself about such things before arguing about something you dont understand. Maybe you should stop guiding yourself by every single thing you hear from other "individualists freedom-loving capitalists".

Here's are some nice quotes tthat i have here that might help you:

Frederick Engels:

"In reality, however, the state is nothing but a machine for the oppression of one class by another..."

Rudolf Rocker:

"As long as a possessing and a non-possessing group of human beings face one another in enmity within society, the state will be indispensable to the possessing minority for the protection of its privileges."

and:

"As long as within society a possessing and a non-possessing group of human beings face one another in enmity, the state will be indispensable to the possessing minority for the protection of its privileges."

Lenin:

"So long as the state exists there is no freedom. When there is freedom, there will be no state."

Mikhail Bakunin:

"I am not a Communist because Communism unites all forces of society in the state and becomes absorbed in it; because it inevitably leads to the concentration of all property in the hands of the state, while I seek the abolition of the state*the complete elimination of the principle of authority and governmental guardianship, which under the pretence of making men moral and civilising them, has up to now always enslaved, oppressed, exploited and ruined them."

DSCH
25th April 2004, 00:20
So why do Communists set up Communist governments which are the opposite of anarchy?

Don't Change Your Name
25th April 2004, 00:36
Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 12:20 AM
So why do Communists set up Communist goverments which are the opposite of anarchy?
That's part of the leninist tradition of the "vanguard party" which takes power in "the name of the workers" because it seems that according to them it is "necessary" because "masses are stupid" and they "aren't fit to govern", so we should "install a dictatorship in their name" even if that unintentionally generates another class system (proletariate + those who controls the economy in their name), a dangerous thing. Also they claim that "anarchy" is an "utopia" or "a leftist petit-bourgeois tendency" and that we should stop capitalism before it's process it's over (which is something that can be far from happening), even if it means stopping the best things that capitalism has (which aren't many but that can become very useful, such as some technological improvements that can be necessary in the future and that can come out of capitalist competition).

DSCH
25th April 2004, 00:48
I think your Bakhunin quote says it all and proves my point. Anarchism and Communism are polar and exact opposites.

Invader Zim
25th April 2004, 00:59
Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2004, 09:54 PM
The political compass is crap
And you being a political expert and scientist have sat down and formulated a better method of calculating and displaying the political orientation of the site's viewers, in an easy to use syetm, with questions that can be understood by nearly everyone?

No? then shut the fuck up.

;)

Invader Zim
25th April 2004, 01:05
Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 12:48 AM
I think your Bakhunin quote says it all and proves my point. Anarchism and Communism are polar and exact opposites.
I think your a dumbass, both statements which are based on opinion, differance, I'm right!

Sorry but economically anarchism and communism are not polar opposites. Both suggest that economic control is in the hands of the people, rather than the elite few.

Politically, theoretical communism is an absolute democracy, and is very libertarian, rather than authoritarian. Anarchism is the extream of on the libertarian side of the scale, the polar opposite of authoritarianism.

Face it your wrong.

DSCH
25th April 2004, 01:21
Sorry but economically anarchism and communism are not polar opposites. Both suggest that economic control is in the hands of the people, rather than the elite few.
Obviously you've never actually read Karl Marx. Marx argues that the Bolshevik political elite (the privileged few) should control the Proletariat and Bourgeois (the masses).


Politically, theoretical communism is an absolute democracy
This is incorrect. What if the people vote for capital and capitalism?


and is very libertarian, rather than authoritarian.
Also incorrect. There has never been nor can there ever be a "libertarian" Communist society.

Monty Cantsin
25th April 2004, 01:25
Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 12:48 AM
I think your Bakhunin quote says it all and proves my point. Anarchism and Communism are polar and exact opposites.
But only on the question of the state, they both want a similar outcome just using a different method.

DSCH
25th April 2004, 01:37
Originally posted by euripidies+Apr 25 2004, 01:25 AM--> (euripidies @ Apr 25 2004, 01:25 AM)
[email protected] 25 2004, 12:48 AM
I think your Bakhunin quote says it all and proves my point. Anarchism and Communism are polar and exact opposites.
But only on the question of the state, they both want a similar outcome just using a different method. [/b]
Right. Anarchists want anarchism through anarchism. Communists want anarchism through authoritarianism.

Essential Insignificance
25th April 2004, 02:01
Well I wouldn't really call Australia a 'democracy'. More like a muted version that is self serving to two very dominant political parties. The Government is very large, though, and has socialist leanings in the form of income distribution (like most governments).

Neither would I. The two political parties have an arranged "democratic" dictatorship.

Socialist leanings…are you serious…there’s nothing socialist about Australia.



Second, Australia is DEMOCRATIC!

Well thats all going to depend on your characterization of democracy…something informs me that ours are nothing alike.

Even so, it stated "Socialist Democratic"…surely you don’t deem this.

Misodoctakleidist
25th April 2004, 08:49
Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 01:21 AM
Obviously you've never actually read Karl Marx. Marx argues that the Bolshevik political elite (the privileged few) should control the Proletariat and Bourgeois (the masses).
Obviously you've never actually read Karl Marx, he never mentioned the word bolshevik becuase it didn't exist untill after he died. The word you should have used is 'vanguard,' Marx never talked about the vanguard either, it was an idea Lenin took from Blanqui.

Marx wrote very little about how communism would be achieved, the bolshevik style dictatorship of the proletariat was a Leninist invention, when marx used the phrase 'dictatorshiip of the proletariat' he used it to refer class dictatorship not political dictatorship.


This is incorrect. What if the people vote for capital and capitalism? That's like saying, 'what if people vote for slavery?'

And who's going to stop the people? There's no state.


Also incorrect. There has never been nor can there ever be a "libertarian" Communist society.

Why not? I would have thought that a stateless society was pretty libertarian.


Right. Anarchists want anarchism through anarchism. Communists want anarchism through authoritarianism.

Not all communists are Leninists.

toastedmonkey
25th April 2004, 10:41
Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 01:59 AM
And you being a political expert and scientist have sat down and formulated a better method of calculating and displaying the political orientation of the site's viewers, in an easy to use syetm, with questions that can be understood by nearly everyone?

No? then shut the fuck up.

;)
No i havent

but the tests are easily minipulated and you always get the retards boasting about their scores i.e. MidwifeMaruder

DSCH
25th April 2004, 17:24
Obviously you've never actually read Karl Marx, he never mentioned the word bolshevik becuase it didn't exist untill after he died. The word you should have used is 'vanguard,' Marx never talked about the vanguard either, it was an idea Lenin took from Blanqui.

Marx wrote very little about how communism would be achieved, the bolshevik style dictatorship of the proletariat was a Leninist invention, when marx used the phrase 'dictatorshiip of the proletariat' he used it to refer class dictatorship not political dictatorship.
It doesn't matter what label you use or what you call it. There will always be a political elite and priveleged few in a Marxist state.


That's like saying, 'what if people vote for slavery?'

And who's going to stop the people? There's no state.
Exactly.


Why not? I would have thought that a stateless society was pretty libertarian.
Libertarians are not anarchists. They approach anarchism but never actually achieve it.

Invader Zim
25th April 2004, 18:13
Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 01:21 AM

Sorry but economically anarchism and communism are not polar opposites. Both suggest that economic control is in the hands of the people, rather than the elite few.
Obviously you've never actually read Karl Marx. Marx argues that the Bolshevik political elite (the privileged few) should control the Proletariat and Bourgeois (the masses).


Politically, theoretical communism is an absolute democracy
This is incorrect. What if the people vote for capital and capitalism?


and is very libertarian, rather than authoritarian.
Also incorrect. There has never been nor can there ever be a "libertarian" Communist society.
Obviously you've never actually read Karl Marx.

Or more accuratly you have not, marx on many occasions stated that communism would be a classless society, so this is crap: -

"Marx argues that the Bolshevik political elite (the privileged few) should control the Proletariat and Bourgeois (the masses)."

Not to mention that the idea of a Bolshevik political party came from Lenin's theses on party organization in 1903.

What if the people vote for capital and capitalism?

If a popular revolution occurs then the entire country will have rised up and overthrown the capitalist system and put in its place a communist system. So why in the name of god would they vote it out of power? The exact same excuse could be used of modern democracy.

There has never been nor can there ever be a "libertarian" Communist society.

and how do you come to that sorry conclusion? Dispite there are many communist parties that are very libertarian.


go away before ome of the really knowledgable Marxists turn up and make a complete mockery of you.

NYC4Ever
25th April 2004, 18:33
DSCH,
I was wondering what political spectrum would you put yourself under? Are you libertarian? I mean thats as much a dream as communism is, though I agree with libertarianism much more than communism and believe that socialism is a complete authoritarain control as it exists right now.

Invader Zim
25th April 2004, 18:45
Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 06:33 PM
DSCH,
I was wondering what political spectrum would you put yourself under? Are you libertarian? I mean thats as much a dream as communism is, though I agree with libertarianism much more than communism and believe that socialism is a complete authoritarain control as it exists right now.
I bet he's a loser republican with his brains in his jock strap.

NYC4Ever
25th April 2004, 19:31
Well I agree with that loser republican, actually. Anarchism is a total opposite with communism and I do not know why the anarchist symbol is next to a pic of Che Guevara. Libertarianism is one of many utopian dreams of Anarchism. You guys have your Stalins,Maos, and Castros while we have our Nixons, Bushes and Reagans trying to attempt to end a two party system. We both do not agree with everything that these people did with regards to providing a cappie or commie society. But I respect America more with regards to how much it certainly is free compared to the horrible attempts at communism or any authortarian socialism country out there. You guys think in such collectivst thinking that everything and anything is cappie and cappie only. We have Reganites, Bushanauts as well as Libertarians who believe in enviromentalism and a stateless society. But thats as much a dream as real communsim is. When theres communist or socialist intervention these administrations stay in power, much like the attempts at a stateless communist one keeps getting interupted because of intervention. So the people stay in power. It usually always ends up in an authoritatian socialism stance or compromise.

Don't Change Your Name
25th April 2004, 21:22
Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 12:48 AM
I think your Bakhunin quote says it all and proves my point. Anarchism and Communism are polar and exact opposites.
Nope actually Bakunin wanted to make a difference between himself and Marxists, because he recognized that the "Communist" idea of "the dictatorship of the proletariat that uses the state to overhtrow the bourgeoisie but then that state withers away" was just going to be a "dictatorship OVER the proletariate".


This is incorrect. What if the people vote for capital and capitalism?

You can't vote for capital and capitalism because the state won't exist then. Capitalism will be seen in the same way we see slavery now. Only a few people will try to bring back the "good old times" and they will probably be given some stuff so that they can have their ultra-individualistic capitalist utopia where they can enslave people. Only that then nobody will want to be "hired" by them.


Also incorrect. There has never been nor can there ever be a "libertarian" Communist society.

Actually the term "libertarianism" was used both for Anarchism and those minarchist capitalists that exist nowadays, who stole the title. In fact people who doesn't live in yanquiland and are Anarchists (NOT anarcho-capitalists) call themselves "libertarians".
And libertarian is usually put as the opposite of authoritarian.


Anarchism is a total opposite with communism

Anarchism IS Communism. Don't let the popular view of "Communist Cuba", or those Leninists fool you.

synthesis
25th April 2004, 22:05
DSCH, there are other alternatives. Read this.

http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=12&t=15437

MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr
25th April 2004, 22:10
Why is it everyone insists on bashing everything good in the world here? :hammer: :castro: :cuba: It would be nice if you didn't use the right-wingers as a convienient opportunity to discredit the more authoritarian members here.

DSCH
25th April 2004, 22:48
Bakhunin himself says Communism is authoritarian and fascistic. Read the quote again. Then read it again. And then read it again. If you read it 100 times over you might be able to comprehend it, with a miracle and God willing.

NYC4Ever
25th April 2004, 23:30
I agree with DSCH. No way is communism anarchy or free will.

Xvall
26th April 2004, 01:53
I'm glad you had the decency to bash down all our beliefs with a poorly scanned piece of paper that was probably written by McCarthy.

Misodoctakleidist
26th April 2004, 15:59
Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 10:48 PM
Bakhunin himself says Communism is authoritarian and fascistic. Read the quote again. Then read it again. And then read it again. If you read it 100 times over you might be able to comprehend it, with a miracle and God willing.
I seriously doubt that bakunin used the word "fascistic" for two reasons;

1) It isn't a word.

2) Fascism wasn't invented untill after his death.

You have a tendancy of attributing false quote to people, you're worse than Lenin.

cubist
26th April 2004, 17:17
letr me get this straight Australia are democratic socialists and fascists are communists?

i didn't realise racism was socialist, sorry to any aussies that aren't racist your country has ruined your credibility.


and let me undrestand that becuase

communism and anarchism obtain freedom of market and welfare through different means that they are opposite on the political scale?

DSCH why? god willing i will understand? god doesn't exist kid, so he can't will shit

DSCH
26th April 2004, 17:27
Socialism is just a euphamism for racism. E.g. Nazism is left-wing Socialism.

Communism is fascism. The only difference between Nazis and Communists is that while Nazis come to power democratically, Communists advocate violent and bloodthirsty revolution.

Anarchism is the extreme right-wing.

Shredder
26th April 2004, 18:13
...

Are you serious?

Ban DSCH for trolling.

Fascism is diametrically opposed to communism. Fascism arose in Germany basically as the right-wing trying to defeat communism at all costs. But the workers' movement was so strong that the Nazis went so far as to tack on the word 'socialism.' The ideology of Fascism bears everything in common with capitalism and nothing in common with communism. When I think of Fascism's ideology, I think of heirarchy; have respect for those above you; some people are just naturally superior. Fascism was in favor of bourgeoise property relations. So it is capitalism. If you need more proof, read a bit on the matter. Hitler was fanatically opposed to communism.

cubist
26th April 2004, 18:21
ok DSCH,


rather than using short highly literal phrase to sumerise your ops

please aexplain how fascism is left wing communism, i am most intrigued,

though shredder, i disagree that fascism is closer to capiatlism, as hitler didn't operate a very capitalist economy, and hitler is the original fascist,

the difference is

hitler wants equality for white blondes with blue eyes the arian race, which meant he would murder people who weren't of that nature, communism however closely it may have been represented at first has never occured in history and certainly nevr attempted to insatll anything that hitler did, yes hitler was socially minded if you were german, but the social joy germany enjoyed between 1932 and 1936 wasn't what communism aims to provide, and it didn't last did it, he soon turned it into fear where he rewarded people who gave him information and "grassed up "possible spies and what not and he murdered anyone they accused of being opposite though in many ways he was similar to stalin hitler never was and never will be a communist no matter how distorted you make your ideals.
next hitler wasn't a racist i suppose?

Misodoctakleidist
26th April 2004, 18:36
mussolini was the origional fascist

NYC4Ever
26th April 2004, 19:51
Nazi means national socialism. I hate the way people are making it seem like it wasn't socialism. It was all the capitalism you want as long as it benefits the state politically and militarily. Stalinism and Maoism is very fascist. The only reason why people called it right wing was because they objected to homosexuals, people of color and disregarded individual rights. I hate it when they refer it on over to our country like its similar. Stalin and Hitler were enemies but still of the same ilk.
Any state that assumes control of the buisnesses is socialism and the Nazis did this very well. This is why we try and stay clear out of any government intervention. They wanted socialist control and gave it to anyone of the "Aryan" race. The only difference was it was a regime of pure hate.

Invader Zim
26th April 2004, 20:14
Myth: Hitler was a leftist.

Fact: Nearly all of Hitler's beliefs placed him on the far right.



Summary

Many conservatives accuse Hitler of being a leftist, on the grounds that his party was named "National Socialist." But socialism requires worker ownership and control of the means of production. In Nazi Germany, private capitalist individuals owned the means of production, and they in turn were frequently controlled by the Nazi party and state. True socialism does not advocate such economic dictatorship -- it can only be democratic. Hitler's other political beliefs place him almost always on the far right. He advocated racism over racial tolerance, eugenics over freedom of reproduction, merit over equality, competition over cooperation, power politics and militarism over pacifism, dictatorship over democracy, capitalism over Marxism, realism over idealism, nationalism over internationalism, exclusiveness over inclusiveness, common sense over theory or science, pragmatism over principle, and even held friendly relations with the Church, even though he was an atheist.



Argument

To most people, Hitler's beliefs belong to the extreme far right. For example, most conservatives believe in patriotism and a strong military; carry these beliefs far enough, and you arrive at Hitler's warring nationalism. This association has long been something of an embarrassment to the far right. To deflect such criticism, conservatives have recently launched a counter-attack, claiming that Hitler was a socialist, and therefore belongs to the political left, not the right.

The primary basis for this claim is that Hitler was a National Socialist. The word "National" evokes the state, and the word "Socialist" openly identifies itself as such.

However, there is no academic controversy over the status of this term: it was a misnomer. Misnomers are quite common in the history of political labels. Examples include the German Democratic Republic (which was neither) and Vladimir Zhirinovsky's "Liberal Democrat" party (which was also neither). The true question is not whether Hitler called his party "socialist," but whether or not it actually was.

In fact, socialism has never been tried at the national level anywhere in the world. This may surprise some people -- after all, wasn't the Soviet Union socialist? The answer is no. Many nations and political parties have called themselves "socialist," but none have actually tried socialism. To understand why, we should revisit a few basic political terms.

Perhaps the primary concern of any political ideology is who gets to own and control the means the production. This includes factories, farmlands, machinery, etc. Generally there have been three approaches to this question. The first was aristocracy, in which a ruling elite owned the land and productive wealth, and peasants and serfs had to obey their orders in return for their livelihood. The second is capitalism, which has disbanded the ruling elite and allows a much broader range of private individuals to own the means of production. However, this ownership is limited to those who can afford to buy productive wealth; nearly all workers are excluded. The third (and untried) approach is socialism, where everyone owns and controls the means of production, by means of the vote. As you can see, there is a spectrum here, ranging from a few people owning productive wealth at one end, to everyone owning it at the other.

Socialism has been proposed in many forms. The most common is social democracy, where workers vote for their supervisors, as well as their industry representatives to regional or national congresses. Another proposed form is anarcho-socialism, where workers own companies that would operate on a free market, without any central government at all. As you can see, a central planning committee is hardly a necessary feature of socialism. The primary feature is worker ownership of production.

The Soviet Union failed to qualify as socialist because it was a dictatorship over workers -- that is, a type of aristocracy, with a ruling elite in Moscow calling all the shots. Workers cannot own or control anything under a totalitarian government. In variants of socialism that call for a central government, that government is always a strong or even direct democracy… never a dictatorship. It doesn't matter if the dictator claims to be carrying out the will of the people, or calls himself a "socialist" or a "democrat." If the people themselves are not in control, then the system is, by definition, non-democratic and non-socialist.

And what of Nazi Germany? The idea that workers controlled the means of production in Nazi Germany is a bitter joke. It was actually a combination of aristocracy and capitalism. Technically, private businessmen owned and controlled the means of production. The Nazi "Charter of Labor" gave employers complete power over their workers. It established the employer as the "leader of the enterprise," and read: "The leader of the enterprise makes the decisions for the employees and laborers in all matters concerning the enterprise." (1)

The employer, however, was subject to the frequent orders of the ruling Nazi elite. After the Nazis took power in 1933, they quickly established a highly controlled war economy under the direction of Dr. Hjalmar Schacht. Like all war economies, it boomed, making Germany the second nation to recover fully from the Great Depression, in 1936. (The first nation was Sweden, in 1934. Following Keynesian-like policies, the Swedish government spent its way out of the Depression, proving that state economic policies can be successful without resorting to dictatorship or war.)

Prior to the Nazi seizure of power in 1933, worker protests had spread all across Germany in response to the Great Depression. During his drive to power, Hitler exploited this social unrest by promising workers to strengthen their labor unions and increase their standard of living. But these were empty promises; privately, he was reassuring wealthy German businessmen that he would crack down on labor once he achieved power. Historian William Shirer describes the Nazi's dual strategy:

"The party had to play both sides of the tracks. It had to allow [Nazi officials] Strasser, Goebbels and the crank Feder to beguile the masses with the cry that the National Socialists were truly 'socialists' and against the money barons. On the other hand, money to keep the party going had to be wheedled out of those who had an ample supply of it." (2)
Once in power, Hitler showed his true colors by promptly breaking all his promises to workers. The Nazis abolished trade unions, collective bargaining and the right to strike. An organization called the "Labor Front" replaced the old trade unions, but it was an instrument of the Nazi party and did not represent workers. According to the law that created it, "Its task is to see that every individual should be able… to perform the maximum of work." Workers would indeed greatly boost their productivity under Nazi rule. But they also became exploited. Between 1932 and 1936, workers wages fell, from 20.4 to 19.5 cents an hour for skilled labor, and from 16.1 to 13 cents an hour for unskilled labor. (3) Yet workers did not protest. This was partly because the Nazis had restored order to the economy, but an even bigger reason was that the Nazis would have cracked down on any protest.

There was no part of Nazism, therefore, that even remotely resembled socialism. But what about the political nature of Nazism in general? Did it belong to the left, or to the right? Let's take a closer look:

The politics of Nazism

The political right is popularly associated with the following principles. Of course, it goes without saying that these are generalizations, and not every person on the far right believes in every principle, or disbelieves its opposite. Most people's political beliefs are complex, and cannot be neatly pigeonholed. This is as true of Hitler as anyone. But since the far right is trying peg Hitler as a leftist, it's worth reviewing the tenets popularly associated with the right. These include:
Individualism over collectivism.
Racism or racial segregation over racial tolerance.
Eugenics over freedom of reproduction.
Merit over equality.
Competition over cooperation.
Power politics and militarism over pacifism.
One-person rule or self-rule over democracy.
Capitalism over Marxism.
Realism over idealism.
Nationalism over internationalism.
Exclusiveness over inclusiveness.
Meat-eating over vegetarianism.
Gun ownership over gun control
Common sense over theory or science.
Pragmatism over principle.
Religion over secularism.
Let's review these spectrums one by one, and see where Hitler stood in his own words. Ultimately, Hitler's views are not monolithically conservative -- on a few issues, his views are complex and difficult to label. But as you will see, the vast majority of them belong on the far right:

Individualism over collectivism.

Many conservatives argue that Hitler was a leftist because he subjugated the individual to the state. However, this characterization is wrong, for several reasons.

The first error is in assuming that this is exclusively a liberal trait. Actually, U.S. conservatives take considerable pride in being patriotic Americans, and they deeply honor those who have sacrificed their lives for their country. The Marine Corps is a classic example: as every Marine knows, all sense of individuality is obliterated in the Marines Corps, and one is subject first, foremost and always to the group.

The second error is forgetting that all human beings subscribe to individualism and collectivism. If you believe that you are personally responsible for taking care of yourself, you are an individualist. If you freely belong and contribute to any group -- say, an employing business, church, club, family, nation, or cause -- then you are a collectivist as well. Neither of these traits makes a person inherently "liberal" or "conservative," and to claim that you are an "evil socialist" because you champion a particular group is not a serious argument.

Political scientists therefore do not label people "liberal" or "conservative" on the basis of their individualism or collectivism. Much more important is how they approach their individualism and collectivism. What groups does a person belong to? How is power distributed in the group? Does it practice one-person rule, minority rule, majority rule, or self-rule? Liberals believe in majority rule. Hitler practiced one-person rule. Thus, there is no comparison.

And on that score, conservatives might feel that they are off the hook, too, because they claim to prefer self-rule to one-person rule. But their actions say otherwise. Many of the institutions that conservatives favor are really quite dictatorial: the military, the church, the patriarchal family, the business firm.

Hitler himself downplayed all groups except for the state, which he raised to supreme significance in his writings. However, he did not identify the state as most people do, as a random collection of people in artificially drawn borders. Instead, he identified the German state as its racially pure stock of German or Aryan blood. In Mein Kampf, Hitler freely and interchangeably used the terms "Aryan race," "German culture" and "folkish state." To him they were synonyms, as the quotes below show. There were citizens inside Germany (like Jews) who were not part of Hitler's state, while there were Germans outside Germany (for example, in Austria) who were. But the main point is that Hitler's political philosophy was not really based on "statism" as we know it today. It was actually based on racism -- again, a subject that hits uncomfortably closer to home for conservatives, not liberals.

As Hitler himself wrote:
"The main plank in the Nationalist Socialist program is to abolish the liberalistic concept of the individual and the Marxist concept of humanity and to substitute for them the folk community, rooted in the soil and bound together by the bond of its common blood." (4)

"The state is a means to an end. Its end lies in the preservation and advancement of a community of physically and psychically homogenous creatures. This preservation itself comprises first of all existence as a race… Thus, the highest purpose of a folkish state is concern for the preservation of those original racial elements which bestow culture and create the beauty and dignity of a higher mankind. We, as Aryans, can conceive of the state only as the living organism of a nationality which… assures the preservation of this nationality…" (5)

"The German Reich as a state must embrace all Germans and has the task, not only of assembling and preserving the most valuable stocks of basic racial elements in this people, but slowly and surely of raising them to a dominant position." (6)
And it was in the service of this racial state that Hitler encourage individuals to sacrifice themselves:
"In [the Aryan], the instinct for self-preservation has reached its noblest form, since he willingly subordinates his own ego to the life of the community and, if the hour demands it, even sacrifices it." (7)

"This state of mind, which subordinates the interests of the ego to the conservation of the community, is really the first premise for every truly human culture." (8)
Racism or racial segregation over racial tolerance.
"All the human culture, all the results of art, science, and technology that we see before us today, are almost exclusively the creative product of the Aryan." (9)

"Aryan races -- often absurdly small numerically -- subject foreign peoples, and then… develop the intellectual and organizational capacities dormant within them." (10)

"If beginning today all further Aryan influence on Japan should stop… Japan's present rise in science and technology might continue for a short time; but even in a few years the well would dry up… the present culture would freeze and sink back into the slumber from which it awakened seven decades ago by the wave of Aryan culture." (11)

"Every racial crossing leads inevitably sooner or later to the decline of the hybrid product…" (12)

"It is the function above all of the Germanic states first and foremost to call a fundamental halt to any further bastardization." (13)

"What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and reproduction of our race and our people, the sustenance of our children and the purity of our blood…" (14)
Eugenics over freedom of reproduction
"The folkish philosophy of life must succeed in bringing about that nobler age in which men no longer are concerned with breeding dogs, horses, and cats, but in elevating man himself…" (15)

"The folkish state must make up for what everyone else today has neglected in this field. It must set race in the center of all life. It must take care to keep it pure… It must see to it that only the healthy beget children; that there is only one disgrace: despite one's own sickness and deficiencies, to bring children into the world, and one highest honor: to renounce doing so. And conversely it must be considered reprehensible: to withhold healthy children from the nation. Here the state… must put the most modern medical means in the service of this knowledge. It must declare unfit for propagation all who are in any way visibly sick or who have inherited a disease and therefore pass it on…" (16)
Merit over equality.
"The best state constitution and state form is that which, with the most unquestioned certainty, raises the best minds in the national community to leading position and leading influence. But as in economic life, the able men cannot be appointed from above, but must struggle through for themselves…" (17)

"It must not be lamented if so many men set out on the road to arrive at the same goal: the most powerful and swiftest will in this way be recognized, and will be the victor." (p. 512.)
Competition over cooperation.
"Those who want to live, let them fight, and those who do not want to fight in this world of eternal struggle do not deserve to live." (18)

"It must never be forgotten that nothing that is really great in this world has ever been achieved by coalitions, but that it has always been the success of a single victor. Coalition successes bear by the very nature of their origin the germ of future crumbling, in fact of the loss of what has already been achieved. Great, truly world-shaking revolutions of a spiritual nature are not even conceivable and realizable except as the titanic struggles of individual formations, never as enterprises of coalitions." (19)

"The idea of struggle is old as life itself, for life is only preserved because other living things perish through struggle… In this struggle, the stronger, the more able, win, while the less able, the weak, lose. Struggle is the father of all things… It is not by the principles of humanity that man lives or is able to preserve himself in the animal world, but solely by means of the most brutal struggle… If you do not fight for life, then life will never be won." (20)
Power politics and militarism over pacifism.

Allan Bullock, probably the world's greatest Hitler historian, sums up Hitler's political method in one sentence:
"Stripped of their romantic trimmings, all Hitler's ideas can be reduced to a simple claim for power which recognizes only one relationship, that of domination, and only one argument, that of force." (21)
The following quotes by Hitler portray his rather stunning contempt for pacifism:
"If the German people in its historic development had possessed that herd unity [defined here by Hitler as racial solidarity] which other peoples enjoyed, the German Reich today would doubtless be mistress of the globe. World history would have taken a different course, and no one can distinguish whether in this way we would not have obtained what so many blinded pacifists today hope to gain by begging, whining and whimpering: a peace, supported not by the palm branches of tearful, pacifist female mourners, but based on the victorious sword of a master people, putting the world into the service of a higher culture." (22)

"We must clearly recognize the fact that the recovery of the lost territories is not won through solemn appeals to the Lord or through pious hopes in a League of Nations, but only by force of arms." (23)

"In actual fact the pacifistic-humane idea is perfectly all right perhaps when the highest type of man has previously conquered and subjected the world to an extent that makes him the sole ruler of this earth… Therefore, first struggle and then perhaps pacifism." (24)
One-person rule or self-rule over democracy.
"The young [Nazi] movement is in its nature and inner organization anti-parliamentarian; that is, it rejects… a principle of majority rule in which the leader is degraded to the level of mere executant of other people's wills and opinion." (25)

"The [Nazi party] should not become a constable of public opinion, but must dominate it. It must not become a servant of the masses, but their master!" (26)

"By rejecting the authority of the individual and replacing it by the numbers of some momentary mob, the parliamentary principle of majority rule sins against the basic aristocratic principle of Nature…" (27)

"For there is one thing we must never forget… the majority can never replace the man. And no more than a hundred empty heads make one wise man will an heroic decision arise from a hundred cowards." (28)

"There must be no majority decisions, but only responsible persons, and the word 'council' must be restored to its original meaning. Surely every man will have advisers by his side, but the decision will be made by one man." (29)

"When I recognized the Jew as the leader of the Social Democracy, the scales dropped from my eyes." (30)

"The Western democracy of today is the forerunner of Marxism…" (31)

"Only a knowledge of the Jews provides the key with which to comprehend the inner, and consequently real, aims of Social Democracy." (32)
Capitalism over Marxism.

Bullock writes of Hitler's views on Marxism:
"While Hitler's attitude towards liberalism was one of contempt, towards Marxism he showed an implacable hostility… Ignoring the profound differences between Communism and Social Democracy in practice and the bitter hostility between the rival working class parties, he saw in their common ideology the embodiment of all that he detested -- mass democracy and a leveling egalitarianism as opposed to the authoritarian state and the rule of an elite; equality and friendship among peoples as opposed to racial inequality and the domination of the strong; class solidarity versus national unity; internationalism versus nationalism." (33)
As Hitler himself would write:
"The German state is gravely attacked by Marxism." (34)

"In the years 1913 and 1914, I… expressed the conviction that the question of the future of the German nation was the question of destroying Marxism." (35)

"In the economic sphere Communism is analogous to democracy in the political sphere." (36)

"The Marxists will march with democracy until they succeed in indirectly obtaining for their criminal aims the support of even the national intellectual world, destined by them for extinction." (37)

"Marxism itself systematically plans to hand the world over to the Jews." (38)

"The Jewish doctrine of Marxism rejects the aristocratic principle of Nature and replaces the eternal privilege of power and strength by the mass of numbers and their dead weight." (39)
Realism over idealism.

Hitler was hardly an "idealist" in the sense that political scientists use the term. The standard definition of an idealist is someone who believes that cooperation and peaceful coexistence can occur among peoples. A realist, however, is someone who sees the world as an unstable and dangerous place, and prepares for war, if not to deter it, then to survive it. It goes without saying that Hitler was one of the greatest realists of all time. Nonetheless, Hitler had his own twisted utopia, which he described:
"We are not simple enough, either, to believe that it could ever be possible to bring about a perfect era. But this relieves no one of the obligation to combat recognized errors, to overcome weaknesses, and strive for the ideal. Harsh reality of its own accord will create only too many limitations. For that very reason, however, man must try to serve the ultimate goal, and failures must not deter him, any more than he can abandon a system of justice merely because mistakes creep into it…" (40)

"The same boy who feels like throwing up when he hears the tirades of a pacifist 'idealist' is ready to give up his life for the ideal of his nationality." (41)
Nationalism over internationalism.
"The nationalization of our masses will succeed only when… their international poisoners are exterminated." (42)

"The severest obstacle to the present-day worker's approach to the national community lies not in the defense of his class interests, but in his international leadership and attitude which are hostile to the people and the fatherland." (43)

"Thus, the reservoir from which the young [Nazi] movement must gather its supporters will primarily be the masses of our workers. Its work will be to tear these away from the international delusion… and lead them to the national community…" (44)
Exclusiveness over inclusiveness.
"Thus men without exception wander about in the garden of Nature; they imagine that they know practically everything and yet with few exceptions pass blindly by one of the most patent principles of Nature: the inner segregation of the species of all living beings on earth." (45)

"The greatness of every mighty organization embodying an idea in this world lies in the religious fanaticism and intolerance with which, fanatically convinced of its own right, it intolerantly imposes its will against all others." (46)
Meat-eating over vegetarianism.

It may seem ridiculous to include this issue in a review of Hitler's politics, but, believe it or not, conservatives on the Internet frequently equate Hitler's vegetarianism with the vegetarianism practised by liberals concerned about the environment and the ethical treatment of animals.

Hitler's vegetarianism had nothing to do with his political beliefs. He became a vegetarian shortly after the death of his girlfriend and half-niece, Geli Raubal. Their relationship was a stormy one, and it ended in her apparent suicide. There were rumors that Hitler had arranged her murder, but Hitler would remain deeply distraught over her loss for the rest of his life. As one historian writes:
"Curiously, shortly after her death, Hitler looked with disdain on a piece of ham being served during breakfast and refused to eat it, saying it was like eating a corpse. From that moment on, he refused to eat meat." (47)
Hitler's vegetarianism, then, was no more than a phobia, triggered by an association with his niece's death.

Gun ownership over gun control

Perhaps one of the pro-gun lobby's favorite arguments is that if German citizens had had the right to keep and bear arms, Hitler would have never been able to tyrannize the country. And to this effect, pro-gun advocates often quote the following:
"1935 will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future." - Adolf Hitler
However, this quote is almost certainly a fraud. There is no reputable record of him ever making it: neither at the Nuremberg rallies, nor in any of his weekly radio addresses. Furthermore, there was no reason for him to even make such a statement; for Germany already had strict gun control as a term of surrender in the Treaty of Versailles. The Allies had wanted to make Germany as impotent as possible, and one of the ways they did that was to disarm its citizenry. Only a handful of local authorities were allowed arms at all, and the few German citizens who did possess weapons were already subject to full gun registration. Seen in this light, the above quote makes no sense whatsoever.

The Firearms Policy Journal (January 1997) writes:
"The Nazi Party did not ride to power confiscating guns. They rode to power on the inability of the Weimar Republic to confiscate their guns. They did not consolidate their power confiscating guns either. There is no historical evidence that Nazis ever went door to door in Germany confiscating guns. The Germans had a fetish about paperwork and documented everything. These searches and confiscations would have been carefully recorded. If the documents are there, let them be presented as evidence."
On April 12, 1928, five years before Hitler seized power, Germany passed the Law on Firearms and Ammunition. This law substantially tightened restrictions on gun ownership in an effort to curb street violence between Nazis and Communists. The law was ineffectual and poorly enforced. It was not until March 18, 1938 -- five years after Hitler came to power -- that the Nazis passed the German Weapons Law, their first known change in the firearm code. And this law actually relaxed restrictions on citizen firearms.

Common sense over theory or science.

Hitler was notorious for his anti-intellectualism:
"The youthful brain should in general not be burdened with things ninety-five percent of which it cannot use and hence forgets again… In many cases, the material to be learned in the various subjects is so swollen that only a fraction of it remains in the head of the individual pupil, and only a fraction of this abundance can find application, while on the other hand it is not adequate for the man working and earning his living in a definite field." (48)

"Knowledge above the average can be crammed into the average man, but it remains dead, and in the last analysis sterile knowledge. The result is a man who may be a living dictionary but nevertheless falls down miserably in all special situations and decisive moments in life." (49)

"The folkish state must not adjust its entire educational work primarily to the inoculation of mere knowledge, but to the breeding of absolutely healthy bodies. The training of mental abilities is only secondary. And here again, first place must be taken by the development of character, especially the promotion of will-power and determination, combined with the training of joy in responsibility, and only in last place comes scientific schooling." (50)

"A people of scholars, if they are physically degenerate, weak-willed and cowardly pacifists, will not storm the heavens, indeed, they will not be able to safeguard their existence on this earth." (51)
Pragmatism over principle.
"The question of the movement's inner organization is one of expediency and not of principle." (52)
Religion over secularism.

Hitler's views on religion were complex. Although ostensibly an atheist, he considered himself a cultural Catholic, and frequently evoked God, the Creator and Providence in his writings. Throughout his life he would remain an envious admirer of the Christian Church and its power over the masses. Here is but one example:
"We can learn by the example of the Catholic Church. Though its doctrinal edifice… comes into collision with exact science and research, it is none the less unwilling to sacrifice so much as one little syllable of its dogmas. It has recognized quite correctly that its power of resistance does not lie in its lesser or greater adaptation to the scientific findings of the moment, which in reality are always fluctuating, but rather in rigidly holding to dogmas once established, for it is only such dogmas which lend to the whole body the character of faith. And so it stands today more firmly than ever." (53)
Hitler also saw a useful purpose for the Church:
"The great masses of people do not consist of philosophers; precisely for the masses, [religious] faith is often the sole foundation of a moral attitude… For the political man, the value of a religion must be estimated less by its deficiencies than by the virtue of a visibly better substitute. As long as this appears to be lacking, what is present can be demolished only by fools or criminals." (54)
Hitler thus advocated freedom of religious belief. Although he would later press churches into the service of Nazism, often at the point of a gun, Hitler did not attempt to impose a state religion or mandate the basic philosophical content of German religions. As long as they did not interfere with his program, he allowed them to continue fuctioning. And this policy was foreshadowed in his writings:
"For the political leader the religious doctrines and institutions of his people must always remain inviolable; or else he has no right to be in politics…" (55)

"Political parties have nothing to do with religious problems, as long as these are not alien to the nation, undermining the morals and ethics of the race; just as religion cannot be amalgamated with the scheming of political parties." (56)

"Worst of all, however, is the devastation wrought by the misuse of religious conviction for political ends." (57)

"Therefore, let every man be active, each in his own denomination if you please, and let every man take it as his first and most sacred duty to oppose anyone who in his activity by word or deed steps outside the confines of his religious community and tries to butt into the other." (58)
Hitler was raised a Catholic, even going to school for two years at the monastery at Lambauch, Austria. As late as 24 he still called himself a Catholic, but somewhere along the way he became an atheist. It is highly doubtful that this was an intellectual decision, as a reading of his disordered thoughts in Mein Kampf will attest. The decision was most likely a pragmatic one, based on power and personal ambition. Bullock reveals an interesting anecdote showing how these considerations worked on the young Hitler. After five years of eking out a miserable existence in Vienna and four years of war, Hitler walked into his first German Worker's Party meeting:
"'Under the dim light shed by a grimy gas-lamp I could see four people sitting around a table…' As Hitler frankly acknowledges, this very obscurity was an attraction. It was only in a party which, like himself, was beginning at the bottom that he had any prospect of playing a leading part and imposing his ideas. In the established parties there was no room for him, he would be a nobody." (59)
Hitler probably realized that a frustrated artist and pipe-dreamer like himself would have no chance of achieving power in the world-wide, 2000-year old Christian Church. It was most likely for this reason that he rejected Christianity and pursued a political life instead. Yet, curiously enough, he never renounced his membership in the Catholic Church, and the Church never excommunicated him. Nor did the Church place his Mein Kampf on the Index of Prohibited Books, in spite of its knowledge of his atrocities. Later the Church would come under intense criticism for its friendly and cooperative relationship with Hitler. A brief review of this history is instructive.

In 1933, the Catholic Center Party cast its large and decisive vote in favor of Hitler's Enabling Bill. This bill essentially gave Chancellor Hitler the sweeping dictatorial powers he was seeking. Historian Guenter Lewy describes a meeting between Hitler and the German Catholic authorities shortly afterwards:
"On 26 April 1933 Hitler had a conversation with Bishop Berning and Monsignor Steinmann [the Catholic leadership in Germany]. The subject was the common fight against liberalism, Socialism and Bolshevism, discussed in the friendliest terms. In the course of the conversation Hitler said that he was only doing to the Jews what the church had done to them over the past fifteen hundred years. The prelates did not contradict him." (60)
As anyone familiar with Christian history knows, the Church has always been a primary source of anti-Semitism. Hitler's anti-Semitism therefore found a receptive audience among Catholic authorities. The Church also had an intense fear and hatred of Russian communism, and Hitler's attack on Russia was the best that could have happened. The Jesuit Michael Serafin wrote: "It cannot be denied that [Pope] Pius XII's closest advisors for some time regarded Hitler's armoured divisions as the right hand of God." (61) As Pope Pius himself would say after Germany conquered Poland: "Let us end this war between brothers and unite our forces against the common enemy of atheism" -- Russia. (62)

Once Hitler assumed power, he signed a Concordat, or agreement, with the Catholic Church. Eugenio Pacelli (the man who would eventually become Pope Pius XII) was the Vatican diplomat who drew up the Concordat, and he considered it a triumph. In return for promises which Hitler increasingly broke, the Church dissolved all Catholic organizations in Germany, including the Catholic Center Party. Bishops were to take an oath of loyalty to the Nazi regime. Clergy were to see to the pastoral care of Germany's armed forces (regardless of what those armed forces did). (63)

The Concordat eliminated all Catholic resistance to Hitler; after this, the German bishops gave Hitler their full and unqualified support. A bishops' conference at Fulda, 1933, resulted in agreement with Hitler's case for extending Lebensraum, or German territory. (64) Bishop Bornewasser told a congregation of Catholic young people at Trier: "With our heads high and with firm steps we have entered the new Reich and are ready to serve it body and soul." (65) Vicar-General Steinman greeted each Berlin mass with the shout, "Heil Hitler!" (66)

Hitler, on the other hand, kept up his attack on the Church. Nazi bands stormed into the few remaining Catholic institutions, beat up Catholic youths and arrested Catholic officials. The Vatican was dismayed, but it did not protest. (67) In some instances, it was hard to tell if the Church supported its own persecution. Hitler muzzled the independent Catholic press (about 400 daily papers in 1933) and subordinated it to Goebbels' Ministry of Propaganda and Enlightenment. Yet soon the Catholic Press was doing more than what the Nazis required of it -- for example, coordinating their Nazi propaganda to prepare the people for the 1940 offensive against the West. (68) Throughout the war, the Catholic press would remain one of the Third Reich's best disseminators of propaganda.

Pacelli became the new Pope Pius XII in 1939, and he immediately improved relations with Hitler. He broke protocol by personally signing a letter in German to Hitler expressing warm hopes of friendly relations. Shortly afterwards, the Church celebrated Hitler's birthday by ringing bells, flying swastika flags from church towers and holding thanksgiving services for the Fuhrer. (69) Ringing church bells to celebrate and affirm the bishops' allegiance to the Reich would become quite common throughout the war; after the German army conquered France, the church bells rang for an entire week, and swastikas flew over the churches for ten days.

But perhaps the greatest failure of Pope Pius XII was his silence over the Holocaust, even though he knew it was in progress. Although there are many heroic stories of Catholics helping Jews survive the Holocaust, they do not include Pope Pius, the Holy See, or the German Catholic authorities. When a reporter asked Pius why he did not protest the liquidation of the Jews, the Pope answered, "Dear friend, do not forget that millions of Catholics are serving in the German armies. Am I to involve them in a conflict of conscience?" (70) As perhaps the world's greatest moral leader, he was charged with precisely that responsibility.

The history of Hitler and the Church reveals a relationship built on mutual distrust and philosophical rejection, but also shared goals, benefits, admiration, envy, friendliness, and ultimate alliance.

Return to Overview

Endnotes:

1. William Shirer, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1960), p. 263.

2. Ibid., p. 143.

3. Ibid., p. 264.

4. Hitler, quoted in Alan Bullock, Hitler: A Study in Tyranny, abridged edition, (New York: HarperCollins, 1971), p. 228.

5. Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, trans. by Ralph Manheim (Boston: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1962), pp. 393-4.

6. Ibid., p. 398.

7. Ibid., p. 297.

8. Ibid., p. 298.

9. Ibid., p. 290.

10. Ibid., pp. 291-2.

11. Ibid., p. 291.

12. Ibid., p. 401.

13. Ibid., p. 402.

14. Ibid., p. 214.

15. Ibid., p. 405.

16. Ibid., p. 404.

17. Ibid., p. 449.

18. Ibid., p. 289.

19. Ibid., p. 516-17.

20. Quoted in Bullock, pp. 11-12.

21. Ibid., p. 230.

22. Hitler, p. 396.

23. Ibid., p. 627.

24. Ibid., p. 288.

25. Ibid., p. 344.

26. Ibid., p. 465.

27. Ibid., p. 81.

28. Ibid., p. 82.

29. Ibid., p. 449.

30. Ibid., p. 60.

31. Ibid., p. 78

32. Ibid., p. 51.

33. Bullock, p. 228-9.

34. Hitler, p. 535.

35. Ibid., p. 155.

36. Quoted in Bullock, p. 102.

37. Hitler, p. 376.

38. Ibid., p. 382.

39. Ibid., p. 65.

40. Ibid., p. 437.

41. Ibid., p. 299.

42. Ibid., p. 338.

43. Ibid., p. 340.

44. Ibid., p. 340.

45. Ibid., p. 284.

46. Ibid., p. 351.

47. The History Place, "The Rise of Adolf Hitler: Success and a Suicide," http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/rise...ler/success.htm (http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/success.htm)

48. Hitler, p. 418.

49. Ibid., p. 429.

50. Ibid., p. 408.

51. Ibid., p. 408.

52. Ibid., p. 346.

53. Ibid., p. 459.

54. Ibid., p. 267.

55. Ibid., p. 116.

56. Ibid., p. 116.

57. Ibid., p. 268.

58. Ibid., p. 563.

59. Bullock, p. 35.

60. Guenter Lewy, The Catholic Church and Nazi Germany (London and New York) 1964, p. 50ff.

61. Friedrich Heer, God's First Love (New York: Weybright and Talley, 1967), p. 320, citing Lewy, pp. 249-250; see also Falconi, Carlo, Il silenzio di Pio XII (Milan) 1965.

62. Heer, p. 319.

63. Lewy, p. 57 ff.

64. Ibid., p. 94 ff.

65. Ibid., p. 100f.

66. Ibid., p. 105.

67. Heer, p. 310.

68. Heer, p. 110.

69. Giovannetti, A., Der Vatikan und der Krieg (Cologne) 1961.

70. Lewy, p. 304.


http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-hitler.htm

Shredder
26th April 2004, 20:16
edit: as of this posting i haven't yet read enigma's post just above me


I hate the way people are making it seem like it wasn't socialism.

You hate it because it is a fact that stands opposed to your political agenda. Of course, to you, everything is socialism because you call anything with any government 'socialism' and instead of seeing capitalism with varying degrees of government, you see see every government as a different degree of socialism. That is the upside-down sort of thinking that runs through all of your posts.

Fascism is the sigh of a dying capitalism. Fascism is "if we can't have our capitalism through democracy, we will have it through force." In the final analysis, fascism stands for the private ownership of the means of production. Fascism arises as a syncretic, bonapartist force of capitalism in decline. It is not socialism and has nothing to do with communism--it is capitalism's last, desperate attempt to stave off the rule of the proletariat.

NYC4Ever
26th April 2004, 20:40
Maybe its corrupt capitalisms style of keeping alive, but no where near to the US and a coorect way of managing capitalism. Whats with you? The same way you see my flawed way of thinking that runs through my post, anything and almost everything is fascist and capitalism to you. Are you telling me that Stalin and Lenin were not fascists? Mao was not a fascist? They are two forms of corruptness that we got rid of. Lets say that National Socialism is capitalism gone wrong, well then it is a ruling private enterprise with a heavy army. Hitler based it on the material. Communism, or how it ends up with every attempt is no different. Also based on the material and control of production, giving up individuality and molding minds into propaganda. Both gave no regards to individual rights and deserved to be stomped. Why would you be up in arms citing that it was all about private industry just to make capitalism look bad like communism has achieved better? The United States fought against both of these failed ideologies.

Shredder
26th April 2004, 21:09
Once again on 'national socialism':

Lenin, Stalin, Mao, not fascists. As usual, you are one hundred percent wrong.

The Nazi party took all sorts of authoritarian measures, even economic control.

But economic control for the benefit of what class?

For the bourgeoisie.

Not socialism.

Compare this to the USSR. There is great debate about how to classify the USSR, whether it was in favor of the proletariat or simply for the bureaucrats of the state itself. In either case, it was not run for private capitalists, because there weren't any.

Once again: Fascism was completely in favor of the private ownership of means of production; of the bourgeois class; the state may have bossed around the capitalists, but for the capitalist's own good. Marxist are in favor of destroying the capitalist class.

DSCH
26th April 2004, 22:19
Are you serious?

Ban DSCH for trolling.
Typical fascist reply.


Fascism is diametrically opposed to communism.
In what way? Both are the opposite of anarchy.


Fascism arose in Germany
No it didn't. It arose in Italy. Nazi Socialism arose in Germany.


basically as the right-wing trying to defeat communism at all costs
Wrong. Socialism is left-wing. Hitler called Jews and Christians "right-wing extremists" and "right-wing fanatics."


But the workers' movement was so strong that the Nazis went so far as to tack on the word 'socialism.'
What do you see as being the policy differences between Nazism and Communism?


The ideology of Fascism bears everything in common with capitalism and nothing in common with communism.
Why do you say that? Fascism and capitalism are opposites. And please don't come back quoting the fascist propaganda of Mussolini about how fascism should properly be called corporatism. If you buy into that fascist propaganda you probably also buy into the the propaganda that Jews are subhuman.


When I think of Fascism's ideology, I think of heirarchy
Why? Heirarchy is in no way particular to fascism. All Communist societies have had a hierarchy. All Socialist societies. All monarchies etc.


have respect for those above you; some people are just naturally superior.
That sounds like Stalin and Mao to me.


Fascism was in favor of bourgeoise property relations.[/u] So it is capitalism
What is bourgeois property relations?


Hitler was fanatically opposed to communism.
Coca-Cola is fanatically opposed to Pepsi. But they're still the same thing. The reason why Hitler was so opposed to the Communist Party is because the Nazi Party and Communist Party were competing for the same Socialist electorate and the same Socialist votes.

Xvall
26th April 2004, 23:47
Socialism is just a euphamism for racism. E.g. Nazism is left-wing Socialism.

LMAO.


Communism is fascism. The only difference between Nazis and Communists is that while Nazis come to power democratically, Communists advocate violent and bloodthirsty revolution.

LMAO!


Anarchism is the extreme right-wing.

LMAO!!

Please, please tell us that you are fucking with us. Seriously, go to Stormfront and tell them they are left-wing socialists. See what they say to you! More importantly, if we're all fascists, why aren't we working together? Why do most anti-racist orginizations adopt a socialistic stance?

Shredder
27th April 2004, 00:19
No it didn't. It arose in Italy. Nazi Socialism arose in Germany.


I clearly meant, "in Germany, fascism arose". Nor could one say it first arose in Italy, but only that it was first manifest there. The fascist ideology was beginning to come together before it was ever practiced.

For the rest of your nonsense, I've already answered it all three times, and I'll throw in yet more elaboration:

The aforementioned fascist ideology was all about heirarchy and competition. If you think this is identicle to the communist ideology, then that just goes to show how completely ignorant you are of what we actually believe. We hold that "all men are created equal," whereas fascists insist that no two people are equal. They believe in "competition, not cooperation" not only of races between eachother but even competition between members of each race.


That sounds like Stalin and Mao to me.

Now you are following the same format of argument that right-wingers always follow when they are losing arguments against communism. You drag in examples of 'communism' that you know we abhor. I know your simple mind so well that I can predict the course of this debate.

You know very well that we will admonish the policies of Stalin and Mao.

Then, you will try to unite your petty criticism with our actual ideals by saying something along the lines of "but communism will always be imperfect because people are corrupt." And, at that point, you will have lost the argument.


What is bourgeois property relations?

The private ownership of means of production. Fascism has capitalists and wage labor. It is capitalism. Someday, you will grow mature enough to realize that there are two categories, the first ranges from capitalism to communism, and the other from totalitarianism to libertarianism, and that you can combine the categories in any way you choose, to create libertarian communism or authoritarian capitalism. But then you will have to stop trolling this forum, because your entire line of argument consists of doing nothing but tenaciously insisting that all communism is authoritarian and all capitalism is libertarianism, resorting to superstitions of 'human nature,' as if magical forces make the other two combinations impossible.

Shredder
27th April 2004, 00:33
And since you like magickal forces so much, I took the liberty of finding this webpage (http://www.crystalinks.com/directory2.html) that I thought you might enjoy. Did you know that the world is going to be destroyed on December 21, 2012? It's true, the mayan's said so.

DSCH
27th April 2004, 02:42
Originally posted by Drake [email protected] 26 2004, 11:47 PM
Seriously, go to Stormfront and tell them they are left-wing socialists. See what they say to you!
Why would I care what Nazi Socialists think?


More importantly, if we're all fascists, why aren't we working together?
Communists and Nazis do work together. They both work together to make Government bigger, more authoritarian, and to raise taxes in order to enslave corporations and individuals.


Why do most anti-racist orginizations adopt a socialistic stance?
They don't. I think what you mean to say is that most anti-white organizations adopt a socialist stance.

synthesis
27th April 2004, 03:15
Communists and Nazis do work together. They both work together to make Government bigger, more authoritarian, and to raise taxes in order to enslave corporations and individuals.

Can you give a single example of this?

Vinny Rafarino
27th April 2004, 03:37
After having quite a laugh I actually started to refute this kid's posts however I have a strange suspicion that the boy DSCH here is not who he says he is.

His "unique" observations are so completely fallicious that only an enemy to Marxism and Anarchism could possibly know so very little about it, especially while advising everyone here on how they have "never read Marx'.


Who are you really boy?


Kelvin90210?

Dark Capitalist?

Capitalist Imperial?

DSCH
27th April 2004, 03:38
Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 03:15 AM

Communists and Nazis do work together. They both work together to make Government bigger, more authoritarian, and to raise taxes in order to enslave corporations and individuals.

Can you give a single example of this?
Sure. Whenever Senator Byrd (KKK-WV) co-sponsors a bill with Senator Kerry (C-MA) or Senator Kennedy (C-MA).

DSCH
27th April 2004, 03:40
Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 27 2004, 03:37 AM
After having quite a laugh I actually started to refute this kid's posts however I have a strange suspicion that the boy DSCH here is not who he says he is.

His "unique" observations are so completely fallicious that only an enemy to Marxism and Anarchism could possibly know so very little about it, especially while advising everyone here on how they have "never read Marx'.


Who are you really boy?


Kelvin90210?

Dark Capitalist?

Capitalist Imperial?
I'm not an enemy of anarchism. However I am an enemy of Marx because Marx is the opposite of anarchism.

I have no idea who those people are.

DSCH stands for Dmitri Shostakovich, my favorite composer, a lifelong anti-Stalinist who wrote his 10th Symphony to celebrate Stalin's death.

Vinny Rafarino
27th April 2004, 03:42
Of course you don't dear.


Perhaps the others will follow my lead by no longer bothering with you.

synthesis
27th April 2004, 03:47
Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 26 2004, 08:42 PM
Of course you don't dear.


Perhaps the others will follow my lead by no longer bothering with you.
That's probably the best course of action at this point.

Vinny Rafarino
27th April 2004, 04:03
This thread is done.