Che on rape

[RedCeltic]

There was a thread that was recently sent to the trash can before I had a chance to reply to it, so I'd like to take the opportunity to clear this up right now...

The question was if during the Cuban revolution, did Che Guevara authorize someone to rape and than mention it in a diary about the Cuban Revolution.

Firstly... I happen to own a copy of all books he wrote and not one of them was a diary about the Cuban Revolution.

Secondly, if one wants to question what Che Guevara's views were on rape, they should first look at the executions he presided over.

It is a common theme for those who hate the image of Che Guevara to say that Che executed innocents. However this is not true. Among the reasons people were executed were Rape, murder, and torture. Che took a hardline position against those who abused women and rape received the harshest punishment.

So, while there is no evidence that Che would have allowed for such a thing, there is strong evidence that Che would not have allowed it due to his character and actions later on.

[Essential Insignificance]

This is a "sensitive" subject matter even for the great admires of Che…me being oneself insofar.

From what I understand Che did indeed keep and maintain a journal throughout the revolutionary campaign in Cuba…although not as full as those youthful trips around South America, there being two, and the Congolese and Bolivian attempted revolutions.

There has been tenable sentiment that Che had numerous illegitimate children throughout Cuba during the Cuban revolution…one becoming a prisoner for refusing to do "National Service" training...that Che set up himself (!)

I am not in any way suggesting that Che indeed raped or "authorized" the rape of women by others…but in must be admitted by a solemn Che admirer that he had dissimilar stands for women then man.

Theres substantial evidence to suggest that Che had an affair with Tania Bourke in Bolivia…not being his first of course.

Theory for Che might have been incredibly different to practice.

Again I am not suggesting that Che raped or "authorized" the raping of women.

Having affairs and raping or authorizing thus, are polar opposites...I want to make that lucid.

Thanks.

[seen_che]

so what if he had alot of vomen.....just as long as he dident rape em.....

[Fidelbrand]

Rape is exploitation, both physical and mental.
With the proof above and the renowned attitude of Che to fight exploitation, the answer is surely negative.

p.S. i 've seen stories about a girl saying "What can i do for the revolution?" to Fidel, and Fidel fucked her with his boots on .. Undoubtedly, these are all cappie craps to dennounce the Cuban revolution~ =_=.....

[Ortega]

Originally posted by RedCeltic+Apr 24 2004, 06:07 AM--> (RedCeltic @ Apr 24 2004, 06:07 AM) Firstly... I happen to own a copy of all books he wrote and not one of them was a diary about the Cuban Revolution. [/b]

Kurai [email protected] 23 2004, 11:21 PM
I just tried doing an Amazon search for this alleged Cuban diary, and as I suspected there was none

It's funny how everyone is using the fact that there is no published 'Cuban Diary' as such a talking point

There is a "Cuban Diary (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0873488245/qid=1082815355/sr=8-9/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i9_xgl14/102-1320382-9686513?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)," and I own it.

:blink:

[Severian]

Originally posted by ¡Ortega!@Apr 24 2004, 08:02 AM
There is a "Cuban Diary (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0873488245/qid=1082815355/sr=8-9/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i9_xgl14/102-1320382-9686513?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)," and I own it.

:blink:
As you say. "Episodes of the Cuban Revolutionary War" is an excellent book. It's not exactly a diary in form, but let's not get too sidetracked.

It backs up everything RedCeltic says: Che, and the whole leadership of the Rebel Army, were death on rape and any kind of abuse of the civilian population.

This has remained true of the Revolutionary Armed Forces down to today; in Angola, for example, Cuban soldiers were executed for raping Angolan women.

[antieverything]

My brother took a class, I don't remember what, that had a focus on Che's life. My brother often refers to him "travelling around South America, raping women." I'll have to ask him what he means by that, though.

[RedCeltic]

It's funny how everyone is using the fact that there is no published 'Cuban Diary' as such a talking point

There is a "Cuban Diary," and I own it.

I didn't mean to say that Che never wrote about the Revolution, I think he wrote that after and not during.

The inclusion of Che authorizing a rape isn't the kind of thing that Che would logically include in a book reflecting back on it because the writing would have been meant for mass publication as propaganda. While the book includes personal letters and documents by Che, as I recall it was more about the rise of the July 26th movement and how they had become leaders of the Revolution.

A Diary however, is writing that isn't meant to be published and therefore it is logical to assume that if Che had in fact authorized a rape he may have (or may not have) included it in a diary that wasn't meant for public consumption. That is the implication that I got out of the assumption that Che had written a diary while in the Sierra Nevada and included things that are not flattering to the widely accepted image of his character.

Still, it is possible that he did this, and possible that he wrote about it however both seem highly implausible, especially the latter.

[pandora]

My question to this did not involve the raping of women, on the contrary it involved the raping of male prisoners following the Bay of Pigs by Cuban forces prior to their release for tractor parts, and was not related to Che raping them, but to whether Che had issued a directive to humilate them or teach them a lesson which was interpreted by his troops in this way.

The fact remains some of the prisoners were sodomized, I personally know someone who interviewed one of the prisoners just prior to him losing sanity due to the abuse and being institutionalized.

Of coarse such actions are common in most nation states, Ethopia and the United States engage in such actions. But I do feel the Cuban directives which are homophobic may have led to such abuse as well.

[Le Libérer]

Theres not one negative action taken by Che or Fidel that the U$ hasnt perfected.

Sorry I closed this topic so soon, I just couldnt fathom the a thought. Sometimes I could kick myself for being too pollyanna sometimes.

[Ortega]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2004, 07:43 PM
My brother took a class, I don't remember what, that had a focus on Che's life. My brother often refers to him "travelling around South America, raping women." I'll have to ask him what he means by that, though.
He's right..

Before Che discovered Marxism, before Che had even discovered politics, he was a very different guy from the strict, upstanding revolutionary we all know and love. To put it simply, he was a playboy. At a very young age, he would attempt to seduce his maids and (so it's been said) rape them.

He was quite the womanizer from then up until he began to read Marx. Upon discovering Marxism, he transformed his life completely (to put it lightly). I very much doubt that by the time of the Revolution Che would have allowed rape of any kind.

[pandora]

Seduction of his maids were probably more coercion based on status in the begining, but they seemed to prefer him to his upper class friends. The whole practice going back to slavery makes me sick, I'm sure later it made Che sick as well. Usually it seemed Che more or less paid for the pleasure as a young man, as the culture didn't really allow men and women to experiment.

One seduction that was questionable was of his cousin he called Negrita, although the Pablo Neruda poetry he read her was nice, he definately used questionable judgement there, she was family and way too young.

I'd say the closest event to a rape that springs to mind, was when Che attempted to drag a previously interested young woman off the floor in Chile in the Motorcycle Diaries, what's sad about this is Alberto had to be the voice of reason, the whole town was pissed at him forcing himself drunkenly on this woman who was now freaked out as her husband was watching, women do have a right to change their mind, that would have been a date rape.

Luckily the event becomes humorous as the pair are chased out of town before he even gets her off the dance floor. And Alberto curses him.

The young Ernesto didn't really understand women, he seems to have needed more time to develop emotionally, he loves Hilda, but acts like an adolescent about it because she isn't attractive enough for his peers, other women note though how he dotes on her and ignores them, preferring her company.

He's just really emotionally immature in terms of women until Hildita is born, then he matures very quickly.
Women can tell it seems and suddenly become strongly attracted to him due to his sensitivity.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2004, 09:46 PM
My question to this did not involve the raping of women, on the contrary it involved the raping of male prisoners following the Bay of Pigs by Cuban forces prior to their release for tractor parts, and was not related to Che raping them, but to whether Che had issued a directive to humilate them or teach them a lesson which was interpreted by his troops in this way.

The fact remains some of the prisoners were sodomized, I personally know someone who interviewed one of the prisoners just prior to him losing sanity due to the abuse and being institutionalized.

Of coarse such actions are common in most nation states, Ethopia and the United States engage in such actions. But I do feel the Cuban directives which are homophobic may have led to such abuse as well.
By most accounts I've ever seen, the Bay of Pigs prisoners said they had been treated well. For example: "Perhaps the most bitter exchange came from brigade member Luis Tornes, who said he became convinced that the United States intentionally sent the soldiers to their death in the hope that world opinion would blame Castro for mass murder. But Castro didn't cooperate, and instead took the surviving invaders prisoner and gave them medical treatment." link (http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20010423&c=2&s=dinges)

The policy of the Cuban revolution has always been not to mistreat prisoners. This goes back to the Sierra Maestra, when they needed Batista soldiers to surrender so they could get their weapons.

I don't think this can be overriden by some unnamed person interviewing an unnamed nearly-insane person.

[Revolt!]

I started that thread on che and rape that was trashed for no reason.

I was told that he let it happen not authorised it.

[nicolas_c]

Everything I have read about Che is pretty much just what Red Celtic said. I read a book (I don't remember which, I've read several) that said that basically his stance was that if people chose to engage in mutually consentual sex, great, but rape was NOT tolerated, nor did he see women as lesser. He had a lot of women, and he allowed the women under his command to have a lot of men... it just had to be consentual.

[Raisa]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2004, 01:58 PM


p.S. i 've seen stories about a girl saying "What can i do for the revolution?" to Fidel, and Fidel fucked her with his boots on .. =_=.....
wwwooo......with the boots on! pretty kinky fidel.....pretty kinky. ;)

[Raisa]

Originally posted by Essential [email protected] 24 2004, 08:23 AM
This is a "sensitive" subject matter even for the great admires of Che…me being oneself insofar.


Yeah, "sensitive" subjects are what you get for tenderly worshipping some one who is just a man.
Ché Guevara is just a man. Be honored what he did, but remeber who he did it as. A man.

[Severian]

Originally posted by Revolt!@May 2 2004, 07:55 AM
I started that thread on che and rape that was trashed for no reason.

I was told that he let it happen not authorised it.
"Told" by who? It's not real responsible to spread unfounded, anonymous, unverifiable rumors.

I wouldn't even accuse Bush of something without more basis than anyone's given for slamming Che. Heck, I might even speak up for Bush - probably would if I knew some reason to think that particular accusation was untrue.

[Kurai Tsuki]

What exactly was the problem with letting this thread stay trashed?