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DSCH
24th April 2004, 01:29
Villepan: No Terrorists S'il Vous Plait

Via LGF

French Interior Minister Dominique de Villepin (who is a man) is embarking on a simplistic, unilateral, racist campaign to expel foreign imams of the Religion of Peace from France, unjustly accusing these religious leaders of extremism and violating their civil rights, in a stunning act of state-sponsored terrorism that is bound to further enflame an already dangerously over-inflamed Arab Street: Villepin targets non-French imams (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/04/22/france.imams.reut/index.html).


Speaking a day after he deported an Algerian imam for saying Islam let husbands beat adulterous wives, Villepin urged the countrys prefects Thursday to expel any foreign preacher who advocated violence, hate, racism or abuses of human rights.

Only about 10 percent of imams in France are citizens and about half of all imams in the country speak French, experts say.

Most are imported from Arab countries, where some have been trained in radical Islamist views that clash with Frances secular laws.

But mainstream Muslim leaders calls for help require funds, scarce at a time when France is struggling to cut its huge budget deficit. Their appeals for subsidies also conflict with the countrys strict separation of church and state.

We must face the issue of training imams, Villepin told a meeting of prefects, who oversee the application of government policy in departments across France.

I ask you to help the Muslim faith get organized better and more quickly so a real French Islam can emerge, he said, adding that training programs would help the official French Council of the Muslim Faith (CFCM) to supervise imams.

Nickademus
24th April 2004, 02:27
so what now people who have screwed up views (according to france) should be sent elsewhere where the rest of the world can educate them?

hmm ... interesting .. i say send them all to say .. australia..then we could have a country of wife beaters? what the hell? how bout you educate people and not just push them out of your country so that you don't have to fuckin' deal with them. my goodness, the stupidity!

DSCH
24th April 2004, 06:06
Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2004, 02:27 AM
so what now people who have screwed up views (according to france) should be sent elsewhere where the rest of the world can educate them?

hmm ... interesting .. i say send them all to say .. australia..then we could have a country of wife beaters? what the hell? how bout you educate people and not just push them out of your country so that you don't have to fuckin' deal with them. my goodness, the stupidity!
I guess you don't get it. They aren't French citizens. It's the Arab world that needs to solve its problems and educate its people with Judeo-Christian morality and not the Satanic Jihadi fairy tales of the Koran. How about the Arab world educates its terrorists instead of pushing them into civilized countries where they teach wife beating and the mass murder of innocent people.

Nickademus
24th April 2004, 07:00
Originally posted by DSCH+Apr 23 2004, 10:06 PM--> (DSCH @ Apr 23 2004, 10:06 PM)
[email protected] 24 2004, 02:27 AM
so what now people who have screwed up views (according to france) should be sent elsewhere where the rest of the world can educate them?

hmm ... interesting .. i say send them all to say .. australia..then we could have a country of wife beaters? what the hell? how bout you educate people and not just push them out of your country so that you don't have to fuckin' deal with them. my goodness, the stupidity!
I guess you don't get it. They aren't French citizens. It's the Arab world that needs to solve its problems and educate its people with Judeo-Christian morality and not the Satanic Jihadi fairy tales of the Koran. How about the Arab world educates its terrorists instead of pushing them into civilized countries where they teach wife beating and the mass murder of innocent people. [/b]
obviously you didn't get my point.....so for some reason (whatever that reason may be) a wife beater ends up in my backyard ... i dont care ohw the hell he got there the point is i wouldn't send him away without trying to reason with him and show him the way ... and i NEVER said that judeo-christian morality needed to be pushed onto anyway ... i don't subscribe to judeo-christian morality myself.

and thanx for the racism...well appreciated on this board.

DSCH
24th April 2004, 18:49
Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2004, 07:00 AM
obviously you didn't get my point.....so for some reason (whatever that reason may be) a wife beater ends up in my backyard ... i dont care ohw the hell he got there the point is i wouldn't send him away without trying to reason with him and show him the way ... and i NEVER said that judeo-christian morality needed to be pushed onto anyway ... i don't subscribe to judeo-christian morality myself.

and thanx for the racism...well appreciated on this board.
Would you also waste time reasoning with Hitler?

And if you don't subscribe to Judeo-Christian morality then I guess you have no problem with wife beating, murder, robbery, rape, etc.

Osman Ghazi
24th April 2004, 21:39
Actually, it is usually the people who subscribe to 'Judeo-Christian' ethics that beat their wives. They don't call it the Bible belt for nothing, you retard.

DSCH
24th April 2004, 21:44
Originally posted by Osman [email protected] 24 2004, 09:39 PM
Actually, it is usually the people who subscribe to 'Judeo-Christian' ethics that beat their wives. They don't call it the Bible belt for nothing, you retard.
Hahaha. You've never read the Bible.

Nickademus
24th April 2004, 23:04
Originally posted by DSCH+Apr 24 2004, 10:49 AM--> (DSCH @ Apr 24 2004, 10:49 AM)
[email protected] 24 2004, 07:00 AM
obviously you didn't get my point.....so for some reason (whatever that reason may be) a wife beater ends up in my backyard ... i dont care ohw the hell he got there the point is i wouldn't send him away without trying to reason with him and show him the way ... and i NEVER said that judeo-christian morality needed to be pushed onto anyway ... i don't subscribe to judeo-christian morality myself.

and thanx for the racism...well appreciated on this board.
Would you also waste time reasoning with Hitler?

And if you don't subscribe to Judeo-Christian morality then I guess you have no problem with wife beating, murder, robbery, rape, etc. [/b]
well i sure as hell wouldn't just push hitler onto someone else so i don't have to deal with them. its akin to pushing the poor and the sex trade workers and the durg addicts into the vancouver downtown eastside so you don't have to deal with the problme until it explodes in your face.

and no i don't agree with wife beating, murder, rape, robbery etc. but i do not get my moral code from judeo-christianity.

DSCH
24th April 2004, 23:10
Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2004, 07:00 AM
no i don't agree with wife beating, murder, rape, robbery etc.
Why not?


but i do not get my moral code from judeo-christianity.
Where do you get it from?

Nickademus
24th April 2004, 23:17
Originally posted by DSCH+Apr 24 2004, 03:10 PM--> (DSCH @ Apr 24 2004, 03:10 PM)
[email protected] 24 2004, 07:00 AM
no i don't agree with wife beating, murder, rape, robbery etc.
Why not?


but i do not get my moral code from judeo-christianity.
Where do you get it from? [/b]
because i believe in respect for other human beings and the sanctity of life. and i get that from my faith ... which is not judeo-christian.... i'm a pagan bastard!

BuyOurEverything
24th April 2004, 23:34
Hahaha. You've never read the Bible.

Check it kid:

The bible: tough on rape.


If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
Deuteronomy 22:28-29

Yep, 50 pieces of silver. To her father


If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.
Deuteronomy 22:23-24

Well, she didn't cry out, she obviously had i coming.


Also:


If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives
Leviticus 20:13

Homosexuality is a capital offense, evidently.


A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death
Leviticus 20:27

Kill all fortune tellers. Just another example of good old fashioned Judeo-Christian justice.


All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense
Leviticus 20:9

"Fuck you dad!" Oops, time to die son.


If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death
Leviticus 20:10

Caught your wife with another man? Kill em both! God said so!


A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death
Leviticus 21:9

She wasn't married? Burn the whore alive!


So in conclusion, anyone that doesn't follow the bible is a horrible person.

DSCH
24th April 2004, 23:39
Jesus brings a new covenenant in the New Testament. Jesus says that if you even look on a woman in lust, let alone rape her, you are commiting a sin.

BuyOurEverything
24th April 2004, 23:44
So by Judeo-Christian, you really mean Christian. What do you think of Judaism and the old testement?

Don't Change Your Name
25th April 2004, 00:19
Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2004, 06:06 AM
I guess you don't get it. They aren't French citizens. It's the Arab world that needs to solve its problems and educate its people with Judeo-Christian morality and not the Satanic Jihadi fairy tales of the Koran.
Ha! So you are a religious? Oh, I see! So basically you seem to think that for some reason what you were taught by some epic book called "the Bible" was always the truth, and those who disagree are some "heretic Satan worshippers" that "must be burnt" because they are in the same damn simmilar situation thanks to indoctrination and an irrational thing called faith!! Wow.
So what you want to do is go and teach them that your fairytales are the truth, thus brainwashing them in a simmilar fashion, but replacing "Allah" with "God", "Mahoma" with "Jesus", "Koran" with "Holy Bible" and "Jihad" with "Crusade"!!!!! :rolleyes:

What kind of fascism is that?
Wait, I see what you might be trying to do! You might be trying to claim that, as we all disagree most of the times with the Judeo-Christian values, we are anti-Semites, so you will use it to justify why you think Hitler was a leftist!

Sure, the Muslims are also brainwashed and their values are stupid as shit, but that doesn't mean their religion should be replaced with a simmilar one! Of course "dying in the name of Allah" is stupid, but that doesnt mean that all Muslims are like that, or that Israelis are "good" with Palestinians (to give an example" or that we should brainwash them even more!

You sound like some stupid leninists that want to replace the current state with another.

I have an idea: what about if we start campaigns against useless things like religions and instead we promote that killing is against freedom and it's not a good thing for anybody so that's why it should be done? That would be better and realistic.

cubist
26th April 2004, 14:35
DSCH you ass,

muslim nations don't have to pump christian bullshit into they're people you christians need to accept them too, none of your religions are real they all have shitty track records.

i suggest before you compare religions to satanism you read the satanic bible its a lot more thoughful than the bible.

i have read the bible, and it shows many things in there that represent wife beating misogynism and hipocracy.


i believe sir anton lavey revels in the fact that you blind rage filled loving christians, "who are taught to miseo thine enemy" yet you hate your enemy and peopel like you proove it to him, don't be an arse it is you who fails to understand,

you get offended when muslims fail to accept you but you fail to accept them, ahh the stench of hypocrtical blind religion is as omnipresent as usual.

DSCH
26th April 2004, 17:23
Another moron who's never read the Bible or understood a word Christ said...:rolleyes:

cubist
26th April 2004, 17:27
*removes glove*

*slaps DSCH across the face*

"i challenge you to a duel"

DSCH
26th April 2004, 17:31
Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 05:27 PM
*removes glove*

*slaps DSCH across the face*

"i challenge you to a duel"
I turn the other cheek.

cubist
26th April 2004, 18:01
oh such a exemplery use of jesus and his teachings.

firstly i could say you clearly don't understand science but i don't.

normally i would let things like this go bo i wish to understand you.

firstly why have i not read the bible properly, and how did conclude this from what i was saying?


have i not read the bible properly becuase i no longer believe in christ and yaqweh.

i remmeber most of the teachings but i remember some things i don't like

Like judges 19 versus 22-29
22 While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him."
23 The owner of the house went outside and said to them, "No, my friends, don't be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don't do this disgraceful thing. 24 Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But to this man, don't do such a disgraceful thing."
25 But the men would not listen to him. So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. 26 At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight.
27 When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. 28 He said to her, "Get up; let's go." But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.
29 When he reached home, he took a knife and cut up his concubine, limb by limb, into twelve parts and sent them into all the areas of Israel

and being an exchristian i remember syaing oh jesus said BLah blah blah, the new testement over rights the old tesetemant but the truth is it doesn't, if it did then the oldtestement wouldn't exist. the oldtestement must exist to establish the socalled Sin that jesus so valiantly martyrs himself for.

and lets not forget that the only evidence you have to support your god is you and your self justification, no one has ever seen god,

and then we have the churches way of avoiding questions
with answers like

"no one is allowed to challenge or question gods integrity", even when he had women raped and murdered,

you can believe in god all you like i don't care but you can't argue on a non christian sitethat we are all wrong about politics ebcuase we don't believe in god.

JESUS SAID LOVE THINE NEIGHBOUR AND MISEO THINE ENEMY

yet you seem to believe that your enemy the muslim world need educateing to understand christianity and that thy have no right to anything unless they do

my goodness your the sort of religious Nut jesus tried to ostricise by creating christianity.

i suppose you don't like marylin manson? is he evil?

i am sure jesus will be proud of you, your doing a good job of premoting your faith as the REAL one. i believe that your supposed to witness to help save other people from eternal damnation in hell

DSCH
26th April 2004, 22:03
Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 06:01 PM
oh such a exemplery use of jesus and his teachings.

firstly i could say you clearly don't understand science but i don't.

normally i would let things like this go bo i wish to understand you.

firstly why have i not read the bible properly, and how did conclude this from what i was saying?


have i not read the bible properly becuase i no longer believe in christ and yaqweh.

i remmeber most of the teachings but i remember some things i don't like

Like judges 19 versus 22-29
22 While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him."
23 The owner of the house went outside and said to them, "No, my friends, don't be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don't do this disgraceful thing. 24 Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But to this man, don't do such a disgraceful thing."
25 But the men would not listen to him. So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. 26 At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight.
27 When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. 28 He said to her, "Get up; let's go." But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.
29 When he reached home, he took a knife and cut up his concubine, limb by limb, into twelve parts and sent them into all the areas of Israel

and being an exchristian i remember syaing oh jesus said BLah blah blah, the new testement over rights the old tesetemant but the truth is it doesn't, if it did then the oldtestement wouldn't exist. the oldtestement must exist to establish the socalled Sin that jesus so valiantly martyrs himself for.

and lets not forget that the only evidence you have to support your god is you and your self justification, no one has ever seen god,

and then we have the churches way of avoiding questions
with answers like

"no one is allowed to challenge or question gods integrity", even when he had women raped and murdered,

you can believe in god all you like i don't care but you can't argue on a non christian sitethat we are all wrong about politics ebcuase we don't believe in god.

JESUS SAID LOVE THINE NEIGHBOUR AND MISEO THINE ENEMY

yet you seem to believe that your enemy the muslim world need educateing to understand christianity and that thy have no right to anything unless they do

my goodness your the sort of religious Nut jesus tried to ostricise by creating christianity.

i suppose you don't like marylin manson? is he evil?

i am sure jesus will be proud of you, your doing a good job of premoting your faith as the REAL one. i believe that your supposed to witness to help save other people from eternal damnation in hell
So you're going to judge the teachings of Jesus based on the sinful actions of a few Sodomites? That's like judging Buddha based on the Tianenmen square massacre.

Jesus taught the Golden Rule, not Sodomy or mass murder. Furthermore, the Old Testament itself explicitly forbids Sodomy and murder. I don't see what your point is by quoting that passage.

As for why I believe in God, the evidence I have for God's existence is so overwhelming it would take me a lifetime to write volumes so let me sum it up this way. The evidence I have is the universe's existence and being itself. What caused the universe? Why is there being rather than nothingness? What caused the Big Bang? The word that civilized Western people have used for the last 4000 years is God. God is the First Cause of the universe and God caused the Big Bang.

Dan_Canadian
26th April 2004, 23:14
As for why I believe in God, the evidence I have for God's existence is so overwhelming it would take me a lifetime to write volumes so let me sum it up this way. The evidence I have is the universe's existence and being itself.

Ohh. I get it. So, basically you have no evidence to support what you're saying so you just make up some bullshit about how you know how the world came about, but jsut can't tell us cause there is too much information. I say, get off your lazy ass and get writing *****, or shut the fuck up, because I've heard that line a thousand times. Prove it or be quiet.


What caused the Big Bang? The word that civilized Western people have used for the last 4000 years is God. God is the First Cause of the universe and God caused the Big Bang.

prove it. :lol:

oh wait..you CAN'T

Don't Change Your Name
27th April 2004, 00:20
Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 11:14 PM
prove it. :lol:

oh wait..you CAN'T
That's the point of faith! :lol: :lol:

Dan_Canadian
27th April 2004, 00:38
There is no point

DaCuBaN
27th April 2004, 01:03
:lol: that was his point :D

For situations like this I tend to refer to this (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/) or more specifically these (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/contra_list.html)

The second link is an absolute must read - it's annotation of the contradictions in the 'good book'. If you're an athiest it just makes great reading, and if you're 'judeo-christian' it should be at least somewhat enlightening as it shows the arguments for and against each point.

I personally like this...

"Call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."
:rolleyes:

Dan_Canadian
27th April 2004, 01:08
thanks tips

DSCH
27th April 2004, 02:35
So which one of you Atheist religious fanatics can tell me how the universe got here? What caused the universe? All effects have a cause, so what caused the universe?

Oh and then prove it.

DaCuBaN
27th April 2004, 02:43
I resent the implication that I'm atheistic. I'll have you know I'm a Confirmed Catholic :PBeing 'religious' my expert opinion is that you can't prove nor disprove the existence of an entity such as 'God' so don't even try.

Dan_Canadian
27th April 2004, 02:45
I'll take that as an insult. An Atheiest fanatic? i think thats going a bit too far. I don't believe in god, doesn't neccessarily make me an Atheist or a fanatic. I;m no scientisst but i've heard plenty of reasonalbe explanations by them. Google it up bud, search something like evolution/creation of earth and universe. I'm sure you'll find too much to handle. And I'm not sure what is on those pages, but it sure as hell won't be bullshit like: "umm, i have no evidence but i have faith that i'm right"
yea thanks that doesn't help us at all.

DaCuBaN
27th April 2004, 02:57
I don't believe in god, doesn't neccessarily make me an Atheist or a fanatic

Not believing in a god makes you an athiest man :)

Athiest=Non believer/Heretic
Agnostic=Coward/Heretic

Didn't you know that? :lol:

DSCH
27th April 2004, 02:58
Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 02:45 AM
I'll take that as an insult. An Atheiest fanatic? i think thats going a bit too far. I don't believe in god, doesn't neccessarily make me an Atheist or a fanatic. I;m no scientisst but i've heard plenty of reasonalbe explanations by them. Google it up bud, search something like evolution/creation of earth and universe. I'm sure you'll find too much to handle. And I'm not sure what is on those pages, but it sure as hell won't be bullshit like: "umm, i have no evidence but i have faith that i'm right"
yea thanks that doesn't help us at all.
Why don't you believe in God?

Do you believe in cause and effect?

What caused the universe?

You telling me to google it means that your Athiest religious beliefs are based on blind faith and fanaticism. If you can't explain your views in a few short sentences then you're full of shite.

DaCuBaN
27th April 2004, 03:43
Originally posted by DSCH+Apr 27 2004, 02:58 AM--> (DSCH @ Apr 27 2004, 02:58 AM)
[email protected] 27 2004, 02:45 AM
I'll take that as an insult. An Atheiest fanatic? i think thats going a bit too far. I don't believe in god, doesn't neccessarily make me an Atheist or a fanatic. I;m no scientisst but i've heard plenty of reasonalbe explanations by them. Google it up bud, search something like evolution/creation of earth and universe. I'm sure you'll find too much to handle. And I'm not sure what is on those pages, but it sure as hell won't be bullshit like: "umm, i have no evidence but i have faith that i'm right"
yea thanks that doesn't help us at all.
Why don't you believe in God?

Do you believe in cause and effect?

What caused the universe?

You telling me to google it means that your Athiest religious beliefs are based on blind faith and fanaticism. If you can't explain your views in a few short sentences then you're full of shite. [/b]
There is no evidence, one way or the other, of the existence of a great entity. It's a pointless argument and if the two of you want to continue it please start a relevant thread, otherwise *try* to keep it relevant please :rolleyes:

As for belief in god, I'm an agnostic these days...
As for cause and effect, it's the current scientific theory and I'm in no position to refute it - however it is only THEORY and not FACT. our understanding of the universe is very VERY limited and like many scientific theories it could well be disproved.

The bit I don't get is your comment on being told to do research - what's wrong with that? you're spouting and demanding evidence from other people without having any evidence for your own argument - cause and effect doesn't cut it, there could be a million reasons too amazing for our feeble little minds to comprehend as to why the universe came into being - or maybe it's always been there and is infinite. And how does google make someone a fanatic? you're losing me here...

DSCH
27th April 2004, 03:48
Originally posted by DaCuBaN+Apr 27 2004, 03:43 AM--> (DaCuBaN @ Apr 27 2004, 03:43 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 02:58 AM

[email protected] 27 2004, 02:45 AM
I'll take that as an insult. An Atheiest fanatic? i think thats going a bit too far. I don't believe in god, doesn't neccessarily make me an Atheist or a fanatic. I;m no scientisst but i've heard plenty of reasonalbe explanations by them. Google it up bud, search something like evolution/creation of earth and universe. I'm sure you'll find too much to handle. And I'm not sure what is on those pages, but it sure as hell won't be bullshit like: "umm, i have no evidence but i have faith that i'm right"
yea thanks that doesn't help us at all.
Why don't you believe in God?

Do you believe in cause and effect?

What caused the universe?

You telling me to google it means that your Athiest religious beliefs are based on blind faith and fanaticism. If you can't explain your views in a few short sentences then you're full of shite.
There is no evidence, one way or the other, of the existence of a great entity. It's a pointless argument and if the two of you want to continue it please start a relevant thread, otherwise *try* to keep it relevant please :rolleyes:

As for belief in god, I'm an agnostic these days...
As for cause and effect, it's the current scientific theory and I'm in no position to refute it - however it is only THEORY and not FACT. our understanding of the universe is very VERY limited and like many scientific theories it could well be disproved.

The bit I don't get is your comment on being told to do research - what's wrong with that? you're spouting and demanding evidence from other people without having any evidence for your own argument - cause and effect doesn't cut it, there could be a million reasons too amazing for our feeble little minds to comprehend as to why the universe came into being - or maybe it's always been there and is infinite. And how does google make someone a fanatic? you're losing me here... [/b]
So why are you arguing with me?

DaCuBaN
27th April 2004, 03:56
I'm sorry I phrased that as badly as yourself there - thought maybe I could counteract an unintelligable remark by doing the same. Guess it's just like the whole two wrongs thing too :rolleyes: :lol:


You telling me to google it means that your Athiest religious beliefs are based on blind faith and fanaticism. If you can't explain your views in a few short sentences then you're full of shite.

What do you mean by this? The kid never declared his views one way or the other - in fact he made a point of stating that he is trying to keep an open mind, and I was forthcoming with my own views, so how can either one of us be fanatical or atheistic? This doesn't make sense it seems, could you please enlighten me as to what I am missing?

DSCH
27th April 2004, 03:58
I was immediately attacked for expessing my view that the universe was caused.

Nickademus
27th April 2004, 04:03
DSCH ... what happened to our little discussion about my morals not being judeo-christian? something you just wanted to avoid discussing altogether? or are you afraid of the pagan bastard? or perhaps you're just upset cause you can't call me an atheist fanatic?