Activists Say Israel Held Boy, 13, as Human Shield

[Intifada]

Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=4908944&pageNumber=0)

By Cynthia Johnston
BIDDO, West Bank (Reuters) - When older Palestinian boys started throwing stones at Israeli border police in the flashpoint West Bank village of Biddo, 13-year-old Muhammed Badwan went along to watch.

He ended up on the hood of an Israeli jeep, at least one of his skinny arms tied to a wire mesh screen that blocks the windshield from incoming stones, according to a photograph of the purported incident distributed by an Israeli rights group.

"He was a shield for them," Saeed Badwan, a 34-year-old labourer, said of his only son. "When I saw him on the hood of the jeep, my whole mind went crazy...It's a picture you can't even imagine. He was shivering from fear."

Police said Muhammed's case was sent to the Justice Ministry for investigation.

"I know there was violent rioting, serious rock throwing. It's unclear what happened. " police spokesman Gil Kleiman said.

"As a general rule, we do not expose civilians to physical damage willingly," he added.

Israel accuses Palestinian militants of routinely using non-combatants for cover.

Palestinian activists in Biddo, a focal point for protests against Israel's West Bank barrier, say troops have increasingly responded with excessive force to disperse stone throwers.

The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said it was monitoring West Bank anti-barrier protests after Palestinian complaints of rising violence by Israeli security forces, especially in Biddo.

Medics say four Palestinians have been shot dead this year in Biddo in rock throwing protests against the barrier, which Israel says is necessary to keep out suicide bombers. An elderly man also died of heart failure after inhaling tear gas.

Palestinians say the barrier, whose planned route snakes deep into the West Bank, is intended to annex territory captured by Israel in 1967 that Palestinians want for a state.

Biddo activists said border police had in two separate instances this month used villagers as shields to prevent stone throwing. They said forces had also repeatedly used both rubber and live bullets to disperse protesters.
NO TO HUMAN SHIELDS

"I was scared when they got me at first. I thought they would put me in prison...I was scared a stone would hit me," Muhammed said, nursing a split lip a week after his hours-long detention. Stone throwing mostly stopped when he was on the jeep.

"I cried on the hood of the jeep, and when I saw my dad."

Israel's Supreme Court barred the use of Palestinians as human shields in 2002 after an incident in which soldiers forced the neighbor of a suspected militant to knock on his door and deliver their ultimatum to surrender.

The militant shot and killed the man.

"There is supposed to be an injunction against the military... But there is evidence it is still continuing. It is less, but it does happen," said Marwan Dalal, a lawyer with the Israeli Arab rights group Adalah.

He said it was more common for soldiers to use Palestinians as human shields in military operations, but that civilians had also been used to block stone throwing.

He cited a case last year in which he said security forces used a Palestinian as a human shield during a protest in the divided West Bank city of Hebron.

"I am sure it happens more than is documented," he said.

A left-wing Israeli rabbi who said he too was detained as a human shield when he tried to intervene to free Muhammed Badwan last week said he planned to press charges.

"It is very depressing and very sad to see that we have come to this position where this is what we do. There is disbelief," said Rabbi Arik Ascherman, head of Rabbis for Human Rights, which distributed the picture, taken by a foreign photographer, of Muhammed strapped to a jeep.

But Muhammed, though he said he still wanted to throw stones at soldiers, said he did not consider all Israelis his enemy.

"If I saw an Israeli child, I would respect him, not hit him," Muhammed said. "The soldier was not good, an animal. But the man who came to help me is an honorable person."

[Professor Moneybags]

Saddam Hussein did that in the first gulf war.

[Intifada]

america and britain have committed genocide in iraq.

[lucid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 07:06 PM
america and britain have committed genocide in iraq.
:wacko:

This kid is like a computer program. He is unable to say anything without bashing the US or Bush.

BTW - Its the US not america. North America is the continent we live on and has countries other than the US.

[Intifada]

This kid is like a computer program. He is unable to say anything without bashing the US or Bush.

i am still waiting for a proper response to my post about america's genocide on the basra thread. :huh:

maybe you just don't have one?


BTW - Its the US not america. North America is the continent we live on and has countries other than the US.

if you are clever enough you should know what i mean.

[lucid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 07:26 PM

This kid is like a computer program. He is unable to say anything without bashing the US or Bush.

i am still waiting for a proper response to my post about america's genocide on the basra thread. :huh:

maybe you just don't have one?


BTW - Its the US not america. North America is the continent we live on and has countries other than the US.

if you are clever enough you should know what i mean.
genocide n. The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.


Here is your answer. Your a fucking idiot. Your still a child and your just angry at the world. You shouldn't worry much because most of us went through a phase like that. But when I went through it we didn't have an internet to get on and show people how stupid we where. Unfortunately you do. You go around searching for every bad thing you can on the US and come in here acting like you have found something special. It's not special, most of the time its biased garbage thats half true and half false. The media makes a lot of money making the US look like shit. They sell it US citizens and assholes like yourself that live thousands of miles away. If Bush is a fanatical religous right winged nut then your just the opposite of him. A blind, angry, inexperienced kid that just needs to hate something.

[Intifada]

you can insult me all you fucking like, but i at least want a dignified and backed up response to my arguments, instead of the normal crap that you just spew out of your asshole.

[Y2A]

This is absolutely wrong! The Israelis should be exterminated and all the land should be given back to the Palestinians.

[Intifada]

why do people never condemn israel for their crimes?

professor moneybags said saddam did it, but didn't condemn israel for doing it.

lucid comes out with more shit. (ironic seeing as his name is lucid)

Y2A comes out of sarcastic bullshit.

[Y2A]

I'm just trying to get you to say what you really what to say but don't have the balls to say.

[Intifada]

I'm just trying to get you to say what you really what to say but don't have the balls to say.

of course :rolleyes:

are you going to condemn this or turn a blind eye to it like the rest of the world?

[lucid]

Originally posted by ih[email protected] 22 2004, 08:22 PM
why do people never condemn israel for their crimes?

professor moneybags said saddam did it, but didn't condemn israel for doing it.

lucid comes out with more shit. (ironic seeing as his name is lucid)

Y2A comes out of sarcastic bullshit.
I love how you think its ok to "spew" crap about Israel and the US but never say a thing about Palestinean kids being made into human bombs and sent to seek out CIVILIANS only. Like I side in another post. You never say anything unless it talks crap about the US.

U suck.

[Intifada]

I love how you think its ok to "spew" crap about Israel and the US but never say a thing about Palestinean kids being made into human bombs and sent to seek out CIVILIANS only.

i condemn suicide bombings. there is no excuse for killing innocents.


Like I side in another post.

i think you are looking for the word "said".

[Y2A]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 08:25 PM

I'm just trying to get you to say what you really what to say but don't have the balls to say.

of course :rolleyes:

are you going to condemn this or turn a blind eye to it like the rest of the world?
When have I ever opposed a palestinian state or justified Israel's actions? Your a fucking moron ihatebush, that's why no one here takes you seriously except for a few idiots that want to stick it to their parents.

[Intifada]

When have I ever opposed a palestinian state or justified Israel's actions?

when have i ever supported destroying israel? like you said "you are a moron".

[Y2A]

You've never supported suicide bombings ihatebush???

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 08:22 PM
why do people never condemn israel for their crimes?

professor moneybags said saddam did it, but didn't condemn israel for doing it.

lucid comes out with more shit. (ironic seeing as his name is lucid)

Y2A comes out of sarcastic bullshit.
Well I agree with you about the issue and all, but I think its a bit silly to say that, Israel recieves a LOT of critisism, at least where I live. The palestinians are usually considered the oppressed people, and we here about suicide bombers on buses, just as we here about israeli shells in villages.

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 07:06 PM
america and britain have committed genocide in iraq.
Yeah, just like the allies committed genocide in nazi Germany.

[Dirty Commie]

Once again a serious dicussion has turned into a flame fest between members (leftist and right wingers) who can't hold a meaningful debate.

Moneybags: The allies committed atrocities in world war two. Not to the extent of the nazi sob's, but bad none the less.

Dropping two atomic bombs on civilian targets in japan, when japan was all but defeated

fire bombing of Dresden, Germany, a non military target.

the Red Army raped and pillaged germans for months after the surrender, and held pow's for years after the wars end.

NO ONE at this board supports Hussein's use of human shields. except maybe someone who cheered when George H. Bush sent billions of dollars to Iraq when he went to war with Iran.

[Intifada]

You've never supported suicide bombings ihatebush???

no. can you give me proof of my apparent support for suicide bombings?


Well I agree with you about the issue and all, but I think its a bit silly to say that, Israel recieves a LOT of critisism, at least where I live. The palestinians are usually considered the oppressed people, and we here about suicide bombers on buses, just as we here about israeli shells in villages.

i disagree. i live in scotland, and the british media never seems to mention the israeli killings of innocent palestinian people. i only ever hear this kind of news on aljazeera.

do you remember when the palestinians allegedly sent a boy who was apparently going to blow himself and a few innocent israelis up a few weeks ago? he was stopped by israeli soldiers. that news was on that night and people were saying all kinds of things about palestinians being so cold-hearted that they send kids to die.

i have yet to hear any news of this incident in the western media nor any news about the children killed in an israeli raid today, and it really does not surprise me.

[Loknar]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2004, 06:08 PM
i disagree. i live in scotland, and the british media never seems to mention the israeli killings of innocent palestinian people. i only ever hear this kind of news on aljazeera.

afterall al-jazerra is such a crediable source of news right?

[Intifada]

it shows the other side of the story unlike the western media, who only want the people to see one side of every story.

[lucid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2004, 08:13 PM
it shows the other side of the story unlike the western media, who only want the people to see one side of every story.
lol, dude I think your skirts on to tight.

[Loknar]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2004, 08:13 PM
it shows the other side of the story unlike the western media, who only want the people to see one side of every story.
The average al-jazerra viewer would stick a shank in your back just because you're a westerner. your mutual hate for america wont save you.

[Intifada]

i love the way people assume. its pretty ironic and ignorant.

[Loknar]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2004, 09:21 PM
i love the way people assume. its pretty ironic and ignorant.
Oh ok, t he average al-jazerra vierwe wouldnt stick a shank in your back then.....



those arabs hate us dont you realize that?

and the world actually expects us to support the arab states above israel. how about trying to earn our respect?

[IPkurd]

in england the media do critise israel about there actions sometimes.
Im not saying the BBC is the best source of info but there not that bias

[Intifada]

those arabs hate us dont you realize that?


they hate you for a reason.


how about trying to earn our respect?

how about you stop lying and stop your blatant double standards?

[Loknar]

they hate you for a reason.

They hate YOU too. remember, the british are oil tycoons as well and have a foot hold in t he mid-east.



how about you stop lying and stop your blatant double standards?

double standards? perhaps, many nations do those things. the point is, the arab states have given no reason for us to support them. and yet there are those who think we should support them. who built the mid-east? the west did, oil money goes a long way. Look at saudi arabia, they are one of the most sophisticated nations and yet they are in a desert environment. just remember what the west has done for t hose people and how many want to stick a shank in your back because you're a westerner.

[DSCH]

You mean like this?

http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/hamas-human-shields.jpg

[Intifada]

They hate YOU too. remember, the british are oil tycoons as well and have a foot hold in t he mid-east.

you don't know anything about me so shut the fuck up.


Look at saudi arabia, they are one of the most sophisticated nations and yet they are in a desert environment. just remember what the west has done for t hose people

if you were a woman, would you like to live in saudi arabia? i would think not. the fact is america will support a brutal leader as long as they benefit from that support. just look at islam karimov's relationship with the u$. he is one of the most brutal dictators in the world at the moment. the majority of arab people hate the u$. their governments are just u$ lackeys.


You mean like this?

no. those children do not look as if they have been forced into protecting the gunmen.

www.hrw.org/reports/2002/israel3/israel0502.pdf+israel+must+stop+using+civilians+as +human+shield&hl=en]read (http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:d0HaaxCrPxkJ:[url) page 29 of this report[/url]

[Xvall]

Saddam Hussein did that in the first gulf war.

And Saddam Hussein is regarded by most people as a dictatorial murderer. I'm not sure if you're trying to use that as justification for the Israeli Military's actions, but if you are, you are doing a horrible job.


Here is your answer. Your a fucking idiot. Your still a child and your just angry at the world.

No, here is your answer. 'Your' a fucking idiot, as you have failed to understand how to use a couple of fucking contrations.

[Xvall]

You mean like this?

Those children were not tied to the assault rifle of the gunman. Even if they were, that's no excuse for Israel to do the same thing.

[DSCH]

Here is a photo of the terrorist.

http://www.rafahkid.net/blog/pics/img_16Apr04_17_56_50_JerusalemRHR.jpg


Even if they were, that's no excuse for Israel to do the same thing
ISRAEL'S PECULIAR POSITION

By Eric Hoffer (LA Times 5/26/68)

The Jews are a peculiar people: things permitted to other nations are forbidden to the Jews. Other nations drive out thousands, even millions of people and there is no refugee problem. Russia did it, Poland and Czechoslovakia did it, Turkey threw out a million Greeks, and Algeria a million Frenchman. Indonesia threw out heaven knows how many Chinese-and no one says a word about refugees. But in the case of Israel the displaced Arabs have become eternal refugees. Everyone insists that Israel must take back every single Arab. Arnold Toynbee calls the displacement of the Arabs an atrocity greater than any committed by the Nazis.

Other nations when victorious on the battlefield dictate peace terms. But when Israel is victorious it must sue for peace. Everyone expects the Jews to be the only real Christians in this world. Other nations when they are defeated survive and recover but should Israel be defeated it would be destroyed. Had Nasser triumphed last June he would have wiped Israel off the map, and no one would have lifted a finger to save the Jews. No commitment to the Jews by any government, including our own, is worth the paper it is written on.

There is a cry of outrage all over the world when people die in Vietnam or when two Negroes are executed in Rhodesia. But when Hitler slaughtered Jews no one remonstrated with him. The Swedes, who are ready to break off diplomatic relations with America because of what we do in Vietnam, did not let out a peep when Hitler was slaughtering Jews. They sent Hitler choice iron ore, and ball bearings, and serviced his troop trains to Norway.

The Jews are alone in the world. If Israel survives, it will be solely because of Jewish efforts, and Jewish resources. Yet at this moment Israel is our only reliable and unconditional ally. We can rely more on Israel than Israel can rely on us. And one has only to imagine what would have happened last summer had the Arabs and their Russian backers won the war to realize how vital the survival of Israel is to America and the West in general. I have a premonition that will not leave me; as it goes with Israel so will it go with all of us. Should Israel perish the holocaust will be upon us.

Eric Hoffer 1968 June

[Touchstone]

I hate to point this out to you people, but the U.S and Iraq are at WAR. In war, people do bad things. Always have, always will. I hate Bush for different reasons than most. This war was one of oil and of cowardice...

[Intifada]

Here is a photo of the terrorist.

it looks like he is hiding behind the door.

[DSCH]

Israelis treat Pali kids a million times better than the Palis do.

http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/pal-child-abuse-63.jpg

[Xvall]

You assume that all 'Palis' treat their kids in the same respect. It is a small minority of the 'Palis' that are sending their kids out to detonate themselves on busses.

[DSCH]

Originally posted by Drake [email protected] 26 2004, 11:44 PM
You assume that all 'Palis' treat their kids in the same respect. It is a small minority of the 'Palis' that are sending their kids out to detonate themselves on busses.
Yeah, and only a small minority of Nazis actually poured Zyklon B into the gas chambers of Auschwitz-Birkenau.

I guess this is what you call "a small minority":

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040418/capt.jrl12704181439.mideast_israel_palestinians_ra ntisi_jrl127.jpg

[Intifada]

Israelis treat Pali kids a million times better than the Palis do.

9 in 10 palestinians killed by israel are civilians. 45% of that are children.


I guess this is what you call "a small minority":

what do you expect palestinians to do? they are not going to sit back and take the shit israel gives them. they are going to fight back. suicide bombings are wrong, but understandable.

[lucid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 06:32 AM

Israelis treat Pali kids a million times better than the Palis do.

9 in 10 palestinians killed by israel are civilians. 45% of that are children.


I guess this is what you call "a small minority":

what do you expect palestinians to do? they are not going to sit back and take the shit israel gives them. they are going to fight back. suicide bombings are wrong, but understandable.
I wonder how many of the Israelis killed by pali's are civilians?

ihatebush needs to up his ritalin dosage.

[Louis Pio]

And you need to get a life.

Your so sorry a person that you couldn't even comment the figures. So we must take it you back up the murder of civilians by a state.
Just continue your rant nobody listens anyway, but at least you give people a laugh from time to time.

[lucid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 01:31 PM
And you need to get a life.

Your so sorry a person that you couldn't even comment the figures. So we must take it you back up the murder of civilians by a state.
Just continue your rant nobody listens anyway, but at least you give people a laugh from time to time.
Seems like the only people that you don't label as sorry are deadbeat losers that can't make it on their own. So I'll take it as a compliment! :D

I am enjoying my life thank you. Your just upset because your life is spent under the heel of someone like me. You not listening is probably part of the reason that your a deadbeat.

As far as capital punishment goes I think that criminals should fry on certain occassions. If they do something like rape and murder a young girl and it can be proven without a doubt I would be happy to throw the switch. I do think it should be without a doubt though. The fact that some people have been freed from death row after many years is scary.

[Louis Pio]

am enjoying my life thank you. Your just upset because your life is spent under the heel of someone like me. You not listening is probably part of the reason that your a deadbeat.


:rolleyes:


As far as capital punishment goes I think that criminals should fry on certain occassions. If they do something like rape and murder a young girl and it can be proven without a doubt I would be happy to throw the switch. I do think it should be without a doubt though. The fact that some people have been freed from death row after many years is scary.


Now we were talking bout the fact that you think it is ok for Israel to kill civilians. I on the other hand don't support what Israel does nor does I support the use of suicide bombers. Anyway if we follow your logic the 9/11 attack was actually ok since you support the killing of civilians as a part of the political fight.

[lucid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 02:08 PM

am enjoying my life thank you. Your just upset because your life is spent under the heel of someone like me. You not listening is probably part of the reason that your a deadbeat.


:rolleyes:


As far as capital punishment goes I think that criminals should fry on certain occassions. If they do something like rape and murder a young girl and it can be proven without a doubt I would be happy to throw the switch. I do think it should be without a doubt though. The fact that some people have been freed from death row after many years is scary.


Now we were talking bout the fact that you think it is ok for Israel to kill civilians. I on the other hand don't support what Israel does nor does I support the use of suicide bombers. Anyway if we follow your logic the 9/11 attack was actually ok since you support the killing of civilians as a part of the political fight.
I never said I supported the killing of civilians so quit twisting my words.

Your just biased and hate israel for the same reason that you hate the US.

Israel:

Country that has a working economy that produces stuff and contributes to the world. They give more rights to Palistinians than they would get anywhere else in the middle east. Woman are not property in Israel.

Palestine:

Shithole filled with religious freaks that teach their children to hate from a very young age. It is socialy acceptable to strap explosives to your kids and send them into cafes to kill as many people as possible. Not only is it acceptable but you get the sympothy of left wing apologists and in the past recieved money from ruthless dictators. Woman are property and can be killed if they shame their family.

In order to understand why Israel is in the right it requires that you possess a small amount of logic. So, I will not expect you to understand.

[Intifada]

israel: country which violates both human rights and international law and advocates ethnic cleansing. they dont give a flying fuck for palestinians because they are inferior beings. they have the backing of america so can do what the hell they like and when they like. israelis are allowed to launch missiles into palestinian villages without thinking about the fact that they are going to kill innocents. israel can stop pregnant palestinian women from passing through a checkpoint, and kill either her or the baby, or both, because palestinians are "beasts walking on two legs." (israeli prime minister menachem begin, speech to the knesset, quoted in amnon kapeliouk, "begin and the 'beasts,"' new statesman, june 25,1982)

palestine: country full of desperate people who are being humiliated, subjugated and oppressed day in day out. all they want is self-determination and an end to occupation. israel doesn't grant them these basic human rights.

lucid, why do you think it's alright for israel to kill innocent palestinians?

[DSCH]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 06:32 AM

Israelis treat Pali kids a million times better than the Palis do.

9 in 10 palestinians killed by israel are civilians. 45% of that are children.


I guess this is what you call "a small minority":

what do you expect palestinians to do? they are not going to sit back and take the shit israel gives them. they are going to fight back. suicide bombings are wrong, but understandable.
Here are the 9 in 10 Arab "civilians" who get caught in the crossfire:

http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/hamas-human-shields.jpg

What do I expect the Jordanian and Egyptian Arabs do? Either live with Jews in peace, move back to Jordan and Egypt where they came from, or be obliterated by Hellfire missiles.

[lucid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 03:34 PM
lucid, why do you think it's alright for israel to kill innocent palestinians?
ihatebush, why do you think it's ok for Palestinians to kill innocent Israelis?

[DSCH]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 01:31 PM
And you need to get a life.

Your so sorry a person that you couldn't even comment the figures. So we must take it you back up the murder of civilians by a state.
Just continue your rant nobody listens anyway, but at least you give people a laugh from time to time.
http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=439

Statistical analysis of deaths in the Intifada. 100% caused by Arafat and Hamas.

[NYC4Ever]

If Palestinians would lay down their guns there would be peace.
If Israelis laid down their guns there would be no Israel.

[lucid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 04:28 PM
If Palestinians would lay down their guns there would be peace.
If Israelis laid down their guns there would be no Israel.
Thats a sweet quote. Mind if I use it?

[NYC4Ever]

Its the truth, spread it.

[Invader Zim]

I read that site DSCH, a very interesting read.

The critisism of the deaths are counted is most illuminating.

However can a page part of the "International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism" be expected to produce a nonbias accurate portrayal of the situation?

[Intifada]

the palestinians are asking for the mere 22% that ISRAEL has occupied since 1967. this is an illegal occupation which was condemned by the UN security council.

when saddam hussein invaded kuwait, the UN security council ordered him to get out. when he refused this order iraq was bombed so badly that thousands upon thousands of innocent people died.

when israel occupied the west bank and gaza it was also ordered by the UN security council to get out. that was more than 35 years ago. this illegal occuaption goes on to this day.

the israeli "settlers" who go to live in the OPTs are nothing but illegal immigrants. according to international law the west bank and gaza are occupied territories since israel took them through military force in 1967. these "settlements" are colonies and the people living in these colonies have no right to be there.

the israelis say they want peace. however through illegal settlement, continuing destruction and confiscation of palestinian land and bantustanisation of a peoples home, israel is destroying any hope for peace, a peace that is based upon international law and human rights. this is something the israelis refuse to accept.

[NYC4Ever]

Oh and the Palestinians are really achieving peace by hiding behind children and teaching them to kill. Israel does not trust Palestine and most of the Arab world and they have every right not to. The UN is always going to oppose Israel, they have been since the Six day war when Egypt,Syria and Jordan decided to come in and take the land. There is no such thing as a Palestinian, they're Jordanians. And Jordan will not take them back.
Barak and Clinton had a perfect deal laid out for Arrafat. Arrafat spit on the deal that would've brought peace and a two state solution. The PLO and Hamas run the show and they oppose any leader that makes peace with Israel. They want Israel to vanish and it's people to be pushed into the sea. Israel was outraged about this deal and the people elected Sharon : their George W. Bush. He has gotten plenty of critisism about the settlements and even I am opposed to it, but still can see what he's aiming at. You do not understand, The Israelis have no one. That is why they take no prisoners and practice deadly training on a daily basis. Because if they are not on watch 24/7 their whole heritage, people, and state is doomed. That would be like as if Canada gave California back to the Mexicans, or the remote desert wasteland, and they created a new state and the Californians called upon the whole US to join in battle and push the infidels into the sea. Besides with the help of Canada, they would be alone. It's a miracle Israel still even exists.

[lucid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 06:28 PM
the palestinians are asking for the mere 22% that ISRAEL has occupied since 1967. this is an illegal occupation which was condemned by the UN security council.

when saddam hussein invaded kuwait, the UN security council ordered him to get out. when he refused this order iraq was bombed so badly that thousands upon thousands of innocent people died.

when israel occupied the west bank and gaza it was also ordered by the UN security council to get out. that was more than 35 years ago. this illegal occuaption goes on to this day.

the israeli "settlers" who go to live in the OPTs are nothing but illegal immigrants. according to international law the west bank and gaza are occupied territories since israel took them through military force in 1967. these "settlements" are colonies and the people living in these colonies have no right to be there.

the israelis say they want peace. however through illegal settlement, continuing destruction and confiscation of palestinian land and bantustanisation of a peoples home, israel is destroying any hope for peace, a peace that is based upon international law and human rights. this is something the israelis refuse to accept.
I love how you can dumb down the Israeli / Palistine conflict to the point of "the palistinians are for the mere 22% that ISRAEL has occupied since 1967".

Lets forget about the fact that Israel was invaded during its infancy on multiple occassions and determined that the land in question was used as the staging area for the invasion on multiple occassions. Lets forget about the fact that Israel has agreed to %99 of Palistinian demands only to be turned down.

ihatebush did you go to school in Palistine and joing the anti-israel anti-us rallies that so big there? You act like it.

[Invader Zim]

The real authority on this subject, at least in my opinion, is che y M, you should ask him about it.

[lucid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 07:53 PM
The real authority on this subject, at least in my opinion, is che y M, you should ask him about it.
Your sure to get an unbiased oppinion from him :rolleyes:

[NYC4Ever]

I would also like to chat with this Che y M.

[Loknar]

oddly enough, the israelis won the 1948 war with soviet equipment.


and since israel has been attacked so much, they should take the land that provides good defensive cover. the arabs have no right to the pre-67 borders.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by lucid+Apr 27 2004, 07:56 PM--> (lucid @ Apr 27 2004, 07:56 PM)
[email protected] 27 2004, 07:53 PM
The real authority on this subject, at least in my opinion, is che y M, you should ask him about it.
Your sure to get an unbiased oppinion from him :rolleyes: [/b]
Well an unbias perspective on any debate such as this is impossible to obtain, every one had view and idea's on how things should be. Though of course he has a very leftist slant on the subject (like nearly all of us on this board do), he still knows his stuff.

[Intifada]

Oh and the Palestinians are really achieving peace by hiding behind children

"hiding behind children"? :huh:


teaching them to kill

suicide bombing is wrong. but it is an act which i understand. these people are desperate. suicide bombing is an act of desperation.


Israel does not trust Palestine and most of the Arab world and they have every right not to.

palestinians have the right not to trust israel.


they have been since the Six day war when Egypt,Syria and Jordan decided to come in and take the land.

israel started the six-day war, and have illegally occupied palestinian land since 1967.


Barak and Clinton had a perfect deal laid out for Arrafat. Arrafat spit on the deal that would've brought peace and a two state solution.

Why Palestinians could not accept Barak's proposal (http://www.hdip.org/Mustafa/why_palestinians_could_not_accept.htm)



They want Israel to vanish and it's people to be pushed into the sea.

there are extremist israelis who want the same thing to happen to palestinians.


the people elected Sharon

who is a war criminal.


You do not understand, The Israelis have no one.

the israelis can do what the hell they want. that is their attitude and nobody will get in their way.

hell, israel blew up an american diplomatic facility in egypt and attacked a U$ warship in international waters (the USS liberty), killing 33 and wounding 177 american sailors and the U$ did nothing about it. imagine if an arab did something like that?

"Every time we do something, you [Shimon Peres] tell me America will do this and will do that... I want to tell you something very clear: Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
— Ariel Sharon
Knesset, Tel Aviv, October 3, 2001

[NYC4Ever]

The Grand Muffti in 1944 called for the killing of all Jews in their area and that it would be great servive to Allah. They were trying to off Jews even before Israel became a state. He even cited for Adolf Hitler to come in to Palestine and begin a concentration camp.
You can say that Israel began the Six Day war (in reality it was Egypt) but in no way did Israel begin the Yom Kippur. Still to this day, Im surprised the little nation still exists.
If anyone is a war criminal its Arafat. Yet the UN does nothing to tell him so. Nearly all the UN does is bicker about America and Israel, the only two nations keeping the world from their globalized movement. I do not see any backlash coming from the UN towards China, Cuba, NK (only now cus they got their nukes),or any other country as much as America and Israel. Israel is the only democracy in the entire Mid East where Arabs, Christians and Jews from around the world aren't subject to the persecutions in the Muslim world. Iran is about to explode wanting freedom and democracy. Instead they deal with a Stalinistic regime that the UN rarely talks about unless it can help against Israel. I do not trust the UN or anything that spews from that corrupt organization. Thats the only thing Pro-Palestinians have when arguing against Israel.
The international community decried Arafat for not taking the best deal Israel had to offer. Even the UN (your bosom buddies) scolded him. Hamas and the PLO run the show and want everything the Israelis have. They believe that is their land and will not accept a two state solution, why even start a war with them before if they were looking for a two state solution?
Why doesnt Jordan take the Palestinians back and end this all? There are no Palestinians, they are Jordanians. These Hamas leaders stay in crowded Mosques, surrounded by people knowing that they are a target and when they get struck, people start yelling civilian casualties. The Israelis are showing restraint against people that want them wiped off the face of the Earth. They only strike at military targets and terrorists. They don't intentionally want to kill women and children like the Palestinians want to. Why do you think that Israeli soldiers want to intentionally kill children? Whats with you? You call all of their terrorist acts an act of desperation? Thats desperation of getting rid of the Israeli people. Don't you know that Arab nations do not risk anything? If they send people against Israel nothing happens to their nations or their people, fighting the Israeli army is an honor and killing Jews is another great honor to them. Just the other week at my Community College , a Muslim kid slit the throat of this Jewish guy because he wanted to attend his Mosque. Now you tell me who hates the other more? This made radio news but then it got changed to man slits mans throat. Look this up, Im not lying. I do not hear about Jewish attrocities against Muslims. But I bet if there was people would be all over it.
The Israelis cannot do whatever they want because they know they are on a world stage. They are showing amazing restraint. How come none of this attention was placed upon other stateless people, like the Kurds, Tibetans except for maybe the Beastie Boys? Because the Palestinians are the only ones who result to terror violence. And the Palestinians did and do have a state its called:Jordan. And their initial intention which still exists today is to put an end to the state of Israel.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/672883/posts
^ Im not a freeper, but I found these pics. Is this the desperation? They do not want a two state solution. They want death to Israel.
I suggest you put down your copy of The Protocol of the Elders of Zion, the author of that book was a holocaust denier and Noam Chomsky's favortite historian. The UN hates Israel, The EU is flooded with Islamic intervention and they side with Palestine. And please give me the link to where Sharon made this statement. We can pull the plug on Israel anytime but we dont because they are our allies and hopefully we will always stay their allies. People are caving in too much to the Palestinian cause. They choose violence, they choose the "desperation". they could easily law down their guns and there would be peace, easily. Why do you find that so difficult to believe? The Israelis are defending themselves in an area surrounded by enemies and you side with their enemies? You slide in Switzerland in place of Israel, and you would see them trying to defend themselves with Toblerones from the Arab nations.
You say that extremists want to do the same with Palestinians. Well you dont have to be an extremist to think that about Israelis, its nearly the common goal and thought. I remember joking with my muslim friend and he joked about how much Hitler was smart and how he should've finished the job he began.

[DaCuBaN]

"Every time we do something, you [Shimon Peres] tell me America will do this and will do that... I want to tell you something very clear: Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
— Ariel Sharon
Knesset, Tel Aviv, October 3, 2001


:o :o

HOLY FUCK!
he ACTUALLY said that? what a fucking retard!

[DSCH]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 08:45 PM

"Every time we do something, you [Shimon Peres] tell me America will do this and will do that... I want to tell you something very clear: Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
— Ariel Sharon
Knesset, Tel Aviv, October 3, 2001


:o :o

HOLY FUCK!
he ACTUALLY said that? what a fucking retard!
That is not a quote. That is a Big Lie. It is Muslim Sand Nazi propaganda. Only useful idiots and Nazi antisemites fall for such Nazi propaganda.

[DaCuBaN]

well come on, I know the guy's a wankshaft, so lets get some linkage to prove/disprove that quote plese :)

[Xvall]

That is not a quote. That is a Big Lie. It is Muslim Sand Nazi propaganda. Only useful idiots and Nazi antisemites fall for such Nazi propaganda.

Prove it. If it's such a big lie it should only take you a second to disprove. (Every time you say 'sand nazi' or 'dune whatever', by the way, you get closer and closer to the banning. It wouldn't be tolerated if someone called a jew they didn't like a 'beanie gestappo', so don't do the same.)

[NYC4Ever]

1967, during the Six Day War, Egypt closed the Gulf of Aqaba to Israeli shipping and ordered UN troops from the Sinai to leave. Gamel Abdel Nasser said He knew closing the the gulf would mean war with Israel..the objective would be Israels destruction. Israel struck back, with the international community knowing it was legit since it was provoked by Egypt.
Israel was willing to trade the land captured in defensive war for peace with Arab nations, but neither Palestine nor Syria was willing to co-op. Resolution 242. Notice the resolution requires occupied territories, not all of Israel. It contemplated some territories adjustments of kind at Camp david in 2000.Back then Mosh Dayan, the defense minister of Israel was waiting for King Hussien of Jordan to forgoe the exchange but then renounced all claim to the Palestinians. Israel implemented 242 and returned land to Egypt and Jordan. Finally it offered the remaining land to the Palestinians in exchange for peace. The major Arab states along with the Palestinian Authority rejected 242 in 67 because it would require peace with Israel. Arab leaders at a summit in Khartoum issued the notourious three NO's. "NO peace, NO negotiatians, and NO recognition of Israel" Now the Palestinian supporters want to come back and throw this in Israels face. Shame!
The Palestinian national charter denies Israels right to exist and pledges continued armed struggle as the only way to liberate Palestine. It defines Palestine as all of Israel ( as also all of Jordan). HAMAS charter : reinstutution of Muslim state in every inch of Palestine, Islamic Waqf. Article 13: Any compromise with Israel is in violation of Islamic law. "There is no solution to the Palestinian cause except through Jihad(struggle)". Article 22 suggests that the Jews were the real reason behind WWII and that the Communist East is a helper of the enemy. Article 27 states that the PLO is too soft and too secular, it needs to adopt Islamic law into the movement. You guys would love Article 32. While the PLO Charter is a political document which can be amended, the Hamas Charter is presented as a religious document, based on the Koran and with many references to sacred texts, which cannot be changed once it has been published. They even renounced Egypt making peace with Israel.Hamas is dangerous to peace in the middle east.
The Yom Kippur war was unjustified and an unprovoked illegal war in direct violation of UN chater ( if you wanna drag the UN in this ) Yom Kippur is the holiest day in the Jewish year. Ramadan is the holiest time in the Islamic year, and many Arab nations would see it in great disrespect on Islam if it was attacked. How hypocritical. The goal was to recover the land lost in the six day war and attack as many civilians as they could, even though attacking civilian targets is against international law and a serious war crime ( if ya wanna use the UN in this again).

http://www.hdip.org/Mustafa/why_palestinia..._not_accept.htm (http://www.hdip.org/Mustafa/why_palestinians_could_not_accept.htm) < oh and this. Why on Earth would the victorious side of a defensive war even need to bear the concerns of the losing side? So they are arguing that the offer undermines the Palestinian claim and state? There is no Palestinian state&#33; There never was. They are lucky enough to be even recognized by the UN and the EU. Where is the Tibetan state, where is the Free Kurdish state? There are far less Palestinians than Tibetans and Kurds. This would be the same as if the Japanese after losing WWII began using terror as a way to ask for peace and regain a state they never even had in the first place. For the first time in history the victor acknowledged their enemies as equal and granted Palestinian authority status to make peace with Hamas and the PLO. C&#39;mon would Spain bow down to the Basques? Or England to the IRA? Not only did they appease terrorists, they rewarded them. This world has been so simpathetic to barbaric monsters that wish for the destruction of a whole nation, that they see the PLO and Hamas attempts to kill jews as a victimized act of aggression and a "desperation". Whatever&#33; They are too arrogant to lay down their guns and surrender and then real peace can be achieved.

[Intifada]

The Grand Muffti in 1944 called for the killing of all Jews in their area and that it would be great servive to Allah. They were trying to off Jews even before Israel became a state. He even cited for Adolf Hitler to come in to Palestine and begin a concentration camp.


like i said there are extremists on both sides. talk about uzi cohen and his plans to expel all arabs from "jewish" land during the next 20 years. he says either they leave peacefully or they will be forced to leave. talk about unit 101. talk about the irgun and stern gang.


If anyone is a war criminal its Arafat.

so the massacres of shatila and sabra were not crimes against humanity? an israeli investigation found sharon, along with some others responsible for the killings of thousands of innocents in those massacres of 1982.


in no way did Israel begin the Yom Kippur.

egyptian and syrian forces were only trying to regain control of land occupied illegally by israel. israel had it coming. do you think the arabs are just going to sit back and let israel do what the hell it likes?


Israel is the only democracy in the entire Mid East where Arabs, Christians and Jews from around the world aren&#39;t subject to the persecutions in the Muslim world.

israel persecutes innocent palestinians. that is a fact and you cannot justify that persecution.


Hamas and the PLO run the show and want everything the Israelis have.

israel wants palestinian land. that is why they illegally occupied there land since 1967.


why even start a war with them before if they were looking for a two state solution?


the following is an extract from john pilger&#39;s "PALESTINE: Israel&#39;s illegal occupation". link (http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2002/511/511p14.htm)


Following peace negotiations in America in 2000, President Clinton&#39;s national security adviser, Robert Malley, who was there with Clinton, revealed that, although the Palestinians rejected certain Israeli proposals, “it could also be said that Israel rejected the unprecedented two-state solution put to them by the Palestinians, including the following provisions: a state of Israel incorporating some land captured in 1967 and including a very large majority of its settlers; the largest Jewish Jerusalem in the city&#39;s history (and) security guaranteed by a US-led international presence.”


They only strike at military targets and terrorists. They don&#39;t intentionally want to kill women and children like the Palestinians want to.

the israelis attack palestinians without batting an eyelid. they know that launching missiles at a palestinian street is going to kill innocent palestinians. yet they go ahead and bomb the place. killing knowingly is as bad as killing "intentionally".


Just the other week at my Community College , a Muslim kid slit the throat of this Jewish guy because he wanted to attend his Mosque. Now you tell me who hates the other more? This made radio news but then it got changed to man slits mans throat. Look this up, Im not lying. I do not hear about Jewish attrocities against Muslims. But I bet if there was people would be all over it.

last sunday i watched a programme called "children of abraham" on channel four (UK). it had an interview with a jewish extremist who literally attacked a palestinian toddler. it also showed clips of jews honouring the grave of a jewish man called goldstein who entered a hebron mosque and murdered praying muslims, DURING RAMADAN.


The Israelis cannot do whatever they want because they know they are on a world stage.

i repeat:

the israelis can do what the hell they want. that is their attitude and nobody will get in their way.

hell, israel blew up an american diplomatic facility in egypt and attacked a U&#036; warship in international waters (the USS liberty), killing 33 and wounding 177 american sailors and the U&#036; did nothing about it. imagine if an arab did something like that?


Im not a freeper, but I found these pics. Is this the desperation? They do not want a two state solution. They want death to Israel.


i could show you pictures of innocent palestinians killed by israelis. what is your point? if someone came to your home and took over it would you not fight back?

how come a jew living anywhere in the world can come to illegally settle in israel without any problems, yet a palestinian refugee, whose home was stolen by israelis cannot return to his home?

throughout their history jews have been primarily slaughtered by christian fundamentalists. the jews were safest when they lived under muslim rule, before the christians started the crusades. the jews in fact sought refuge in islamic spain, most famously cordoba, to seek refuge.

palestinians have the right to defend their homes and land against the zionist oppressors.

[Intifada]

1967, during the Six Day War, Egypt closed the Gulf of Aqaba to Israeli shipping and ordered UN troops from the Sinai to leave. Gamel Abdel Nasser said He knew closing the the gulf would mean war with Israel..the objective would be Israels destruction. Israel struck back, with the international community knowing it was legit since it was provoked by Egypt.


the fact is israel attacked arab airspace first. kuwait infact provoked saddam hussein to invade them. by your logic saddam was right in invading that country.


HAMAS charter : reinstutution of Muslim state in every inch of Palestine, Islamic Waqf. Article 13: Any compromise with Israel is in violation of Islamic law. "There is no solution to the Palestinian cause except through Jihad(struggle)".

MOLEDET (http://www.moledet.org.il/english/moledet.html)

they support "population transfer", which is basically a lighter way of saying ethnic cleansing.

why can&#39;t palestinians have the basic right to self-determination? why can&#39;t israel accept that they are human beings and stop violating their human rights?

the land israel is fighting on is simply not hers. it is a land illegally occupied by no means other than force. israel says it needs this land as it acts as a buffer and that they are only defending itself. similar to what the nazis need for room to expand which it used as an excuse to invade poland. israeli troops would leave within hours if the U&#036; stopped it&#39;s aid to this illegal israeli military campaign. american taxpayers are sending israel around 2 billion dollars per year in military aid alone. this is in addition to 720 million in economic aid. without america israel would be nothing.

[lucid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2004, 05:43 PM

1967, during the Six Day War, Egypt closed the Gulf of Aqaba to Israeli shipping and ordered UN troops from the Sinai to leave. Gamel Abdel Nasser said He knew closing the the gulf would mean war with Israel..the objective would be Israels destruction. Israel struck back, with the international community knowing it was legit since it was provoked by Egypt.


the fact is israel attacked arab airspace first. kuwait infact provoked saddam hussein to invade them. by your logic saddam was right in invading that country.

Dude you need to get a new source for info.

Take these off&#33; (http://home.flash.net/~dkane/blinkers.html)

[DaCuBaN]

the fact is israel attacked arab airspace first. kuwait infact provoked saddam hussein to invade them. by your logic saddam was right in invading that country.


I don&#39;t know about kuwait provoking saddam... I do know saddam, who was aligned with the US at that time, looked to the US administration for legitimacy for his invasion, and assumed the silence from the US to be his thumbs up.

[NYC4Ever]

Gimme the links man, what are you waiting for? Israel is fighting for its self-determinantion. This is growing into an extremist war and the Palestinians need to give up their guns and the Israelis will give them back thier land they occupied. IF they dont give up the land then go ahead and destroy Israel, but until then how do you explain the martyers? What madmen send their kids to die? So you think that the ISraelis dont have the right to expell Arabs? Hmm, I wonder why they dont trust them? Yet Arabs still live in Israel with no problem.
Since 1967 Israel has been trying to give the land back, but the Palestinians want it all. And they will not get it all. Israel cannot do whatever it wants, believe me the whole world wants Israel gone for peace in the mid east. When really it should be Palestine giving up the fight and acknowledging the state of ISrael. I am opposed to the settlements, I&#39;ll grant ya that one. But when they destroy the homes, they destroy terrorist homes in connection to a recent or foiled attack, as a warning not to abide terrorists. Now, you ask why didnt the US destroy Timothy Mchveighs house, bcause his parents were&#39;nt encouraging him to commit acts like so many extremist pics show us.
Again I ask, where is the Kurdish state? The IRA state and the Basque State? Why isnt the UN preasuring for a Basque seat in the UN? Why doesnt it acknowledge their charter and all of their acts of terror as desperation against the occupation of Basque land? The Jews are practicing their right of self determination as much as you think the PLO and Hamas are. You do not think Isreali civilians die too? You think its only on the Palestinan side, huh? And if the Jews die its their fault and they deserve it, just like Americans deserve to be killed too.
You know I&#39;ve always said it before: That communists and socies do not care about Allah, care to know if its the right religion, or anything. they just know its the best weapon against America and Israel. Thats why they always side with fundamentalists or the "victims", and we&#39;ve always had it coming. You guys wanna join in to get a piece of that revolutionary action, molotov cocktail and all.

Gimme some facts where ISrael persecutes innocent Palestinians, in ISRAEL. If you&#39;re a Jew in an Arab country you are nothing more than a target. So dont go double stating here.
http://www.moledet.org.il/english/refugee.html < So this is you&#39;re idea of government ethnic cleansing? Its a peace initiative. It calls for no armed struggle like Hamas does. Arafat, as Forbes reported, has a network of 300 million dollars and does not finace even one stinking primitive hospital in Palestine. Israelis even offer to help victims in any blast by them or the Palestinians, by helicopter to their hospitals, but Palestinians refuse to seek help from the enemy. The hospitals in ISrael are non-political. Now is that being persecuted? During 1948 and the Six Day WAr Arabs in Israel were let freely to flee the nation, and many did. While Arab nations killed any Israeli trying to flee Israel. Israel will not accept the Palestinian refugees as much even Jordan (their own state) wont even allow them back nor any Arab country. So let me get this straight. You want to end the occupation of Muslim land, when Muslims own nearly all of the middle east and wont even take their own refugees back?
http://www.moledet.org.il/english/dvsg.html < again from your own link.
http://www.moledet.org.il/english/public.html < not even all of the Israeli population support this party anyways if you want to vilanize it. While nearly all Palestinians recognize the PLO as thier Authority and Hamas as their Islamic Law chapter. Sharon is only in charge because after Barak was spat upon by Arafat during the Camp David meeting, the Israeli public had enough and soon after the proposed signing, a Palestinian suicide bomber killed innocent Israelis. Ariel Sharon, a hawkish general, was voted in because the Israelis had enough. IF anyone is in desperation, its the Israelis who have tried peace. You try and get America to make peace with Osama Bin Laden. Try to get Spain to make peace with the ETA ( but they probably would now with their new PM). Sharon is their hawkish nationalistic general of a PM who is leading the Israelis from death to their state. The war criminals are the PLO, Hamas and Arafat, who was awarded 3 peace prizes&#33;&#33; Arafat knew that once Sharon was in place and the anomosity grew within the Israelis that the international community would see Israel as an enemy towards peace. These are the same parallels within the American conflict with terror since we so openly support Israel. America defends itself, engages at military targets, occupies them. To the world America should appease the terrorists, are killing civilians, and illegaly occupying land. All of this backed up by the UN. The logic for the world is that: America is the "imperialist enemy", the terrorists are freedom fighters and we did are not preventing another 9/11 by attacking Saddam. All of the attention you give these terrorists and their ego, they would have no fear of bombing right here in our country and then everyone would still blame Bush. Just admit it that you want that to happen. Just admit that you check every single day on Yahoo news to see if this Iraq is failing and to show all of the casualties of war to prove Bush, Republicans, and America wrong&#33;

[DaCuBaN]

You can&#39;t trust an Isreali source on Israeli news, just as you can&#39;t trust british and american sources for their respective countries news. You need to try and always find as unbiased reports as possible - something that&#39;s very difficult if you&#39;re in the middle of the event yourself.

That said, I primarily agree with your argument. The Israeli government has taken many steps over the years to try and reconcile with the Palestinians, who have been extremist in most of their methods of &#39;protest&#39; to say the least. That by no means excuses the Israeli establishment for their actions - after all, aren&#39;t they supposed to be the civilised democratic state here?

[NYC4Ever]

I did not post those links though. The guy I was debating with posted that link up and Im using it against his arguments. I also agree that with the coming in of Sharon that Israel took a turn to the offensive as well. Now, they do go to extremes and I agree that the US needs to come in and control him. But in no way should recognize the PLO, Hamas, and Arafat as legit. The people as a whole do deserve a state, I know this. Yet, so do the Israelis which the PLO and HAmas are dying to destroy and deny its acknowledgement. The compromise was really the Barak Clinton at Camp David. Peace was in his hands and he blew it. Why? To strike Israel and make room for the hawkish general Ariel Sharon. The cause of the Palestinians burst into the scene as a must for world peace and Israel became the enemy. The PLO want all of Israel and will not stop. Israel under Sharon is no saint but they were the ones pushed to the extreme and are using every excess force to defend their land. A two state solution is the only solution just like the Peel Commision states, and the PLO, HAmas and Arafat must surrender or its a never ending bloodshed. Like I state before if the PLO surrenders and Israel doesn&#39;t give the land back then you can eliminate the state of Israel.

[Intifada]

Israel is fighting for its self-determinantion. This is growing into an extremist war and the Palestinians need to give up their guns and the Israelis will give them back thier land they occupied.

israel has self-determination. palestinians do not. they are fighting for freedom and against oppression, similar to the jews resisting the roman empire, except the palestinians aren&#39;t going to wait for the arrival of a messiah.

israel has to give up its guns and aggressive policies. palestinian terrorism is a direct result of israeli attrocities.


Yet Arabs still live in Israel with no problem...Gimme some facts where ISrael persecutes innocent Palestinians


non-jews are not able to buy or lease land in israel. jews from any country in the world are guaranteed citizenship in israel, while the palestinians are oppressed and persecuted.

israel allots 85% of water supplies to jews, while 15% goes to palestinians. in hebron (a khalil), 85% of the water is set aside for about 400 jewish "settlers", while the remaining 15% is distributed among hebron&#39;s 120, 000 palestinians?

from john pilger&#39;s "palestine is still the issue"


In Gaza, five years ago, an amusement park opened beside the sea. It was the only one in a deeply impoverished place populated mainly by refugees whose families were forced off their land or out of their villages by the Israelis.

“At first, it was very successful”, said Walid Al Dirawi, who looks after the deserted ruin of rusting rides and dodgem cars. “Then the shooting started from across the road. The Israeli settlers and soldiers shot it up every weekend, and of course people stayed away.” Behind the dodgems is a wall pock-marked with bullet holes, like a shooting gallery.

The “Jewish settlers” are mostly ultra-religious Israelis or immigrants from Russia, America and elsewhere, who are subsidised by the government to live in what are colonial fortresses in the midst of Palestinian communities, guarded by the Israeli army.



Since 1967 Israel has been trying to give the land back, but the Palestinians want it all.

give me one example of israel offering palestinians all the land back, that they have illegally occupied, to the palestinians.


Israel cannot do whatever it wants

yes it can. it can refuse to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and ban inspectors from their site. it can attack and kill american sailors. it can assassinate politicians. it can torture palestinian prisoners. it can demolish palestinian homes. it can kill pregnant women at checkpoints.


where is the Kurdish state? The IRA state and the Basque State?

you cannot compare any of these issues to that of the palestinian-israeli conflict.


You do not think Isreali civilians die too? You think its only on the Palestinan side, huh?

how come nearly 3000 palestinians (9 in 10 of whom are civilians) have been killed in the latest intifada by israel, and more than 800 israelis have been killed? it is not because israel is the better killer.


So this is you&#39;re idea of government ethnic cleansing? Its a peace initiative. It calls for no armed struggle like Hamas does.

moledet calls for the expulsion of arabs from "jewish" land. you complain that arabs don&#39;t want jews there. why don&#39;t you talk about uzi cohen? like i said there are idiots on both sides.


Israelis even offer to help victims in any blast by them or the Palestinians, by helicopter to their hospitals,

that is crap. they stop palestinian women who are pregnant from passing roadblocks. they kill babies and women. they don&#39;t even allow ambulances through. i have spoken to a paletinian doctor. she had to give birth to a baby at a checkpoint because israli soldiers didn&#39;t allow them to get to the nearest hospital. israel treats arabs worse than animals.


While Arab nations killed any Israeli trying to flee Israel.

in july 1948, 50000 palestinians were forcefully expelled under direct orders from ben gurion from the towns of lydda and ramle. women, children and the elderly were forced to march towards jordan. many died from exhaustion and exposure on the march.


soon after the proposed signing, a Palestinian suicide bomber killed innocent Israelis.

what is your point? palestinians were right in refusing that so called "generous offer". during oslo israelis were demolishing palestinian homes.


IF anyone is in desperation, its the Israelis who have tried peace.

israel has said that it has tried to make peace, but the fact is israel does not accept a peace nased upon international law and human rights.


The war criminals are the PLO, Hamas and Arafat

so shatila and sabra were not war crimes? is that what you are saying? the only war crimes being committed are israeli violations of human rights and international law.


America defends itself, engages at military targets, occupies them

america attacks other countries. america indiscriminately kills innocents. america is a terrorist nation. america tortures prisoners.


The guy I was debating with posted that link up and Im using it against his arguments.

so you think i am going to accept arguments from the moledet website? lol.



in no way should recognize the PLO, Hamas, and Arafat as legit.

why should palestinians recognise israeli politicians and their government, which has and continues to violate intenational law and human rights.


The compromise was really the Barak Clinton at Camp David. Peace was in his hands and he blew it

are you going to respond to this or not?


Following peace negotiations in America in 2000, President Clinton&#39;s national security adviser, Robert Malley, who was there with Clinton, revealed that, although the Palestinians rejected certain Israeli proposals, “it could also be said that Israel rejected the unprecedented two-state solution put to them by the Palestinians, including the following provisions: a state of Israel incorporating some land captured in 1967 and including a very large majority of its settlers; the largest Jewish Jerusalem in the city&#39;s history (and) security guaranteed by a US-led international presence.”

from john pilger&#39;s "palestine is still the issue".

[Intifada]

and assumed the silence from the US to be his thumbs up.


it wasn&#39;t just silence. saddam had a meeting with u&#036; ambassador april glaspie who was sympathetic to their case to got war with kuwait, and gave saddam approval to go ahead with the planned invasion.

[DaCuBaN]

where is the Kurdish state? The IRA state and the Basque State?

The Kurds and the Basque deserve a state too... what&#39;s you point?
as for the IRA, that&#39;s a VERY different conflict.

*EDIT*


Israelis even offer to help victims in any blast by them or the Palestinians, by helicopter to their hospitals

I don&#39;t know much about this, but in my last years at school they organised a trip to Israel. When in Jerusalem there was a battalion staying in the same hostel as us (they were on parade duty, as it was during a time of relative peace). Most of the soldiers spoke good english, with a few exceptional. Of those few one spoke (with such a look in his eyes you couldn&#39;t but help get a lump in your throat) about the mistreatment of the palestinains by many of his peers.

In short, don&#39;t write off the Israeli peoples... most wish to see an end to this, and several in particular whom I spoke to (all soldiers, conscription of course) didn&#39;t understand why the Israeli government didn&#39;t simply submit.

You must remember as well, an Israeli conscript has to carry his weapon at all times or face imprisonment for seven years - So you can imagine how many people walk the streets armed. It makes the whole situation absurd - especially considering only the minority are actually on duty when they are armed, so you never really know who is the &#39;enemy&#39; anyway

[Loknar]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2004, 05:43 PM
the fact is israel attacked arab airspace first. kuwait infact provoked saddam hussein to invade them. by your logic saddam was right in invading that country.

Yeah , after diplomatic options were exhausted, after 6 divisions totaling 80,000 men entrenched them selves in the Sinai, after the entire Arab world voiced support for nasser, after nasser made countless proclamations to drive the jews into the sea, after the soviet union armed the Arabs to the teeth so much that they out-numbered Israel 3 - 1 in land and air (btw, this was before America gave Israel significant aid), after the straits of tiran were closed which is a violation of international law. ect.



you haven’t studied the history of the 6 day war have you?

[DaCuBaN]

btw, this was before America gave Israel significant aid

Yeah... they had the brits then :rolleyes:

Israel was never meant to be as far as I am concerned... it&#39;s created far more problems than it has ever solved. Now we&#39;re stuck with it and there doesn&#39;t seem to be an obvious solution anywhere near.

[Loknar]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 01:04 AM
Yeah... they had the brits then :rolleyes:

Israel was never meant to be as far as I am concerned... it&#39;s created far more problems than it has ever solved. Now we&#39;re stuck with it and there doesn&#39;t seem to be an obvious solution anywhere near.
Actually the only ally Israel actually had in this time period was the French, and they weren’t interested in aligning them selves with Israel like they did in 1956. DeGualle wanted to patch things up with the Arab world. (because of what happened in Algeria)




The Jewish state is smaller than Vermont, the Arabs have the entire mid-east. I dont think it&#39;s asking too much. lets not forget who fired the first shot.

[Intifada]

Yeah , after diplomatic options were exhausted, after 6 divisions totaling 80,000 men entrenched them selves in the Sinai, after the entire Arab world voiced support for nasser, after nasser made countless proclamations to drive the jews into the sea, after the soviet union armed the Arabs to the teeth so much that they out-numbered Israel 3 - 1 in land and air (btw, this was before America gave Israel significant aid), after the straits of tiran were closed which is a violation of international law. ect.


cut the crap.

"In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him." - Menachem Begin, Israeli Cabinet minister in 1967, in the New York Times, August 21, 1982

"I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to The Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it." -- Yitzhak Rabin, Israel&#39;s Chief of Staff in 1967, in Le Monde, February 28, 1968

"Many of the firefights with the Syrians were deliberately provoked by Israel, and the kibbutz residents who pressed the Government to take the Golan Heights did so less for security than for the farmland. They didn&#39;t even try to hide their greed for the land. We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn&#39;t possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn&#39;t shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot...And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that&#39;s how it was... The Syrians, on the fourth day of the war, were not a threat to us" -- Moshe Dayan, Defense Minister in 1967, in the New York Times, May 11, 1997


The Jewish state is smaller than Vermont, the Arabs have the entire mid-east. I dont think it&#39;s asking too much. lets not forget who fired the first shot.

the only arguments for the existence for the state of israel are biblical.

[Loknar]

IhateBush:


could you post a biblography for those quiotes?


I know israel sent tractors into the DZ on occasion to provoke the Syrians, however it was the Syrians who were openly supporting al-fatah. Al-Fatah an other Palestinian terrorist groups claimed over a hundred attacks on Israeli settlements per year. Syria on countless occasion shelled Israeli settlements from the Golan heights for no reason at all. they were even working on diverting the Jordan river, one of israel&#39;s water sources, which is a cause for war in it self.

and israel&#39;s existance isnt from the Bible, iy was largely because everywhere jews go they are treated like crap.

[Intifada]

could you post a biblography for those quiotes?


its from wikipedia, but the source of quotes is posted in the original post.


I know israel sent tractors into the DZ on occasion to provoke the Syrians, however it was the Syrians who were openly supporting al-fatah. Al-Fatah an other Palestinian terrorist groups claimed over a hundred attacks on Israeli settlements per year. Syria on countless occasion shelled Israeli settlements from the Golan heights for no reason at all. they were even working on diverting the Jordan river, one of israel&#39;s water sources, which is a cause for war in it self.


lets just forget about the ambiguous events of the six-day war for a moment.

israel began an illegal occupation of palestinian land in 1967. article 47 of the fourth geneva convention, relevant to the protection of civilians in time of war, stipulates that any annexation of occupied territory by the occupying power is illegal.

thousands of palestinians became refugees in 1967, as a result of the occupation.

in november of that year the UN security council introduced resolution 242. this states "the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war". it also ordered israel to withdraw from the OPTs. to this day israel does not accept 242 which is a major aspect in the peace process.

article 49 of the fourth geneva convention states that "the occupying power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies". however after the war in 1967, israel began planning and building settlements in the OPTs.

since then the UN has adopted more resolutions concerning the six-say war. this includes resolutions 446, 452 and 465.


and israel&#39;s existance isnt from the Bible, iy was largely because everywhere jews go they are treated like crap

zionist comes from the word zion (one of names of jerusalem as mentioned in the bible). to displaced jews zion was a symbol of the holy land and return to it as promised by god in prophecies in the bible.

[Osman Ghazi]

The Jewish state is smaller than Vermont, the Arabs have the entire mid-east. I dont think it&#39;s asking too much. lets not forget who fired the first shot.


Okay, well why don&#39;t you give up Vermont to the Native Americans. After all it&#39;s just tiny little Vermont and the Americans have a whole country anyways. I don&#39;t think it&#39;s asking too much. Let&#39;s not forget who fired the first shot.
Not an appitizing thought? Well then why would it be appealing to Arabs to do the same thing?

[thatCHEr]

Yes, instead of using shields to prevent themselves being attacked, the Israeli military should just rush them WW2 style. Sure it will mean more people getting killed, but Israelis getting killed is a good thing, right?

[Intifada]

Yes, instead of using shields to prevent themselves being attacked, the Israeli military should just rush them WW2 style. Sure it will mean more people getting killed, but Israelis getting killed is a good thing, right?

so palestinians are worth less than israelis?

fuck you.

[NYC4Ever]

I hate Bush, you must think that the PLO and Hamas are these innocent little victims that are a product of their enviroment. There are no innocent in this but I support the Israelis because they have the right to exist as much as the Palestinians do. If you weren&#39;t up to your neck in PLO propaganda and terrorist opposition you could see that the corrupt Arab nations do not give a damn about the Palestinians but milk it to no end.
I know that the Israeli soldiers mistreat and harass some Palestinians because they are also at desperation. And their hawkish general of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is a heartless monger. But they are at their wits end with these people who will not for the life of them put down their guns. This is where it gets horribly political.If Israel gives up thats the end of them, because I know that the PLO does not want a two state solution with compromises of any kind until they get all of Israel. I mean you defend the Palestinians so much it seems as though you dont even want Israel there. You cannot appease or reward terrorism. Its a standoff. You guys are getting so outrageously unmoral that you cannot even see the difference between terrorism and a nation defending itself. How can you possibly ignore the HAMAS charter? You still did not difuse that, and how they want peace with Israel. All you want to see is an oppressive harsh military Zionist plot and thats all this argument is going to base itself around. Put down the Protocol of the Elders of Zion and read some real history:

Oct. 7, 1985- 4 PFLP terrorist sieze Italian cruiser Achille Lauro in the Med. Sea. One American killed.
Dec. 27, 1985- Abu Nidal terrorist attack passinger terminals at Rome and Vienna. 16 killed
Sept. 6 1986- Abdul ops in Instanbul killing 2 worshippers. Pan Am flight in KArachi 22 dead
Dec. 22, 1987- UN security council resolution condemns Israeli practices.
Sept. 13, 1988- Arafat speaks at Socialist Group Euro Parliament
May, 17, 1992- Hezbollah claims responsibility for a blast that levels Israeli embassy in Buenos Aires. 29 killed.
Sept 13, 1993- Arafat signs Oslo Accords
Sept 17, 1993 - Arafat recieves UNESCOS peace prize&#33;&#33;
Feb. 25 , 1996 - Hamas blows up bus killing 23, one Palestinian, two American.
Dec. 10, 1997 - Arafat again recieve peace prize&#33;

^ Thats just one decade. Theres plenty more where that came from. And still Araft recieves peace prizes. All that mangy little scumbag does is gather sympathy for the cause and expolit it. The EU and UN keep appeasing the terrorists and rewarding them. Meanwhile both Israelis and Palestinians are at thier wits end killing each other til one lays down their guns. I think it should be the PLO and Hamas that lays down thier guns, because they have nothing to lose. The Israelis do. And like I&#39;ve said before if the Israelis do not give their land back then you can talk all the shit about Israel you want and dismantle the state.
As for now you are the most sickening human Ive ever debated with acutally taking one side so whole heartedly that you&#39;d want to see the demise of an entire nation. You actually took the PLO and HAMAS seriously, as much as the corrupt UN and the EU do? You&#39;re brainwashed. I hate how people take the side of these "victims" that brainwash little kids and woman into being martyers. They keep getting funded by rogue Arab states and Arafat, when they could easily lay down thier guns and surrender to Israel or actually take these refugees in. Then the world can see just how "monsterous" Israel really is. As for now, the more and more you tell me about how Israelis are mistreating Palestinians the more and more I tell you that its gone political now. I really wish I could defend the Israelis like you defend the Palestinians, but I cant because they are at fault too. And I knew you would drag in the number of deaths on one side to to back up the other. Thats sick man, so who ever has the most dead is the real victor, huh? Thats exactly the political ploy thats being used around the world. And People still excuse the "desperate" acts and do not see things for how they really are. Why dont people encourage them to give in and give their guns for peaceful protest? Oh wait, I know what you&#39;re going to type next, that they&#39;ve tried that, huh? WEll go ahead and post your claims because I can post claims of terrorist acts in Israel dating back from 1968. The PLO had their chance with Barak but they got too greedy and no matter what you or they claim, they do not have a say&#33; They would rather have more bloodshed rather than compromising and admitting defeat. Arafat knew that Israel would have enough and elect Sharon with his hawkish mentality and show no mercy to the Palestinians until they&#39;re forced to surrender. I will not cave in like you have and but into the PLO bias and leftist propaganda til they lay down their guns. They&#39;re only hurting themselves, and Israel should be controlled, I admit.
I&#39;ve read all of the resolutions that the UN passed against Israel and actually have the list saved. I could pull it out for you if you want? Again, it just proves the backwards terrorist appeasement from the shoddy UN. Israel complied with 242 grrating the land back to Jordan, but Jordan vanquished all land on over to the Palestinians, thats when the real shit hit the fan. The Palestinians Authority degraded into nothing more than corrupt terrorists that use their own deaths to gain sympathy. It wasn&#39;t until the election of Sharon (which I hope he will be removed soon) that Israel went on with the attack and became the "oppressor".
the only arguments for the existence for the state of israel are biblical.

But even all that is a side issue. The real issue is that THERE WAS NEVER AN INDEPENDENT ARAB STATE CALLED PALESTINE. At best, Palestine was a backwoods Turkish province. Hence, there were no pilgrimages to the “holy” Al Asqa mosque. Jerusalem is not the third holiest site of Islam. Mecca and Medina are holy; Jerusalem was never mentioned in the same breath until the liberation of the Temple Mount by the Israelis in 1967. If you wanna get Biblical:

# of times Jerusalem mentioned in Old Testament: 649
# of times Jerusalem mentioned in New Testament: 145
# of times Jerusalem mentioned in the Koran: ZERO

These double standards are so Politically motivated and horribly misunderstood that the ones catching all of the fire are The Isrealis and The Palestinians. You guys only want peace unless its at the expense of Israel or America. Forget all of the other horrible things other countries have done, as long as America and Israel are defeated is when there will "truly" be world peace. Right? If you really wanted peace you would stop believing all of the Palestinian Authorities claims, ask for them do dismantle their guns, stop brainwashing with armed Jihad, and surrrender. Then, and only then will you actually have a stronger case for the Palestinians. For now you just have mis-guided quotes, revisionist history, isolated Israeli mistreatment of Palestinians which should be handeld but sadly isnt, and the utter hatred of the two sides, one which you defend more than the other. Other than that you simply swallowed the Zionist plot hook line and sinker. Collectivists, appeasers, and corrupt politicians are handling this very well and selling it to colleges everywhere and socies/commies every where, because it is the best weapon against America and Israel. I wonder what would have happened if the US never defended Israel? Would the UN, the EU and Arafat have so much corruption swinging between them? I doubt it. Extremist Islam is so dangerous that we cannot even discuss without being called an intolerant biggot. Why cant we address this, instead you people appease it and its the victimized aggression and we deserve it, huh?
You guys and especially IHATEBUSH, run around with PLO flags at anti-war marches, giving these people hope that they can win against a powerful army using terrorism targeted at innocent civilians. Thats worse than Sharon excusing Israeli soldiers taking revenge on what was once done to their towns. Its bad both ways. But it makes me sick they way you encourage them with PLO support htat actually pushed the Israeli army to go to extreme measure to try and get them to surrender. Instead you guys wing this around and call it "imperialism and colony building". Stop it. If Israel wanted to they could have the occupied territories wiped clean of Palestinians. And if anyone said anything they could nuke em. Instead people support them and harbor these dillusional CHE and Batista revoulution mentalities of battling against a big foe, molotov cocktail and all.

[Loknar]

israel began an illegal occupation of palestinian land in 1967. article 47 of the fourth geneva convention, relevant to the protection of civilians in time of war, stipulates that any annexation of occupied territory by the occupying power is illegal.



But the territory was never annexed by Israel. In any event, Israel should annex parts of the west bank, I am talking about parts for defensive purposes.



thousands of palestinians became refugees in 1967, as a result of the occupation.



This wasn’t exactly forced upon them by Israel, it was Jordan who attacked Israel in 1967. refugees will appear in war, it is unavoidable.



in november of that year the UN security council introduced resolution 242. this states "the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war". it also ordered israel to withdraw from the OPTs. to this day israel does not accept 242 which is a major aspect in the peace process.


Israel also with-drew from the Sinai and Gaza strip in 1956, because of international support. However that support virtually disappeared by the t time of the 6 day war. Te British helped Israel somewhat in the 6 day war, but it was nothing compared to the aid the soviets were dumping on Syria and Egypt. Could you blame Israel for ignoring the resolution?



article 49 of the fourth geneva convention states that "the occupying power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies". however after the war in 1967, israel began planning and building settlements in the OPTs.


What you state is indeed factual. I wouldn’t in a million years dispute this with you, or even justify Israeli settlements.



since then the UN has adopted more resolutions concerning the six-say war. this includes resolutions 446, 452 and 465.

This just goes to show how useless the UN has been over t he years. The UN is going down a sad road.



zionist comes from the word zion (one of names of jerusalem as mentioned in the bible). to displaced jews zion was a symbol of the holy land and return to it as promised by god in prophecies in the bible.


This may be so, however there is also historical reasons for their claim on the land. They have been there for 2,000 years. Most of the Jewish population in 70 AD was dispersed to places as distant as China over a very long period of time. and in a ll of t these places they were treated like dirt. The Jews need a home land. The arabs and Jews both descend from Abraham, Jews (ethnic) even had a large roll in the foundation of Islam.

Just to touch on the Six Day war. I know Nasser never wanted war, However the reason he demanded UNEF withdraw, and blockaded the straits of Tiran was ;largely because the KGB informed his government that Israel was going to attack Syria, which turned out to be a lie. The soviet motive is unclear even to this d ay, but it was probably an attempt to destroy Nasser and pass on the torch of the mid-east most influential leader to Assad of Syria.

[Intifada]

But the territory was never annexed by Israel. In any event, Israel should annex parts of the west bank, I am talking about parts for defensive purposes.

israel occupied palestinian land, a land illegally occupied by no means other than force. israel says it needs this land as it acts as a buffer and that they are only defending itself. similar to what the nazis need for room to expand which it used as an excuse to invade poland. unless israel accepts that they must return the land to palestinians, there will be no peace.


This wasn’t exactly forced upon them by Israel, it was Jordan who attacked Israel in 1967. refugees will appear in war, it is unavoidable.


"In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him." - Menachem Begin, Israeli Cabinet minister in 1967, in the New York Times, August 21, 1982

the israelis continued a systematic policy of deportation and forced migration for years after the war. an annual average of 21000 palestinians were displaced from their homes, and they are still, to this day, prevented from returning.


Could you blame Israel for ignoring the resolution?

if they ignore the resolution, then israel is destroying any hope for peace.


This just goes to show how useless the UN has been over t he years. The UN is going down a sad road.

this is the result of israel&#39;s defiance of international law. nobody will confront this. in the UN general assembly, there have been around 450 resolutions calling for justice for palestinians. nothing has been done about this. instead the west continues to arm israel.

[Intifada]

I know that the Israeli soldiers mistreat and harass some Palestinians because they are also at desperation.

desparate for what?


But they are at their wits end with these people who will not for the life of them put down their guns.

why should they put down their guns? they ae being humiliated and oppressed. you have no right to tell them to put down their guns. israel must end its illegal occupation of palestinian land and its oppression of palestinians. until that happens palestinians will not put down their guns.


because I know that the PLO does not want a two state solution with compromises of any kind until they get all of Israel.

in 1988, the PLO recognised the state of israel and called for a resolution to the conflict, based on international legality.

in this comprimise, the PLO agreed to an independent palestinian state on 22% of historic palestine for the sake of a long lasting peace.


Oct. 7, 1985- 4 PFLP terrorist sieze Italian cruiser Achille Lauro in the Med. Sea. One American killed.
Dec. 27, 1985- Abu Nidal terrorist attack passinger terminals at Rome and Vienna. 16 killed
Sept. 6 1986- Abdul ops in Instanbul killing 2 worshippers. Pan Am flight in KArachi 22 dead
Dec. 22, 1987- UN security council resolution condemns Israeli practices.
Sept. 13, 1988- Arafat speaks at Socialist Group Euro Parliament
May, 17, 1992- Hezbollah claims responsibility for a blast that levels Israeli embassy in Buenos Aires. 29 killed.
Sept 13, 1993- Arafat signs Oslo Accords
Sept 17, 1993 - Arafat recieves UNESCOS peace prize&#33;&#33;
Feb. 25 , 1996 - Hamas blows up bus killing 23, one Palestinian, two American.
Dec. 10, 1997 - Arafat again recieve peace prize&#33;


zionist massacres from 1937 to 1994 (http://en.falastiny.net/books/massacres/massacres1.htm)


They keep getting funded by rogue Arab states and Arafat, when they could easily lay down thier guns and surrender to Israel or actually take these refugees in.

the israelis actually funded and supported hamas, back when aarafat was the bad guy.


Thats sick man, so who ever has the most dead is the real victor, huh?

this coming from the person who tried to shock me by giving a link to dead israelis. :rolleyes:

i cannot be arsed reading the rest of your ranting and raving. you have not actually answered any of my questions and the facts that i have produced. instead you go and attack islam and complain how the palestinians do not want peace. this conflict has nothing to do with religion. its about occupation and a people&#39;s fight for freedom. you haven&#39;t given me any facts and figures to back up your ridiculous claims. shut the fuck up and read.

do you know what it is like being oppressed and being deprived of your freedom and live under occupation?

i would think not, so don&#39;t talk fucking crap about how palestinians should lay down their guns.

"israelis must abandon the myth that it is possible to have peace and occupation at the same time, that peaceful coexistance is possible between slave and master." - marwan barghouti

(marwan barghouti is a palestinian man who has been illegally imprisoned by israel without being charged or tried since april of 2002 and has been tortured and mistreated.)

[thatCHEr]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 07:36 PM

Yes, instead of using shields to prevent themselves being attacked, the Israeli military should just rush them WW2 style. Sure it will mean more people getting killed, but Israelis getting killed is a good thing, right?

so palestinians are worth less than israelis?

fuck you.
Nobody is forcing the Palestinian terrorists to fire upon the Israeli military. I think you might be having some trouble understanding what I wrote. Here, I&#39;ll quote it for you.

Lets go through this together, shall we, so you don&#39;t get any more confused.

&#39;Yes, instead of using shields to prevent themselves being attacked[what is being inferred here is that the Palestines attack Israelis. I also sarcastically remark that the Israelis should not defend themselves, inferring that by using human shields, the Israelis are defending themselves.]
the israeli military should just rush them WW2 style.[what I do here is point out how in the past, when there has been less advanced means of defending soldiers, more people have died. This also combined with the previous part, gives the point that Israelis will die less if they use human shields.]
sure it will mean more people getting killed[I again repeat the point that by using shields, the Israelis will not die as much]
but israelis getting killed is a good thing, right.[here I note how you appear to be biased towards the Palestinians in your viewpoint.]

So, actually, it seems like you incorrectly assumed I support Palestinians getting killed over Israelis.

[thatCHEr]

As for the 1967 border, this has been gone through with you already on UP ihatebush. It is just where the arab troops happened to be when they decided to surrender to the Israelis. It&#39;s meaningless.

[Intifada]

Palestines

i think you&#39;ll find that they are called palestinians.


As for the 1967 border, this has been gone through with you already on UP ihatebush. It is just where the arab troops happened to be when they decided to surrender to the Israelis. It&#39;s meaningless.

what happened in 1967 was that israel occupied palestinian land through force. this occupation is illegal, and all buildings of settlements in those terrirories are illegal too.

[NYC4Ever]

There is no point trying to disect your claims. You&#39;re infested with PLO propaganda. You take up their side like there is absolutley nothing wrong with thier "desperate" acts. I admit that there have been mistreatments on both sides but again you side with the one you want to join with. GO and fight, see for yourself how much of a useless over politisized massacre this has all ended up. Its nothing but a giant standoff. The Palestinians lost. They should give up their guns and have no say what so ever when it comes to compromises. Israel should give them back the lands they were going to give them at Camp David. End of story.

[Intifada]

There is no point trying to disect your claims.

my claims are backed up with facts, unlike yours.


You&#39;re infested with PLO propaganda

no i&#39;m not. i have given you facts and nothing but facts. you are the one who has been blinded by zionist propaganda and cannot see the truth.


They should give up their guns and have no say what so ever when it comes to compromises.

they will not put down their guns unless israel stops treating the palestinian people like shit. peace will only come when justice is given to palestinians. peace will only exist when the occupation ends.


Israel should give them back the lands they were going to give them at Camp David.

the reality of barak&#39;s "generous offer" (http://www.mediamonitors.net/gushshalom1.html)

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 06:02 PM
lets just forget about the ambiguous events of the six-day war for a moment.


Ignoring everything else, because I dont necessarily disagree with you, the six day war started because the arab states mobalized against Israel, at her borders, and because Eygit illegally closed the Straits of Tiran and by doing so cut off the port of port of Eilat and blockaded it. In 1956 after the Suez war, Israel actually said that this action would be construed as an act of war. So really, I dont think anyone can actually pin the blame of Israel for that war. Israel has a catalog of crimes, but unjustly causing wars is not one of them.

It also pains me to see people say that Israel illegally occupies land, which may well be the case, but the reason they have anexed and occupied this land is because Arab nations were shelling Israeli town from that land, and building up armies on this land, while being aided and abbeted by the local people.

Not to say israel is right to still be there, but the Arabs nations definatly should not be complaining after the shit they pulled.

[Osman Ghazi]

Oh, yeah and America&#39;s wars were all justified too because they should have known that actually attempting democracy would result in an American invasion. Israel has no right to issue declarations like that. However, I do agree that Nasser must have been an idiot to not know that Israel would back up their threat.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by Osman [email protected] 3 2004, 02:29 PM
Oh, yeah and America&#39;s wars were all justified too because they should have known that actually attempting democracy would result in an American invasion. Israel has no right to issue declarations like that. However, I do agree that Nasser must have been an idiot to not know that Israel would back up their threat.
Is this addressed to me?

Well i&#39;ll answer anyway, even if not.

Oh, yeah and America&#39;s wars were all justified too because they should have known that actually attempting democracy would result in an American invasion.

Err, if this is a referance to Iraq, I dont think that saddam was ever attempting democracy, unless democracy is where no one votes apart from saddam.

Israel has no right to issue declarations like that.

I dont see why not, cutting off a countries town and port, surrounding it with troops, and blockading it, would usually constitute an act of serious aggression if not war. What do you think would happen if any other state in the world did that, I can guarantee that, that country would be invaded by the other.

Also Arab nations had been shelling Israeli towns, talk about causing wars, I think that if you start shelling a country, and then blockade one of its towns and molalise along its borders, your asking for a war, you would have to be incredibly naive (or just have a death wish) if you thought nothing would happen. Wars have been started for considerably less.

[Osman Ghazi]

It wasn&#39;t a reference to Iraq, it was a reference to Chile, to Haiti, to Cuba, to Panama, to Nicaragua, to El salvador and every other country the United States has invaded for installing a &#39;leftist&#39; government. They all knew what would happen if they did it. It was against American interests the same way as the closing of the Gulf of Aqaba was to Israel. So, if Egypt started the six-day war, then you can also blame Chile, Haiti, Cuba, Panama etc. because they knew that their actions would cause war too.

As to the declaration, I&#39;m sorry, I should have told you the rest of the story. That was just one of the points that Israel said would be a casus belli. I can&#39;t remember many of the others but I think one was any alliance between Egypt and Syria. And IMO, Israel has no right to make declarations like that.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by Osman [email protected] 3 2004, 02:47 PM
It wasn&#39;t a reference to Iraq, it was a reference to Chile, to Haiti, to Cuba, to Panama, to Nicaragua, to El salvador and every other country the United States has invaded for installing a &#39;leftist&#39; government. They all knew what would happen if they did it. It was against American interests the same way as the closing of the Gulf of Aqaba was to Israel. So, if Egypt started the six-day war, then you can also blame Chile, Haiti, Cuba, Panama etc. because they knew that their actions would cause war too.

As to the declaration, I&#39;m sorry, I should have told you the rest of the story. That was just one of the points that Israel said would be a casus belli. I can&#39;t remember many of the others but I think one was any alliance between Egypt and Syria. And IMO, Israel has no right to make declarations like that.
It wasn&#39;t a reference to Iraq, it was a reference to Chile, to Haiti, to Cuba, to Panama, to Nicaragua, to El salvador and every other country the United States has invaded for installing a &#39;leftist&#39; government.

Ahh OK, I get ya&#33; :)


It was against American interests the same way as the closing of the Gulf of Aqaba was to Israel.

Yeah but the differance is, America&#39;s interests were selfish onesfor their own profit. Israels where that a hostile nation had just started blockading and severing their portm from the rest of the country, and basically trying to starve her. Their is a major differance. not to mention America wasn&#39;t being shelled by leftist governments, and had leftist governments massing armies on her borders.

Sorry but I think that your comparison is rather a poor one.

And IMO, Israel has no right to make declarations like that.

yeah that is probably a fair point, but I dont think that your right in saying that Israel had no right to tell another country that, they are not aloud cut off their towns. I think that it would be very unreasonable to expect Israel to simply bend over and accept getting raped like that.

[NYC4Ever]

The "generous offer" was exactly that. A treaty of surrender. The PLO should have surrendered. What kind of nation would make deals with a terrorist organization? Israel did and still Arafat refused knowing that the public decry of it would lead to an attack on Israel and Sharon&#39;s hawkish party would be elected. Any peace with Israel is defeat for the PLO and Hamas. They do not recognize Israel as a state and never will. They say Jerusalem is holy to them but it is really not.
And what is the truth IHATEBUSH, that Palestinians have the right to use terrorist aims to get what they want? That Israel should just stand there and let Palestine attack them. Hmm, then maybe Israelis would be the victims then. Did you know that the PLO and Hamas preach denial of Holocaust, Jewish world rule, Jews as pigs and lower than human all with their textbook of The Protocol of the Elders of Zion. Their charter would make Stormfront very proud. Are there any resolutions against the PLO since they are given recognition by the UN now? None, for its advocate of terrorism? Both nations are to blame for horrible incidents, yet the PLO is excused because it is the victim and even when Israel defends itself its even better for them. I dont deny the crimes of Israel as well, but this has been brought out to massive proportions shadowing the overwhelming obvious attacks by the PLO and Hamas. The guilty party is still the Palestinians.

[Osman Ghazi]

NYC4EVER, you are trying to group HAMAS and the PLO, but they are simply not the same. HAMAS is an Islamic fundamentalist group, the PLO is secular, in leadership at least, though much of their membership is Islamically motivated. And while you seem to trot out the fact that HAMAS are anti-Semites, you clearly leave out the fact that member parties of the Likud coalition are anti-Arab. Plus, you continualy deny the fact that the PLO recognized the state of Israel without using any facts to back up your point.

Also, in the American Revolution, the americans slughtered thousands of loyalists using terrorist means. (The definition of terrorism is any unlawful use of force.) But you probably don&#39;t have any problem with that, do you?

EDIT: Also, Enigma, any &#39;justification&#39; for war is just a lie. But you&#39;re probably right, it is a different situation.

[Intifada]

the palestinians were not being offered a proper fair peace deal. they wouldn&#39;t have been able to create a viable independent palestinian state if they agreed to barak&#39;s offer.


They do not recognize Israel as a state and never will.

for the last time, in 1988, the PLO recognised the state of israel and called for a resolution to the conflict, based on international legality.

in this comprimise, the PLO agreed to an independent palestinian state on 22% of historic palestine for the sake of a long lasting peace.

i really cannot be bothered arguing with you anymore as it seems you dont even read my posts. you just repeat the same shit over and over again.

[NYC4Ever]

I could say the same for you, IHATEBUSH. The whole reason for Hamas sticking its ugly little head out of its dank hole is becaue the PLO was secular and not fulfilling the "Islamic law" that forbids a Jewish state of Isreal. So basically the PLO was too soft. Hamas is its cold hearted fundementalist cousin.
Ozman Ghazi, what does bringing up Howard Zinn history have to do with whats happening now? I mean I know probably there are members in the Lukid party that are anti-Arab, but do ya blame them? The PLO have no say to whatever 22% crap they are asking about. They are an organization that dedicates itself to using terror as a means to get what it wants. Do you have another definition for this group. Justify their charter without going into detail that they are victims. The Israelis should shell out their demands and the Palestinian Authority should accept it and accept defeat. There are no two ways about it. Palestine is even lucky to be recognized by the state of Israel.
I keep repeating myself so you&#39;ll get it through your head that this battle has been heavily politisized over the years and taking one side with a whole heart is useless. Both have thier sides to blame, but how can you support the PLO as if they have no blood on their hands and deserve everything they ask for? Basically I would just be answering to your PLO propaganda.

[lucid]

Don&#39;t let ihateeveryone get to you NYC4Ever. He&#39;s a fanatic and will demonize the US and Israel no matter what. He is the type of guy that will probably end up in jail for fire bombing an SUV dealership.

[NYC4Ever]

lol, I could see that. I mean the way there is so much bias against the US and Israel is almost supernatural.The way people run to the defense of terrorists and dictators is alarming. Revolution and global justice is just instated into the hearts of these guys and they will side with anyone that has a cause. Even if it means buying into their propaganda and justifying terrorist acts.

[Osman Ghazi]

Ozman Ghazi

Why does everyone change it to a z? I&#39;ve never understood that.


Islamic law" that forbids a Jewish state of Isreal

Israel didn&#39;t exist at the time the Sharia was created so why would there be a law against it? In fact, at the time, Muslims were tolerating Judaism while the Spaniards and Franks were giving them the boot.


mean I know probably there are members in the Lukid party that are anti-Arab, but do ya blame them?

You seem to blame HAMAS for being anti-Semites, so yes, I can blame them. They are all fanatics who should be destroyed.


The PLO have no say to whatever 22% crap they are asking about.

Why the Hell not? As a representative organization for the Palestinian people, the Palestinian Authority has every say to the regions inhabited by them.


They are an organization that dedicates itself to using terror as a means to get what it wants.

And using attack helicopters to attack suspected militants whilst killing or wounding innocent bystanders is a policy dedicated to creating a friendly relationship with the Palestinians?