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Intifada
21st April 2004, 18:33
link (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7-1056784,00.html)

Basra: What the f*** are we doing here?
By Matthew Parris
In his second report from Iraq, this writer says British rule in Basra is a sham, conducted from behind sandbags in a deal with Shia leaders



FORGET all that smug stuff in the British media about the way our troops (unlike the arrogant and out-of-touch Yanks) know how to get on with the natives — every soldier a diplomat, etc — and have turned their southern Iraqi zone around Basra into a haven of peaceful reconstruction.
The place is a stinking mess and the townsfolk are unemployed and desperate.



There is far less to show for a year’s occupation than there should be, and if our (undoubted) attempts to make friends with the locals seem to have brought peace, then that will be because their Shia leaders have yet to stir the mob against us. Bigger forces are at work than can be tamed with a handshake, and all that goodwill could disappear in a puff of smoke.

I went to Basra by train. Incredibly, there still is one — just. Strangely, almost no Westerners seem to have tried it. True, there have been explosions, and attacks on trains; but the highway between the two cities is subject both to insurgency and banditry so that few motorists dare to travel by night, and goods vehicles travel in 30-strong convoys between US military Humvees.

The railway from Baghdad to Basra is the first section of what was once no doubt a grand British plan to link Syria to the Gulf. For some 500 dispiriting kilometres it runs not far from the Tigris but you never see the river, only a limitless, flat, ugly river basin: muddy scrub, fields of corn, palm groves sheltering the blackened hulks of Iraqi tanks that failed to hide and, as you get closer to the Tigris’s confluence with the Euphrates, endless mudflats, then marshes, reeds and trenches to either side and the occasional raised pole of a Marsh Arab’s canoe.

You leave the sad magnificence of Baghdad Central Railway Station at 8.30am, nosing through vast marshalling yards, derelict, littered with the occasional rusting hulk of a steam locomotive, and gathering speed across miles of untidy middle-class suburbs. Roads cross the track everywhere. All booms, gates and warning lights are long wrecked and the train simply whistles at trusting goats, Iraqis and motorised traffic to clear the track.

Our smart new green-and-yellow Chinese-made diesel loco pulled only three carriages, and there cannot have been more than thirty passengers on board. I quickly saw why. The carriages were smashed to bits. Doors were off, seats were ripped out, windows cracked and dust came belching up through holes in the floor. The whole 12-hour train ride to Basra cost little more than a dollar (a seat in a shared taxi costs 20 times as much) but even cash-strapped Iraqis have their pride. Only one other compartment in my carriage was occupied: by a gentle and charming Iraqi family, obviously poor, and too numerous — with six children — to fit in a car.

From one or two individuals a sense of luminous goodness is somehow communicated without words (they had only a few in English) and over the hours ahead I was seized with an intense fondness for Adnan and Leila, their four daughters, Hadir (who kept dusting my seat), Gofran, Hadil and Asraa, their son Ali and their tiny baby boy, Hossain, tightly wrapped in swaddling clothes. They lived in Basra but had been visiting Leila’s relations near Baghdad. We had a happy photo session together and I would like to have sent them the results, but there is no postal service in Iraq.

Some 50km out of Baghdad, at a station called Mahmodiga, our train stopped. There was an IED (improvised explosive device) scare at the next station, Iskandariyah. Nobody knew if or when we would be able to continue our journey. I paced the track and stared out over the litter of poor, flat-roofed little houses on either side of the track, all displaying their Shia flags of red, green or black — representing different mullahs — and listened to frogs singing from a big, filthy, reed-strewn puddle.

After an hour, passengers began abandoning our train, bags in hand, seeking road transport. Everyone was eating nuts (Iraqis pull sunflower seeds and roasted melon pips from their pockets as Americans pull Wrigley’s gum) and seeking information; nobody had any to offer; a lack which ran like a leitmotiv through all my time in Iraq. After two hours there was almost nobody but me and the photographer, and the nice family in the next-door compartment, too poor to pay for a taxi.

After three hours the loco whistled and moved off, we passengers jumping on before the carriages got up speed, the broken doors being easy to kick open. We soon passed Iskandariyah but saw no bomb, only a long-exploded bus and, later, a totally (but not recently) demolished oil-train, each tanker blown out by grenades.

This was unwelded track; the train proceeding with an old-fashioned clickety-click which grew to an urgent and hammering volume as our top speed of about 50mph was reached and sand (and sometimes, in the marshes, spray) billowed through the carriages. I hung from the door, a warm desert wind in my face. Two hundreds yards away a US military convoy kept pace on the highway which here ran in parallel. The pale, nervy faces of the American soldiers pointing guns from their Humvees — astonished to see an unarmed Westerner hanging from the train — were a picture.

We passed through stations whose names — al-Nasiriyah, Najaf — stirred vague memories of news reports of killings. As dusk fell the plain grew wetter and the marshes seemed to steal upon us, until the track was confined to a causeway; sometimes you could see lights, sometimes a little mud house on a piece of dry ground, and sometimes the outline of a long boat among the shadowy reeds. The clickety-click grew faster, almost panicky. We were catching up lost time.

Then the reeds cleared and we were back in near desert. It was dark now and the skyline was lit by the huge orange flares of the southern oil wells, ragged flames leaping in the wind and smoke turning the sky from dark blue to black along the horizon. Then the lights of houses began to crowd in on us; roads crossed the track again; traffic honked; and by nine — only half an hour late — we pulled into Basra station. We had caught up almost all the three hours lost.

I bade my new friends, the Iraqi family, a regretful farewell, sad that there would be no way to get in touch again, and hailed a taxi to al- Morbad (regulars call it Morbid) Hotel. It was full of security men: great hulks of thirtysomething Westerners who look like mercenaries, ex-army (many of them), British, American, French, German, tattoos with designs such as barbed wire around bare biceps, guns tucked into belts and earning up to $500 a day to work with oil companies or foreign contractors. I reckon there are thousands of these men following fortune into Iraq. Every now and again one of them gets blown up or shot, but the deaths do not count toward figures for military casualties. To my amazement I found that Washington is employing these civilians, in place of the armed forces, to guard American zones in Iraq. One US agency providing such personnel is called, without irony, Custer Battles.

I showered off the dust, ate a plateful of tasty Basra prawns, and slept soundly under a big, slow-revolving ceiling fan.



FLOWING past Basra from the confluence of the Tigris and Euphrates into the Persian Gulf, the Shatt al-Arab river is almost beautiful — and would be, had the Iranians not blown up all the palm groves across the water during the Iran-Iraq war. The damaged landscape was pointed out to me by Patrick Wright, our man in Basra, from the riverside park of palaces and mansions where the British Army and the civil administration are stationed , moving around in surreal little white electric golf carts.

Wright, a Foreign and Commonwealth Office Arabist with the weary rationality of one who has seen more flyblown Middle Eastern countries than he cares to remember, did tell me his official title, and painstakingly explained how he fitted into the Coalition Provisional Authority machine, but at the presence of the word “co-ordinator” I have learnt to switch off and save precious memory cells. Recourse to this term is a reliable tell-tale sign of an organisation which does not know, or will not say, what it is there for.

We can co-ordinate until the camels come home in Iraq, but in the end somebody is going to have to do something; somebody is going to have to administer; somebody is going to have to clear the rubbish from the Basra streets.

This is a big, filthy city whose troubles plainly go back long before the most recent war. Read what you like in the admiring British press, but the fact is that as the occupying power we have done a deal with local Shia leaders, and retreated behind the sandbags, restricting ourselves to the occasional patrol, a sally or two to wave and shake hands with the natives, and the dispatch of a few no doubt admirable technical teams from Britain to get the water and the power back on.

They are back on. Beyond that, one has the impression of a well-mannered holding operation. We are there, as Wright admitted, “on sufferance”. Everybody complains about street crime (we foiled attempts to steal our satellite phone in the filthy, crowded, well-stocked market and blocked streets); nobody travels by night; everybody detests the Americans (as usual), and most people seem to view the British as somewhat less offensive sidekicks to the real Emperor: George W. Bush.

There is no serious attempt to administer this place. Outside the market, where ancient street-photographers with ancient cameras take snaps for passport applications, which scribes with desks on the rubble-strewn pavement help Iraqi would-be emigrants to fill in, three new-uniformed Iraqi policemen came up to my interpreter and asked if I would report, without naming or photographing them, that in order to get their posts as trainees they had had to pay a lump-sum bribe to a third-party, and now had to pay one third of their monthly salaries to the same person, to keep their jobs.

And this is a city still under British control. Three young Iraqis approached me separately in the street and asked if I could help them to get a job, any job.

In the market I bought a bag of nuts. As I left, the little boy manning the adjacent stall ran after me holding out a $50 note. I had dropped it getting out my dinars. He was about 10. Full of gratitude for his honesty, I offered him a small reward. Gravely he declined my dinars, placing his right hand over his heart, as Iraqis do, to signify sincerity. Fifty dollars must have been more than that boy earns in a month.

Back in the British green zone that afternoon I passed the checkpoint of British squaddies (“The Times, sir? That’s the intellectual one, innit?”) and met up with some journalists and press officers who were in Basra on a visit sponsored by the Department for International Development. Except that they were not in Basra. They were in a heavily guarded park, sprinkled with tawdry mansions and occupied by the British, whither they had been brought from the airport. Allowed a couple of guided excursions to see a generator and a sewage plant, they asked me what the real Basra was like. “We were told we could not go there, for security reasons, one told me.”

They were shortly to be flown back, via Cyprus. With them I joined a Royal Navy patrol speedboat for an hour on the river, where the British officer in charge, the inevitable Tim, pleasant, jokey, public-school, steered us past the upturned hulk of Saddam’s sunken yacht, and an idle dockyard of rusting cranes and impounded cargo ships.

He and his heavily-armed crew waved to Iraqis on the shore. They did this so often that I realised they must be under orders to wave whenever possible.

As we sped under a bridge our gunman trained his weapon on the pedestrians passing above, just in case, then swivelled quickly round to do the same from behind as we emerged from under the bridge. Meanwhile, his colleagues just kept waving, frantically. It sort of summed things up.

Before leaving the zone the photographer and I spent a while downloading our pictures for the crew. This gave me the chance to inspect the interior of a sizeable palace. Arches were sealed off with plywood. Above, the ceiling was of fluted domes. Below were a scattering of troops’ beds, a ping-pong table and a television. Girlie pictures were pinned to the cracked walls. Men were sitting and lying around. I think the question in their minds was the question in mine. What the f *** are we doing here?


A SIX-HOUR taxi-ride back to Baghdad in an immaculate but elderly white Chevrolet Classic Caprice may have used up more of my nine lives than patrolling with the Americans in a Humvee. Death in a road accident remains the greatest of the dangers faced by Iraqis, who do not seem to care, and their foreign visitors, who do. There were at least 20 security roadblocks, but, as our driver pointed out, the town in which motorists were in the greatest danger of ambush seems to have kept the soldiers out.

Clutching the apricot tree I had bought in Basra to plant in Derbyshire (if I could get it though Customs), I staggered thankfully back into The Times’s house in Baghdad, which I was to quit the next morning.

As it turned out, my Times colleagues were to quit the house soon, too. Twice a passing car stopped for a moment for its driver to inform our Iraqi staff that the foreign journalists had better leave the house, or retribution would follow. They now have, and moved into a heavily guarded central hotel.

But I knew nothing of this as I set out early for the most heavily guarded place in Iraq: the airport. “It can take two hours to get through security to the terminal,” my colleagues had cautioned. It took five minutes. My Iraqi driver, acting on instinct as Iraqi drivers do, sailed straight past three lines of waiting traffic at the security checkpoint, and through a channel marked “military personnel only”.

A soldier moved towards us and we reached for our IDs — but he waved us through. This happened at the next two checks, too. Thus, with neither our substantial vehicle nor our identities checked, we drove right up to the terminal doors. Three hours early, I had time to inspect the terminal, which is as it was left on the eve of invasion, frozen in time, with all the international flights still marked on the departures board.

There is only one now: to Amman, with Royal Jordanian Airlines. Along with some Iraqi ministers (more chance of being bombed, then, I thought) and a man who had come to try to sell a telephone system for Baghdad, I climbed into an unmarked white Fokker passenger jet.

We took off, then banked immediately into a steep upward corkscrew, keeping the runway and guarded airport zone directly below us until we had reached about 5,000ft. Then, high enough to reduce the chances of being shot down, we headed out across the desert toward Jordan.

In my head I carried a jumble of memories, some, but not all, unhappy and confused. I thought of all the Iraqis who had asked me: “Where are they keeping Saddam?” — as though, being a Westerner, I must know; just as we think that Iraqis, being Iraqis, know what is going on the street. But nobody knows anything and we are all in the dark.

I thought of that lovely Iraqi family in the railway compartment. Everywhere there are good people with simple hopes: for jobs, health and security. I thought of the little boy in Basra market, handing me back my dropped fifty bucks with such a fierce sense of honour. And I thought of the British troops in that tawdry palace by the Shatt al-Arab river; their girlie mags; their ping-pong table; and their unspoken question: “What the f*** are we doing here?”

lucid
21st April 2004, 18:35
Shouldn't you be in school?

Intifada
21st April 2004, 18:38
did you even read the article?

infact, can you read? :huh:

lucid
21st April 2004, 18:45
Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 06:38 PM
did you even read the article?

infact, can you read? :huh:
Just typical anti-american crap. Written for mindless children like yourself.

Intifada
21st April 2004, 18:50
it is far from "typical anti-american crap" since it is about the british troops in basra.

ignoramus.

Capitalist Imperial
21st April 2004, 18:55
Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 06:50 PM
it is far from "typical anti-american crap" since it is about the british troops in basra.

ignoramus.
As evidenced by the very 1st sentence, right?

lucid
21st April 2004, 18:56
everybody detests the Americans (as usual)

Ohh, my bad. Fuck em, hope he steps on an anti-personel mine.

Intifada
21st April 2004, 18:59
the author is referring to what most british people and media think of the americans.

lucid
21st April 2004, 19:06
Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 06:59 PM
the author is referring to what most british people and media think of the americans.
And I am saying fuck em. And fuck you too. Europe wasn't crying when we helped in WW1 and II and they where not crying when the US was taking on Russia. Europeans are turning into appologists pussies.

Capitalist Imperial
21st April 2004, 19:07
Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 06:59 PM
the author is referring to what most british people and media think of the americans.
To be quite frank, we don't care. We fought 2 wars to be free from you inbred invalids.

We lead, we don't follow.

Brits that don't like yanks can eat a big one.

For brits that do like Yanks, I look forward to some Fish & Chips and a cold pint with you.

Intifada
21st April 2004, 19:09
We fought 2 wars to be free from you inbred invalids.

:blink:

i don't care.


Brits that don't like yanks can eat a big one.


ok

Revolt!
21st April 2004, 19:09
Matthew Parris is actually a right winger who used to be in the Conservative party.


We fought 2 wars to be free from you inbred invalids.

You mean we fought ourselves. If it wasn't for Europe you'd be Indians. You also speak our language, funny that.

lucid
21st April 2004, 19:10
Originally posted by Capitalist Imperial+Apr 21 2004, 07:07 PM--> (Capitalist Imperial @ Apr 21 2004, 07:07 PM)
[email protected] 21 2004, 06:59 PM
the author is referring to what most british people and media think of the americans.
To be quite frank, we don't care. We fought 2 wars to be free from you inbred invalids.

We lead, we don't follow.

Brits that don't like yanks can eat a big one.

For brits that do like Yanks, I look forward to some Fish & Chips and a cold pint with you. [/b]
Here here!

Intifada
21st April 2004, 19:11
Matthew Parris is actually a right winger who used to be in the Conservative party.

LOL :lol:

lucid
21st April 2004, 19:13
Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 07:11 PM

Matthew Parris is actually a right winger who used to be in the Conservative party.

LOL :lol:
And this someone how adds weight to his whining? There are plenty of liberals that grew some balls and swung right.

Invader Zim
21st April 2004, 19:16
Originally posted by Capitalist Imperial+Apr 21 2004, 07:07 PM--> (Capitalist Imperial @ Apr 21 2004, 07:07 PM)
[email protected] 21 2004, 06:59 PM
the author is referring to what most british people and media think of the americans.
To be quite frank, we don't care. We fought 2 wars to be free from you inbred invalids.

We lead, we don't follow.

Brits that don't like yanks can eat a big one.

For brits that do like Yanks, I look forward to some Fish & Chips and a cold pint with you. [/b]
fish 'n' chips! not fish & chips.

We fought 2 wars to be free from you inbred invalids.

Indeed... well to be accurate some of you did, a lot of you actually faught on the other side.

We lead, we don't follow.

Lead in what? Stupid wars based on lies... yeah, and we are dumb enough to follow.

Europe wasn't crying when we helped in WW1 and II and they where not crying when the US was taking on Russia.

Your help in WW1 was pittiful, in world war 2 unnecessary, Russia had the germans beaten before we (the good ol' west) got our thumbs out our arses and actually did anything.

And I am saying fuck em.

Fine, bend over.

Invader Zim
21st April 2004, 19:17
Originally posted by lucid+Apr 21 2004, 07:13 PM--> (lucid @ Apr 21 2004, 07:13 PM)
[email protected] 21 2004, 07:11 PM

Matthew Parris is actually a right winger who used to be in the Conservative party.

LOL :lol:
And this someone how adds weight to his whining? There are plenty of liberals that grew some balls and swung right. [/b]
Unlike you who's balls clearly havent dropped.

Revolt!
21st April 2004, 19:17
"And this someone how adds weight to his whining? There are plenty of liberals that grew some balls and swung right. "

It means, as a right winger yourself, you shouldn't dismiss it so quickly.

I like to think of myself as a very tolerant person, that tolerance is being put to the test constantly when I have to read the amount of arrogant and intolerant posts on here.

Capitalist Imperial
21st April 2004, 19:17
In his second report from Iraq

"Report" suggests journalism.

This is not objective journalism. this is an Op-Ed piece that I would expect to come from the dregs over at Pacifica radio in the Peoples Republic of Berkely

it is pure trite pap, a subjective, agenda driven analysis by a leftist puke, par for the course in much contemporary journalism.

Eastside Revolt
21st April 2004, 19:19
I love how impossible it is for you yanks to believe that you are hated in Iraq. Just because the author is telling you like it is, he therefore hates Americans.

Look if you were an Iraqi, you wouldn't be too fond of Yanks either. You're living under a dictator that you hate, but just as long as you keep your mouth shut, and have his picture on the wall, you'll be just fine. Whereas now, your starving and it doesn't matter what you say or what you do, you will continue to starve.

lucid
21st April 2004, 19:20
Originally posted by Enigma+Apr 21 2004, 07:17 PM--> (Enigma @ Apr 21 2004, 07:17 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 07:13 PM

[email protected] 21 2004, 07:11 PM

Matthew Parris is actually a right winger who used to be in the Conservative party.

LOL :lol:
And this someone how adds weight to his whining? There are plenty of liberals that grew some balls and swung right.
Unlike you who's balls clearly havent dropped. [/b]
Right...

At least I can take care of myself and family with *****ing about the "system" keeping me down.

Capitalist Imperial
21st April 2004, 19:21
Originally posted by Revolt!@Apr 21 2004, 07:09 PM
You mean we fought ourselves. If it wasn't for Europe you'd be Indians. You also speak our language, funny that.
No, Americans fought Brits. The declaration of independence happened before the war started, and thus we proclaimed ourselves a seperate entity from that point on.

Invader Zim
21st April 2004, 19:25
Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 21 2004, 07:17 PM

In his second report from Iraq

"Report" suggests journalism.

This is not objective journalism. this is an Op-Ed piece that I would expect to come from the dregs over at Pacifica radio in the Peoples Republic of Berkely

it is pure trite pap, a subjective, agenda driven analysis by a leftist puke, par for the course in much contemporary journalism.
Reading isn’t your strong point... but then again, considering sheer scale of your ignorance perhaps it is. :rolleyes:

"Matthew Parris is actually a right winger who used to be in the Conservative party."

Got it through your thick skull? He is not a leftist, but a conservative. You think you can manage that, or would like it broken down to words of a single syllable?

lucid
21st April 2004, 19:25
Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 07:19 PM
I love how impossible it is for you yanks to believe that you are hated in Iraq. Just because the author is telling you like it is, he therefore hates Americans.

Look if you were an Iraqi, you wouldn't be too fond of Yanks either. You're living under a dictator that you hate, but just as long as you keep your mouth shut, and have his picture on the wall, you'll be just fine. Whereas now, your starving and it doesn't matter what you say or what you do, you will continue to starve.
So we should of left them in the hands of a dictator? With his torture rooms, rape rooms, and kids that would take your wife and kill you if you said anything. It's funny that the side that supports peace doesn't care how people suffer as long as they are being fed.

Capitalist Imperial
21st April 2004, 19:26
Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 07:16 PM




Your help in WW1 was pittiful,

come on, Enigma


in world war 2 unnecessary, Russia had the germans beaten before we (the good ol' west) got our thumbs out our arses and actually did anything.

how many times do we need to go over this?


they where not crying when the US was taking on Russia


Lucid was referring to the cold war years

Intifada
21st April 2004, 19:28
So we should of left them in the hands of a dictator? With his torture rooms, rape rooms, and kids that would take your wife and kill you if you said anything. It's funny that the side that supports peace doesn't care how people suffer as long as they are being fed.

shut the fuck up. american and british governments have been commiting genocide in iraq for the past 12 or so years.

Intifada
21st April 2004, 19:30
torture rooms, rape rooms, and kids that would take your wife and kill you if you said anything.

ironically, americans have been torturing iraqi pisoners and sexually assaulting their own colleagues. they also kidnap the wives of wanted men and hold them until they give themselves in.

lucid
21st April 2004, 19:31
Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 07:28 PM

So we should of left them in the hands of a dictator? With his torture rooms, rape rooms, and kids that would take your wife and kill you if you said anything. It's funny that the side that supports peace doesn't care how people suffer as long as they are being fed.

shut the fuck up. american and british governments have been commiting genocide in iraq for the past 12 or so years.
Oh please, your such an angry idiot. We attacked military targets when Saddam did stupid shit, and some civilians did get killed, but it wasn't genocide you freak. No wonder your so fucked in the head, you blow up the UN sanctioned occupation of no fly zones into "Genocide".

Intifada
21st April 2004, 19:32
Oh please, your such an angry idiot. We attacked military targets when Saddam did stupid shit, and some civilians did get killed, but it wasn't genocide you freak. No wonder your so fucked in the head, you blow up the UN sanctioned occupation of no fly zones into "Genocide".

if you call what happened in rwanda genocide you would call what happened in iraq because of the west genocide too.

lucid
21st April 2004, 19:33
Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 07:30 PM

torture rooms, rape rooms, and kids that would take your wife and kill you if you said anything.

ironically, americans have been torturing iraqi pisoners and sexually assaulting their own colleagues. they also kidnap the wives of wanted men and hold them until they give themselves in.
Yah ok. We also have meetings with the Devil on a regular basis so that we can further our attempt at world domination.

Invader Zim
21st April 2004, 19:34
Originally posted by Capitalist Imperial+Apr 21 2004, 07:26 PM--> (Capitalist Imperial @ Apr 21 2004, 07:26 PM)
[email protected] 21 2004, 07:16 PM




Your help in WW1 was pittiful,

come on, Enigma


in world war 2 unnecessary, Russia had the germans beaten before we (the good ol' west) got our thumbs out our arses and actually did anything.

how many times do we need to go over this?


they where not crying when the US was taking on Russia


Lucid was referring to the cold war years [/b]
come on, Enigma

I certainly would not shock me if you were just about as ignorant about WW1 history as you are about WW2 history. Listen, just take my word for it, the US was absolutly lame in WW1. It was limited, and when it did actually arrive (late), the US troops got mown down, because they like the British and French 2 years earlier had not learned the tactics.

The support the US gave in WW1 was far more in financial aid, than in military.

how many times do we need to go over this?

Yes, I am rather tired of explaining the flaws of in hollywood history.

Capitalist Imperial
21st April 2004, 19:35
I love how impossible it is for you yanks to believe that you are hated in Iraq. Just because the author is telling you like it is, he therefore hates Americans.

But this is not exactly "how it is" across the board. It is one sided.


You're living under a dictator that you hate, but just as long as you keep your mouth shut, and have his picture on the wall, you'll be just fine.\

Perfect, just Perfect, the entire communist mindset epitomized right here in this quote!!! I feel so sorry that this is really what you red pukes aspire to and believe in.

Thats it, just keep your mouth shut and tow the party line, comrade.

lucid
21st April 2004, 19:36
Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 07:32 PM

Oh please, your such an angry idiot. We attacked military targets when Saddam did stupid shit, and some civilians did get killed, but it wasn't genocide you freak. No wonder your so fucked in the head, you blow up the UN sanctioned occupation of no fly zones into "Genocide".

if you call what happened in rwanda genocide you would call what happened in iraq because of the west genocide too.
You caught us. We killed a million Iraqis in a hundred days. We also roamed around killing any Islamic people we found. Red handed :o

Intifada
21st April 2004, 19:37
Torture and ill-treatment

Abdallah Khudhran al-Shamran, a Saudi Arabian national, was arrested in al-Rutba in early April 2003 by US and allied Iraqi forces while travelling from Syria to Baghdad. On reaching an unknown site, he said he was beaten, given electric shocks, suspended by his legs, had his penis tied and was subjected to sleep deprivation. He was held there for four days before being transferred to a camp hospital in Um Qasr. He was then interrogated and released without money or passport. He approached a British soldier, whereupon he was taken to another place of detention, then transferred to a military field hospital and again interrogated and tortured. This time torture methods reportedly included prolonged exposure in the sun, being locked in a container, and being threatened with execution.

Such reports of torture or other ill-treatment by Coalition Forces have been frequent in the past year. In the first weeks of the war and occupation, detainees suffered extreme heat while housed in tents and were supplied with insufficient water, inadequate washing facilities, open trenches for toilets, no change of clothes, and no books, newspapers, radios or writing materials. Since then, detainees have reported being routinely subjected to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment during arrest and the first 24 hours of detention. Plastic handcuffs used by US troops have caused detainees unnecessary pain. Former detainees have said they were forced to lie face down on the ground, were held handcuffed, hooded or blindfolded, and were not given water or food or allowed to go to the toilet.

Many detainees have alleged they were tortured and ill-treated by US and UK troops during interrogation. Methods often reported include prolonged sleep deprivation; beatings; prolonged restraint in painful positions, sometimes combined with exposure to loud music; prolonged hooding; and exposure to bright lights. Virtually none of the allegations of torture or ill-treatment has been adequately investigated.

In Basra, at least four people have died in British custody. In one case, the cause of death was torture. Several people interviewed by AI described being tortured by British soldiers during interrogation.

· Eight Iraqis arrested on 14 September by British soldiers from the British military base Camp Steven in Basra were reportedly tortured. The men all worked for a hotel in Basra where weapons were reported to have been found. Baha' al-Maliki, the hotel's receptionist, died in custody three days later; his body was reportedly severely bruised and covered in blood. Kefah Taha was admitted to hospital in critical condition, suffering renal failure and severe bruising.

· In February 2004, during a hearing into the death in June 2003 of Najem Sa'doun Hattab at Camp Whitehorse detention centre near Nassiriya, a former US marine testified that it was common practice to kick and punch prisoners who did not cooperate - and even some who did. The marine had been granted immunity from prosecution for his testimony. Najem Sa'doun Hattab, a former Ba'ath Party official, died after he was beaten and choked by a US marine reservist.(10)



from amnesty international.

US probes rape of soldiers by colleagues in Iraq (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1-1016747,00.html)

Revolt!
21st April 2004, 19:38
No, Americans fought Brits. The declaration of independence happened before the war started, and thus we proclaimed ourselves a seperate entity from that point on.


Yes, but you still descended from Europeans. I was being half -serious, angered by your arrogance.

Capitalist Imperial
21st April 2004, 19:38
Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 07:34 PM

I certainly would not shock me if you were just about as ignorant about WW1 history as you are about WW2 history. Listen, just take my word for it, the US was absolutly lame in WW1. It was limited, and when it did actually arrive (late), the US troops got mown down, because they like the British and French 2 years earlier had not learned the tactics.


I'm not going to respond to this, because your previous posts minimizing American sacrifice in WWII is illustrative of your total ignorance, and no personal attacks against me will make up for your total lack of perspective and lack big-picture understanding of America's role in WWII.

lucid
21st April 2004, 19:41
Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 07:37 PM

Torture and ill-treatment

Abdallah Khudhran al-Shamran, a Saudi Arabian national, was arrested in al-Rutba in early April 2003 by US and allied Iraqi forces while travelling from Syria to Baghdad. On reaching an unknown site, he said he was beaten, given electric shocks, suspended by his legs, had his penis tied and was subjected to sleep deprivation. He was held there for four days before being transferred to a camp hospital in Um Qasr. He was then interrogated and released without money or passport. He approached a British soldier, whereupon he was taken to another place of detention, then transferred to a military field hospital and again interrogated and tortured. This time torture methods reportedly included prolonged exposure in the sun, being locked in a container, and being threatened with execution.

Such reports of torture or other ill-treatment by Coalition Forces have been frequent in the past year. In the first weeks of the war and occupation, detainees suffered extreme heat while housed in tents and were supplied with insufficient water, inadequate washing facilities, open trenches for toilets, no change of clothes, and no books, newspapers, radios or writing materials. Since then, detainees have reported being routinely subjected to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment during arrest and the first 24 hours of detention. Plastic handcuffs used by US troops have caused detainees unnecessary pain. Former detainees have said they were forced to lie face down on the ground, were held handcuffed, hooded or blindfolded, and were not given water or food or allowed to go to the toilet.

Many detainees have alleged they were tortured and ill-treated by US and UK troops during interrogation. Methods often reported include prolonged sleep deprivation; beatings; prolonged restraint in painful positions, sometimes combined with exposure to loud music; prolonged hooding; and exposure to bright lights. Virtually none of the allegations of torture or ill-treatment has been adequately investigated.

In Basra, at least four people have died in British custody. In one case, the cause of death was torture. Several people interviewed by AI described being tortured by British soldiers during interrogation.

· Eight Iraqis arrested on 14 September by British soldiers from the British military base Camp Steven in Basra were reportedly tortured. The men all worked for a hotel in Basra where weapons were reported to have been found. Baha' al-Maliki, the hotel's receptionist, died in custody three days later; his body was reportedly severely bruised and covered in blood. Kefah Taha was admitted to hospital in critical condition, suffering renal failure and severe bruising.

· In February 2004, during a hearing into the death in June 2003 of Najem Sa'doun Hattab at Camp Whitehorse detention centre near Nassiriya, a former US marine testified that it was common practice to kick and punch prisoners who did not cooperate - and even some who did. The marine had been granted immunity from prosecution for his testimony. Najem Sa'doun Hattab, a former Ba'ath Party official, died after he was beaten and choked by a US marine reservist.(10)



from amnesty international.

US probes rape of soldiers by colleagues in Iraq (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1-1016747,00.html)
Yep, a few examples makes us equivilent to a brutal dictator that ruled with an iron fist and made it known that you would die if you spoke up against him. That sure sounds like the US alright. I would call the White House and ask Bush for an explination but he is probably raping someones 12 year old girl. And his daughters and out torturing people that spoke out against Bush. Maybe I'll try again later.

ihatebush, your dumber than two boys fuckin.

Invader Zim
21st April 2004, 19:46
Lucid you a homophobe, or something?

Perhaps its because your afraid of what you are, denial. Do you like to another guys ass? Does it turn you on? You know its Ok release the emotions, its not healthy.

You know you want too.

I'm not going to respond to this

Ha you know that you know that our knowledge of 20th century history is highly limited, and when you are picked up on the rubbish you spout, you get all defensive.

Sorry, you are not fooling anyone. Your just a dumb ass.

lucid
21st April 2004, 19:48
Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 07:46 PM
Lucid you a homophobe, or something?

Perhaps its because your afraid of what you are, denial. Do you like to another guys ass? Does it turn you on? You know its Ok release the emotions, its not healthy.

Gou know you want too.
While not really a homophobe I have to say that the whole guy on guy thing is not natural. Thanks for your concern though!

Invader Zim
21st April 2004, 19:52
Originally posted by lucid+Apr 21 2004, 07:48 PM--> (lucid @ Apr 21 2004, 07:48 PM)
[email protected] 21 2004, 07:46 PM
Lucid you a homophobe, or something?

Perhaps its because your afraid of what you are, denial. Do you like to another guys ass? Does it turn you on? You know its Ok release the emotions, its not healthy.

Gou know you want too.
While not really a homophobe I have to say that the whole guy on guy thing is not natural. Thanks for your concern though! [/b]
If you are not a homophobe then why do you call the act of homosexual lovemaking dumb?

It is a rather telling statement i'm afraid.

lucid
21st April 2004, 20:00
Its not lovemaking. Its called sticking your dick in another mans ass. If people wanna do it thats fine but I don't have to like or support it.

Capitalist Imperial
21st April 2004, 20:01
Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 07:46 PM

Ha you know that you know that our knowledge of 20th century history is highly limited, and when you are picked up on the rubbish you spout, you get all defensive.

Sorry, you are not fooling anyone. Your just a dumb ass.
No, not really, my knowledge, analysis, and opinions on WWII are well documented in a myriad of posts and threads in this forum, going back well over a year, even before you graced us with our presence here, slick.

Go look them up, I have nothing to prove to you. I've simply been there, done that, and I'm just tired of going in circles with you.

Ok, tiger?

Wenty
21st April 2004, 20:05
There is much that is and has been wrong with American Foreign Policy. Them entering WW2 and giving us much needed help in beating the Nazis is not one of them. To say otherwise is dishonouring the memory of American soldiers that died fighting.

Commie Girl
21st April 2004, 22:41
Lucid.....you are a typical ignorant American.....this was an excellent piece of reporting the FACTS from the ground, unlike what you get fro propaganda in the U$

Capitalist Imperial....what makes you think you are an expert on WWII??? :lol: The U$ entered the second world war ONLY after they themselves were attacked....a little late, considering the war started in 1939. Have you read Margaret McMillans book on World War I called Paris 1919? Wilson(U$), Lloyd-George(UK) and Clemenceau (FR) set up the world order in such a way that what is going on now in Iraq and the former Yugoslavia was inevitable. Those policies of Imperialism are WHY THE WORLD IS IN THIS MESS right now, and the current U$ policy of Hegemony is going to destroy the world....Congratulations :ph34r:


P.S. IHATEBUSH....excellent article ;)

Capitalist Imperial
21st April 2004, 23:35
Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 10:41 PM
Lucid.....you are a typical ignorant American.....this was an excellent piece of reporting the FACTS from the ground, unlike what you get fro propaganda in the U$


"FORGET all that smug stuff in the British media about the way our troops (unlike the arrogant and out-of-touch Yanks) know how to get on with the natives — every soldier a diplomat, etc — and have turned their southern Iraqi zone around Basra into a haven of peaceful reconstruction.
The place is a stinking mess and the townsfolk are unemployed and desperate. "

Yeah, real good "facts".

Perhaps you should invest in a dictionary before you even post here. Your 1st assignment: look up the word"fact".

Capitalist Imperial
21st April 2004, 23:47
As a matter of fact, that whole article is very little fact and mostly a very subjective emotional appeal.

Commie Girl
21st April 2004, 23:50
They are "facts" according to the "eyewitness"!

Capitalist Imperial
21st April 2004, 23:53
Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 11:50 PM
They are "facts" according to the "eyewitness"!
they are not facts, they are subjective observations and opinion.

Osman Ghazi
22nd April 2004, 01:29
The place is a stinking mess and the townsfolk are unemployed and desperate.

That is a fact. Or would you know better having never been, unlike the person who wrote the article who is there right now.

Also, you an expert on WWII. Ha!
I liked your theory on how the Russians fought a defensive war from the Volga all the way to Berlin. Ha!

Louis Pio
22nd April 2004, 01:36
I liked your theory on how the Russians fought a defensive war from the Volga all the way to Berlin. Ha!



Shit even bourgious historians would laugh themselves to death if someone claimed that :D
This is quite funny...
Maybe if lucid makes some of his famous remarks it can get even funnier?

Intifada
22nd April 2004, 05:51
Yep, a few examples makes us equivilent to a brutal dictator that ruled with an iron fist and made it known that you would die if you spoke up against him. That sure sounds like the US alright. I would call the White House and ask Bush for an explination but he is probably raping someones 12 year old girl. And his daughters and out torturing people that spoke out against Bush. Maybe I'll try again later.


america and britain has literally killed hundreds of thousands of iraqi men, women and children.

"Between 1 August 1992 and 16 December 1998, UK aircraft released 2.5 tons of ordnance over the southern no-fly zone at an average of 0.025 tons per month. We do not have sufficiently detailed records of coalition activity in this period to estimate what percentage of the coalition total this represents. Between 20 December 1998 and 17 May 2000, UK aircraft released 78 tons of ordnance over the southern no-fly zone, at an average of 5 tons per month. This figure represents approximately 20 per cent of the coalition total for this period."

--geoff hoon, may 22 2000, when asked about the details of american and british bombing of iraq.

tony blIAr actually dropped bombs on iraq at a rate 20 times more than his conservative predecessor: john major.

on 16 december 1998 clinton launched an around-the-clock aerial assault on iraq, perfectly called "desert fox".

"American warplanes have methodically and with virtually no public discussion been attacking Iraq. In the last eight months, American and British pilots have fired more than 1,100 missiles against 359 targets in Iraq. This is triple the number of targets attacked in four furious days of strikes in December . . . By another measure, pilots have flown about two-thirds as many missions as NATO pilots flew over Yugoslavia in seventy-eight days of around-the-clock war there. "

--august 1999 the new york times.

because of economic sanctions and blockade by sea and land, nutrition levels, education and public services were brought down from once well above regional standards, to third world standards.

before 1990, iraq had a per capita GNP of over $3000, now it is under $300. iraq has been destroyed by the west.

in 1997 the FAO reported that that 27% of iraqis suffered from chronic malnutrition. infant mortality doubled since the first gulf war.

of course the number who have died as a result of america and britain, during the sanctions, cannot be accurately known. richard garfield says that a calculated estimate of excess deaths would be 300000, among children under five years old, since 1991. UNICEF reported in 1997 that 4500 children under the age of five are dying each month from hunger and disease andreckons the number of small children killed by the blockade is 500000.

in 1998, richard halliday, UN humanitarian coordinator, resigned from his post in protest against the blockade by the U$ and UK, saying that the totla deaths caused by it could be more than one million.

america and britain have never cared about saddam's attrocities because the only people who were suffering were filthy arabs. what they have done to iraq is far worse than 9/11 2001. that was nothing. this is genocide.


they are not facts, they are subjective observations and opinion.

from an independent, unbiased source.

lucid
22nd April 2004, 14:00
The bombs dropped in the no fly zone during the period between desert storm and operation freedom were aimed at military installations that were playing games with allied airplanes patrolling the area.

Capitalist Imperial
22nd April 2004, 15:55
Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 05:51 AM

from an independent, unbiased source.
HA! That is laughable!!!

The whole article oozes opinion and bias!!! The 1st sentennce suggests that the "yanks" are "out of touch".

Yep, unbiasesd for sure

stupid pinko puke.

Intifada
22nd April 2004, 16:25
The bombs dropped in the no fly zone during the period between desert storm and operation freedom were aimed at military installations that were playing games with allied airplanes patrolling the area.

yes of course. don't take heed of any estimates of deaths. :rolleyes:


HA! That is laughable!!!

The whole article oozes opinion and bias!!! The 1st sentennce suggests that the "yanks" are "out of touch".

Yep, unbiasesd for sure

stupid pinko puke.

i was talking about the amnesty international report you fool.

right wingers are so funny.

Invader Zim
22nd April 2004, 17:28
Originally posted by Capitalist Imperial+Apr 21 2004, 08:01 PM--> (Capitalist Imperial @ Apr 21 2004, 08:01 PM)
[email protected] 21 2004, 07:46 PM

Ha you know that you know that our knowledge of 20th century history is highly limited, and when you are picked up on the rubbish you spout, you get all defensive.

Sorry, you are not fooling anyone. Your just a dumb ass.
No, not really, my knowledge, analysis, and opinions on WWII are well documented in a myriad of posts and threads in this forum, going back well over a year, even before you graced us with our presence here, slick.

Go look them up, I have nothing to prove to you. I've simply been there, done that, and I'm just tired of going in circles with you.

Ok, tiger? [/b]
Well considering that you have stated that the US played the most important roll in the war, dispite the fact that the Russians captured more actual land from the Germans, the Russians faught 5 times more Germans, the Russians faught in worse considitions, the Russians lost millions more men, the Russians killed millions more Germans, the Russians defeated the german army and had them in full retreat before the D-Day invasion of France was launched. I would say that these fact suggests your knowledge of the war is severly flawed. The fact that you deny this, and then list a major allied defeat, as a major US contribution to the successful prosecution of the war, proves that your knowledge of the war is severly flawed.

Face it, your have been absolutly flattened, you have no case at all.

Saint-Just
22nd April 2004, 17:46
Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 21 2004, 07:38 PM
I'm not going to respond to this, because your previous posts minimizing American sacrifice in WWII is illustrative of your total ignorance, and no personal attacks against me will make up for your total lack of perspective and lack big-picture understanding of America's role in WWII.
There were about 300,000 American military casualties. There were about 330,000 British military casualties. In fact, France had more military casualties although many of its forces did not fight. But, the Soviets defeated most of the German army and had about 9 million military casualties.

Invader Zim
22nd April 2004, 18:37
Originally posted by Chairman Mao+Apr 22 2004, 05:46 PM--> (Chairman Mao @ Apr 22 2004, 05:46 PM)
Capitalist [email protected] 21 2004, 07:38 PM
I'm not going to respond to this, because your previous posts minimizing American sacrifice in WWII is illustrative of your total ignorance, and no personal attacks against me will make up for your total lack of perspective and lack big-picture understanding of America's role in WWII.
There were about 300,000 American military casualties. There were about 330,000 British military casualties. In fact, France had more military casualties although many of its forces did not fight. But, the Soviets defeated most of the German army and had about 9 million military casualties. [/b]
Everyone keeps on pointing these obvious facts out to him, but he just ignores it, because he know he's wrong, and just cant accept he doesnt know the first thing about the war.

I hate it when stupid people stubborly cling to ignorance, it is very upsetting to see people being so dumb.