Irish Commies - Sinn Fein

[revolutionary]

This is to u Irish commies or any one who knows something about the current political situation in N. Ireland.

I don't get Sinn Fein, I mean Jerry Adams won't take his seat in parliament coz of the oath to that fucking queen. (down the monarchy!!!) so he and the other Sinn Fein members have no impression on decisions. I can understand not wanting to take the oath and not wanting to be a member but what power does that leave him? How can/does he make changes for his ppl if he's not a member?

This may be a stupid question, even though I am from England I'm not told much on the subject.

[Supermodel]

You got your answer, revolutionary!!

Not much logic or truth to Sinn Fein........

Hey leave me outta this....

[pastradamus]

Lately on the News it said that Sinn fein have been offered offices in england along with seats in the house of ,I dont know if it's lords or commons.But it is one of them.

[Anonymous]

Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness said that they will not take the oath because it is against their republican beliefs. Even if they took the oath and went into the commons and wanted to change things the British wouldn't listen.

[CommieBastard]

The oath is a disgraceful anachronism, and in that they are right to make a stand. It is a shame that the labour party never did.
However, the British government would listen to concerns of devolvement, this is why scotland and wales have made moves in this direction. However, independance could never be achieved while a majority of people are against it, and this is why sinn fein wont take their seats. Inside the current governmental processes they would outright fail and become little more than plyd cymri (the welsh nationalist party). However, by staying outside of it, with an excuse to do so, they can carry on bemoaning the lack of inclusiveness of the british system (which is accurately identified) and so therefore stir up troubles in Northern Ireland that help their cause in it's illegitimate and terroristic activities.

[Anonymous]

Sinn Fein aren't terrorist or have any terrorist activities, at least any more.

[peaccenicked]

THE MEN BEHIND THE WIRE

(Chorus)
Armoured cars and tanks and guns
Came to take away our sons
But every man must stand behind
The men behind the wire
Armoured cars and tanks and guns
Came to take away our sons
But every man must stand behind
The men behind the wire


Through the little streets of Belfast
In the dark of early morn
British soldiers came marauding
Breaking little homes with scorn
Heedless of the of crying children
Dragging fathers from their beds
Beating sons while helpless mothers
Watch the blood flow from their heads


(Chorus repeat)


Not for them a judge or jury
Or indeed a trial at all
Being Irish means their guilty
So we're guilty one and all
'Round the world the truth will echo
Cromwell's men are here again
England's name again is sullied
In the eyes of honest men

(Chorus repeat)


Proudly march behind our banner
Proudly march behind our men
We will have them free to help us
Build a Nation Once Again
On the people, step together
Proudly marching on our way
Never fear or never falter
Till the boys come home to stay


(Chorus>

back

[Anonymous]

http://www.sinnfein.ie/


Also,
peaccenicked, you are the man!

[CommieBastard]

I did not say that sin feinn are terrorists, i said that their cause uses terrorist activities, and their cause does. And they really dont mind, because they themselves are absolved of any responsibility from it, and yet can still go on supporting it.

[CommieBastard]

And as for peaccenicked's song, i think it is symptomatic of the disgusting jingoism being generally displayed in ireland.
oh, and please remember, that by my lack of support for ireland, i am not supporting britain or england, because i too am irish (to an extent), as people have claimed in the past.

Look to the USA, what do you see? banner waving, demands to stand beind the nation, over inflation of violence and problems by the media to encourage patriotism (in a distorted sense of the word)
and what does that song display? all of those same qualities.
Irelands problems will not be solved until the irish stop fighting the 'British Occupational Forces' and start fighting the true enemy, the enemy within, the capitalists and the capitalist system.


Also, one must question why a nation which is moving ever towards integration with the EU demands independance from the UK.

[peaccenicked]

O me name is Joe McDonnell
From Belfast town I came
That city I will never see again
For in the town of Belfast
I spent many happy days
I love that town in oh so many ways
For it's there I spent my childhood
And found for me a wife
I then set out to make for her a life
But all my young ambitions
Met with bitterness and hate
I soon found myself inside a prison gate

Chorus

And you dare to call me a terrorist
While you look down the barrel of your gun
When I think of all the deeds that you had done
You had plundered many nations
Divided many lands
You had terrorised their peoples
You ruled with an iron hand.
And you brought this reign of terror to my land

Through those many months internment
In the Maidstone and the Maze
I thought about my land throughout those days
Why my country was divided, why I was now in jail
Imprisoned without crime or without trial
And though I love my country
I am not a bitter man
I've seen cruelty and injustice at first hand
So then one fateful morning
I shook bold freedom's hand
For right or wrong I'd try to free my land

Chorus

And you dare to call me a terrorist
While you look down the barrel of your gun
When I think of all the deeds that you had done
You had plundered many nations
Divided many lands
You had terrorised their peoples
You ruled with an iron hand.
And you brought this reign of terror to my land

Then one cold October morning
Trapped in a lion's den
I found myself in prison once again
I was committed to the H-blocks
For fourteen years or more
On the Blanket the conditions they were poor
Then a hunger strike we did commence
For the dignity of man
But it seemed to me that no one gave a damn
But now, I'm a saddened man
I've watched my comrades die
If only people cared or wondered why

Chorus

And you dare to call me a terrorist
While you look down your gun
When I think of all the deeds that you had done
You had plundered many nations
Divided many lands
You had terrorised their peoples
You ruled with an iron hand.
And you brought this reign of terror to my land

May God shine on you Bobby Sands
For the courage you have shown
May your glory and your fame be widely known
And Francis Hughes and Ray McCreesh
Who died unselfishly
And Patsy O Hara, and the next in line is me
And those who lie behind me
May you're courage be the same
And I pray to God my life is not in vain
Ah but sad and bitter was the year of 1981
For everything i've lost and nothing's won.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Supermodel]

CommieB, I couldn't have said it better.

You are exactly right, I read that Sinn Fein propaganda website posted above and it emphasizes our point.

What is Sinn Fein's point? They want the Brits out of Ireland. Word up people, the Brits have given up on Ireland. The Brits Jerry A refers to are the unionist/protestant/hugenots tribe that occupies the North.

Very telling that Sinn Fein has no real agenda for what they would do if they were the ruling party in Ireland.......hmmmmmmmmm......curious......

And of course, no agenda (that they care to reveal) for what plans they have for the unionist majority in the north. There is a term for it, it's called ETHNIC CLEANSING. Why do people fear Sinn Fein? Because they are out to drive every man, woman and child that does not bow down to their vision out of Ireland.

So, Jerry A., why are so such a coward that you won't reveal your true agenda?

(Edited by Supermodel at 5:15 pm on Feb. 5, 2002)

[peaccenicked]

Ethnic cleansing is a pro imperialist lie and has nothing to do with the policy of sinn fien or its traditions.
Many of the icons of the republican movement are protestants. Emmet, Wolfe and Tone. You display a shocking amount of ignorance for the things you condemn.
This is real the sinn fein policy that you can't find.ha!
Our aim in these negotiations is to begin a new era in the history of Ireland. The Irish political parties here are obliged to represent all our people. The people expect progress. We can make that progress and build a new Ireland on a constitutional basis. Sinn Féin is a republican party. We stand for the independence of our country.)

The challenge before us in these negotiations is to build new and lasting relationships between the peoples of these islands. Those relationships must be based on trust and they must be based on justice. On 26 October 1791 the Society of United Irishmen in their Address to the English Society of Friends of the People put it this way:

``As to the union between the two islands, believe us when we assert our union rests upon mutual independence. We shall love each other if we be left to ourselves. It is the union of mind which ought to bind these nations together.''

This was the sentiment that linked these two pioneering democratic organisations, one Irish and one English. But mutual independence was not achieved and therefore the relationships of respect and trust between the two peoples could not occur. Instead of the union of mind we had the Act of Union of 1800, the coercive inclusion of Ireland in the United Kingdom against the will of the Irish people. And this Act of Union was but the latest chapter in the long history of conquest and domination of the Irish people by the ruling classes of England.

The primary aim of Irish republicans is to dispense once and for all with the legacy of that unjust and coercive Union and to replace it with a new relationship of trust between independent nations. Mutual independence and a new union of mind must be our goal in these negotiations. For Ireland that means the right to national self-determination.

It was best expressed in one sentence in the Proclamation of the Irish Republic of Easter 1916: ``We declare the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies to be sovereign and indefeasible.''

Partition thwarted the full achievement of Irish independence. It deepened divisions within Ireland and embittered further the relationships between Ireland and our nearest neighbour. Most tragic of all was the division of the Irish people.

Sinn Féin does not underestimate the challenge presented to us all by that division, still so deep to this day. We have a monumental task to overcome the fears and suspicions which inhibit political progress. But we must work tirelessly until we are successful in that task.

To our unionist brothers and sisters we offer the hand of friendship.

We look forward to joining with them in building a new Ireland where political relationships are based on respect for the rights of each individual citizen within the nation, and of each section of the nation.

We represent a section of the Irish nation which has suffered discrimination and repression for many decades. We have a vested interest in ensuring that in a new Ireland the rights of minorities are protected by the soundest of constitutional guarantees.

The constitutional and political status quo with which we have had to live for the past 75 years has manifestly failed. The root of the failure is the constitutional connection with England. As an Irish republican party we say clearly that that connection must be broken. We assert the independence of our country. We wish to replace the denomination Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter with the common name of Irishmen and Irishwomen.

We believe that it is possible for all of us on this island to move together to a new political and constitutional dispensation. We have the right and the ability to determine our future. Let us do so.


PS
Brits out refers to the army of occupation
who pratrolled the streets, did dawn raids
enforced curfews and what I can't forgive them for they painted my cousins dog green, the abusive bastards


(Edited by peaccenicked at 6:40 pm on Feb. 5, 2002)


(Edited by peaccenicked at 6:44 pm on Feb. 5, 2002)

[Anonymous]

Alrght, lets say Bertie and Fanna Fáil make deals with the brit gov and United Ireland is. I would like to see how this works out. Some say that if Sinn Fein took over and then got a united ireland that the Protestants and unionists would be persecuted. But if Bertie was still in control i dont think they would be. Sinn Fein would learn how to properly govern EIRE AND NORTHERN EIRE then i would support them and give them my vote and so would others.

Anyone want to comment, maybe it can be bettered.

[Supermodel]

So you'd like a party in power that has to learn as it goes?

These are smart people. They have already figured it out. They just won't tell the people what it is.

[peaccenicked]

I have met Sinn Fienners, over the last 30 years, indeed , they are just as smart as most people but to give the such heinous motives without any evidence
is pro imperialist buffoonary. Bigotry and sectarianism
are outright enemies of the average republican. you will
not find many who does not love this song

Protestant Men
Traditional
It was back in history's page, the story's told of a Napper Tandy brave and bold
With his scarlet and green, he then was seen with his big long gun his fighting men
And they beat at the drum, they fired their gun and they shook the English establishment
And the Lords and the Peers they then put fears and Grattan got his Parliament

So here's to those great Protestant Men
Who gave their lives to free our land
All the people sang their praises then
For those brave United Irishmen

In Belfast town there lived a man and his name was Samuel Neilson
A minister's son, Presbyterian, and the paper called the Northern Star
There was Henry Joy, the Green Volunteers and Thomas Russell and McCabe and McTeir
And to them was known a man Wolfe Tone and they formed the first United Men

So here's to those great Protestant Men
Who gave their lives to free our land
All the people sang their praises then
For those brave United Irishmen

So you sow your laws with dragons teeth and soon you'll see that you've sowed the seeds of bigotry
Be Englands fool divide they'll rule so they set to break the United Men
And they killed them in the fields and some in jail and some upon the Gallows high
When Willie Orr died his very last cry was "Unite and fight brave Irishmen"

So here's to those great Protestant Men
Who gave their lives to free our land
All the people sang their praises then
For those brave United Irishmen

Cast dissensions to the wind let all men lend to the common name of an Irishman
For across historys page to rant and rage men crossed the pails of bigotry
There was the men of '98 no sadder fate, Lord Edward, Tone and the brothers Sheres
It was Emmet's plea in 18 and 3 when he tried to set our country free

So here's to those great Protestant Men
Who gave their lives to free our land
All the people sang their praises then
For those brave United Irishmen


(Edited by peaccenicked at 7:22 pm on Feb. 6, 2002)


(Edited by peaccenicked at 7:23 pm on Feb. 6, 2002)

[CommieBastard]

Im not going to read everything that peaccenicked has written, because it is basically the same old stuff said again.

Supermodel, Sinn Fein has never said they support ethnic cleansing or relocation, and speculation on that point is worthless. Personally, i don't think that is their intention.
They simply wish to reunite this nationalist ideal of a perfect Ireland. Nationalist ideals are complete inventions and completely pointless.
The nationalist ideal takes peoples attention away from the true fight that they should be expending their efforts on. They struggle to reunite these peculiar historical notions of nation, which are complete inventions, for no purpose whatsoever. Nations are a nonsense and fighting for them is equally so.
Fight for your brethren.
Your brethren are not those of your own ethnicity or creed.
Your brethren are not those born in the same region as you.
Your brethren is every signle human being.

Fight the internationalist fight.
Fight for everyone.
Do not expend your efforts in the game of redrawing national boundaries, for in the end the aim is to destroy them completely.
Unification of all mankind must be our goal, because without it, we will never have true equality, and therefore never have true socialism.

[peaccenicked]

"They struggle to reunite these peculiar historical notions of nation, which are complete inventions, for no purpose whatsoever"
From another thread I quoted the SSP position.
"The SSP should adopt a position on Ireland based upon the Bolshevik tradition of consistent democracy in national questions."
Nations exist. They are a product of bourgeois development.
Here is Karl Marx from The Communist manifesto.
"(1) In the national struggles of the proletarians of the different countries, they point out and bring to the front the common interests of the entire proletariat, independently of all nationality.
A united Ireland is a good thing here. If the proletariat can not unite in Ireland what chance do we have. You seem to be saying we should ,maintain the border, ie
not struggle for it to be removed because this is done in the name of Irish nationalism, it is not a task of revolution. It is continuation of bourgeois development.
Traditionally marxists have supported the democratic content of the bourgeois revolution. We are not here considering any notion of nation other than that what exists and that what will come to exist in the process of revolution.



I

[revolutionary]

I agree with all you comrades, and thanks for the info/debate

[revolutionary]

....and those slightly fuck up but wicked songs

[CommieBastard]

the problem with saying that the nation of ireland must be united, is how exactly you define nations. You cannot. A nation is a supposedly independant cultural, ethnic or religious societal unit. It is not actually based on geography. Geographical boundaries are even more contrived than boundaries based upon the presence of peoples.
If you truly HAVE to unite the irish proletariat, then that means you also have to conquer new york, and also many other places worldwide.
The fact of the matter is that the term irish as a distinction from english or british is a nonsense, because there is only one type of human, and that is a human.
To fight to 'unite' ireland is a nonsense, because you could name or claim anywhere as deservedly being part of ireland.
Now, i am not saying you should maintain the border, and therefore the status quo.
I am saying you should be fighting for three things:
1. The increased equality, freedom and solidarity of your country.
2. The increased standard of living of your people (as long as it is not at the expense of other's)
3. The increased connectedness of your nation with other nations, by means of integration and the destruction of borders, and also therefore the transmitting of your socialist ideas into their system.

[peaccenicked]

you are somewhat of a philistine. I think.
here is lenin on Marx.
Marx's position on this question is most clearly expressed in the following extracts from his letters:

"I have done my best to bring about this demonstration of the English workers in favour of Fenianism. . . . I used to think the separation of Ireland from England impossible. I now think it inevitable, although after the separation there may come federation." This is what Marx wrote to Engels on November 2, 1867.

In his letter of November 30 of the same year he added:

". . . what shall we advise the English workers? In my opinion they must make the Repeal of the Union [Ireland with England, i.e., the separation of Ireland from England] (in short, the affair of 1783, only democratised and adapted to the conditions of the time) an article of their pronunziamento. This is the only legal and therefore only possible form of Irish emancipation which can be admitted in the programme of an English party. Experience must show later whether a mere personal union can continue to subsist between the two countries.

". . . What the Irish need is:

"1) Self-government and independence from England;

"2) An agrarian revolution. . . ."

Marx attached great importance to the Irish question and delivered hour-and-a-half lectures on this subject at the German Workers' Union (letter of December 17, 1867).

In a letter dated November 20, 1868, Engels spoke of "the hatred towards the Irish found among the English workers", and almost a year later (October 24, 1869), returning to this subject, he wrote:

"Il n'y a qu'un pas [it is only one step] from Ireland to Russia. . . . Irish history shows what a misfortune it is for one nation to have subjugated another. All the abominations of the English have their origin in the Irish Pale. I have still to plough my way through the Cromwellian period, but this much seems certain to me, that things would have taken an other turn in England, too, but for the necessity of military rule in Ireland and the creation of a new aristocracy there."

If you read Marx carefully you will also see that he believes that the workers struggle will have a national character at first. Nations exist. You can define them this way than that. They also have State. In this case
part of a another country is still part of the British state.
A brutal colonial power. If you are trying to call the statelet a country of its own then why is still largely part of the british state.

[tyronelad]

First of all, SF ain't communist. They aren't really anything at the point. The IRA's "Green Book" (training mannual) continuously points to a democratic socialist republic as the long term aim of the republican movement. This, in effect, means they do not really have to worry about such socialist ideals in the meantime, as the 'primary objective' is getting the 'Brits' out.

Gerry Adams was involved in socialist street politics long before he rose the ranks of the IRA-SF. He protested at the Building of the Divis Flats in the 60's, and led a protest at the lack of safety features along busy roads in West Belfast (these included protestant areas). He is hoping Sf will gain popularly in the South, and proclaims socialist methods and objectives as a main feature of thier manifesto (his knowledge of socialist writings is exceptional, espec. James Connolly, an internationalist of the 1916 rising).

In relation to comments about SF being in the dark at Westminister due to them being unable to debate, well this is open to your own opinion. SF only began to take thier local council seats after the Hunger Strikes, but the House of Commons would be to big of a step for them.

The Communist IRSP never believed in not taking seats in local councils, as they seen this as counter productive, and denying those whom elected them of their voice. Nationalists did take thier seats at Westminister during the time of Daniel O'Connel (i think) but i know this was to draw attention to Ireland by using thier speaking time to disrupt parliament to watse time at every avaiable opportunity.

As for CB, i was always told "ireland is united- its the people who are divided..." and its so true... maybe if paramilitarism was stamped out, the unionist working class could develop a more vocal and supportive politcal group- the PUP (UVF's poliyical wing) has a few promising faces, but they are a dying breed....