Why is America not free to you people?

[NYC4Ever]

I understand why you guys admire Che Guevarra. He was trying his best to make the world better but still failed. Liberty is always better than equality. The ultimate free will lies in liberty which the United States embodies. While I do not believe in Globalization and neo-liberalism because those are forced capatalism ideologies, I still believe that the United States is the freest nation on the Earth. The more and more you show me Anti-War protestors in America the more and more I see that America is still free. I dislike the collectivist thought and mob rule that communism enforces. Instead of re-making our country, we should try our best to get rid of the corruption in America. I would like to have a healthy objective debate, please. No vulgarity.

[Louis Pio]

Instead of re-making our country, we should try our best to get rid of the corruption in America.

How would you see this coming about? Politics is first and foremost economic interests. Do you really think you could get rid of corruption without booting out all of the etablishment?

[Commie Girl]

You need to read Noam Chomsky's book Hegemony or Survival....then tell me why you believe the U$ is a good country and symbol to the rest of the world?

[NYC4Ever]

Well I have more Libertarian leanings than Republican. So Yes, some of the establishment needs to go and alot of it needs to be the Democrats, whom alot of you(sorry to generalize) see as the lesser of two evils. But, I don't share the collectivist mindset. There is corruption under factions of the government not the whole establishment.

[NYC4Ever]

I used to be into Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn, and even jumped on the anti-war bandwagon. I know alot of what you guys talk about. But I want to ask: Why do you guys believe that Communism works, considering all of the failed attempts by the USSR and North Korea being a giant concentration camp.

[(*]

For one, it is not as "free" as Canada

Are Americans free to travel to Cuba?
You are not free to use marijuana
And now we have things like the Patriot Act, which are taking aways some "freedoms"

[NYC4Ever]

No I do not agree with the Patriot act, that much I can give you. I have heard that the free health care is really shoddy but then again I do not know cus I've never been to Canada. Legalization of Marijuana is up to the state to decide not the federal government. You make pretty good points, but thats what I mean about fixing the establishment not recreating it into a socialist, or worse a communist one. You guys are such collectivists. Liberty and free will is about choice and thats what we have the most in the United States, is choice.
Most of the government sponsered stuff we have here are useless and not up to speed. This country has always been about the individual not the society. So even when this country was founded it was always an ememy to Marxism. But the very fact this site is up and you can pick up a book about communism and have a rally like ANSWER, shows that this nations is still free.

[NYC4Ever]

Most of the nations you guys defend are seriously over rated and all appalling. The way Tibetan monks were treated and the massacre of Tiananmen square. If there is any opposition there is bloodshed. Why?
I will give you an example: Chile in 1973 Dictator Pinochet supported Neo-Liberalism and took down any objection. Thousands of Chileans died. That is forced capatalism as much as communism is forced Socialism. It's not right. The corrupt United States at the time was so worried about the Cold War that they and USSR were playing for the governments of third world nations. No one gained anything but bloodshed. Today our fight with terrorism is due to remove the errors of the Cold War. Why do you guys support the extreme left? And why do you guys support Middle Eastern "militias"?

[Louis Pio]

and have a rally like ANSWER,

Well don't people get clubbed, mazed etc by the police in the USA? That's just my impression. And how are the Democrats different? They seem to be just as corrupt as the republicans. As I see it freedom is when you don't have to worry about the next payment of rent, food and so on. In the US you even have a very large precentage living under the poverty line. How can such a rich society not provide for all it's citizens? (well probably because someone takes most of the wealth...)

[Louis Pio]

That is forced capatalism as much as communism is forced Socialism.

You seem to think Stalinism is communism. Just because they perverted the word don't make it true.

Btw you seem to generalise too much to have a rational discussion. People on this board has quite diverting views.

[NYC4Ever]

I do believe that both Democrats and Republicans have their share of corruption. You cannot force people to share their wealth. It is their choice. I believe in compassionate conservatism, where the private sector willingly gives back the communities. That is true free will. You say that people in the US are living below the poverty line but many in Eastern Europe are lving in horrid conditions due to the corrupt former USSR. Why trust the government? Why let the state rule over the individual? Our nations is based upon free markets.

[NYC4Ever]

Ok, I agree Im generalzing and I appologize. And Im not saying that Communism can't work, but its just that man cannot be trusted. Especially the state.

[Louis Pio]

That is true free will. You say that people in the US are living below the poverty line but many in Eastern Europe are lving in horrid conditions due to the corrupt former USSR.

It will take along time for those companies to give just a small percentage back from the wealt they accumulated. In Britain after the industrial revolution people died of hunger because of a system like that. Why should it be different now?
And concerning Eastern Europe, I actually went there before the wall fell and after. And to me it seems that it was capitalism that made people poor. That's why some people actually want to go back to the old system even though it had many faults. Planned economy can't function without democracy in every aspect of the line of production. That's why it crumbled in Eastern Europe.
Btw you don't have a state under communism. You should maybe try to read a bit on the subject. Some Marx, Engells or Lenin? Because you make assumptions which could be easily clarified by looking into it.

[NYC4Ever]

We capatalists call anything in total control, the state. So now they're defending the old system of the USSR after you called it un-true communism considering that they want to return to the old system? The industrial revolution in Britian was a corrupt and horrid system. The same way you talk about Stalinism I say the same to that. Besides there wasn't a big middle class at that time.
Communism would not and will not work in the United States is my biggest point. Besides communism does not consist of free will. That to me is immoral. Are the people that swim across to Miami greedy because they do not want to help the current Cuban society? What is the perfect communist nation to you? Is there one at all, because first of all I do not believe that there will ever be a perfect nation.

[BuyOurEverything]

The problem, NYC4Ever, is that you're creating a false sort of dichotomy between what is best for the individual and what is best for the 'masses.' This is a classic falacy of conservatice thought. This fails to take into acount a few things. First, the 'masses' are made up of indivuiduals, hence what is good for the masses is good for alot of individuals. Second, by refering to 'the individual' you are already dehumanizing and deindividualizing them, something you accuse leftists of doing. You say do what is good for the individual. Which individual? Laissaiz-Faire capitalism certainly isn't good for the individual working in the factory.

You also claim that people should not be forced to share their wealth, another classic position of the right. The problem is you fail to take into acount why it's 'their' wealth in the first place. Say you own a factory, and employ workers to create a product. You pay the workers shitty wages and pocket the profit. You claim that it is now your money and you should not have to distribute it against your will. However, it was the workers who created the wealth, not you. And why did you own the factory in the first place? Perhaps you inherited it, perhaps you bought it with profits from another factory. It is really the capitalist system which allows you to create 'your wealth,' it is not something which you simply create.

I'm also curious regarding your critisism of the Industrial Revolution, considering that is a pretty good example of laissaiz-faire capitalism, which you seem to be advocating.

Finally, I'd ask you to elaborate on your comment 'communism does not consiste of free will.'

[Bradyman]

I think, NYC4ever, that a lot of the people on this board believe that communism is a statless society.

For te most part, us communists, believe completely in freedom. Freedom to do whatever you want, so long as it doesn't take away the freedom of others. Smoke whatever you want, read whatever you want, do whatever you want. So long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. Unfortunetly this is exactly what capitalism does, it hurts people, mainly by exploitation.

Those that have a lot of money exploit the workers by not paying them the full worth of their value since it is the workers that actually work. Thus, the rich, the capitalist, makes money off the labor of others. This means there are a whole class of people who do virtually nothing, and yet reap all the profits while the majority of the people get a small share of what they deserve. Communism and socialism corrects this problem by delivering those what they deserve.

In this sense people have far greater freedom. Now every person has the ability to find something they want to do, learn as much as they want to, etc. and at the same time recieve all they deserve for what they do.

I think, NYC4ever, that you have heard to much of the "evil" communism from all sorts of propaganda.

[NYC4Ever]

You're missing my point. I'm not saying that it can't work, I'm saying that it wont work because then that would mean that everyone would have to be a good chap and follow the rules. And it seems to me that in China with the mounds killed by the Red Army, there must be something wrong. Remember that both are ideologies. I dont consider America to be the perfect example but damn near close compared to any examples of Communism out there. If it was up to me I would cancel the IMF, because I believe its useless, relax immigration laws and demand higher wages and stay out of other countries business. I too hate to see the corruption in both forms of ideas. But this is man. What I meant by free will and the individual is that they dont always have to do whats best for the society. It's their choice. Government should be there to undue the corruption which I admit that the US fails to do sometimes. But I would never scrap the whole system for communism or even socialism.

[shyguywannadie]

I wonder if Sherman Austin thinks the USA is free? :lol:

[NYC4Ever]

Now what was the link that he had on his site that caused the government to go ga-ga on him?

[BuyOurEverything]

NYC4Ever: How exactly would you demand higher wages? Or more specifically, how would you enforce them? Also, since you said you want to stay out of other country's buisness, does that mean you are anti-war? Also, if possible, could you address my first post?

[Louis Pio]

I'm saying that it wont work because then that would mean that everyone would have to be a good chap and follow the rules.

Why do you think that? The same can be said about capitalism.

[shyguywannadie]

a link? so it wasnt even his website? oh it all maked sence now, how right the yanks are. :lol:

[NYC4Ever]

So let me get this straight. He had a website linking a bomb making site to his during the time of the whole Sept. 11th craze. He was taken in under the patriot act (which I do not agree with), and you expect the government not to freak out? He was lucky that our goverment isn't the radical police state you guys are scared of that they didn't shoot him, like they do in China and North Korea. Hopefully he will get out soon. There was a Muslim teacher at UC Berkeley who called for Islamic Jihad against the US, and I saw him go unbruised. Have you seen the college campuses lately?

[shyguywannadie]

no, what the hell is a college campus? some yankee teen college orgy?

We dont have college campus bullshit wank stain words in the UK.



Hey can i have a freedom fry please??????
cry baby cry, fucking yanks so fucking childish

[NYC4Ever]

One at a time with the questions,guys. I would consider myself anti-war,yes, since I would not intervene in other people's buisness unless invited. But then again the Iraq war is based on the wa on terror. We'll get into that one later. As of now, the two countries you guys opposed the most America and Israel are the two that promote liberty and democracy. As for Sherman Austin, he was done wrong, and hopefully the situation will be fixed.

[NYC4Ever]

I asked for no vulgarity please. And I was posting for the American citizens that believe in Communism.

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 09:40 PM
Liberty is always better than equality.
The opposite of equality is inequality, not freedom. The opposite of freedom is slavery, not equality.


While I do not believe in Globalization and neo-liberalism because those are forced capatalism ideologies, I still believe that the United States is the freest nation on the Earth. The more and more you show me Anti-War protestors in America the more and more I see that America is still free.

I don't live there so I can't know. But it doesn't seem so free.


Why do you guys believe that Communism works, considering all of the failed attempts by the USSR and North Korea being a giant concentration camp.

In fact you won't find many of such individuals here. And by the way if you really think North Korea's government is "communist", you've been brainwashed.

[Louis Pio]

the two countries you guys opposed the most America and Israel are the two that promote liberty and democracy

Hmm I would disaggre with that. Most people would like to live without that specific version of "liberty" and "democracy". Btw imo those words have lost all meaning. But do you think it's promoting liberty and democracy when treating the palestinians as they do?

[NYC4Ever]

The cold War is not over and we're trying to undue all of the mess we've made fighting the Commies you support. Now, while you say that you don't suport Stalinism, at the same time I do not support everything my country did during their whole campaign against the Soviet Union. Likewise I would rather try and fix the kinks in our system rather than scrapping it all for Socialism.
You guys run to the UN for two reasons: America and Israel. While the UN turns a blind eye to the same Communist thugs running China and North Korea who you believe are not practicing real Communism. When Israel defends itself it called terrorism, but when Palestinians use children to blow themselves up as martrys it's liberation. correct?

[Pawn Power]

i am an american citizen and i absolutly belive in communism.
Their are so many reason i belive america is not free it will take me all day to type them all in, so i will say some the the more obviouse and important ones.
The US is run by the wealthy upper class, the uper class have no care for the working class and only use them to profite, this includes big buisiness leaders and political leaders.
We are also slaves to money and wages. Hard working peaple are stuck in this endless cycle of low wages for hard work while the bosses do nothing and get all of the benifites.
We are also not free because we are not given the right to medical treatment or our lives. You need mony to recive special treatments in this country which could result in life or death so basically the poor working class are dinied the right to live.
Kids are also no given equall education possibilites. Kids living in the iner cities or poor areas do not recive the same education as the wealty. Not to mention the increadably high price of college which the working class can not afford because they ar not free.

WE are not free because the wealthy upper class runs our lives, becasue we do not get the benifites of our labor, because we are denied medical treatment, and becasue we do not all get education. THATS WHY WE ARE NOT FREE

[Louis Pio]

NYC4Ever I don't trust the UN. Once again you make assumptions.
The UN is used by the US when they see fit. Or by France etc etc.

And in relation to Israel/Palestine this conflict has only ended up in this mess because USA and Israel didn't care much for the palestinians wasting away in the refugeecamps. When you treat people like shit they will react.

[NYC4Ever]

First of all the working class can become the wealthy class in America. So do you think that many immigrants that sometimes come here with nothing and make it are just ones that beat the system? The very reason that you are allowed to support and condone communism to others in the country is another reason why America is free. There is corruption in both our political parties, yet the Democrats are the closest thing to socialism and do nothing but exploit the working class with their promises of raising taxes and welfare. These are problems that we must fix within our system rather than starting over with socialist ideology.
Every nation that I mention that is Communist, you guys keep saying that it is not. Well the same goes for capatalsim, but atleast America has a better track record than the nations practicing supposed Communism. The UN is the most vile corrupt order of nations ever assembled including the US(mostly used by Democrats). They only serve the purpose of keeping the US in check whenever a Republican President is in the white house, and to add more resolutions to the growing list against Israel. Yet, there are hardly none against North Korea, China, and other nations that are not practicing real Communism. France and the socialist EU is heavily corrupt and hide their facades under international law. Leftists and the UN cannot stand that sight of America and Israel. But they can certainly respect the corruption in the Mid East and the Stalinistic Iraq that once was considering all of the opposition towards the war. Their struggle(Jihad) is to push Israel into the water at no matter what cost and leftists are the first to join in to catch a piece of revolutionary action. Again, I think Im generalizing, but its an observation on my behalf, so I appologize ahead of time. I respect all of your opinions since you guys let me debate.

[Louis Pio]

Well the same goes for capatalsim,

No all of them is capitalist because of their economic system which is .... CAPITALISM (surprise). It seems you confuse the bourgious views you hold with "true" capitalism. But capitalism can also be a dictatorship for that matter.

Btw do you really believe all of the working class could become rich? I mean that is quite illogical. Yes some few individuals can. But the vast majority is condemned to exploitation.

[NYC4Ever]

Glory,
Do you mean the wealthy upper class that some started from the bottom? I could name plenty of wealthy African Americans and Hispanics that give back to their communities because they know that they cannot trust the government to provide. There is no perfect form of ideology because no nation has passed at assembling a perfect nation, even the US. But I consider Capatalism to be the less of two evils in this world. The lesser the government the better. When we have corruption it is the citizens job to expose it and work to fix it.

[(*]

Do you feel at all that corporations dictate american domestic and foreign policy?
I do, and therein lies a huge problem because most corporations (major ones) are driven only by the dollar (greed). This is evident in most countries as a matter of fact. Capitalism is partly to blame (Although most of the blame should be assigned to human err). People are driven by greed, capitalism facilitates that desire. You may find that as a positive or a negative. Fortune at what cost? Freedom at what cost?

Governments should serve the people, not themselves and corporations.

[NYC4Ever]

So all of the communist countries right now are not practicing real communism, but all of the corrupt Capatalist countries are practicing real capatalism? No, they are practising greed and should be dealt with. Mexico to me is the poster of corrupt capatalism the same way you see North Korea as a horrible example of communism. Ofcourse Capatalism can be a dictatorship, Chile and Pinochet is a huge example of neo-liberalism gone wrong. People in the working class have an opportunity to make it in this country. Do you not believe that at all? Slowly, little by little America is becoming socialist, so you will have your way. Republicans are getting such a bad name, while Democrats are being praised as heroes(Anyone but Bush campaign). I believe that socialist intervention is seriously screwing up our economy and society altogether. I'm speaking because Clinton was the closest thing as we can get to that ideology. What are you complaining about? The whole world is turning into a Democratic Socialist party. They love the EU and praise them for their policies, and hate the US no matter what. You are winning.

[NYC4Ever]

Well what in the world do you think I was trying to say? Ofcourse I believe the government should serve the people. They should be there to only protect and serve the people. Any intervention with buisness is not right. Why are we disagreeing? About the corruption in America which is evident. Yet what is also evident is our middle class, opportunites and well being . The down side is crime, drugs, and poverty. This is due to the greed and corruption I deem we should fix within our inner cities. This is also due to the choices people make in a free society. Everyone is not a victim.

[Louis Pio]

NYC4Ever I have one advice to you. Read about communism before you go further with this discussion. Read about what communism is from Marx/Engells or Lenin and Trotsky. Because that would make this discussion more relevant. Right now it seems you have no understanding of what the words actually means.
Check out www.marxists.org for sourches

Capitalism can be a dictatorship as I said. There is no "true" capitalism, it is just a system build on the exploitation of others.

[NYC4Ever]

I will take your advice because I do admit I dont have extentsive knowledge of the system as you guys do. So if you believe in true Marxism, why hasn't any nation practised it correctly?

[BuyOurEverything]

NYC4Ever: You're simply repeating yourself and you completely ignored my arguments. Furthermore, you seem to think that the Democrats are somehow socialist (which they're not), the Democrats are somehow more popular the the Republicans (last time I checked George Bush was the president), and that the people here support the UN and the EU (you'd be hard pressed to find anybody here that support either). I'm not even sure what we're debating anymore, as the subject seems to change every time you post, so I'm not sure I can really rebutt anything you've said. Anyhow, I suggest you post in another thread, or start another thread with a more specific topic.

[NYC4Ever]

Like I said the Dems, are the closest thing to socialism in this country and yes they are popular within the working and minorities and most liberals because they promise things they cannot do. And no one has yet given me a reason as to why no nation has practised real communism, and why corrupt capatalism is real capatalism? Many liberals ackowledge the UN and the EU because it is the only defense against the US and Israel, no matter how corrupt it really is. Honestly, to answer your arguments I would have to go back and read it all, and type up a big thing as well, and right now im just reading all of the short posts, sorry. Lazy American. But I promise I will get back with you. You guys still make an good case for Communism though I would still not accept it considering all of the nations practising it right now are heavily under dictator rule and overwhelming poverty.

[BuyOurEverything]

Like I said the Dems, are the closest thing to socialism in this country

Silly me, I thought the Socialist Party was the closest thing to socialism.


and yes they are popular within the working and minorities and most liberals

I never denied this, I simply refuted your claim that the Democrats were far more popular.


because they promise things they cannot do.

Correct.


And no one has yet given me a reason as to why no nation has practised real communism

Well fist, there can be no such thing as a communist nation, it's a contradiction in terms. Second, Marx said communism would develop from advanced capitalism, all the 'communist countries' you listed were never capitalist. Plus, weren't you just saying how true capitalism has never been practiced?


why corrupt capatalism is real capatalism

Because capitalism is inevitably corrupt. The only motive is the profit motive, therefore people have no incentive to be fair or obey rules.


Many liberals ackowledge the UN and the EU because it is the only defense against the US and Israel, no matter how corrupt it really is.

This is correct, however I don't think you'll find many liberals here. Plus, there are plenty of corrupt institutions supported by American capitalists and conservatives.


Honestly, to answer your arguments I would have to go back and read it all, and type up a big thing as well, and right now im just reading all of the short posts, sorry. Lazy American. But I promise I will get back with you.

:lol: OK, fair enough.


You guys still make an good case for Communism though I would still not accept it considering all of the nations practising it right now are heavily under dictator rule and overwhelming poverty.

I would first urge you to take a look at what those countries were like pre-revolution before you judge them now. Not to mention, the US actively participates in activities intended to undermine them, such as sponsoring terrorism and paying people to become dissentors, specifically in Cuba. Also, plenty of people are unfairly imprisoned in first world capitalist countries, including (even especially) the US.

[NYC4Ever]

Good thing that your post was several short one combined. Anyways I agree with you on several points. Especially about the corruption in the US and the involvement in other nations. The Communist countries as of NOW are not fairly practicing communism because I really don't think you can practice any ideology to the truest form because men are corrupt. Americans will never fully accept socialism, but Democrats cater to the left and leftist ideals. The way we're both getting at it's a never ending cylce of capatalism at it's peak and communism at its lowest. I say if I had it my way I would run things this way through capatalism as much as you say you would run things this way through communism. I dont believe there is a true anything in the end. Atleast in capatalism someone, anyone whether black, white whatever can try and achieve their goals and better their lives. Mexico is a horrible example of capatalism, so why would Mexicans cross the border into a more corrupt one? How is the revolution going in Mexico? Thats one government I would scrap, I admit.
You know that alot of nations are integrating socialism and captalism? The EU is being praised for this. You can have all of the capatalism you want as long as it benefits the state. This is more open to corruption if you ask me and shoots down both of our ideologies. Anyways, I'll let ya have the last word, and name me some good books to read so I can understand this ideology a bit further instead of my quick college government class book. :D

[Xvall]

Liberty is always better than equality.

Equality is liberty, in our eyes. Don't believe us? Go back one hundred years and ask any minority how much 'libery' they have. They won't be able to tell you much.


While I do not believe in Globalization and neo-liberalism because those are forced capatalism ideologies, I still believe that the United States is the freest nation on the Earth.

Understandable. The standards of living in the United States are fairly decent compared to other less fortunate nations in the world, and United States' citizens have many rights. The main problem many of us would have would be that oftentimes the United States' government infringes on these rights, and much of the prosperity that is the United States comes from less fortunate people in other nations.


The more and more you show me Anti-War protestors in America the more and more I see that America is still free.

Most of us don't claim that America is Nazi Germany, or that it is entirely unfree. I'm well aware that we have freedoms in America. My being on this website exemplifies that.


we should try our best to get rid of the corruption in America.

Well, we're all with you on that part. The only problem is that everyone seems to have a different idea to utilize in order to stop corruption. Some want corrupt officials fired. Some want corrupt officials set on fire. This is where everyone's differences tend to arise from.


I would like to have a healthy objective debate, please. No vulgarity.

No problem with me. Some people are quite rude, though.

[Bradyman]

NYC4ever, first off, you do not seem to understand neither capitalism nor communism.

You seem to be glued into the idea that Democrats are socialists and Republicans are capitalists. First off, they're both capitalists.


The lesser the government the better.

We can't agree with you more.

You don't seem to understand that socialism, communism, and anarchy are far different from what you hear on TV and far different than what is prescribed by Democrats. We are not supporters of all those "totalitarian" governments you speak of and how they show that communism can't work.

Communism for us is very much different from the way it was concieved by dictators such as Stalin.

[BuyOurEverything]

The Communist countries as of NOW are not fairly practicing communism

It's not communism, it's socialism. Communism is a stateless society, despite what you may have heard.


Democrats cater to the left and leftist ideals.

A common misconception. The difference between the two parties is neglegable. They are both capitalist.


Atleast in capatalism someone, anyone whether black, white whatever can try and achieve their goals and better their lives.

This is false. I'm not really sure how you came to this conclusion, so I'm not sure how to address it, however capitalism does not allow an oppertunity for everybody, and in fact promotes racism as a way of dividing the proletariat.


Mexico is a horrible example of capatalism, so why would Mexicans cross the border into a more corrupt one?

It doesn't really have anything to do with corruption, it has to do with employment oppertunity. There's plenty of employers in the US willing to pay them shit to work, which is often better than no work at all in Mexico. However, I agree with you that Mexico is very corrupt.


You know that alot of nations are integrating socialism and captalism?

Actually what's happening is the bourgeious is making minor and reletively meaningless consessions in order to disuade and destabalize any sort of popular revolution.


You can have all of the capatalism you want as long as it benefits the state. This is more open to corruption if you ask me and shoots down both of our ideologies.

I think it's a common, and perhaps inevitable, result of capitalism. The ruling class wants to stay in power so they make minor consessions, as I mentioned above. I agree with you insofar as that it's bullshit.


give me some good books to read so I can understand this ideology a bit further instead of my quick college government class book.

Well awesome, good luck with reading. If you looking for books to read, I'd check out this thread. (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=23891)

[lucid]

blah blah blah bush is a dictator blah blah... america blah blah empirialst blah blah capitalism is evil blah blah fat greedy american blah blah bush should die blah blah blah blah jews should find somewhere else to live blah blah.

[no_parsaran]

so who here believes that living in a country that can now legally detain you for long periods of time without a charge is a "free" country? even the voting system makes me sick. if you live in a small state (one that only gets a max of 3 votes in the electoral system) your vote basicaly isnt worth that of someones who lives in a big state like texas... coughbushs'homestatecough. you pay bilions and bilions in taxes yet you dont have a proper health care system. sure canada's doesnt run real smooth 100% of the time, but at least our gov't is trying to provide us with one of life's basic essentials. i believe it even states in your constitution that everyone has a right to life..... well guess what? if your too poor; than too bad! remember when those american "contractors"who were killed in iraq a few weeks ago? did n e of you americans see their bodies being dragged through the streets on cnn? no? didnt think so, b/c bush put a publication ban on that material. everyone around the world got to see your "civilians", aka paramilitary sob's, being dragged through the streets and hung from bridges except for you guys, b/c bush new damn well that if it was shown, you guys would be reall pissed and wouldnt re-elect him to continue his campaign of "anti-terrorism". so how free then is your press? oh well besides all the stuff that bush doesnt like, its o.k to publish the rest... im embarassed for you americans not as a canadian or as a member of a 1st world nation; but as a human being, who gets to watch you guys tear up the world for your own means. if bush wins, hell id even want to come down and take a pot shot at his open-topped convertible...

[lucid]

A country that holds its citizens for long periods of time is not free. A country that holds fanatical terrorists for long periods of times is smart.

[no_parsaran]

ok fine. they hold fanatical terrorists now, but whats to say that in five years time they wont "hold" people who believe in left wing ideas such as most of us here? that would be smart.... eliminate people who dont think like us, who dont have the same ideas as us, the same views. whats gonna stop them from arresting people who speak out against the gov't? they might be threats cant they? so why not arrest everyone who doesnt vote for bush next elecetion? thats how hitler did it, thats how il duce did it, and thats how bush will do it if hes not stopped. kerry is no boy scout either, but at least he doesnt doesnt call mass murder an acceptable form of foreign policy.

[NYC4Ever]

So much anger there Mr. Canadian. From this whole thread that I started I've gathered that niether ideology works because it will never be practiced the right way. And also that the biggest threat to both of our ideologies is the merger of capatalism and socialism. The EU is being praised for yes appeasing the lower class to avoid a popular revoultion and same is going on in America with the Democratic party. Capatalism defeats itself with the rapid numbers growing greedy and the working class growing even faster, I agree with this, then someone who read Marx comes into play and people revolt like in Cuba and I hope Mexico. Then that bunch will then turn into a totalitarian regime that murders it's hero....like Che. I have yet to see one Communist country even attempt real communism without falling into stalinism. It would take a miracle for someone to solve all of the world's economical problems. Can anyone just practice what they preach?
We share a common enemy and thats the EU, and their ruling elitist society appeasing to their citizens to remain uptop. So not only do they use capatalism for their good fortune but tax the hell outta the workers for really shit projects.

[BuyOurEverything]

blah blah blah bush is a dictator blah blah... america blah blah empirialst blah blah capitalism is evil blah blah fat greedy american blah blah bush should die blah blah blah blah jews should find somewhere else to live blah blah.

Some great arguments there.


sure canada's doesnt run real smooth 100% of the time, but at least our gov't is trying to provide us with one of life's basic essentials

Ya right, the Canadian government is just so benevolent... Face it, Canada's just America Light.


remember when those american "contractors"who were killed in iraq a few weeks ago? did n e of you americans see their bodies being dragged through the streets on cnn? no?

I saw em and I live in the States.


b/c bush new damn well that if it was shown, you guys would be reall pissed and wouldnt re-elect him to continue his campaign of "anti-terrorism

Actually it garnered more support for the war. People saw the bodies and thought "oh look at those fuckin terrorist arabs, they just want to kill and torture Americans." Of course they never thought to consider the fact that they were in fact mercenaries hired to occupy Iraq against the will of its citizens. It shocks people into patriotism.


im embarassed for you americans not as a canadian or as a member of a 1st world nation; but as a human being

Right, cause Paul Martin is such a great guy.


A country that holds its citizens for long periods of time is not free. A country that holds fanatical terrorists for long periods of times is smart.

ok fine. they hold fanatical terrorists now

The problem is you don't know they're terrorists, because they haven't gotten trials.


ok fine. they hold fanatical terrorists now, but whats to say that in five years time they wont "hold" people who believe in left wing ideas such as most of us here? that would be smart.... eliminate people who dont think like us, who dont have the same ideas as us, the same views. whats gonna stop them from arresting people who speak out against the gov't? they might be threats cant they? so why not arrest everyone who doesnt vote for bush next elecetion? thats how hitler did it, thats how il duce did it, and thats how bush will do it if hes not stopped.

Man, you're fuckin paranoid and delusional. You also seem to have no idea what the issue is.


kerry is no boy scout either, but at least he doesnt doesnt call mass murder an acceptable form of foreign policy.

Yes he does.


From this whole thread that I started I've gathered that niether ideology works because it will never be practiced the right way.

I'm not quite sure how you came to that conclusion.

[NYC4Ever]

I mean that eventually man is corrupt and will never practice true communism. Thus seeing all of the failed attempts with all of the totalltarian regimes practicing false communism. Atleast I would like to see communism truly work as much as I would like to see capatalism truly work. As a Libertarian we share a comon goal and thats the hatred and hypocrisy of the EU. That, and the fact that you really hate capatalism altogether :D . but anyways Canada, the EU and others that practice this wierd merger of capatalism and socialism are gaining momentum and it's also hitting home here in the States with the Democratic party. The picture right now is EU good, America bad, communism..really bad. The ruling elite are appeasing the workers to keep them from revolting. The UN doesn't touch the "communist" nations because I think theyre just turning democratically socialist, well with the exception of Cuba and NK.
lol, damnit man Im trying to get somewhere with this. :lol: anyways its really late.

[Louis Pio]

but anyways Canada, the EU and others that practice this wierd merger of capatalism and socialism are gaining momentum

It's not a mix. It's just capitalism. Some people call Denmark were I live socialist. But even though we have a wellfare state (free schools, healthcare, pensions etc) it is still capitalism. And when the economy is bad as now, they try to take all the benefits away. Capitalism will always end up in crises, and when they try to get out of it the workers have to pay the price.

[redfront]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 09:40 PM
I still believe that the United States is the freest nation on the Earth.
Well, then you truly haven't been in many other countries.
Take Denmark (which i coincedently live in :P). We have so much more of your beloved liberties than you do.
In TV we can talk open about sex, gays and communism (even though we have a fairly wright-winged government).
The only right we don&#39;t have, that you do, is that civilians can&#39;t own a gun. But when you think about it, isn&#39;t that a liberty in it self, that you dont are a potential murder-victim every time you leave your house? <_<

I know that it&#39;s harder to run a giant country like U&#036;A, but it surely isn&#39;t the freest in the world. Just think before you write.

[SittingBull47]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 09:40 PM
I understand why you guys admire Che Guevarra. He was trying his best to make the world better but still failed. Liberty is always better than equality. The ultimate free will lies in liberty which the United States embodies. While I do not believe in Globalization and neo-liberalism because those are forced capatalism ideologies, I still believe that the United States is the freest nation on the Earth. The more and more you show me Anti-War protestors in America the more and more I see that America is still free. I dislike the collectivist thought and mob rule that communism enforces. Instead of re-making our country, we should try our best to get rid of the corruption in America. I would like to have a healthy objective debate, please. No vulgarity.
It does not embody freedom, that&#39;s just a nominal motto. There are so many things in this country that prevent a man from living up to his true potential, there is so much red tape and so many things he isn&#39;t allowed to do, say, or think. By this i mean that rumor has it that the infamous red list is still being used under the patriot act. This is most likely true, but under a different name.

[lucid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 04:53 AM

ok fine. they hold fanatical terrorists now

The problem is you don&#39;t know they&#39;re terrorists, because they haven&#39;t gotten trials.


These guys agree with you. (http://www.thisislondon.com/til/jsp/modules/Article/print.jsp?itemId=10352922)

[cubist]

LUCID

your pathetic remarks make me think your not as old as you claim,

stop flaiming if you have nothing to say then don&#39;t bother.

by fanatical terrorists do you mean religous,
if so why is a muslim terroist like al&#39;qeada, sadrs army, palestinian, differ from bushes christian arm of brutality, its the same thing. no one here condones iraq but many here said going into iraq would only inflame the situation with the msulim world and thery&#39;e stance in jihad

[Louis Pio]

LUCID

your pathetic remarks make me think your not as old as you claim,


Yes it could indeed seem that way. Maybe the story bout his job should be seen in that light? :D

[lucid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 02:48 PM
LUCID

your pathetic remarks make me think your not as old as you claim,

stop flaiming if you have nothing to say then don&#39;t bother.

by fanatical terrorists do you mean religous,
if so why is a muslim terroist like al&#39;qeada, sadrs army, palestinian, differ from bushes christian arm of brutality, its the same thing. no one here condones iraq but many here said going into iraq would only inflame the situation with the msulim world and thery&#39;e stance in jihad
Think whatever you want to. I was just poking fun of the fact that most of you would eat your own shit if Bush told you not to. It&#39;s no more pathetic than some of the blind bush bashing that goes on here.

Please show me where Bushs "christian arm" is purposely targeting innecent civilians like these fanatics admit to. Please tell me when Bush ordered airplanes full of civilians to fly into enemy targets. Apples and oranges fella, nothing but apples and oranges.

[Louis Pio]

Think whatever you want to. I was just poking fun of the fact that most of you would eat your own shit if Bush told you not to. It&#39;s no more pathetic than some of the blind bush bashing that goes on here.


Well he is a fanatical rightwing christian. Why should people like him? He can&#39;t even provide jobs. According to the national journal there need to be created 400.000 jobs every month untill the end of 2004 if Bush plan was to succed.
The socalled "recovery" of american economy is going to be a jobless recovery.
Btw why do you waste your time on this site? Are you a mascohist? Because you seem to like the verbal beatings you get.

[elhumano]

After reading the whole post I still cant believe some of you still think that Communism is the greatest thing since sliced bread. NYC4Ever makes better points then anyone i&#39;ve ever read on this forum. He admits the bad points of where the US/capitalist countries sometimes fail, but points out MORE where communism fails. And if you guys are so into communism why dont you just move into a communist country. Move to Iraq or any other one of your choice and become one of them. Something tells me you;ll be *****ing more about not having food, water, heat, and a more corrupted govt. then the US ever had.

[Louis Pio]

And if you guys are so into communism why dont you just move into a communist country. Move to Iraq or any other one of your choice and become one of them. Something tells me you;ll be *****ing more about not having food, water, heat, and a more corrupted govt. then the US ever had.

Sorry but this is just pathetic. Of course people want to change their own country. Communism needs to be international before reaching it&#39;s full potential

I don&#39;t think NYC4Ever makes the best points because 1. he seems to confuse stalinism with communism just as you and 2. he thought capitalism is a political ideology when it is in fact just a economic system.

[God of Imperia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 12:48 AM
I will give you an example: Chile in 1973 Dictator Pinochet supported Neo-Liberalism and took down any objection. Thousands of Chileans died.
Guess who got Pinochet there in the first place?

[lucid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 03:06 PM

Think whatever you want to. I was just poking fun of the fact that most of you would eat your own shit if Bush told you not to. It&#39;s no more pathetic than some of the blind bush bashing that goes on here.


Well he is a fanatical rightwing christian. Why should people like him? He can&#39;t even provide jobs. According to the national journal there need to be created 400.000 jobs every month untill the end of 2004 if Bush plan was to succed.
The socalled "recovery" of american economy is going to be a jobless recovery.
Btw why do you waste your time on this site? Are you a mascohist? Because you seem to like the verbal beatings you get.
Your view of fanatical and mine are obviously different. I agree that he is religious but I don&#39;t think he is anywhere near fanatical about it.

Read whatever you want to about our economy. I think it is recovering nicely from the dot com collapse and most of the people I know, myself included, are doing well. This vision of mile long soup lines isn&#39;t true. Even though you don&#39;t even live here I am sure you know best.

I come here because I like to read left wing garbage.

[Revolt!]

American Foreign Policy since World War 2 has been criminal. Whilst hiding behind a mask of democracy they have continually undermined democracy the world over. They have bombed countries for economic reasons, supported coups to oust left wing governments and installed their own leaders, they have killed, maimed and destroyed.

Whats more, the American media hides most of their transgressions, as Chomsky says, "Any dictator would admire the obedience and uniformity of the U.S Media".


I still believe that the United States is the freest nation on the Earth

This quote seems confusing. First of all, what criterion are you measuring freedom by? Secondly, do you know enough about every single other nation on Earth to make this comment? Seems highly subjective to me.

[NYC4Ever]

Like I said both are communism and capatalism are failed attempts. The guy from Denmark was speaking of things that do happen here as well just not on a big scale. Everytime you guys speak of freedoms, its something immoral and irrelevant. Like free to smoke weed, or free to talk about crap on tv. Who really cares about that? Maybe thats why the EU is turning heavily immoral and I bet that not even in a true communist society would that be applauded.
Anyways, guys remember Im a cappie, so anything that involves heavy taxatation and state control is socialism to me. :D Thats just how it is. Its a sly mix of the two but much more cappie and less soci. Capatalism is turning for the worse and growing horribly immoral and catering to the lazy both rich and poor. That way you describe Communism, is like a utopian society and I would love to see it work but know that man is too corrupted at this point to ever consider it. I mean its similar to compassionate conservatism where you teach kids morals from simple judeo-christian values(doesnt have to be) concepts to contribute back to society through charity and good will. That will never happen either.
Oh and redfront, I think it&#39;s scary that they take away your guns. Do you really trust a government like that? This form of government is sweeping the world and even changing sellout pseudo-communist china. If all this praise of the EU continues people would never want both libertarianism or true communism. Plus, guys do not get angry, Im only asking questions. Its obvious you guys know mor about communism, and it surpprised me that you guys do not support the current commie nations.

[God of Imperia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 03:16 AM
First of all the working class can become the wealthy class in America. So do you think that many immigrants that sometimes come here with nothing and make it are just ones that beat the system?
Don&#39;t you think that for every rich person (by rich I do not mean the middle class) there are ten thousands of poor people? Or even more ...

[Louis Pio]

lucid wrote
Read whatever you want to about our economy. I think it is recovering nicely from the dot com collapse and most of the people I know, myself included, are doing well. This vision of mile long soup lines isn&#39;t true. Even though you don&#39;t even live here I am sure you know best.


Well when even a bourgious programme like 60 min shows it it must have some relevance. Even most bourgious economics agree it will be a jobless recovery.


NYC4Ever wrote
Oh and redfront, I think it&#39;s scary that they take away your guns. Do you really trust a government like that?

Of course. People don&#39;t need to own assault rifles, guns etc. We have less killings in Denmark per person than the US. Actually most of the developed world does.
What is freedom to you anyway? You seem to think it is only getting rich and having the right to wack people when they trespass. In Denmark freedom is: free healthcare, free schools (public schools are not crap here), pensions and money if you get layed of because the sytem can&#39;t provide jobs.

[NYC4Ever]

There you guys go again speaking of what is freedom? Typical philosophy junkie. What is truth? what is freedom? What is blah? Look, if doing all the drugs and working less hours is your idea of freedom then by all means move to Europe, the one continent thats crushing your ideology more than the US by appeasing to the people. That society is generally turning immoral and I bet some you guys can agree with that. America is no better because its slowly following in the same path.
I understand that I confused Communism with Stalinism. Just as much as you confuse the EU as being captalism. We could go in circles arguing this because they are both messing up our idologies. But the simple confusion leads me more to believe that true communism would never work because as long as capatalism is around, then most commie nations will end like the totalitarian regimes. And if your waiting for capatalism to run its course than good luck because the EU is killing off all of your dreams.

[lucid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 03:28 PM

lucid wrote
Read whatever you want to about our economy. I think it is recovering nicely from the dot com collapse and most of the people I know, myself included, are doing well. This vision of mile long soup lines isn&#39;t true. Even though you don&#39;t even live here I am sure you know best.


Well when even a bourgious programme like 60 min shows it it must have some relevance. Even most bourgious economics agree it will be a jobless recovery.


NYC4Ever wrote
Oh and redfront, I think it&#39;s scary that they take away your guns. Do you really trust a government like that?

Of course. People don&#39;t need to own assault rifles, guns etc. We have less killings in Denmark per person than the US. Actually most of the developed world does.
What is freedom to you anyway? You seem to think it is only getting rich and having the right to wack people when they trespass. In Denmark freedom is: free healthcare, free schools (public schools are not crap here), pensions and money if you get layed of because the sytem can&#39;t provide jobs.
I think you are getting a false impression of what is going on over here. People I know are getting along better than they where two years ago.

It seems like Denmark is a great place so you should stay there. Earlier you questioned why I came to this site? I&#39;ll ask you the same. Why do you come here and attack the US instead of enjoying the eutopian life you have in Denmark? You dont live here, you only know what you read, so fuck off. The US is a great place to live.

[Osman Ghazi]

Everytime you guys speak of freedoms, its something immoral and irrelevant. Like free to smoke weed, or free to talk about crap on tv. Who really cares about that?

Yeah, pff, freedom of speech, who gives a shit about that? And freedom of assembly, who needs it? Not me&#33; And as far as immorality goes, you can keep your stinking gods.

[/QUOTE]Maybe thats why the EU is turning heavily immoral and I bet that not even in a true communist society would that be applauded.


You don&#39;t happen to go to www.whatreallyhappened.com, do you? It&#39;s just that the guy who runs it, (apart from being a complete goon) is fanatically opposed to the EU because he realizes that they will soon overpass the U&#036;.

Capatalism is turning for the worse and growing horribly immoral and catering to the lazy both rich and poor.


Haha. Yeah, capitalism really caters to the poor.

That way you describe Communism, is like a utopian society and I would love to see it work but know that man is too corrupted at this point to ever consider it.


I don&#39;t know why you keep saying that &#39;man is too corrupted&#39;. It simply doesn&#39;t make sense. Even if &#39;man is corrupt&#39; (that&#39;s pretty vague) we still seem to be making our society &#39;work&#39; (in the limited sense that capitalism can work) without any overt corruption. And this society encourages greed. So why are we too corrupt for a communist system?

I mean its similar to compassionate conservatism where you teach kids morals from simple judeo-christian values(doesnt have to be) concepts to contribute back to society through charity and good will. That will never happen either.


Actually &#39;compassionate conservatism&#39; is based on faith. Communism is based on reason.

Oh and redfront, I think it&#39;s scary that they take away your guns. Do you really trust a government like that? [QUOTE]

Where do Americans get their crazy &#39;don&#39;t trust the gov&#39;t&#39; complex? A government (ideally) represents its citizens. Therefore, theoretically, it does what its citizens want. The gov is a tool of the people, not an independant entity. Its power stems directly from the people. A government has no power of its own, its power must be given to it by the people, or by a certain section of the people. No matter what though, a gov must have some people supporting and so the crimes are not those of the gov but of the reactionary class which controls it, the bourgeoisie.

[NYC4Ever]

What I dont understand is why Ties would even praise an EU economic nation that is a serious threat to true Communism? It is a threat to Communism as much as Libertarianism. The United States is known for its economic freedoms, society and strong middle class. All of that is vanishing with its appeasment of government intervention which Denmark praises. It cant work in America though, our country is far too individually diverse and numerous. I believe the lesser government the better.

[NYC4Ever]

Osman Ghazi,
I appreciate your comments but you took half of things I posted out of context and I dont really feel like correcting each of them but I feel that the reason communism is based on is somehow forced either way. The faith you speak of is out of good will and I believe that to be free will. I know that the EU is going to take over, its unstoppable. If anyone should be scared its anyone with the hopes of ever wanting true communism. Canada gets praised as well but after all of that praise its just America Light. (quoting someone else).

[Osman Ghazi]

There is no such thing as a &#39;threat to true communism&#39;.
As Zeppelin said &#39;you can crush the flowers but you can&#39;t stop the spring&#39;.
There is no amount of concessions that can be given to the working class that will stop them from achieving freedom. It can only be slowed.


economic freedoms

This term is definately the one that I hate most. It simply isn&#39;t true. What is an economic freedom, first of all. It is the freedom to exploit your labourers to make money for yourself. But not everyone can partake in this cake. It takes capital to make capital. The poor lack capital. Therefore, the poor cannot make capital. The great fallacy of &#39;economic freedoms&#39; can be seen through one tiny fact: a minimum wage is the opposite of econmic freedoms. Apparently, it is &#39;freedom&#39; to be paid 2&#036; an hour.

[NYC4Ever]

Now I agree with you there, Ghazi. I dont think its right the way people are getting paid. With all the government regulations intact it makes the "ruling class" to up their prices and lower wages. The appeasment is just a facade, and I know that people are buying into it, so yes it is slowing communism down but the cycle is appeasment then back to corruption, and so on. With the image that communism has given to the world through its failed attempts, people will not accept it and continue to believe in cappie propaganda. Right now the whole world is slowing your process down. Why crush the US which wants to speed up the clock on cappie nations, aren&#39;t they helping you?

[(*]

Oh. I forgot to mention, in regards to freedoms, homosexuality. Canada has recently changed its position of Gay marriages, but it is unlikely that the USA will follow suit.

[Hoppe]

Originally posted by Revolt&#33;@Apr 21 2004, 03:19 PM
American Foreign Policy since World War 2 has been criminal. Whilst hiding behind a mask of democracy they have continually undermined democracy the world over. They have bombed countries for economic reasons, supported coups to oust left wing governments and installed their own leaders, they have killed, maimed and destroyed.



Thanks to the president much praised by the left, Roosevelt, with his New Deal and his 4 Freedoms.

Oh Lucid, I think Bush failed 1st grade economics class. Don&#39;t praise him to much for his policies, they&#39;re hidious.

[NYC4Ever]

Well I agree that Bush isnt showing a great accomplishment in his policies either. But to cut the corruption in the economy you have to cut the government intervention and business. Karl Marx stated that he saw Communism rising out of advanced capatalist nations. Well I hardly think that Cuba,Russia and NK were all advanced capatalist countries. They were horribly corrupt and tried to appease the people with concessions and false hope. This is what&#39;s happening in America and the EU, mainly with the Democratic party. So yeah communism is inevitable because of the courruption that can capture even the most well meaning people. This is what all the Communist leaders first embodied but fell into their own hype and created a cult following. True libertarianism and compassionate conservatism is the only combat towards communism.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by (*@Apr 20 2004, 10:06 PM
For one, it is not as "free" as Canada

Are Americans free to travel to Cuba?
You are not free to use marijuana
And now we have things like the Patriot Act, which are taking aways some "freedoms"
These items do not make canada more free than the USA.

Canada taxes at over 50%. Any thime the government takes that more of your money for social welfare, they gain more control and freedom is compromised.

[Capitalist Imperial]

What is freedom to you anyway? You seem to think it is only getting rich and having the right to wack people when they trespass. In Denmark freedom is: free healthcare, free schools (public schools are not crap here), pensions and money if you get layed of because the sytem can&#39;t provide jobs.

That is not freedom. That is the opposite of freedom. It is socialization.

That is babysitting.

All of those things cost money, which the government takes from you en masse, increasing their control and compromising your freedom.

[lucid]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 21 2004, 06:25 PM

What is freedom to you anyway? You seem to think it is only getting rich and having the right to wack people when they trespass. In Denmark freedom is: free healthcare, free schools (public schools are not crap here), pensions and money if you get layed of because the sytem can&#39;t provide jobs.

That is not freedom. That is the opposite of freedom. It is socialization.

That is babysitting.

All of those things cost money, which the government takes from you en masse, increasing their control and compromising your freedom.
A zoo animal would be considered free under his ideas. They get free food, free healthcare, etc. Maybe we need to build a big zoo for commies to live in. They can charge cappies to come in and laugh at them and then disperse the money amonst themselves.

[Revolt!]

our country is far too individually diverse and numerous

Sounds like an empty phrase with no real meaning.

I think America does have freedoms, I don&#39;t think its the &#39;freest nation on earth&#39; as you say. That sounds like another empty phrase to me which never be proven because freedom is subjective. If you think philosophy is insignificant then your stupid, how childish of me.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 06:28 PM
A zoo animal would be considered free under his ideas. They get free food, free healthcare, etc. Maybe we need to build a big zoo for commies to live in. They can charge cappies to come in and laugh at them and then disperse the money amonst themselves.
That would be great. The zoo could even sell arsenic biscuits for us to feed to the pukes.

[cubist]

Originally posted by lucid+Apr 21 2004, 03:44 PM--> (lucid &#064; Apr 21 2004, 03:44 PM)
[email protected] 21 2004, 03:28 PM

lucid wrote
Read whatever you want to about our economy. I think it is recovering nicely from the dot com collapse and most of the people I know, myself included, are doing well. This vision of mile long soup lines isn&#39;t true. Even though you don&#39;t even live here I am sure you know best.


Well when even a bourgious programme like 60 min shows it it must have some relevance. Even most bourgious economics agree it will be a jobless recovery.


NYC4Ever wrote
Oh and redfront, I think it&#39;s scary that they take away your guns. Do you really trust a government like that?

Of course. People don&#39;t need to own assault rifles, guns etc. We have less killings in Denmark per person than the US. Actually most of the developed world does.
What is freedom to you anyway? You seem to think it is only getting rich and having the right to wack people when they trespass. In Denmark freedom is: free healthcare, free schools (public schools are not crap here), pensions and money if you get layed of because the sytem can&#39;t provide jobs.
I think you are getting a false impression of what is going on over here. People I know are getting along better than they where two years ago.

It seems like Denmark is a great place so you should stay there. Earlier you questioned why I came to this site? I&#39;ll ask you the same. Why do you come here and attack the US instead of enjoying the eutopian life you have in Denmark? You dont live here, you only know what you read, so fuck off. The US is a great place to live.[/b]
as ever lucid were just a bunch of paradise haters aren&#39;t we, we hate to see single mums work 70 hours to end up losing her house becuase she can&#39;t feed and clothe her child and keep the rent even after working 70 hours

the idea of minimum wage is that your paid above the bread line. FUCK AMERICA AND FUCK YOU, when you understand what you countries is doing and has done, tell me how much paradise it is. i bet that black guy beat up by the cops loves it. i bet all the 55000 unfairly removed florida voters love there democracy.

i bet everyone loves having there country stolen under there own eyes and the person who influenced the steal is now a congress woman.

fuck your free life i would rather live in poverty i woiuld rather never have kids than have them grow up with U&#036; imperialism looming

ye slucid the economy - &#036;7.000.000.000.000 courtesy of spending each citixzen of the US owns &#036;24,000 of the US treasury Deficit good economy.

i like the yank economy at the moment 1.9 dollars to the pound beats 2 years ago for me only thats bad for you right inflation of nearly 33%

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 06:46 PM
as ever lucid were just a bunch of paradise haters aren&#39;t we, we hate to see single mums work 70 hours to end up losing her house becuase she can&#39;t feed and clothe her child and keep the rent even after working 70 hours


Is that America&#39;s Fault or the woman&#39;s fault for having Kids she can&#39;t afford and not getting the skills necessary to command a higher salary?

As usual, the commies would rater blame the system than let individuals actaully take responsibility for themselves.

[NYC4Ever]

You&#39;re making it seem like its a high school where the popular kids are suppressing the unpopular ones and its time for them to revolt. Well I see it more as a college where people each pay their own way and each are individual and follow no one. This notion of a ruling class is a part of society. If thats what you&#39;re trying to break, then I hardly see the attempts focused in on the current commie nations. I know you guys keep saying that thats not real communism but nothing is real anything. You&#39;re just trying to perfect something that has always been imperfect. It only takes one person to mess up your whole utopian society.
And why is Noam Chomsky such a revered linguist to you guys. I hardly think he condones Communism at all. I would think he&#39;s more of a friend to the EU and the UN then anything else.

[Wenty]

You know this is a &#39;leftist community&#39;. Not everyone is communist, anarchist or whatever.

I think there are advantages to a Capitalist system as well as obvious disadvantages. I think the same for communism. I wish we could all just be a little bit more tolerant of other peoples views and debate maturally.

Also, whats wrong with being a friend to the EU and UN? Just needs reforming a bit in my opinion.

[NYC4Ever]

Wenty,
I would love to see real communism work. I really would, but I know it never will. People are just too corrupt. During every &#39;transistionary period&#39; to end the state in all of the communist nations today have failed. Many of which are turning into Democratic socialism. The EU right now is 50% Socialism, 50% Capitalism. I think that government intervention breeds corruption the most and yes a Communist revolution is inevitable. Most of the problems here in america were due to crooked politicians that promise the masses concessions and appeasement to remain uptop. This is an extreme case with the Democratic party as well as a little bit in the Republican. But most of the world hates Republicans, because I admit they privatize war, and Democrats are looked on as saints when they are clearly wolves in sheep clothing. Much like how I see every member in the EU and the UN. Most of the nations that became Communist began with government intervention and buisness, like the Batistas in Cuba.
Real communism would come out of advanced capatalism which I do not believe any of the nations that became communist were before. Libertarianism/Compassionate conservatism which is free markets and the private sector giving back to the community out of good will and through morals taught through the simple contexts of Judeo-christian(doesnt have to be) values and ethics. But even that is a theory and a dream as much as real communism is also.
Noam Chomsky is a friend of the EU and the UN because he knows thats the only weapon against America. Just like many leftists don&#39;t care about Allah, dont care to know if its the truth, they just know that its the best weapon against America and Israel, and Judeo Christianity.

[Hoppe]

That&#39;s the problem with democracy NYC4Ever. Just look at government as a market, each politician tries to sell himself by promising all kinds of nice things to people who vote for him.

BTW, why are you so fed up with the EU? Bush is hardly better.

[lucid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 06:46 PM
the idea of minimum wage is that your paid above the bread line. FUCK AMERICA AND FUCK YOU, when you understand what you countries is doing and has done, tell me how much paradise it is. i bet that black guy beat up by the cops loves it. i bet all the 55000 unfairly removed florida voters love there democracy.

You better stay on that dirty little rock you call home. Here you would just be another wellfare statistic. Lazy, unmotivated, hateful little commy.

And please don&#39;t bring your filthy little kids to the US. Thats just what we need. More british butlers with bad teeth.

[NYC4Ever]

Ofcourse Bush is hardly better. He&#39;s too liberal for me. He gives in like any politiican and appeases big government spending. But likewise he knows how courrupt the UN and the EU are so he wants no part. Yet, look at the key differences in Blair and Bush..both are complete opposites on the economic level and social scale, yet they both agree in war. Hmm, maybe the anti-war protestors are on to something. But even bidding contracts are not going to stop me from supporting a war that got out a brutal dictator and is trying to restore democracy no matter how much people deny it. I dont care what people say about Bush, he&#39;s still better than Saddam, and those bastards at the UN would rather prosecute Bush than Hussien(before), Kim of NK, Castro, China or any other brutes. I know Bush is proly no saint but he is last on the list before these fuckers the UN turns a hypocritical blind eye to. Leftists talk the talk but never walk the walk. Just like they would rather remove Bush from office, rather then the same tyrants they believe are not practicing real Communism. I just dont like double standards.
I hope our troops will come home safe and sound, but they have alot of work to do overseas. I also hope this is the last time America ever gets involved into other peoples buisness. I wish for the US to concern iteself amongst Americans and leave the world to their own global movement, since they dont want us anymore.

[Louis Pio]

Capitalist Imperial and Lucid I can see freedom to you is the freedom to be unemployment and being shit on. Well it happens that most of this world would rather get food and healthcare than live on the streets. You say it&#39;s a zoo. Well we still have multinationals. Maersk (the worlds largest shipcompany) is danish so you see you would still have the oppotunity to exploit others. Carlsberg is danish also etc.
The danish wellfare system was given as conssesions so people wouldn&#39;t revolt when the unions and workers parties went on the streets.
That you fail to realise why people actually want security shows how narrowminded you are. You 2 have indeed no knowlegde whatsoever about ordinary people&#39;s worries. Maybe that&#39;s why your posts are useless?

[lucid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 08:47 PM
Capitalist Imperial and Lucid I can see freedom to you is the freedom to be unemployment and being shit on. Well it happens that most of this world would rather get food and healthcare than live on the streets. You say it&#39;s a zoo. Well we still have multinationals. Maersk (the worlds largest shipcompany) is danish so you see you would still have the oppotunity to exploit others. Carlsberg is danish also etc.
The danish wellfare system was given as conssesions so people wouldn&#39;t revolt when the unions and workers parties went on the streets.
That you fail to realise why people actually want security shows how narrowminded you are. You 2 have indeed no knowlegde whatsoever about ordinary people&#39;s worries. Maybe that&#39;s why your posts are useless?
So the people that do not want government handouts are narrow minded while the puppets that need other to take care of them are wide eyed and aware.

BTW, I live in the US, have freedom, am not unemployed, and do not get shit on. If my job shit on me I would simply get another. Don&#39;t blame me that you have no marketable working skills.

/me knocks on Teis head "Hey stupid, anyone home?"

[NYC4Ever]

Thats why our founding fathers were Libertarian and followed the simple contexts of Judeo-Christian values, Leiss. Government intervention of any kind would screw things up, then concessions would have to be made and that all sky rockets with incoming corruption. Then Communism would surely take place. You would have to exterminate all sorts of capatalistic greed and myths about the human nature to do convince people of real communism. This is why I doubt Communism will ever work and always turns violent.

[Louis Pio]

So the people that do not want government handouts are narrow minded while the puppets that need other to take care of them are wide eyed and aware.


Well people pay for these things through taxes and are quite content.
So yes you are narrowminded. All americans I know who have been to Denmark prefer Denmark, that&#39;s quite funny. And remember those were not communists. Maybe you should try to see the world instead of bithcing on a discussionboard?


BTW, I live in the US, have freedom, am not unemployed, and do not get shit on. If my job shit on me I would simply get another. Don&#39;t blame me that you have no marketable working skills.


Well it is quite hard when there is no jobs ehh? So I don&#39;t have working skills? Well lemme see I have worked as a painter, blacksmith, cook and various other jobs. But as right now there is almost no jobs to get. And since im not rich or have rich parents I can&#39;t follow your mantra of starting my own company...

[lucid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 09:01 PM

So the people that do not want government handouts are narrow minded while the puppets that need other to take care of them are wide eyed and aware.


Well people pay for these things through taxes and are quite content.
So yes you are narrowminded. All americans I know who have been to Denmark prefer Denmark, that&#39;s quite funny. And remember those were not communists. Maybe you should try to see the world instead of bithcing on a discussionboard?


BTW, I live in the US, have freedom, am not unemployed, and do not get shit on. If my job shit on me I would simply get another. Don&#39;t blame me that you have no marketable working skills.


Well it is quite hard when there is no jobs ehh? So I don&#39;t have working skills? Well lemme see I have worked as a painter, blacksmith, cook and various other jobs. But as right now there is almost no jobs to get. And since im not rich or have rich parents I can&#39;t follow your mantra of starting my own company...
People that think it&#39;s ok to leach off of the earnings of others are not openminded, they are parrasites.

There are jobs available in the US for people with marketable skills. You need to troll for info somewhere other than www.communist-antiamerica.com. To say that there are no jobs here is not true. We are not in a recession.

All of your past jobs where nothing but bottom barrel laboring jobs. Maybe you should get an education and learn how to make money with your mind. My parents where not and are not rich. I have earned everything I have and refuse to give it to someone else. Your nothing but a tick, wanting to live off of the blood of your host, while at the same time causing at much discomfort as you can. If you end up homeless in a ditch you have noone to blame but yourself. You should really go thank a capitalist in your country. Thank them for having the intelligence and drive to be successful and paying enough taxes to feed your sorry ass.

[Hoppe]

NYC4ever, surely you must agree that the concept of "nationbuilding" or the notion that a society can be shaped according to a predifined set of rules is clearly on top of the social-democratic agenda.

The UN is not so hypocritical. France was not oppposed to the war in Iraq because of high moral values but only to protect its own interests in Iraq. The same way as Bush&#39; motives for the war are highly questionable. If he really wanted to spread freedom throughout the Middle-East I can think about two countries which are a more suitable candidate for an invasion.

Did you know by the way that Bush was the biggest sponsor of the Taliban, so his oilbuddies could build a pipeline in Afghanistan?

[NYC4Ever]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 09:01 PM

So the people that do not want government handouts are narrow minded while the puppets that need other to take care of them are wide eyed and aware.


Well people pay for these things through taxes and are quite content.
So yes you are narrowminded. All americans I know who have been to Denmark prefer Denmark, that&#39;s quite funny. And remember those were not communists. Maybe you should try to see the world instead of bithcing on a discussionboard?


BTW, I live in the US, have freedom, am not unemployed, and do not get shit on. If my job shit on me I would simply get another. Don&#39;t blame me that you have no marketable working skills.


Well it is quite hard when there is no jobs ehh? So I don&#39;t have working skills? Well lemme see I have worked as a painter, blacksmith, cook and various other jobs. But as right now there is almost no jobs to get. And since im not rich or have rich parents I can&#39;t follow your mantra of starting my own company...
Well you see Teis thats why Socialism wouldn&#39;t work in America. Most of those people you speak want to make their money here and ditch us for free handouts over there. Our system leaves an open free market which government intervention tries to close. Thats the main fight between Democrats, Republicans and now Libertarians. No one can compete with the government. And its not free Teis, you still get taxed to no end in most European countries.

[Louis Pio]

Lucid I have no intention of working in a parasite job as you propose. I want to create real wealth: build houses or other things people can use.

No people here are not parasites but they have just realised that if you work together and take care in each other you get a long way...

And for once I agree with Hoppe :D


Your nothing but a tick, wanting to live off of the blood of your host, while at the same time causing at much discomfort as you can. If you end up homeless in a ditch you have noone to blame but yourself. You should really go thank a capitalist in your country. Thank them for having the intelligence and drive to be successful and paying enough taxes to feed your sorry ass.

:rolleyes: Ehmm im curious. Can you spew out more hate? You seem like a very sad person that are only able to feel hate for other people

[Osman Ghazi]

Don&#39;t blame me that you have no marketable working skills.

Ha. Only an American would think of himself as a product.


All of your past jobs where nothing but bottom barrel laboring jobs. Maybe you should get an education and learn how to make money with your mind. My parents where not and are not rich. I have earned everything I have and refuse to give it to someone else. Your nothing but a tick, wanting to live off of the blood of your host, while at the same time causing at much discomfort as you can. If you end up homeless in a ditch you have noone to blame but yourself. You should really go thank a capitalist in your country. Thank them for having the intelligence and drive to be successful and paying enough taxes to feed your sorry ass.

Blah Blah Blah. Oh wait, I&#39;m not Lucid. Sorry.

Lucid your such a cappie puke. The people on top deserve their wealth? Please. Can anyone say Victorian ideals? Newsflash: They died with that *****.

Would you even stop and help someone if they were lying in ditch?

[Rasta Sapian]

this is subjective and relative:
we are the governmet with communism, citizens working equally without classes and exploitation&#33;

with american capitalism (extreme right), we are the government (individuals) with capitalism, citizens working unequally with exploitaion&#33;

all i know is that you are way to focused on America (centre of the universe?), what about the rest of the world? :blink:

There is alot of greed in America, and yet you claim to be world leaders? :huh:

I dream of one world Utopia: a classless, economically equal, and highly motivated union of people&#33; :)

p.s. free will, will always be free ;)

[NYC4Ever]

Thats the very sole reason why communism captivates everyone. Hey I admit I would join your efforts but I really dont think it can work considering all of the failed attempts. America is no prime example of libertarianism or compassionate conservatism, but it has a better track record than that of communist countries. This is the upside to capatalism but the downside is crime,drugs and poverty. Commie nations have it much worse, and they were intended to be these utopian societies. Instead they turned into the Stalinistic regimes they are now, because of man&#39;s inherit selfishness and control. This is why you cannot shake the thought of human nature out of people, no matter how much you can say its a myth. There proly is no human natrue but through history we assume its not pretty.
Both are the pinpoint ideologies in the history of the human race. Only one feeds of the want(greed) and the other supresses it.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 09:01 PM
All americans I know who have been to Denmark prefer Denmark, that&#39;s quite funny.
I find this very hard to believe.

I mean, people say that kind of thing all the time when they are on vacation, but they are just being faceteous or they are caught up in the fun of their their visit. I bet that you&#39;d be hard pressed to find someone who actually followed through on their shallow sentiment.

If they really strongly felt that way, they would move to Denmark. But they don&#39;t. The novelty wears off, and they, like most other people, always want to eventually come home. The place where the vast majority of people leave their homes to come en masse is, guess where? AMERICA&#33;&#33;&#33;

Besides, all those vacationing Americans know of denmark are the sights, bars, and redlight district, they haven&#39;t actually worked for 2 weeks in Denmark and seen over 1/2 of their pay taxed and experienced the barriers to property ownership there. Show me an American who wants to stay after that, and then you&#39;ll have a good point.

[Commie Girl]

Originally posted by Capitalist Imperial+Apr 21 2004, 12:19 PM--> (Capitalist Imperial @ Apr 21 2004, 12:19 PM)
(*@Apr 20 2004, 10:06 PM
For one, it is not as "free" as Canada

Are Americans free to travel to Cuba?
You are not free to use marijuana
And now we have things like the Patriot Act, which are taking aways some "freedoms"
These items do not make canada more free than the USA.

Canada taxes at over 50%. Any thime the government takes that more of your money for social welfare, they gain more control and freedom is compromised. [/b]
Umm.....I just sent in my Income tax and I paid 16%....where does this 50% business come from?

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by sexydj4u+Apr 21 2004, 11:04 PM--> (sexydj4u @ Apr 21 2004, 11:04 PM)
Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 21 2004, 12:19 PM

(*@Apr 20 2004, 10:06 PM
For one, it is not as "free" as Canada

Are Americans free to travel to Cuba?
You are not free to use marijuana
And now we have things like the Patriot Act, which are taking aways some "freedoms"
These items do not make canada more free than the USA.

Canada taxes at over 50%. Any thime the government takes that more of your money for social welfare, they gain more control and freedom is compromised.
Umm.....I just sent in my Income tax and I paid 16%....where does this 50% business come from? [/b]
is that %16 total or 16% on top of what you&#39;ve paid all year?

[Commie Girl]

No...I do accounting.....it was 16%...the highest tax rate is 29%



we have income tax like you guys do....April 30, you send in a form telling all the money you have made, what you paid in taxes, and what was really owed. My hubbie got a 3400&#036; refund this year. There are 4 tax brackets.....16%, 22%, 26% and 29%...the highest bracket is if you make over &#036;104,648

[Capitalist Imperial]

here is a site that alludes to a nearly 51% average in Canada. Not only that, but your highest marginal rate starts at a much lower income than in the US. IE, you tax your financially successful people at a much earlier stage than the US does:

http://www.quebecoislibre.org/980829-6.htm

[Commie Girl]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 21 2004, 05:14 PM
here is a site that alludes to a nearly 51% average in Canada. Not only that, but your highest marginal rate starts at a much lower income than in the US. IE, you tax your financially successful people at a much earlier stage than the US does:

http://www.quebecoislibre.org/980829-6.htm
Just as in the U&#036;, our Provinces can tax their citizens as they see fit.....can not say what they are taxed in Quebec....I live in Alberta.... :D ....just as I assume you do not know what the tax rates are in all of the 50 states....?


And I suppose that taxing our "financially successful" people earlier than in the U&#036;, this means it is "wrong"? We dont usually do things in accordance with U&#036; policy, thank God. Can&#39;t be too bad, we manage to attract alot of investment&#33; Those business assholes are only looking out for themselves, as we all know.

[Don't Change Your Name]

And if you guys are so into communism why dont you just move into a communist country.

Maybe the day when you move to a libertarian capitalist paradise.


Move to Iraq or any other one of your choice and become one of them. Something tells me you;ll be *****ing more about not having food, water, heat, and a more corrupted govt. then the US ever had.

Sure, because as we all know Iraq is enjoying a classless, statelessm society and has lots of work opportunities (picking up dead bodies). Ignorant.


Everytime you guys speak of freedoms, its something immoral and irrelevant. Like free to smoke weed, or free to talk about crap on tv.

Something can&#39;t be "immoral". And how do you define freedom?


Its obvious you guys know mor about communism, and it surpprised me that you guys do not support the current commie nations.

Of course. There&#39;s not such a thing as a "commie nation".


Hey I admit I would join your efforts but I really dont think it can work considering all of the failed attempts

Have you ever tried to understand the meaning of concepts such as "Marxism", "Leninism", "history", "class struggle", and how they are different from each other?


The United States is known for its economic freedoms, society and strong middle class.

The US is known for its imperialist policies, it&#39;s huge military spendings and it&#39;s propaganda.
And economic freedoms is contradictory. Unless you mean of course being free to "own a business", a privilege of not so many which wont exist the day the bigger corporations own everything.


A zoo animal would be considered free under his ideas. They get free food, free healthcare, etc. Maybe we need to build a big zoo for commies to live in. They can charge cappies to come in and laugh at them and then disperse the money amonst themselves.


That would be great. The zoo could even sell arsenic biscuits for us to feed to the pukes.

Wow, I can&#39;t believe you are up for such a serious and smart debate&#33; :rolleyes:
Grow up and stop complaining about the high taxes and all those socialist politicans that are out there trying to get you and your property. :lol:

[Louis Pio]

I mean, people say that kind of thing all the time when they are on vacation, but they are just being faceteous or they are caught up in the fun of their their visit. I bet that you&#39;d be hard pressed to find someone who actually followed through on their shallow sentiment.


Of course not all americans would. I just say that the ones I met would. When one of my comrades went to USA and talked about this, people told him they would like to live in a country were the rich actually gave back some of their profit. I think the main reason why you only have rightwing parties (of those who hold influence) is that you media don&#39;t tell much about how it is in the rest of the world. Many times I have been terrified about the lack of knowlegde the average american has. Of course this is not all americans. But it seems most people don&#39;t get much info on the rest of the world (of course besides the naivistic thoughts that people are against america because they don&#39;t like freedom).
One firend of mine went back to USA after september 11. and he was horrified about how gung ho everybody got. To me it sometimes seems as a massphycosis

[Louis Pio]

Besides, all those vacationing Americans know of denmark are the sights, bars, and redlight district, they haven&#39;t actually worked for 2 weeks in Denmark and seen over 1/2 of their pay taxed and experienced the barriers to property ownership there. Show me an American who wants to stay after that, and then you&#39;ll have a good point.


Hey, the only one complaining about the tax are the few rich people. People don&#39;t mind paying taxes when they know it helps building a civilized society. The americans I know who said this has lived here for minimum 1 year. I think that if most americans knew the american system wasn&#39;t the only way they would prefer another.

[lucid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 01:00 AM

I mean, people say that kind of thing all the time when they are on vacation, but they are just being faceteous or they are caught up in the fun of their their visit. I bet that you&#39;d be hard pressed to find someone who actually followed through on their shallow sentiment.


Of course not all americans would. I just say that the ones I met would. When one of my comrades went to USA and talked about this, people told him they would like to live in a country were the rich actually gave back some of their profit. I think the main reason why you only have rightwing parties (of those who hold influence) is that you media don&#39;t tell much about how it is in the rest of the world. Many times I have been terrified about the lack of knowlegde the average american has. Of course this is not all americans. But it seems most people don&#39;t get much info on the rest of the world (of course besides the naivistic thoughts that people are against america because they don&#39;t like freedom).
One firend of mine went back to USA after september 11. and he was horrified about how gung ho everybody got. To me it sometimes seems as a massphycosis
They do give back part of the profit Einstein. It&#39;s called the top 1% paying something like 30 percent of the taxes. They also create jobs so that sorry ass slobs like yourself don&#39;t starve.

[Louis Pio]

They do give back part of the profit Einstein. It&#39;s called the top 1% paying something like 30 percent of the taxes. They also create jobs so that sorry ass slobs like yourself don&#39;t starve.

But actually the point is (if you could read) that the current "upswing" is jobless. It&#39;s created by making the workers work more for less. You really should study economics instead of that parasite job you have...

[Osman Ghazi]

They also create jobs so that sorry ass slobs like yourself don&#39;t starve.

Oh, sorry. Your right, we should worship th rich as our gods, the All-Providers.
Or we could just kill them and take back what;s ours. Hey and then we wouldn&#39;t be doing nothing, we&#39;d be earning our wealth. That seems like a solution that would satisfy lucid and us.

[Professor Moneybags]

Originally posted by Osman [email protected] 22 2004, 01:25 AM

They also create jobs so that sorry ass slobs like yourself don&#39;t starve.

Oh, sorry. Your right, we should worship th rich as our gods, the All-Providers.
Or we could just kill them and take back what;s ours. Hey and then we wouldn&#39;t be doing nothing, we&#39;d be earning our wealth. That seems like a solution that would satisfy lucid and us.
I wonder what rationalisation was required to believe that something invented or created by someone else is actually "yours".

[Osman Ghazi]

The fact that we were just as involved in the creation but that because we didn&#39;t &#39;own&#39; it, we didn&#39;t recieve our fair share.

[lucid]

Originally posted by Osman [email protected] 22 2004, 01:12 PM
The fact that we were just as involved in the creation but that because we didn&#39;t &#39;own&#39; it, we didn&#39;t recieve our fair share.
Yeah&#33; Lets take Microsoft for example. The janitor that cleans the building is just as involved in the manufacturing of software as the programmers are.

Also look at the manufacturing of medicines. The monkey that screws the tops on containers for shipment is just as involved as the scientists that created the drug.

. gnikniht sdrawkcab ssa si sihT

[Louis Pio]

Let&#39;s take Wal-Mart as example.
We have alot of people running it, working odd hours and getting payed shit. The we have the board who get payed quite much and work quite less.

And so on...

[lucid]

Originally posted by Osman [email protected] 21 2004, 09:53 PM

Don&#39;t blame me that you have no marketable working skills.

Ha. Only an American would think of himself as a product.

Only a commie scumbag would think of himself as a part of a group instead of a single free person. Self responsibility isn&#39;t a big thing with you guys is it?

[lucid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 01:30 PM
Let&#39;s take Wal-Mart as example.
We have alot of people running it, working odd hours and getting payed shit. The we have the board who get payed quite much and work quite less.

And so on...
When you say board I am assuming you mean the group of people that worked hard to get the company started and continue to work hard expanding the company. If it wasn&#39;t for those people there would only be a store or two and your pathetic little arse would be working at McDonalds.

I love how you underachievers all think that running a company is easy and risk free. If so you need to remove head from ass and get some fresh air.

[El Che]

NYC4ever,


Liberty is always better than equality.

The two are in-dissociable.


The ultimate free will lies in liberty which the United States embodies.

Typical bourgeois nonsense. Capitalists believe Capitalism is the last, most advanced, stage of history.


I dislike the collectivist thought and mob rule that communism enforces.

You want freedom but you dislike "mob rule". Ruling class elitism runs deep eh?

[Louis Pio]

I love how you underachievers all think that running a company is easy and risk free. If so you need to remove head from ass and get some fresh air.

Same to you. It&#39;s funny how you claim to have money but still you seem to be quite unhappy...

Of course the workers can run a company. They are the ones who run it every day. Instead of someone who inherited it, or started it with daddys money as most big companies are. A good example from Denmark is that they have currently sacked thousands of workers while giving themselves a couple of more millions in salary.

[lucid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 01:49 PM

I love how you underachievers all think that running a company is easy and risk free. If so you need to remove head from ass and get some fresh air.

Same to you. It&#39;s funny how you claim to have money but still you seem to be quite unhappy...

Of course the workers can run a company. They are the ones who run it every day. Instead of someone who inherited it, or started it with daddys money as most big companies are. A good example from Denmark is that they have currently sacked thousands of workers while giving themselves a couple of more millions in salary.
I really appreciate your concern but you can quit your online psycho-analysis. I am by no means rich but I do ok.

Thats bullshit that most companies are started with daddies money. I would be willing to bet that the percentage of bussiness&#39; that started with daddies money is quite low. Your just ignorant if you think otherwise. I started my real estate investing company with &#036;10,000 that me and my wife saved.

[Louis Pio]

Well you seem quite unhappy chum. Or else you wouldn&#39;t be so hysterical...


Thats bullshit that most companies are started with daddies money. I would be willing to bet that the percentage of bussiness&#39; that started with daddies money is quite low. Your just ignorant if you think otherwise. I started my real estate investing company with &#036;10,000 that me and my wife saved.

Well good for you.
Most companies is started with loans from the banks. And you need security to get those loans. Leaving out a big percentage of the population.
I know people like you love the myth about the struggling guy who starts from scratch and build up his companies.
In the real world the multinationals who control most of the economy isn&#39;t started in that way.

[lucid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 02:00 PM
Well you seem quite unhappy chum. Or else you wouldn&#39;t be so hysterical...


Thats bullshit that most companies are started with daddies money. I would be willing to bet that the percentage of bussiness&#39; that started with daddies money is quite low. Your just ignorant if you think otherwise. I started my real estate investing company with &#036;10,000 that me and my wife saved.

Well good for you.
Most companies is started with loans from the banks. And you need security to get those loans. Leaving out a big percentage of the population.
I know people like you love the myth about the struggling guy who starts from scratch and build up his companies.
In the real world the multinationals who control most of the economy isn&#39;t started in that way.
By hysterical do you mean funny? Are all funny people unhappy. I actually do quite a bit of laughing reading this site.

There are plenty of oppertunities for people to start business&#39; in the US. It just takes determination and work. You wouldn&#39;t understand this because you have obviously already thrown in the towel.

[Louis Pio]

There are plenty of oppertunities for people to start business&#39; in the US. It just takes determination and work. You wouldn&#39;t understand this because you have obviously already thrown in the towel.



Nah am actually planning to start my own company with a friend at some point. A strictly 2 man operation since that&#39;s fun. When it get.s bigger it ain&#39;t and you have to act like a asshole. But except for what I need for myself the rest will be given to the political fight. It&#39;s easy to start a company every retard can do it which is why we see so many people going bankrupt when the crises hit.


By hysterical do you mean funny? Are all funny people unhappy. I actually do quite a bit of laughing reading this site.



You don&#39;t seem to be laughing. And how should you be considered funny? All you do is talk shit about people.

[Professor Moneybags]

The two are in-dissociable.

The two are mutually exclusive, in an economic context


Typical bourgeois nonsense. Capitalists believe Capitalism is the last, most advanced, stage of history.

I don&#39;t think capitalists believe in that Marxist "stages of history" nonsense.



You want freedom but you dislike "mob rule". Ruling class elitism runs deep eh?

Nothing to do with elitism or any "class". In a real capitalist society, no one in particular "rules". Capitalism is just the freedom to trade and adhere to the non-initiation of force principle. Rule is by law, not by men.

[El Che]

The two are mutually exclusive, in an economic context


Typical bourgeois conception of freedom. There can not be true freedom while there persists class rule. Freedom should be, above all, freedom for the free and full development of all. You talk about your petty "economic freedom" but you ignore its consequences.


I don&#39;t think capitalists believe in that Marxist "stages of history" nonsense.


Capitalists believe in profit.


Nothing to do with elitism or any "class".

Not only does the ruling class rule, it convinces its subjects that left to themselves they will bring about hell on earth. Beware of mob rule&#33; Don&#39;t let power fall on the street&#33;

Typical elitist nonsense.


In a real capitalist society, no one in particular "rules".

In real capitalist society the elites rule. Ultimately and above all the economic elites.


Capitalism is just the freedom to trade and adhere to the non-initiation of force principle.

Its much more than that.



Rule is by law, not by men.

Men make laws.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by Osman [email protected] 22 2004, 01:25 AM
[Or we could just kill them and take back what;s ours.
How is it "yours"? Last time I checked, no business just spouts up out of the ground as a viable, successful company. McDonalds, Wal-Mart, and Starbucks all started with one store and a vision. Through years of smart decsion making, risk taking, and hard work, they grew to become successful companies. With this and virtually every other successful company, one or a few individuals took the risk and put in the work to build these business into what the are today.

So, Osman, I ask, how exactly it this "yours" to take back?

This is a perfect example of commie thinking: "Lets just sit on our laurels and complain about the system, let orthers take the risks and put in the work, and then we&#39;ll complain that "it ours and we need a revolution to take it back".

Highly flawed, ignorant, and pretentious thinking, and laughable at best.

[El Che]

Capitalist Imperial wrote:


McDonalds, Wal-Mart, and Starbucks all started with one store and a vision. Through years of smart decsion making, risk taking, and hard work, they grew to become successful companies.

Now, this is what I read:

McDonalds, Wal-Mart, and Starbucks all started with one store and a vision. Through years of [i]profiting from the sweat of others, blood sucking and robbing workers blind they grew to become successful companies.

[Commie Girl]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 22 2004, 08:54 AM
McDonalds, Wal-Mart, and Starbucks all started with one store and a vision. Through years of smart decsion making, risk taking, and hard work, they grew to become successful companies. With this and virtually every other successful company, one or a few individuals took the risk and put in the work to build these business into what the are today.


:blink: I don&#39;t think that paying workers minimum wage, far below what people can reasonably exist on, is a "smart business" decision or what makes a company "successful" .... At least the big car makers believed that their workers deserved to be paid a wage that enabled them to purchase the very things they were producing.

Power to the people&#33; :ph34r:

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by El [email protected] 22 2004, 03:51 PM
Capitalist Imperial[ist] wrote:


McDonalds, Wal-Mart, and Starbucks all started with one store and a vision. Through years of smart decsion making, risk taking, and hard work, they grew to become successful companies.

Now, this is what I read:

McDonalds, Wal-Mart, and Starbucks all started with one store and a vision. Through years of profiting from the sweat of others, blood sucking and robbing workers blind they grew to become successful companies.
Yeah, they forced people to work there with guns to their head, and robbed them blind, thats it.

It&#39;s not like they had people filling out applications and actually asking for jobs. No,

It is truly incredible how blatantly but illogically you try and spin the realities of the American labor market into some sort of slave system.

I want to know, El-Che, exactly how Starbucks, Mcdonalds, and Wal-Mart workers are robbed blind. Give me the numbers.

And how is uinvesting ytyour own money, time, and risk in a nnew business "profiting from the sweat of others"? Starting your own business is very, very hard work. And it is the principal that takes the risks and puts in the most work, thus the principal recieves the reward, straight up.

Thats America, baby, and it is beautiful.

[El Che]

CI


Yeah, they forced people to work there with guns to their head, and robbed them blind, thats it.

I never said they were forced. At least not in the way you mean it. Wokers are "forced" to be "wage slaves" by the capitalist mode of production not but McDonalds or Wal-Mart themselves.


It is truly incredible how blatantly but illogically you try and spin the realities of the American labor market into some sort of slave system.


My criticism isn&#39;t exclusive to the "American labor market".


I want to know, El-Che, exactly how Starbucks, Mcdonalds, and Wal-Mart workers are robbed blind. Give me the numbers.

If they didn&#39;t profit from the workers they wouldn&#39;t employ them. Surely you know this. How do you think companies generate wealth? Do you think it materializes itself out of the sky? Of course you don&#39;t. Workers produce it, Capitalists keep it (most of it anyway).

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 04:03 PM

:blink: I don&#39;t think that paying workers minimum wage, far below what people can reasonably exist on, is a "smart business" decision or what makes a company "successful" .... At least the big car makers believed that their workers deserved to be paid a wage that enabled them to purchase the very things they were producing.

Power to the people&#33; :ph34r: [/quote]
Well, it is very simple then. If you don&#39;t like the wage, get a differennt job. Get some more skills if you have too. Maybe if you didn&#39;t sit at home at your parents house smoking spliffs and reading Chomsky all day while listening to RATM, you would be more marketable.

Oh, I&#39;m sorry, the concept of freedom and choice is lost on most leftists.

Yes, believe it or not, America sustains a voluntary labor market. So, as much as you claim that "big bad corporations" exploit workers, in every single american business, and even in government jobs, the worker is just as responsible for his employment as the employer, and he can leave for greener pasyures at any time.

Of couse, just like freedom and choice, individual responisbility is also a concept lost on most leftists

[cubist]

This as per usual is a thread going nowhere,

capitalist imperial canada and america are different coutries with diffrent governments they grant different benifits and thus have different tax bands, it doesn&#39;t matter tax and benifits don&#39;t make you free,

being given information from unbiased sources that allows you to asses how you country is really working would be a freedom that america certainly doesn&#39;t grant.

taking the majority and representing it fully would be a freedom that america doesn&#39;t grant,


Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. [quote]

anyone need to see the pics and videos of peacful protesters getting beaten by cops,
i am sure veryone can post some pictures to remind the anyone who doesn&#39;t remember,


[quote]Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

they made it illegal for black people to own guns

Amendment III

No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.



Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


sherman austin,


Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

charles manson has still not had real charges brought against him they still haven&#39;t got the evidence to support his indigment, at his parole hearing he asks if they have any evidence to prosecute yet

sherman austin,




Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

no cruel or unusual punishments, how about death, and then to top it sitting on death row for 15 years,


there a fewq things america really provides in its free world

[NYC4Ever]

Ok, look no nation is really free in all sense of the word. America is still free by many definitions and many not as well. I believe Cap. Imp. that the choice and freedom to choose is all lost to many leftists and commies. Sometimes it can be a product of your enviroment but most of the times its not. I know kids who have their whole life for them mapped out and handed to them on a silver spoon and they fuck it up with drugs and crime. On the other hand I know kids who come from nothing in ghettos and go to school and rise. Why is the idea of opportunities so lost to you people? Thats the enigma I will never unravel with some of you who I&#39;m chatting with that live in a two story home and are using a nice ass computer, and their sources are nicely polished leftists books they got from Barnes and Nobles. You ingrates.
Instead there are those that strive for the top and help thier communities in any which way they can by contributing to their society, willingly. Key word: willingly. Not by forced Socialism, like may of your failed experiments on nations proved. Now you listen to RATM and Manu Chao who bask in their money while contributing back to leftist and social causes. So they&#39;re using the system to beat the system? Why not use the system to better society and contribute to organizations and charity? How ironic, I wanna see if they&#39;ll give all of their royalties to the people once the revolution starts. :lol: Chao&#39;s liberal guilt makes people really believe that they cant strive to be anything in life and thats wrong.

[cubist]

another funny example of american hypocracy

the declaration of independance
you wanted idependence from george iii ffor many reasons here are a few spot the hypocracy



"For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:"

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

sounds familiar

[NYC4Ever]

You guys talk the talk but cannot walk the walk. Look at your own failed attempts at communism. You guys wash your hands clean of it and scream, thats not real communism, I dont want part of that. Well, shit man do you think that I support every single little thing that America does? No. But America isn&#39;t killing me or a record number of its own citizens for the sake of establishing an ideology. And dont give me that crap that our ideology killed people overseas, because Communism or Stalinism, whatever, joined to the fight as well. You yourselves say capitalism is not a philosophical ideology its all economics, well then your attempted philosophy has done more harm than good. You should&#39;ve used rats before you attempted it on humans.

[Professor Moneybags]

Typical bourgeois conception of freedom. There can not be true freedom while there persists class rule. Freedom should be, above all, freedom for the free and full development of all. You talk about your petty "economic freedom" but you ignore its consequences.

I&#39;m talking about real freedom, not your "freedom to do whatever you want at everyone else&#39;s expense" version.


I never said they were forced. At least not in the way you mean it. Wokers are "forced" to be "wage slaves" by the capitalist mode of production not but McDonalds or Wal-Mart themselves.

Then they&#39;re "forced" by the law of causality. Sorry, no revolution is going to get rid of that.

--------------------------------------


they made it illegal for black people to own guns

Wasn&#39;t that declared unconstitutional and fought over ?

[NYC4Ever]

They dont get it. They bombard you with dillusional philosophies about, what is truth, what is freedom? What is blah,blah? How do you define this or that? Their whole point is to break your faith, morality and truth to manipulate you. Karl Marx was an evil genius.

[spirit_of_1916]

1st of all communism doesn&#39;t enforce mob rule. a lot of things that exist in the capitalist society would have no place in a soicalist society. We can learn from the expeience of the U.S that their wealth has come about by taking advantage of others. This can be seen all around the world, whether it be in a military show of strenght or most often a U.S backed insergeance. The U.S has many friendly countries,puppet states as some would call them, that have a government at their head, that is both crual and against the interests of their people. Because of their greed, a reflection of the capitalist, they take money, some would call bribes, from the U.S and allow U.S companies come into their land and mine that countries natural resourses. The U.S could not exist without globalisation, their system cannot function without the explotation of others. look at Africa, in fact look at any country in the world and you&#39;ll probably see an example of this. Although you may be against it, I strongly recommend you read Marx&#39;s communist manifesto, it will give you a better understanding of communisim and what its all about.

[toastedmonkey]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 01:07 AM
no, what the hell is a college campus? some yankee teen college orgy?

We dont have college campus bullshit wank stain words in the UK.
Yes we do, nob head, college campuses and university campuses&#33;

grow up&#33;

Edit: i fogot to use the word ignorant

[NYC4Ever]

Spirit of 1916, I get what Communism is all about and I know what Stalinism is all about. No communist nation is practicing real communism, and in fact theres not supposed to be a communist nation at all. The same can be said about capitalism, though capitalism is based on explotation, I&#39;ll give ya that. I think that Karx Marx was an evil genius because he worked both sides of the field for control. In the end both communism and capitalism are based on the material.

[cubist]

NYC4ever, i see, i know what you saying about beating the system, bnut that doesn&#39;t help the third world countries, aht doesn&#39;t stop america killing civillians to install a democracy after tamerica had allready installed the dictator, i don&#39;t by americas bullshit you can if you want but THEY ARE SPILLING INNOCENTS BLOOD AND YOU ARE LETTING THEM.

[palestine_forever]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 09:40 PM
the United States is the freest nation on the Earth. The more and more you show me Anti-War protestors in America the more and more I see that America is still free.
The government does stuff that people dont want resulting in mass rallys, and that goes through your brain as freedom? Where is the logic in such a democracy? Elected dictatorships such as Blair or Bush are successful because the public is, literally, too stupid.

[NYC4Ever]

Ok I agree Bush isn&#39;t helping the siutation and is leading up to nothing more than another Saddam. But look at the insurgents coming in as well. Iraq wants a democracy but are skeptical of America, and I dont blame them. But those insurgents are keeping both Iraqis and Americans from accomplishing a demorcacy at all. I dont even know where they are coming from. Possibly Syria or Iran, or following Al-Sadr. Thats another subject and I wish America would stay out of other countries all together. but c&#39;mon the Taliban and Saddam were no better.

[Sabocat]

but c&#39;mon the Taliban and Saddam were no better.

And yet, the U.&#036;. supported, supplied and trained them. :rolleyes:

[NYC4Ever]

Palestine forever,
Tell me what would you do in these situations. Would you really trust the UN that let too many Rwandans die, or use it because its your best weapon against the US and Israel? It&#39;s all politics. France didn&#39;t give a damn about the Iraqis it was just being bribed by Saddam, and all of this praise goes to France, the most classist snobby society on this Earth. England&#39;s Tony Blair is a complete social and political opposite to Bush and he joined him. Spain pulled out and now has a Socialist Prime Mini, that wont help defeat the insurgents that are causing mayhem in Iraq. I mean who&#39;s side are you on anyways, because either way your on a pretty corrupt side? Are you on the terrorist side or the lesser of two evils? Because let me tell you that I bet if your a true commie that you do not care about Allah, care to know its the truth or even bother to understand it, you just know its the best weapon against USA and Israel.

[NYC4Ever]

Thats all you guys go on is how we helped the Taliban beat the Soviets during the Cold War. Ever government in the world did some pretty heavy shit to beat the Soviets and vice versa, and I admit that the US was headlining the show. Osama gets refuge from the Taliban and he blows up two of our buildings and kills several people and you expect us not to correct things we&#39;ve done during the cold war. All if this is an after math of the cold war. The way leftist and you guys are still in this mode leads me to believe that the cold war is far from over and you people just need to openly admit that you hope the terrorists will win and America will be brought down. I know thats what I was thinking when I jumped on the whole antiwar bandwagon. What began as a way to show my disent towards war and killing people, I ended up seeing how much you guys really hate America and wish it to burn to the ground and the people who defend it. If kerry gets elected do you really think that it will all change?

[Akasha]

Blair is not the opposite of Bush, he is his lapdog. He will do whatever the U&#036; wants him to.

These are not "insurgents" in Iraq killing innocent peace loving americans...they are Iraqis defending their country. I do not know one person from Iraq who supports the U&#036; being there. Look at Bush&#39;s reasons for going into Iraq. Those same reasons can be applied to an invasion on the U&#036;. Every bad thing that Saddam or Bin Laden have done...U&#036; presidents have done. So why should these "terrorists" not attack the U&#036;. The U&#036; attacks them. I think the leaders in the U&#036; need to take a step back and ask themselves why so many nations and peoples of the world want to see them suffer.

And there wouldn&#39;t have been a Cold War if it weren&#39;t for the U&#036;.

[cubist]

as we all know nyc4ever, history can not be learned from as the situation will never arise the same, but the reason people go on about it is becuase america installed Sadam to defaet the kurdish communists and russia, then the fail to evict sadam in the gulf war for reasons unkown to us all, but then they continue with a trade embargo which directly kills the civillians it didn&#39;t effect sadam at all, and then they walk on in to iraq trying to install democracy (at last about time, we all would rather see democracy represent some of the poeple over a dictator) and kills yet more civillians who we are trying to protect, America is merely trying to correct a large mistake but the truth is that mistake should never have happend, but people don&#39;t care about that bit.


a free iraq but at what cost, and worse of all becuase those damn stalinist commies weren&#39;t allowed to get there hands on an exceedingly valuable thing OIL

[NYC4Ever]

I dont get it, you dislike the failed attepts of communism that resort into Stalinism and turn around and blame the US for trying to stop them from spreading. Now do you support Stalinism or the US attempts keeping it from spreading? or neither?
Iraqis are joing the military and the police force. They need to learn to take their country back from Saddam loyalists and insurgents. Islamic propagandists are wanting a theocracy while many people want democracy. Now why would we want it to look like Iran? I mean what are they afraid of? Of their country looking like Texas from the heap that Saddam made it? What would you say is best for the Iraqis at this point? Even ones that want Americans there to restore peace and bring Democracy. I mean they want us out but we cant leave because of the insurgents. Now lets say we do leave, what happens to Iraq? We busted it, we fix and thats what we&#39;re trying to do and it doesnt help that these "freedom fighters" are killing our soldiers, their own people and kidnapping anyone they see fit.

And Blair is the opposite of Bush. Blair is part of the Labour Party. Blair is like the Clinton of England. I mean domestic policy wise.

[Akasha]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2004, 12:15 PM

And Blair is the opposite of Bush. Blair is part of the Labour Party. Blair is like the Clinton of England. I mean domestic policy wise.
Blair should have posted on the topic "how to give a good blow-job" he&#39;s certainly given his share to Bu&#036;h.

[cubist]

i refute the us attempts to keep it from spreading as much as refute the thought of stalinism and communism being the same, i don&#39;t believe communism will lead to stalinism i believe stalin led to stalinism, you cannot allow power to so few people and you certainly cannot pass laws which allow stalin or leaders to trick and trap each other.

wether you believe communism is good a bad do you think capitalism is doing its best to provide welfare for those less fortunate?

[NYC4Ever]

I am a libertarian. Thats as much a dream in a Neo Con Capatalist world as real Communism in a Stalinistic, Maoist and others in failed attempts to meet your dreams. Plus, I have been to four latin american countries and as I see it, Europe is the leach off of them more so than America. Im an isolationist and wish to end government intervention and buisness, and teach everyone that you have to contribute back to society or collapse is inevitible. We&#39;er not meant for nation building, and I do not agree with Prez Bush. I voted for him cus I fell for his compassionate conservatism stance. He&#39;s not practising what hes preaching and he&#39;s worse at government spending than any liberal democrat. Plus, its Democrats than enforce welfare and want universal healthare. While they provide very shitty projects that are taken out of the workers pay, they dont mind the little taken out of their huge paychecks even though they still treat their kids to the very best of private hospitals, private schools and such. Now would I really want to work long hours to wait in line for a loaf of bread and to come back to my shitty government housting project, just to be free? You say that thats an advanced society, but I say thats a brainwashed one that gives up all care of sanity, morals, truth, and beliefs for the crappy little material possessions they have to live with. Instead in the society we&#39;re breeding in america, we&#39;re accumilating more and more materials to feed our longing for them. Thats brainwashing too, but here&#39;s the difference, we&#39;re not forced to live that way. We&#39;re pressured by society but no one is holding a gun to your head to. I dont care what anyone says, no people in their right mind unless they were the holiest of holies would give the state back to the people, because there will always be free will.
Have you ever seen the movie Equilibrium? Its an ok movie but thats what I picture a Communist state to look like, and with all of the intervention of peoples free will letting out it keeps the people in charge in power and they will never hand it over. And every time we bring that up you guys say no thats not what a communist society looks like, thats not what it looks like. Just like all of my leftist friends that said this to me while we were watching the movie, instead they said thats what a capitalist society controlled by corporations will look like. I said yes thats what it becomes in the end, so whats the differene?

[NYC4Ever]

Ok, look no matter how I slice it. Communism is the best answer but we would have to destroy everything and totally isolate ourselves from anything that isn&#39;t in best interests to the society. The biggest thing that spooked the commies in USSR and China was religion. Religion was the biggest enemy to Marx and caused an upproductive worker, thus in the deaths of thousands. Would you allow religion at all in a communist society? Or would you seriously brainwash everyone to be a robot. People are so dissatisfied with their lives either way.
I work for my local community college and I receive a government check every two weeks. It was heaven to go to work, come back ,read and have fun. It wasn&#39;t even real work to me so it felt like I was getting a free check. I though Socialism would be a dream. But as you know I live in an ambitious society that strives to get ahead, so i fall into the same loop of getting somewhere in life. I would really really have to be content with I have now, and I would really really have to be content living in a communist society. Now it seems as though I would never be content even if I was in a communist society. I would have to born and raised in one, and never be allowed to think about anything else other than the society. But theres something in us that sparks wonder, transendence and strive. The very same strive and dream that you guys exhibit aching for you communist society. People want more. That will prevent it from ever coming into play.

[cubist]

i see its not allowing it you can&#39;t restrain the mind i would never endevour to restricted the freedom of thought, however, religion is a gateway to oppression, it has been utilised to oppress and would be used by some to gain elevation and &#39;peerdom&#39; i thikn i just made that up but hey it sounds good something which communism can&#39;t allow

[NYC4Ever]

Um Cubist, I hope your&#39;re there. I&#39;m glad that you guys have given me the chance to speak my mind, even though most of you guys disagree. And Shredder, why do you hate me? lol.
Religion and spiritual beliefs are much more dangerous in a neo capitalist society because it causes you to also be content and not achieve anything for their productions, while in a communist society it would make you discontent. Free thining about communism is not allowed here, as much as free thinking about capitalism was never there during Lenin or Stalins time. Big Difference is that your&#39;re allowed to read it here. But that want that strive is in us all. Some of us in a cappie society fill it with materials and others want more like in a communist one. Buddhists and Christians were the biggest threat to China. Honestly would you seriously let religion exist in a communist society? How come leftists are so tolerant to every religion except Christianity and even Judaism? IS it because of America and Israel? I dont count Catholosism or any organized religion sprung out of Christianity to be correct, either, buts it their free will to do so and I dont impose my faith on anyone.
Yes, this does play in effect on me and my attitude towards Communism and capitalism too. But thats just me and I would be an enemy to both contemporary China and America. Well mostly Canada. Believe me , leftists hold more power than you really think. Keep doing what your&#39;re doing because you will win. I can see it happening already. People are wanting whats going on in the EU and Canada.

[NYC4Ever]

Well ofcourse your right about religion. Look at all of the mess with the Catholic church and most protestant churches. Religion is a crutch. But I follow the Bible like it needs to be followed, not by what religious clerks say. Sorta like Johnny Cash. :D I just acknowledge the events that happened in the Bible as truth and accept Jesus&#39;s teachings and go about my way. I go to church because it helps but its not an intricate <(is that how you spell it) part in my life. I could have a service in my own backyard if wanted to. If it was up to me instatutionalized religion would be abolished and organized religion would be so too. But its not for me to make that choice for them, they have to make it. I know that sounds very funny to you guys, but would it be as funny as if I tolf you I was Muslim?
I like America because when it first began it had similar principles. Somewhere along the line it got screwed up with the crazy South, slavery, indian slayings, racism and the Cold War. I would erase all of these mistakes but I cant becaue it was the choice of many. Howard Zinn and others like Noam Chomsky are doing a service by ousting these stories but what good does it do to keep pupming these facts into peoples heads? They want people to hate America from every level. I know we need to learn from our mistakes, but we will never really progress. Then they turn and worship Europe, "the ever tolerant continent", and I could find serious facts about their nations and make em look just as bad as ours. Just like when leftists tell blacks and hispanics that they will never make it, they will never succeed because of whitey. I am hispanic and really believed that for a long time and thought it was hopeless. Mankind is hopeless in my eyes. The progressives dont want to progress as much as most conersvatives and especially Democrats dont really want to help.

[Loknar]

What about helping your self? If some guy is a druggie and doesnt get help why s hould society pay for his gas and electric ect? what if a perfectly healthy man is to lazy to work? should society support him? self reliance is something i advocate.

[God of Imperia]

the problem is, it isn&#39;t always that easy to decide in these things, it&#39;s not that this guy would say that he is lazy or something, he would just not get a job, you should stimulate him to get a job, help him, and things like that. To bad there are to many people without a job so it gets hard to actually do these things person by person ... And for addicts, if someone needs help, you should help him no? but if he abuses this help you should think twice about helping him the next time.

[Commie Girl]

Hello NYC4ever....trying to follow the posts, I am Canadian and wonder what you are refering to when you say...


Yes, this does play in effect on me and my attitude towards Communism and capitalism too. But thats just me and I would be an enemy to both contemporary China and America. Well mostly Canada.

and:
People are wanting whats going on in the EU and Canada.

[NYC4Ever]

Sexydj4u,
Well I am over exagerating a bit but I heard Canada is gettting pretty leftist and socialist and has a growing disent towards Christianity.
Now what about the univesral health care up there? Is it really as clean as they make it out to be? I heard that theres long lines and red tape. But people are wanting that system here in the US.I heard its devastating in London, but then again this could all be right wing propaganda.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2004, 03:56 PM

but c&#39;mon the Taliban and Saddam were no better.

And yet, the U.&#036;. supported, supplied and trained them. :rolleyes:
I never understood this argument. Relationships from 20 years ago can easily change. If history has taught us anything, it is that the world political climate is tumultuous, organic, and subject to change.

Thus, this argument is irrelevant.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2004, 09:55 PM
Sexydj4u,
Well I am over exagerating a bit but I heard Canada is gettting pretty leftist and socialist and has a growing disent towards Christianity.
Now what about the univesral health care up there? Is it really as clean as they make it out to be? I heard that theres long lines and red tape. But people are wanting that system here in the US.I heard its devastating in London, but then again this could all be right wing propaganda.
I&#39;ll take the quality of American health care over socialized systems any day.

[IPkurd]

Health care in London is fucked up, the doctors nurse get incredibly low wages for working very long hours. some white people here blame it on refugee&#39;s coming into this country and apparently clogging up the system, its all the government fault, never making living in London any bit more easier for the workers

[Commie Girl]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2004, 03:55 PM
Sexydj4u,
Well I am over exagerating a bit but I heard Canada is gettting pretty leftist and socialist and has a growing disent towards Christianity.
Now what about the univesral health care up there? Is it really as clean as they make it out to be? I heard that theres long lines and red tape. But people are wanting that system here in the US.I heard its devastating in London, but then again this could all be right wing propaganda.
:) Canada has had socialsit policies, more so since Trudeau was Prime Minister....I believe he was the greatest Prime Minister of all time. Even was liked by Castro, and they did enjoy each other apparently&#33; Not sure where there is a growing dissent among Christianity, we just truly believe in the separation of church and state&#33;

We have an excellent health care system....I could show up at ANY emergency room and be treated immediately....of course, it is based on not first come first serve, but in order of severity of problem....never have I had to wait for anything&#33; ie: a few years ago I had an ectopic pregnancy...showed up at emergency and was in surgery within an hour ( I had to find child care for my kids)....I believe you are told these things as a scare tactic. I can sure have a clearer conscience knowing that ANYONE can have medical care...anywhere, anytime.

If you need an appointment with your doctor, it may take a few days to get in but if you say its urgent, you can be fit in somehow.

We have etremely high quality healthcare, much lower infant mortality rate than the U&#036;, longer life span than the U&#036;, and our "socialist" health care system costs much less and covers EVERYONE than the U&#036; system&#33;

[Commie Girl]

Originally posted by Capitalist Imperial+Apr 23 2004, 04:33 PM--> (Capitalist Imperial @ Apr 23 2004, 04:33 PM)
[email protected] 23 2004, 09:55 PM
Sexydj4u,
Well I am over exagerating a bit but I heard Canada is gettting pretty leftist and socialist and has a growing disent towards Christianity.
Now what about the univesral health care up there? Is it really as clean as they make it out to be? I heard that theres long lines and red tape. But people are wanting that system here in the US.I heard its devastating in London, but then again this could all be right wing propaganda.
I&#39;ll take the quality of American health care over socialized systems any day. [/b]
Socialized Medicine=Quality Medicine :D

[Capitalist Imperial]

Canada has 1 MRI machine in the whole nation. California alone has about 8.

[Commie Girl]

Where do you get your info? I live in a city of 70,000 people and WE HAVE ONE&#33;


BTW, what is the population of California? about 30 million....population of CANADA???? about 32 million

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2004, 10:58 PM
Where do you get your info? I live in a city of 70,000 people and WE HAVE ONE&#33;


BTW, what is the population of California?
I may have been thinking of a CAT scan machine.

I&#39;m not sure about the population of California.

What I do know is that lately many canadians sit up north and become irreverent towards the USA, judging us and criticizing, not relaizing that if it was not for the USA canada would just be another 3rd world nation (or actually already taken over by the Soviets). Canada leeches off of the US economy. Basically, you are only as economically viable as you are due to the American economy, not to mention that we are your protection. The soviets would have invaded and taken your resources years ago if not for the U.S.A.

Here is a novel thought: Why don&#39;t you stop whining and show a little appreciation. Without the US, Canada is nothing. Any modern economist or military strategist will tell you this.

[Commie Girl]

Originally posted by Capitalist Imperial+Apr 23 2004, 05:08 PM--> (Capitalist Imperial &#064; Apr 23 2004, 05:08 PM)
[email protected] 23 2004, 10:58 PM
Where do you get your info? I live in a city of 70,000 people and WE HAVE ONE&#33;


BTW, what is the population of California?
I may have been thinking of a CAT scan machine.

I&#39;m not sure about the population of California.

What I do know is that lately many canadians sit up north and become irreverent towards the USA, judging us and criticizing, not relaizing that if it was not for the USA canada would just be another 3rd world nation (or actually already taken over by the Soviets). Canada leeches off of the US economy. Basically, you are only as economically viable as you are due to the American economy, not to mention that we are your protection. The soviets would have invaded and taken your resources years ago if not for the U.S.A.

Here is a novel thought: Why don&#39;t you stop whining and show a little appreciation. Without the US, Canada is nothing. Any modern economist or military strategist will tell you this. [/b]
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D Who is whining? We ALL know that Canada owes NOTHING to the U&#036;, we kicked your Butts in the War of 1812, burned down your white house and we are whining? :D :D :D


We are peacekeepers, not warmongers&#33; What do we need protection for? The world hates the U&#036;, not Canada&#33; Check out the edited post above for stats on population. And yes, we have had CAT machines for years....

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2004, 11:11 PM

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D Who is whining? We ALL know that Canada owes NOTHING to the U&#036;, we kicked your Butts in the War of 1812, burned down your white house and we are whining? :D :D :D
Come on, get serious.

I&#39;m not sure, but I don&#39;t ene think you were even Canada yet in 1812, you were still a British territory (I could be wrong). The white house thing was one battle. The US won the war of 1812. Check your history books.

And to say that Canada ows nothing to the US is to show the extent off your ignorance regarding economics and geopolitical relationships.
Do you have any Idea how Canada would be without US military protection and economic support?

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2004, 11:11 PM


We are peacekeepers, not warmongers&#33; What do we need protection for? The world hates the U&#036;, not Canada&#33;
Do you think the Soviets and Warsaw cared if you were a bunch of leaf-eating hippies or not? That would be even more incentive to overrun your nation. You would not have been able to put up a very viable defense.

[Commie Girl]

you need to understand that WE ARE UNIVERSALLY LIKED.....WE ARE NOT AFRAID of everything like the U&#036; likes to keep its citizens. We dont need a defense.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2004, 11:21 PM
you need to understand that WE ARE UNIVERSALLY LIKED.....WE ARE NOT AFRAID of everything like the U&#036; likes to keep its citizens. We dont need a defense.
Exactly, because you have the USA. eEven your own government acknowledges this.

And US citizens ahre hardly scared of everything. If you can show me an example of how we are, please do.

[Red Skyscraper]

I&#39;m not sure, but I don&#39;t ene think you were even Canada yet in 1812, you were still a British territory (I could be wrong). The white house thing was one battle. The US won the war of 1812. Check your history books.

The War of 1812 Song

Come back oh proud Canadians
To before they had TV
No Hockey Night in Canada
There was no CBC

In 1812 Madison was mad
He was the President, you know
He thought he&#39;d tell the British
Where they ought to go

He thought he&#39;d invade Canada
He thought that he was tough
Instead we went to Washington
And burned down all his stuff

And the White House burned, burned, burned
And we&#39;re the ones that did it&#33;
It burned burned burned
While the President ran and cried

It burned burned burned
Things were very historical
and the Americans ran and cried like a bunch of little babies, wah wah wah
in the war of 1812&#33;

Now some hillbillies from Kentucky
dressed in green and red
left home to fight in Canada
but they returned home dead

Its only war the Yankees lost
except for Vietnam
and also the Alamo
and the Bay of... Ham

The loser was America
The winner was ourselves
So sing along and gloat about
The war of 1812

Chorus:
And the White House burned, burned, burned
But the Americans won&#39;t admit it
It burned burned burned
It burned and burned and burned

It burned burned burned
I bet that made them mad
and the Americans ran and cried like a bunch of little babies, wah wah wah
in the war of 1812&#33;


And US citizens ahre hardly scared of everything. If you can show me an example of how we are, please do.

Bullshit. :rolleyes: The U&#036; people only feel safer if they have "security," when in fact in the process the government is taking away their individual rights... <_< :ph34r:

[Commie Girl]

Yes....that song says it all, CI. In case you would like to download the song, it is sung by the Arrogant Worms&#33;

And yes, your government keeps its citizens in a constant state of fear, whether it is the terror threat level, the commies are coming, or the sky is falling. Chicken Little?

[Loknar]

actually, the british force that burned down the white house landed from Bermuda, they didnt march in from c anada. canadians really have a hard on for what they think they did.


canada didnt even exist. But we did burn toronto :)

[Red Skyscraper]

If you consider the fact that the Canadians were British at the time, then yes, they were involved. :P

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by Capitalist Imperial+Apr 23 2004, 11:16 PM--> (Capitalist Imperial &#064; Apr 23 2004, 11:16 PM)
[email protected] 23 2004, 11:11 PM

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D Who is whining? We ALL know that Canada owes NOTHING to the U&#036;, we kicked your Butts in the War of 1812, burned down your white house and we are whining? :D :D :D
Come on, get serious.

I&#39;m not sure, but I don&#39;t ene think you were even Canada yet in 1812, you were still a British territory (I could be wrong). The white house thing was one battle. The US won the war of 1812. Check your history books.

And to say that Canada ows nothing to the US is to show the extent off your ignorance regarding economics and geopolitical relationships.
Do you have any Idea how Canada would be without US military protection and economic support? [/b]
Actually if you check your history books you will see that The US lost, and substancially, they invaded Canada, and hoped to add it to the US, they failed in that task, they had their capital burned.

I would say that constitutes as a loss. Though idiots do like to preach America&#39;s naval victroies in that war, where a US 4th rate man of war beat a few cutters and gun boats, and actually think its a major victory. Especially as the british didn&#39;t even send in any of her major fleat.

Its a joke.

At best the US drew that war, and that would have to be a very pro-US historian, considering that the US failed in her objective.

The three major actual land battles won by the US were: -

A) the battle of Plattsburgh, where the US actually regained some lost territory. So they didn&#39;t actually strike a major blow against anyone, they just captured land which they had already lost.. great.

B) Battle of New Orleans, which occured after the war was declaired over. Fantastic.

C) the US burned York, wow, the one major achievement of the US in the war... ohh well.

Great

[Loknar]

enigma of course we lost, we failed in our objective. But the british burned the white house, canadian soliders did not land with that force, as i said the force came from bermuda.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 03:29 PM
enigma of course we lost, we failed in our objective. But the british burned the white house, canadian soliders did not land with that force, as i said the force came from bermuda.
I was responding to CI who is under the impression that the US won that war.

[Red Skyscraper]

But the british burned the white house, canadian soliders did not land with that force, as i said the force came from bermuda.


That doesn&#39;t mean the Canadians were not involved at all.

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Originally posted by Capitalist Imperial+Apr 23 2004, 10:31 PM--> (Capitalist Imperial @ Apr 23 2004, 10:31 PM)
[email protected] 23 2004, 03:56 PM

but c&#39;mon the Taliban and Saddam were no better.

And yet, the U.&#036;. supported, supplied and trained them. :rolleyes:
I never understood this argument. Relationships from 20 years ago can easily change. If history has taught us anything, it is that the world political climate is tumultuous, organic, and subject to change.

Thus, this argument is irrelevant. [/b]
Why is it OK for the US to support terrorists?

Osama Bin Laden and gang haven&#39;t changed their toughts in the past 20 years. It has always been their objective to litterally terrorize every non fundementalistic muslim. His tactics have only changed. First on he terrorized Afgan citizens and now American. They still are the same TERRORISTS that they were 20 years ago. Surely you can&#39;t hold on to the idea that it&#39;s justifiable to terrorize Afgan citizens and not American citizens. That would suggest heavy chauvinistic and nazi toughts :unsure:

[Loknar]

Originally posted by Red [email protected] 25 2004, 03:46 PM

But the british burned the white house, canadian soliders did not land with that force, as i said the force came from bermuda.


That doesn&#39;t mean the Canadians were not involved at all.
maybe there were a few , but the orgins of those regiments were from the british isles not canada. you guys make it sound like a bunch of canadians slipped across the border and burned washington dc. well you didnt. and even if you did i wouldnt be too proud since that same force got its ass kicked soon afterwards. and canada has plenty of military history to proud of, dont go for a period in w hich canada wasnt even a country.

[NYC4Ever]

Ok the past is forgotten. I wanna know how many in here really wish for america to lose the war in Iraq just so America can see how arrogant it is? Ibet many would respond a big fat yes. I just wanna know why the big collectivist thought? I remmeber that before everyone fought corporations and things individualyl now its all America needs to be abolised or nothing. And SexyDJ, Canada is just America light but on the verge of becoming a socialist government. There was a poll done and it indicated that there are two things keeping the world from peace: America and Israel. Why? Because Israel and America have a right to defend themselves from terrorists? I dont understand why you guys think that America is trying to take over Iraq? Lets say we make it look like Texas, would that be an objection to you considering it came from a heap of Stalinistic mess under saddam? Cappie Imperie is right, politics change in the blink of an eye much like when the Russians were our allies in WWII but our biggest foes after that. We did some rotten things, I admit to beat the Soviets but we&#39;e trying to correct much of that now. Everything that happens now is a direct thing from the cold War. You guys say that we helped out the Taliban, well then we took them out now that they harbored who bombed us. You say we helped Saddam, well then we took him out too. Osama wanted us to get tanks out of holy Muslim soil and theyre are out. The people of Iraq are reading and reading the Al-Jazzeera news and getting the impression that we are trying to conquer them. If we did and there were no economic improvements in Iraq after peace is made, then you can talk all you want about us raping it for oil. For now I hate the double standards people take with praises going out the EU, UN and Canada as if they are holy nations of peace and are clean of corruption. Tell that to Rwandans.

[Dan_Canadian]

I don&#39;t mean to break up this whole "who is better argument" between Canada and the U.S., but lets get one thing straight. You all seem to be missing history books, so as a history student, i will help you out. No one won the War of 1812, it was a stalemate. the U.S. won some naval victories, while the Canadian Militia, British, and their Indian allies won battles on land. Secondly, the soldiers who burned the White House were not soldiers, they were unproffessional militiamen and sailors from Atlantic Canada, mostly Nova Scotia. But all of this is irrelevant, no one gained anything from the war of 1812, the only people who lost something were the aboriginals. The aboriginals were being pushed from their lands by American settlers before the war, which caused them to want to fight back (this influenced thier decision to side with the Brits.) Unfortunatly, the British did pretty much the same as the Americans after the war, and the Natives essentially got "screwed over." Lets not make petty arguments over who won the war of 1812, if anything, focus on the people who were truely harmed by it, the Native peoples.

[Dan_Canadian]

Canada is just America light

please explain this analogy to me. I&#39;m sure i&#39;ll be thouroghly insulted :angry:

[QUOTE]Canada as if they are holy nations of peace and are clean of corruption.[QUOTE]

I hope no one thinks that, because it would be ignorant and naive. No nation is clean of corruption or war.

The fact of the matter is, Canada is a great country which I am proud to live in. Say what you will, Canada has done some bad things, but much more good things. While the United States is fighting wars in Iraq, and going against the U.N., Canada is still supporting the U.N. and taking part in EVERY SINGLE peace keeping action around the world. Whether or not you think thats good enough, please don&#39;t scoff it, I myself am in the Canadian military, and I am directly connected with many people serving overseas, getting killed, or injured for what they believe in. I hope someday to do the same....what are you doing to help?

[NYC4Ever]

I do enough already here and am thinking about joining the air force. Im sorry if I offended you. I hate offending men who service their country and im sorry for the offense. If your&#39;re proud of what your country is doing than so be it. I disagree with some of the things your country is doing as much as you disagree with ours. But the same thing can be said about our country when it comes to doing more good than bad.

[Dan_Canadian]

Fair enough, I can respect that. As long as we understand each other thats GREAT&#33; not enough people understand each other in this world today.

[Invader Zim]

Dan_Canadian, what is your politcal ideology?

I am also interested to know whay you joined the armed services.

[Dan_Canadian]

What is my political ideology? To tell you the truth, i don&#39;t know. Call it uncertainty if you will, but unlike a lot of hot-headed young people, I believe that I should grow and mature before I choose what I believe. I need to experiance everything first hand before I can go out there and pretend I know how the world should work. I joined the Canadian Forces when I was sixteen. I really wanted to prove to myself that I could do such a difficult job, and succeed. Also, I am a very proud Canadian and believe in protecting this land that I love so much. Am I protecting our government? And thier ideology? I don&#39;t know, that is not my objective. I love this LAND and its PEOPLE, and thats what I want to protect. I also want to do some peacekeeping tours of duty, and try to bring stability to countries who otherwise have none.

- now, sorry for the long winded answer, but sometiems i think of too many reasons for why I joined the military, and I am constantly thinking up new ones...

What is your ideology?
:)

[Commie Girl]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 11:19 AM
For now I hate the double standards people take with praises going out the EU, UN and Canada as if they are holy nations of peace and are clean of corruption. Tell that to Rwandans.
<_< I think you need to read "Shake hands with the Devil" by Romeo Dallaire, an incredibly respected Canadian General, who was chosen to lead the peacekeeping mission in Rwanda. Then we can discuss Canada, the U&#036; and other governments roles in that genocide.


And yes, we are actually proud to be respected throughout the world as peacekeepers.

[Dan_Canadian]

Yes, you should definatly read that book, it would explain a lot of things you obviously don&#39;t kno. Like, how the Canadian General asked for more troops and help from the U.N. to stop the genocide, and recieved none :(

[Commie Girl]

:( I am about half way through the book but I find myself having to put it down for a few days before I can read anymore. That poor man was absolutely broken after his experience. He does put most of the blame on the U&#036; and of course the UN, where the U&#036; has the veto.

[cubist]

NYC4ever,

i see again, if i could wipe the slate clean for america i would too,

chomsky doesn&#39;t seek to make those hate america he seeks to open the eyes of the blind to the real world, the truth is our nations that represnt our best intrests have never represented our interests.

chomsky doesn&#39;t seek to create terrorists, through the years terrorism is mainly advocated by religion,

al&#39;qeada, hesbola, IRA and Ulster its all political but it all stems from religion.

the point is My government makes me hate my country, i can&#39;t be proud whilst 30,000 + people die each day from starvation alone, i can&#39;t be proud of my nation when we have stock piles of food which goes off and is rendered useless.

it is about being safe, but how about making my country safe from threats by making other people not hate us, why force our lives on other nations when to get them to be like our nations we should help them not profit off them,

i hear sickining arguments that with out globalization third world countries would be worse, maybe this is true but the point is through globalization the countries never catch up with us becuase we make our nations more money before they get any.


its a matter of selflessness, if you cappies believe cpaitalism is the best and only way, why is it failing our worlds, why do people hate your way, why tdo terrorists seek to destroy capitalism in america why does the majority of the world hate you if its not your fault whos is it?

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 01:28 PM
Yes....that song says it all, CI. In case you would like to download the song, it is sung by the Arrogant Worms&#33;

And yes, your government keeps its citizens in a constant state of fear, whether it is the terror threat level, the commies are coming, or the sky is falling. Chicken Little?
Wow, you are right. That song is the official record of the War of 1812. Written by Cnadians after too much moosehead no doubt.

It isn&#39;t even relevant enough to be worth considering.

That song oozes "desperately compensating for an inferiotiy complex by just making up history".

B the way, the reference to the bay of pigs was pure pap. US forces never actually engaged anyone at the bay of pigs.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 05:36 PM
[quote]Canada is just America light

please explain this analogy to me. I&#39;m sure i&#39;ll be thouroghly insulted :angry:


Canada as if they are holy nations of peace and are clean of corruption.[QUOTE]

I hope no one thinks that, because it would be ignorant and naive. No nation is clean of corruption or war.

The fact of the matter is, Canada is a great country which I am proud to live in. Say what you will, Canada has done some bad things, but much more good things. While the United States is fighting wars in Iraq, and going against the U.N., Canada is still supporting the U.N. and taking part in EVERY SINGLE peace keeping action around the world. Whether or not you think thats good enough, please don&#39;t scoff it, I myself am in the Canadian military, and I am directly connected with many people serving overseas, getting killed, or injured for what they believe in. I hope someday to do the same....what are you doing to help?
I agree with you whole-heartedly. I was merely responding to a canadians attack on the USA.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 08:24 PM
What is my political ideology? To tell you the truth, i don&#39;t know. Call it uncertainty if you will, but unlike a lot of hot-headed young people, I believe that I should grow and mature before I choose what I believe. I need to experiance everything first hand before I can go out there and pretend I know how the world should work. I joined the Canadian Forces when I was sixteen. I really wanted to prove to myself that I could do such a difficult job, and succeed. Also, I am a very proud Canadian and believe in protecting this land that I love so much. Am I protecting our government? And thier ideology? I don&#39;t know, that is not my objective. I love this LAND and its PEOPLE, and thats what I want to protect. I also want to do some peacekeeping tours of duty, and try to bring stability to countries who otherwise have none.

- now, sorry for the long winded answer, but sometiems i think of too many reasons for why I joined the military, and I am constantly thinking up new ones...

What is your ideology?
:)
Many here may be hostile to you for your views on country etc.

I don’t like to categorise myself politically, as I choose a position on the situation, people who just follow a strict party line I find are usually to linear. If I am ever forced to say what ideology I believe I am I say socialist. Though many may disagree with that.

[Capitalist Imperial]

I give it about 1 hour underway due west before the Harpoons and precision GBU&#39;s start slamming into british shipping.

And if they think the Harriers are going to help, please send them up. I&#39;m sure several F-14&#39;s and F-18&#39;s are begging the fates for that to happen.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 26 2004, 07:28 PM
I give it about 1 hour underway due west before the Harpoons and precision GBU&#39;s start slamming into british shipping.

And if they think the Harriers are going to help, please send them up. I&#39;m sure several F-14&#39;s and F-18&#39;s are begging the fates for that to happen.
Or we could just use one of our many nuclear submarines, which you can actually see docked at portsmouth to nuke america...

Or maybe just have a preemptive airforce strike on the US and take out your military facilities.

Or just pitt our substancially trained army against your not so well trained but larger army against each other. Usually the more highly trained armies win, but it would be interesting to find out.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by Enigma+Apr 26 2004, 07:35 PM--> (Enigma @ Apr 26 2004, 07:35 PM)
Capitalist [email protected] 26 2004, 07:28 PM
I give it about 1 hour underway due west before the Harpoons and precision GBU&#39;s start slamming into british shipping.

And if they think the Harriers are going to help, please send them up. I&#39;m sure several F-14&#39;s and F-18&#39;s are begging the fates for that to happen.
Or we could just use one of our many nuclear submarines, which you can actually see docked at portsmouth to nuke america...

Or maybe just have a preemptive airforce strike on the US and take out your military facilities.

Or just pitt our substancially trained army against your not so well trained but larger army against each other. Usually the more highly trained armies win, but it would be interesting to find out. [/b]
Enigma,

You understand of course that would be the worst possible mistake that the UK could make.

Every one nuke you attempt to use will be met with 10 US nukes. From land based silos, US ships, US subs, and US bombers.

That is if your Nuclear subs aren&#39;t already eradicated by US Seawolf class Hunter-Killers.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by Capitalist Imperial+Apr 26 2004, 07:40 PM--> (Capitalist Imperial @ Apr 26 2004, 07:40 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 07:35 PM

Capitalist [email protected] 26 2004, 07:28 PM
I give it about 1 hour underway due west before the Harpoons and precision GBU&#39;s start slamming into british shipping.

And if they think the Harriers are going to help, please send them up. I&#39;m sure several F-14&#39;s and F-18&#39;s are begging the fates for that to happen.
Or we could just use one of our many nuclear submarines, which you can actually see docked at portsmouth to nuke america...

Or maybe just have a preemptive airforce strike on the US and take out your military facilities.

Or just pitt our substancially trained army against your not so well trained but larger army against each other. Usually the more highly trained armies win, but it would be interesting to find out.
Enigma,

You understand of course that would be the worst possible mistake that the UK could make.

Every one nuke you attempt to use will be met with 10 US nukes. From land based silos, US ships, US subs, and US bombers.

That is if your Nuclear subs aren&#39;t already eradicated by US Seawolf class Hunter-Killers. [/b]
we may be dead, but so would you... welcome to nuclear holacaust.

That is if your Nuclear subs aren&#39;t already eradicated by US Seawolf class Hunter-Killers.

You do realise that this would be a pre-emptive strike, so your forces would be incapable of such responce. But we could just use missle technollogy and just wipe you out that way.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2004, 07:35 PM
Or we could just use one of our many nuclear submarines, which you can actually see docked at portsmouth to nuke america...

Or maybe just have a preemptive airforce strike on the US and take out your military facilities.

Or just pitt our substancially trained army against your not so well trained but larger army against each other. Usually the more highly trained armies win, but it would be interesting to find out.

Or we could just use one of our many nuclear submarines, which you can actually see docked at portsmouth to nuke america...

See above


Or maybe just have a preemptive airforce strike on the US and take out your military facilities.


If you can manage a preemptive strike on US soil, you deserve to win. That won&#39;t happen, though. Hw are you going to get your aircraft here? You don&#39;t have a large enough or good enough air force. Most of your planes would be sent to the bottom of the atlantic before getting past greenland.


Or just pitt our substancially trained army against your not so well trained but larger army against each other. Usually the more highly trained armies win, but it would be interesting to find out.

The British army is well trained, but the US army is also well trained, but much larger, and much better equipped, with a much better coordination of forces and command/control ability. It would be a no-contest if it was a conventional war.

[Dune Dx]

no Britain has far better trained troops we have the best special forces in the world your commanders in the gulf war didnt like to use special forces till they saw the SAS in action. The brittish army is admired throughout the world for its training and command and our naval personel and pilots are better too. the brittish army has a history in every place on the planet at fighting

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 26 2004, 07:45 PM

Or maybe just have a preemptive airforce strike on the US and take out your military facilities.


If you can manage a preemptive strike on US soil, you deserve to win. That won&#39;t happen, though.
Osama Bin Laden managed it, through not very legitimate means, i&#39;m sure that the british could come up with something, we are quite a resourceful people.


Anyway this is a very pointless subject, because we all know that the chanses of the US and the UK having another war is highly unlikley.

[Raisa]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 09:40 PM
Liberty is always better than equality.


When its your liberty its better. There is no real liberty with out equality. And even for the people who enjoy it the most, they have to worry about some one trying to "steal" it from them.

[Quidam]

As far as freedom goes, the USA is getting worse nowadays. Canada allows its citizens more civil liberties (but taxes are higher). Australia and New Zealand, from what I&#39;ve heard from those who live there, are also less biased compared to the U.S. (i.e. you don&#39;t have to be white, male and catholic to become president... hate to classify like this, but it&#39;s too often true in America). Iceland is also a relatively free country, probably due to the sparse population...

America has become far too much of rogue superpower of late. It has its moments, but it also has a lot of flaws.

Anarctica, anyone...

[Commie Girl]

Capitalist Imperial


Here is a link to show you what the U&#036; has done, including the failed invasion of Canada:



Link (http://americanpeace.eccmei.net/) :D Cheers&#33;

[DaCuBaN]

Wow. According to that table the US has only been at PEACE for 23 of her 227 years of independance. What a fucking record - I&#39;m ashamed to be related to anyone under that flag now :unsure:

[Professor Moneybags]

Or just pitt our substancially trained army against your not so well trained but larger army against each other. Usually the more highly trained armies win, but it would be interesting to find out.

...An advantage which is cancelled out by the fact that our shitty guns don&#39;t work.

[cubist]

children cut your fucking egos,


Wow. According to that table the US has only been at PEACE for 23 of her 227 years of independance. What a fucking record - I&#39;m ashamed to be related to anyone under that flag now
agreed

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by Dune [email protected] 26 2004, 08:55 PM
no Britain has far better trained troops we have the best special forces in the world your commanders in the gulf war didnt like to use special forces till they saw the SAS in action. The brittish army is admired throughout the world for its training and command and our naval personel and pilots are better too. the brittish army has a history in every place on the planet at fighting
They are well trained, but not better than US forces overall.

And your pilots are not better, that&#39;s for sure. US pilots have much more training and much more experience (and better aircraft).

As far as the Navies go, you were once the best, but not the best today. I would venture to say that 1 single US carrier battle group or 2 could take the whole British navy. You don&#39;t even have a nuclear powered carrier

It really wouldn&#39;t be much of a contest.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 02:38 AM
Capitalist Imperial


Here is a link to show you what the U&#036; has done, including the failed invasion of Canada:



Link (http://americanpeace.eccmei.net/) :D Cheers&#33;
The "failed invasion of Canada" in the early 1800&#39;s is irrelevant today, as at this point we could invade, occupy, and have Canada annexed within 1 months time (and still have time to stop by McDonalds for a #4 supersize&#33;&#33;&#33;)

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 03:07 AM
Wow. According to that table the US has only been at PEACE for 23 of her 227 years of independance. What a fucking record - I&#39;m ashamed to be related to anyone under that flag now :unsure:
How nice that you accept that simple little table of filthy anti-US propoganda as absolute truth. I&#39;m glad to know that you leftist pukes are so analytical and objective in your analysis.

That was sarcasm, by the way, as I&#39;m sure I need to spell most things out for you stupid idiots. Obviously, your self-proclaimed deep thinking and analysis does not apply when you are spoon-fed leftist propoganda. Where is the analysis or context of these actions, or even the proof of some of the numbers that seemed to me to be simply thrown out? If you red sucks had scratched the surface even one iota, you probably would find that these actions were all justified.



Wow. According to that table the US has only been at PEACE for 23 of her 227 years of independance. What a fucking record - I&#39;m ashamed to be related to anyone under that flag now :unsure:

We&#39;re sorry, but you must have us confused with someone who gives a fuck&#33;&#33;&#33; We don&#39;t care what you think of us. If we cared about what everyone thought and just bowed down to the whims of others, we wouldn&#39;t be America. We&#39;d be, uh, Canada&#33;&#33;&#33;

You being ashamed does not matter 1 iota. No one wants you around here anyway.

[elhumano]

I would have to agree with the Capitalist Imperial. You guys are leftest pukes [EDITED] or your just unpriviledge people who feel the government should pay for all your bills (get a job you losers) You should love the US with out it you wouldnt have anything to really ***** about. I hope the US takes over Canada too...they have good pot. and the Poser of the day comment goes too


DaCuban(POSER) Wow. According to that table the US has only been at PEACE for 23 of her 227 years of independance. What a fucking record - I&#39;m ashamed to be related to anyone under that flag now. - I&#39;ve got an idea go back to Cuba and let Castro fuck your mother while you watch.


Relax son, you would not want the gay agenda to end up targeting you do you?

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by Professor [email protected] 27 2004, 09:23 AM

Or just pitt our substancially trained army against your not so well trained but larger army against each other. Usually the more highly trained armies win, but it would be interesting to find out.

...An advantage which is cancelled out by the fact that our shitty guns don&#39;t work.
actually the SA80 does work, but idiots in the press like to bullshit about how it doesnt, based on a few examples, which are rather isolated.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by Enigma+Apr 27 2004, 05:11 PM--> (Enigma @ Apr 27 2004, 05:11 PM)
Professor [email protected] 27 2004, 09:23 AM

Or just pitt our substancially trained army against your not so well trained but larger army against each other. Usually the more highly trained armies win, but it would be interesting to find out.

...An advantage which is cancelled out by the fact that our shitty guns don&#39;t work.
actually the SA80 does work, but idiots in the press like to bullshit about how it doesnt, based on a few examples, which are rather isolated. [/b]
I don&#39;&#39;t even think that british troops are trained any better than US troops in the 1st place.

For the most part, both forces pretty much share "best practices" and have commonized training.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by Capitalist Imperial+Apr 27 2004, 05:24 PM--> (Capitalist Imperial @ Apr 27 2004, 05:24 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 05:11 PM

Professor [email protected] 27 2004, 09:23 AM

Or just pitt our substancially trained army against your not so well trained but larger army against each other. Usually the more highly trained armies win, but it would be interesting to find out.

...An advantage which is cancelled out by the fact that our shitty guns don&#39;t work.
actually the SA80 does work, but idiots in the press like to bullshit about how it doesnt, based on a few examples, which are rather isolated.
I don&#39;&#39;t even think that british troops are trained any better than US troops in the 1st place.

For the most part, both forces pretty much share "best practices" and have commonized training. [/b]
Well your wrong, British troops spend more time in training than any other regular armed forces in the world, and the special forces are in the same bracket, with the exception of the Israeli special forces.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 05:31 PM
Well your wrong, British troops spend more time in training than any other regular armed forces in the world, and the special forces are in the same bracket, with the exception of the Israeli special forces.
Time in training is a large factor, but no the only one. US forces also leverage their size and sophistication of equipment, which are large factors in overall capability. UK forces spend plenty of time in training, but US forces have the most ewxperience in real combat, which is much better than actual training could ever be.

RE: Special forces: This is an argument I&#39;ve had many times with many people, it always goes in one big circle. No one can say one special forces is better than another, because almost all special forces have distinctly different missions. Plus, most of what they do is classified. What we know of their missions just scratches the surface of their accomplishments. How ccan you compare two things when you don&#39;t even really know what they do and how good they do it?

So, comparing specail forces is comparing apples and oranges, and even then you can&#39;t really even get a full &#39;taste" of either one&#33;&#33;&#33;

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by Capitalist Imperial+Apr 27 2004, 05:40 PM--> (Capitalist Imperial @ Apr 27 2004, 05:40 PM)
[email protected] 27 2004, 05:31 PM
Well your wrong, British troops spend more time in training than any other regular armed forces in the world, and the special forces are in the same bracket, with the exception of the Israeli special forces.

Time in training is a large factor, but no the only one. US forces also leverage their size and sophistication of equipment, which are large factors in overall capability. UK forces spend plenty of time in training, but US forces have the most ewxperience in real combat, which is much better than actual training could ever be.

RE: Special forces: This is an argument I&#39;ve had many times with many people, it always goes in one big circle. No one can say one special forces is better than another, because almost all special forces have distinctly different missions. Plus, most of what they do is classified. What we know of their missions just scratches the surface of their accomplishments. How ccan you compare two things when you don&#39;t even really know what they do and how good they do it?

So, comparing specail forces is comparing apples and oranges, and even then you can&#39;t really even get a full &#39;taste" of either one&#33;&#33;&#33; [/b]
Time in training is a large factor, but no the only one. US forces also leverage their size and sophistication of equipment, which are large factors in overall capability. UK forces spend plenty of time in training, but US forces have the most ewxperience in real combat, which is much better than actual training could ever be.

US forces do not have more experiance, we the british have been in just about every major conflict which the US has been in for about 40 years, and more because we have had our own private wars, and have been battling terrorism for decades.

I accept you special forces argument, it makes sense, however detailed books and analasys of these groups have, and are taking place. The fact is that the SAS are renound for their extream skill and professionalism. Possibly the greatest example would be the hostage crisis in the 80&#39;s where the SAS made a text book example of how special forces should operate.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by Enigma+Apr 27 2004, 05:47 PM--> (Enigma @ Apr 27 2004, 05:47 PM)
Originally posted by Capitalist [email protected] 27 2004, 05:40 PM

[email protected] 27 2004, 05:31 PM
Well your wrong, British troops spend more time in training than any other regular armed forces in the world, and the special forces are in the same bracket, with the exception of the Israeli special forces.

Time in training is a large factor, but no the only one. US forces also leverage their size and sophistication of equipment, which are large factors in overall capability. UK forces spend plenty of time in training, but US forces have the most ewxperience in real combat, which is much better than actual training could ever be.

RE: Special forces: This is an argument I&#39;ve had many times with many people, it always goes in one big circle. No one can say one special forces is better than another, because almost all special forces have distinctly different missions. Plus, most of what they do is classified. What we know of their missions just scratches the surface of their accomplishments. How ccan you compare two things when you don&#39;t even really know what they do and how good they do it?

So, comparing specail forces is comparing apples and oranges, and even then you can&#39;t really even get a full &#39;taste" of either one&#33;&#33;&#33;
Time in training is a large factor, but no the only one. US forces also leverage their size and sophistication of equipment, which are large factors in overall capability. UK forces spend plenty of time in training, but US forces have the most ewxperience in real combat, which is much better than actual training could ever be.

US forces do not have more experiance, we the british have been in just about every major conflict which the US has been in for about 40 years, and more because we have had our own private wars, and have been battling terrorism for decades.

I accept you special forces argument, it makes sense, however detailed books and analasys of these groups have, and are taking place. The fact is that the SAS are renound for their extream skill and professionalism. Possibly the greatest example would be the hostage crisis in the 80&#39;s where the SAS made a text book example of how special forces should operate. [/b]
I absolutely agreee that the SAS is highly capable and has a hisory of flawless execution and successful missions.

[Dune Dx]

If America tried to Invade Canada the Queen would order a war on America straight away and the Queen is the most powerfull head of state in the world America cant beat the whole common wealth and lets face which contry in the world is going to turn down the chance to beat America&#33;


Germany in the seccond world war had a small well trained force that was able to train the rest of the populace extremely quickly and well, it took 4 nations plus the empires to bring it down

[lucid]

Originally posted by Dune [email protected] 27 2004, 06:44 PM
If America tried to Invade Canada the Queen would order a war on America straight away and the Queen is the most powerfull head of state in the world America cant beat the whole common wealth and lets face which contry in the world is going to turn down the chance to beat America&#33;


Germany in the seccond world war had a small well trained force that was able to train the rest of the populace extremely quickly and well, it took 4 nations plus the empires to bring it down
Most powerful head of state in the world huh. Put the pipe down and let it cool off.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by Dune [email protected] 27 2004, 06:44 PM
If America tried to Invade Canada the Queen would order a war on America straight away and the Queen is the most powerfull head of state in the world America cant beat the whole common wealth and lets face which contry in the world is going to turn down the chance to beat America&#33;


Germany in the seccond world war had a small well trained force that was able to train the rest of the populace extremely quickly and well, it took 4 nations plus the empires to bring it down
1st of all, The United States military could easily take the commonwealth to school with little problem. That is not even a question. The US is larger and better equipped than all commonwealth members combined, and by a very wide margin at that.

2nd, How is the queen the most powerful head of state? She isn&#39;t even a real head of state in the 1st place. Her power is symbolic, she has little real political power. You don&#39;t know what you are talking about. She has absolutely no control over foreign affairs or the military.

The president of the USA is by far the world&#39;s most powerful head of state.

[bunk]

also Australia and possibly a euro-chinese alliance.

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 08:12 PM
also Australia and possibly a euro-chinese alliance.
China would be thinking of her interests, which would favor her siding with the USA. The current and future relationship with America is more important than her relationship with the UK, in both economic and geo-political terms.

[bunk]

i doubt it forgotten about Taiwan? Japan? Also i said Europe not just Britain.

[DaCuBaN]

My god, who let the patriots in :lol:

Europe would get taken to the cleaners in an all out war with the USA. In a true conventional war I&#39;d think the stakes would be closer, and if it was a situation where (as one person said) the US was invading Canada, half the damn world would rally with the good, reasonable democratic people of Canada against the evil imperialistic might of the yanquis.

It&#39;s a no brainer to be honest <_< :rolleyes:

[Commie Girl]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 03:55 PM
My god, who let the patriots in :lol:

Europe would get taken to the cleaners in an all out war with the USA. In a true conventional war I&#39;d think the stakes would be closer, and if it was a situation where (as one person said) the US was invading Canada, half the damn world would rally with the good, reasonable democratic people of Canada against the evil imperialistic might of the yanquis.

It&#39;s a no brainer to be honest <_< :rolleyes:
:D Yup...the other 98% of the world would definately kick your ass&#33;

[Osman Ghazi]

China would be thinking of her interests, which would favor her siding with the USA. The current and future relationship with America is more important than her relationship with the UK, in both economic and geo-political terms.

Suppose China realizes that this is probably going to be their one chance to defeat America once and for all? I don&#39;t think that China is in any way tied to the united states. There is some minor economic exchange, bu tit is more benficial to the U&#036; than to China. Whatever China had with America coul&#39;d easily be reforged with the other nations of the world plus I don&#39;t think that China would turn down the optino to become numero uno in the world.

[Invader Zim]

Like I said before this is all entirley irrelevant because a few european countries have nuclear capabilities, as does America, it is not a case of winning or losing its a case of wiping the entire world out in nuclear holacaust.

[DaCuBaN]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 10:34 PM
Like I said before this is all entirley irrelevant because a few european countries have nuclear capabilities, as does America, it is not a case of winning or losing its a case of wiping the entire world out in nuclear holacaust.
and so of course, war is highly unlikely.

Let&#39;s try and wrestle this back on topic, eh? :D :rolleyes:

America to me is a free land - people have decent civil rights in comparison to some parts of the world, and political rights are above average at least. My beef has never been with the way you treat your own though - you can be as selfish as you like there - it&#39;s always been about US foreign policy, which has been expansionistic if not imperialistic. Again, listen to Randy Newman&#39;s Political Science. In about 50 words he sums up the whole argument for the right, and how preposterous it actually is :)

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 09:55 PM
My god, who let the patriots in :lol:

Europe would get taken to the cleaners in an all out war with the USA. In a true conventional war I&#39;d think the stakes would be closer, and if it was a situation where (as one person said) the US was invading Canada, half the damn world would rally with the good, reasonable democratic people of Canada against the evil imperialistic might of the yanquis.

It&#39;s a no brainer to be honest <_< :rolleyes:
I wouldn&#39;t be too sure that the world would be stepping up for Canada. Opposing the USA is not an easy or necessarily good decision.

Also, circumstances of the invasion would have to be considered.

[Capitalist Imperial]

good, reasonable democratic people of Canada against the evil imperialistic might of the yanquis.

Man, this is why I love this site so much, LOL, LOL, ROFL, LMAO :P :D :lol:

[DaCuBaN]

I think the moral battle between US and Canada is always going to land on the maple leaf side...

It is all so much hot air though - it&#39;s a situation that simply will not happen.

So.... ANY chance of getting this back on topic sometime soon?

[Rasta Sapian]

man o man, am I dependant on KFC or is KFC dependant on me?

walmart is so great, if they had a bed for me, I would never leave that place :)

drive throughs are great, I don&#39;t have to leave my gas guzzling car all day, I can get full service at the gas station, go get my mc lunch, catch a drive through movie.........................

I feel so Independant :D

[DaCuBaN]

I wouldn&#39;t be too sure that the world would be stepping up for Canada. Opposing the USA is not an easy or necessarily good decision

Listen to the words of fellow american Randy Newman and identify with him:

&#39;Noone likes us&#39;

So with that said, I think every nation on the face of this planet would step up to take a crack at the USA. Doesn&#39;t make it a good idea, but considering if the ENTIRE WORLD lined up against the US, the only options remainging are:
1)surrender
2)kill everyone

and if they go with the latter, there&#39;d be noone left to exploit :rolleyes: :D

&#39;boom goes london, boom paree
more room for you and more room for me
and every city the whole world round
will just be another american town
oh how peaceful it would be
we&#39;ll set everybody free&#39;

[elhumano]

&#39;boom goes london, boom paree
more room for you and more room for me
and every city the whole world round
will just be another american town
oh how peaceful it would be
we&#39;ll set everybody free&#39;

We&#39;ll start with Iraq....GO USA&#33;

[lucid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 03:09 PM
&#39;boom goes london, boom paree
more room for you and more room for me
and every city the whole world round
will just be another american town
oh how peaceful it would be
we&#39;ll set everybody free&#39;

We&#39;ll start with Iraq....GO USA&#33;
I like that song&#33;

[Capitalist Imperial]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 06:15 AM

I wouldn&#39;t be too sure that the world would be stepping up for Canada. Opposing the USA is not an easy or necessarily good decision

Listen to the words of fellow american Randy Newman and identify with him:

&#39;Noone likes us&#39;

So with that said, I think every nation on the face of this planet would step up to take a crack at the USA. Doesn&#39;t make it a good idea, but considering if the ENTIRE WORLD lined up against the US, the only options remainging are:
1)surrender
2)kill everyone

and if they go with the latter, there&#39;d be noone left to exploit :rolleyes: :D

&#39;boom goes london, boom paree
more room for you and more room for me
and every city the whole world round
will just be another american town
oh how peaceful it would be
we&#39;ll set everybody free&#39;
That would mean more to me were Randy Newman not a stark-raving idiot. Someone needs to put his head through his piano.

[DaCuBaN]

ROFL yeah he was a bit of a nutter really. Odd that the man responsible for &#39;You&#39;ve Got A Friend In Me&#39; could come up with something so deeply ironic :D

He&#39;s a cult icon as far as yanquis go in the UK though.

[Nas]

the USA capitalism system is more corrupted than you may think

[DaCuBaN]

That would mean more to me were Randy Newman not a stark-raving idiot. Someone needs to put his head through his piano.


The line between madness and genious is very fine, and totally subjective. That said I do agree he was a bit of a fruitcake :D

Take another - Roger Waters. Total and utter madman alleged to have drunk a pint of acid :blink: but came up with some of the most inspiring lyrics of all time.