Who betrayed Che Guevara?

[fernando]

I watched this Swedish documentary the other day about who betrayed Che Guevara...

History has already concemned Ciro Bustos as the traitor, he gave away all the information to the Bolivian militairy in order to capture Che...

However the documentary shows that is wasnt just Ciro Bustos, Ciro might have given some information, but not everything.
The documentary makers try to research this and find out that many of the information seems to have little mistakes, like the way Regis Debray has come off with this, he kinda seems like the big hero now while Ciro Bustos is the Judas of left wing Latin America in a way...

What do you guys think about all this?

[Wiesty]

Actually the traitor was not anyone who knew che (well not closely) It was an ederly woman that Che and his Guirrelas paid to keep quiet. She told the bolivian forces where che was heading and they caught him in del yuro gorge.

[fernando]

Well history has judges Ciro Bustos, I dont know if you have heard of him? But they claim that he was also responsible for the capture of "El Che"

[toastedmonkey]

I think latin america is very hard on Ciro, he was a very good friend of che's to the end, at least that the impression i got.

He had to draw pictures of the guerillas, i supposed he could of been inacurate, but the pressure must of been intense and the Bolivians already had a good idea ernesto was around. Who can say how one would act under such pressure, fear of life, and probbaly torture/interogation?

I cant remember the details so much of the actions of Regis Debray, but i know i have a low opinion of him.

I think he was the biggest culprit in it all, wasnt he the Bolivian communist party leader or something like that?
he offered lots of support and completely betrayed che, i think he has a lot to answer for.

As for the old woman being responsible...! no no, she was a peasent who knew nothing else, the army wouldnt of thought twice of killing her.
besides the guerillas didnt have the support of the locals

Oh and id just like to discourage anyone from suggesting Fidel Castro was responsible, that conspiracy has many threads of its own in the past, and if its not too bold to say... lets keep this threads to likely/believeable accounts

[Hate Is Art]

Is Ciro still alive? If so what does he have to say about, same goes for Debray.

[toastedmonkey]

Cirio is still alive, he moved to sweden though, he has a private number and lives in a place called "Malmö"

He paints for a living, but the people he paints have no faces

[fernando]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 07:42 PM
Cirio is still alive, he moved to sweden though, he has a private number and lives in a place called "Malmö"

He paints for a living, but the people he paints have no faces
Ah you have seen that documentary too...I too have a low opinion about Debray...

But if Cuba was also responsible for the betrayal of Che it would be the higher members of the communist party there, I mean Che wanted everybody to work and be equal while some of the higher ranking members of the party didnt want that, and were more like the communists seen in Europe....(ranking system)

So I think they also had him send out to do this futile action in Bolivia, maybe Fidel was also involved, maybe Russia too

[redfront]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 07:42 PM
Cirio is still alive, he moved to sweden though, he has a private number and lives in a place called "Malmö"

He paints for a living, but the people he paints have no faces
Wow, he lives in Malmö?
That's not very far from me, and i go there every second weekend :blink:

Is there any of his pictures on the internet? I would love to see some

[fernando]

Ciro Bustos, as he looks nowadays:
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/0101/14/NYHETER-14s20che2.jpg

[Fidel Castro]

maybe Fidel was also involved

In Cuba, after the revolution, Che was just a popular with the masses as Fidel. If he were to have a hand in Che's demise Fidel would know fine well that the Cubans would never forgive him. I believe that Fidel did have a certain admiration and respect for Che, however I also believe that both Che and Fidel had different aims and ideals which divided them.

The CIA were certainly involved in Che's death.

[fernando]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 07:07 PM

maybe Fidel was also involved

In Cuba, after the revolution, Che was just a popular with the masses as Fidel. If he were to have a hand in Che's demise Fidel would know fine well that the Cubans would never forgive him. I believe that Fidel did have a certain admiration and respect for Che, however I also believe that both Che and Fidel had different aims and ideals which divided them.

The CIA were certainly involved in Che's death.
Well...Che might have been compitition for Fidel, or somebody below Che wanted to climb up and have more power, and was responsible...

The latter idea sounds more logical to me, maybe a conspiracy ofsome Party members who tried to climb up.

But the fact that the CIA were involved...DUH!!! I mean they tried to kill him no matter what, but they were looking for Che, and because of the help of some people he got found.

[Severian]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 11:51 AM
I cant remember the details so much of the actions of Regis Debray, but i know i have a low opinion of him.

I think he was the biggest culprit in it all, wasnt he the Bolivian communist party leader or something like that?
he offered lots of support and completely betrayed che, i think he has a lot to answer for.
That was Mario Monje. Yes, he and the Bolivian Communist Party leadership promised support and then didn't follow up. Che harshly criticizes them in the Bolivian Diary. IMO the Bolivian CP leadership's behavior was the leading reason for the defeat of Che's guerilla, and relying on them at all was Che's biggest mistake.


As for the old woman being responsible...! no no, she was a peasent who knew nothing else, the army wouldnt of thought twice of killing her.
besides the guerillas didnt have the support of the locals

The last is probably an overly sweeping generalization. There were some people who helped them - with more time to prepare there likely would have been more. The guerilla was planned with consideration of the political situation in Bolivia, including the miners' strikes and the violent suppression of those strikes, etc. There's an interesting book by Rodolfo Saldana, who was head of the urban support network for the guerillas, about this.

I don't really think informers should ever be left off the hook, either...though I agree its far more treacherous when someone who's a political activist does it.


Oh and id just like to discourage anyone from suggesting Fidel Castro was responsible, that conspiracy has many threads of its own in the past, and if its not too bold to say... lets keep this threads to likely/believeable accounts

Yup. See the sticky thread at the top of the forum - the link at the beginning of it, and a post by yours truly on the last page.

[toastedmonkey]

Fernado: no i havent seen any doucumentry on it, my svensk isnt very good ;)

Severian: thank you for correcting my mistakes

oh and yes, mario monje, his name escaped me - he is certaintly the one i think was largely responsible

[fernando]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 07:37 PM
Fernado: no i havent seen any doucumentry on it, my svensk isnt very good ;)

Severian: thank you for correcting my mistakes

oh and yes, mario monje, his name escaped me - he is certaintly the one i think was largely responsible
well it has subtitels...and most of it was in spanish, english and french :P

[Wiesty]

of Course the cia had to do with his death, they gave bolivia orders to kill che. And fidel and che were like friends in and outside of the revolution.

[Wiesty]

OCTOBER 7, 1967: The last entry in Che’s diary is recorded exactly eleven months since the inauguration of the guerrilla movement. The guerrillas run into an old woman herding goats. They ask her if there are soldiers in the area but are unable to get any reliable information. Scared that she will report them, they pay her 50 pesos to keep quiet. In Che’s diary it is noted that he has "little hope" that she will do so. (Harris, 126; CIA Weekly Review, "The Che Guevara Diary," 12/15/67)



OCTOBER 8, 1967: A peasant women alerts the army that she heard voices along the banks of the Yuro close to the spot where it runs along the San Antonio river. It is unknown whether it is the same peasant woman that the guerrillas ran into previously. (Rojo 218)

Thats what i was talking about it was that lady who betrayed i guess

[reunite ratm]

As per the lack of peasant/rural support during the Bolivia campaign, the negative stance taken by Mario Montje after Che had already departed to the jungles of Bolivia severely hampered and prevented organization of the masses. Che's group was counting on the support of local miners and student groups, but their efforts were suppressed by the BCP leadership after their betrayal.

[canikickit]

That's a brilliant documentry.
Debray looks extremely guilty when they interview him.
I like Bustos.

[fernando]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 03:13 AM
That's a brilliant documentry.
Debray looks extremely guilty when they interview him.
I like Bustos.
exactly I had the same feeling about Debray, I dont trust him, and what about that french writer who wrote that book about Che, he was defending Debray...well I would too if he was my close friend <_<

I think it&#39;s really shitty that Ciro Bustos has been turned into the scapegoat of history sort of speak...

[toastedmonkey]

other than him drawing the pictures, what inspired the "hate campagain" of Ciro Bustos

who blamed him?

and was it endorsed by Cuba?

[fernando]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 06:02 PM
other than him drawing the pictures, what inspired the "hate campagain" of Ciro Bustos

who blamed him?

and was it endorsed by Cuba?
It was endorsed by Cuba I think..after Bustos and Debray were released, Bustos was totally ignores while Debray was brought in as a hero for socialism.

[canikickit]

I heard through Larissa, the member who posted here before that Bustos is very much disliked in modern day Cuba.

Bustos is cool, despite his big nose. :)

[Emster]

So, all of you who seen the documentary, any idea why Cuba puts the blame on Bustos? Political motives?
It feel like the facts speaks for themselves, I think he is innocent..

[Cobra]

maybe Fidel was also involved
I’m not sure who betrayed Che and I’m not going to guess. But I can tell you for certain that it wasn’t Fidel. Fidel and Che were like brothers. Fidel would not betray Che even if his life depended on it. If anyone else suggests that he did, I will beat him or her with a stick. Well… maybe not her, but you get the point. :angry:

[Emster]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2004, 03:22 PM

maybe Fidel was also involved
I’m not sure who betrayed Che and I’m not going to guess. But I can tell you for certain that it wasn’t Fidel. Fidel and Che were like brothers. Fidel would not betray Che even if his life depended on it. If anyone else suggests that he did, I will beat him or her with a stick. Well… maybe not her, but you get the point. :angry:


I&#39;m not sure that I got this quote right but anyways...

Offcourse Fidel would not personally betray Che...but...the fact that he did not support Che and his men in Bolivia as much as he should have, could have been one of the reasons for why some men were captured in the first place...and forced to confirm Che&#39;s presence in Bolivia.

[Subversive Pessimist]

I just want to say that, if anyone needs to translate anything from scandinavian (Danish, Norwegian, Swedish), I&#39;m here for you.

[emmissary]

Mario Monje

[Kurai Tsuki]

Fidel had told Che that if he went into Bolivia he would have the support of the communist party there, but he arrived and found out that they would not help him.

[fernando]

Che was stubborn and wanted to lead the revolution there, but Mario Monje wanted to lead it...so I think Monje ditched Che because of some ego problems