Marx is wrong 2

[Dune Dx]

I posted this point on another topic because I want my points in Marx is wrong 1&2 to both have replies.
Marx says that the proletariot will rise up and over through the bourgeis and destroy the class sytem.

This will not happen. Over time we have seen immense divides between countries the rich being in the North and the poor being in the South. The North exploit the workers in the south and there is nothing the south can do about it, They can not rise up against people that are in stronger positions than them. Do you think countries like the US will stand ideoly by and watch their investments abroad be overthrown.
Now the USSR has gone there is nowhere a communist goverment can be set up without being destroyed by the US.
The only chance a communist goverment has is being democraticly voted into power in a country with nuclear arsenals.

[El Che]

I am baffled by the depth of your rebuttal of Marx.

[Dirty Commie]

Originally posted by El [email protected] 18 2004, 03:28 PM
I am baffled by the depth of your rebuttal of Marx.
Wow, my exact same thoughts

[Pawn Power]

it is not just the poor that will rise up but all of the working class, and the working class outnumbers the bourgeis . It will happen eventually when the when times get hard enough and all of the working class understands capitalism does not work and they are working to support the big bosses

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

What makes you so sure things are going to get bad enough for the conditions of revolution. Realistically capitalism will give major concessions when it is under threat.

[El Che]

Geist, to suggest that capitalism will forever be able to blow smoke in the face of the working man, swindle us with petty change, is to insult human intelligence. If you've ever worked (real work) you will know that you don't need any socialist theory to know that you are being fucked over. If and when they give us an opening we will bring the house down.

Regardless, though, I know where I stand and I know where the only place to stand is. Just because you might not win is no reason to give up the fight.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

I would most certainly suggest that it is possible, Ive worked in offices and on building sites in the summer holidays between school and college and I see no sense of anybody with any kind of conciousness about the evil capitalist system. To them money's money and politics is about who gets them what they want cheaper.

[Individual]

Here is the problem:

Many of you guys expect too much.

You sit in anticipation, at your computer while using your other hand to control your video game, assuming that a revolution will arise before it is time for dinner.

Revolution does not happen overnight. Revolution does not happen in a year. Hell, the revolution will likely not even happen in my lifetime. However I strongly believe that the revolution will happen.

Dune. I have a feeling that you have no concept of time. Which I can understand to a degree, but I ask that you start expanding your views and realize that society has been advancing for thousands of years. To expect something, or even assume what you have, is asinine.

Sure the U.S. would do everything in its economic power to stop a Marxist uprising. However think about this:

Who said the U.S. will last forever? :huh:

Aspects of society change. Aspects of society will change. It will stay this way until the end of human life.

So don't assume that the US will crush any Marxist uprising, because the U.S. will not be around to crush it. What is to say that the uprising doesn't occur when the U.S. calapses? What is to say that Capitalism doesn't destroy itself, leaving the people with Marxism?

Capitalism will slowly, but surely, defeat itself. Less people will become rich, and more people will become poor. That is what Capitalism does, and that is what it will do. Over time this process will take its toll on the people, and on society as a whole. The numbers of the working class will increase, leaving society with an ever growing buzz about the works of Karl Marx.

As much as any of us may hate the Capitalistic ways of the U.S., Britain, Japan, etc. Letting Capitalism complete itself is actually better for the cause. None of us should be worried about starting a revolution, or urging the revolution upon the people. By doing this, we will create an unwelcome stigma about Marxism, and will leave us in fewer numbers.

What needs to be done is to sit back and let Capitalism run its course. Now this may sound foolish, however pushing a revolution is not a logical idea. We shouldn't be so eager to fight in the revolution. Even if the revolution passes through our life time and none of us are able to better society, Marxism will prevail and eventually the majority of the World's population will discover the benefits of Marxism and the end of Capitalism will become.

Wait for the future, don't ruin the future.

[Maynard]

Marx says that the proletariot will rise up and over through the bourgeis and destroy the class sytem.

Yeah, how can you say that's "wrong" till the world blows up and it hasn't happened ?


Over time we have seen immense divides between countries the rich being in the North and the poor being in the South. The North exploit the workers in the south and there is nothing the south can do about it, They can not rise up against people that are in stronger positions than them. Do you think countries like the US will stand idly by and watch their investments abroad be overthrown.

Yes and as the divide get's bigger, you think those in the south, including me, though I'm not really in a poor country, will just sit idly by for ALL of human existence. This will not happen, people only take oppression for so long , till they act upon it. There is plenty of things people in the south can do, they aren't helpless human beings. Most countries in the South had to fight to gain independence and stop being colonies against Northern nations. They did it, because they had the power of numbers on their side. Of course, the US won't sit idly by but what if there is spontaneous revolutions in South America and Africa at the same time ? The US military is powerful but even the United States power couldn't stop there investments being "overthrown" in Cuba, the USSR, Vietnam or China. Of course people can "rise up" what do you think Slaves did against there "masters" in the United States, peasants rose up in China, Cuba and Vietnam, most of Human existence, there has always been struggles between the powerful and the powerless. India stood up against British Imperialism and won. Nelson Mandela stood up, so did Millions of Black South Africans against apartied and eventually won. If what you claim is true, then there would be virtually no changes in all of human existence.


Now the USSR has gone there is nowhere a communist goverment can be set up without being destroyed by the US.

There is no such thing as a "communist" government but of course, any country that acts contrary to US interests will be attacked, just as there is economic sabotage going on in Cuba. A CIA agent recently confessed, that while in Cuba, he bribed a truck driver so he could put cement powder in school children's milk. They would puncture tyres, so that food would go off, there aim was to make people starve, so they would eventually overthrow Castro and US interests could move back in. But, whatever way you look at it, the US empire will only last so long . No empire lasts forever. Who is to say a Marxist revolution won't be the thing that destroys it ?


The only chance a communist goverment has is being democraticly voted into power in a country with nuclear arsenals. You think that the US would sit by and let any "communist" government of that strength be elected "democratically". They fund the opposition in Venezuela, they helped Yeltsin get elected in Russia, so the communists could not regain power. They funded the attacks the Italian Communist party in the 80's,so that they wouldn't win when they were a major force. They supported and backed the killing of Salvador Allende. They won't let it happen democratically, just as they wouldn't let it happen through revolution.

[DaCuBaN]

Do you think countries like the US will stand ideoly by and watch their investments abroad be overthrown

They won't have a choice - we brits are still owed you a veto over Egypt :angry: :lol:

[Dio]

I believe what Marx said in the communist manifesto, to be true to some extent. The prolitariat will rise up to the opressor. But in doing so the prolitariat will just create a whole other opressor.

Dune Dx... What do you mean it will never happen? Did it not happen in Russia? China? Vietnam? Cuba?

Are you blind?

[cubist]

WTF i fail to see this

[SittingBull47]

"Who said the U.S. will last forever? :huh:"

I guess people assume it will be around for quite a while (forever to many) because look at the Roman empire. The similarities between the republic of Rome and the Republic of America (the actual political classification) are striking and of no coincidence.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by Dune [email protected] 18 2004, 08:11 PM
Marx says that the proletariot will rise up and over through the bourgeis and destroy the class sytem.
Do you understand why he thought that?


This will not happen. Over time we have seen immense divides between countries the rich being in the North and the poor being in the South.

This isn't actually true. In many western countries, maybe more so in Europe, the working class are becoming more and more comfortable in their exploitation. I can not honestly say that the vast majority of working class people in the western world are becoming more poorer.


The North exploit the workers in the south and there is nothing the south can do about it

Yes there is. They can overthrow it. Exploitation is not logical and it is going on under the workers noses. They are not conscious of it. But remember, captialism as an economic, political and societal structure has only existed for 200 years maximum, and the currect structure has only existed for no more than 50 years. The feudal system existed for over five centuries before people realised it was illogical and moved to change it. This is also something that Marx said, which you have failed to mention.


They can not rise up against people that are in stronger positions than them.

Working class and oppressed people out number the ruling class at least 100,000 to one. They are not in a strong position. It just appears like that because they control the means of production and run our affairs. Remember, we allow them to do it to us. It is proof of just how week the ruling class really are when ever there is real dissent. Look how the ruling class react at such things like May Day or the G8 summits. These are not the actions of people who feel strong. They are the actions of people who are nervous and very afraid of loosing their power. Capitalism will plunge the ruling class into more and more fear because capitalism can not sustain itself. It will eventually run our of markets, dwindle resources to the point where people realize that the world is fucked up. It is just a cloak they have over peoples eyes. They hold it up trembling with fear that any minute they will drop it, and we will see exactly what is going on.


Do you think countries like the US will stand ideoly by and watch their investments abroad be overthrown.

No, but that is why our American comrades must build a movement to confront the American ruling class and demand it justifies itself. I imagine that any revolution will first occur in Europe, and the hope is that it will spread. If the movements have done the job then there is no reason for it to fail, even in the face of counter revolutionaries like the US. And again, if the comrades in the US have done their job right, when the revolution happens in Europe, they will be in a position to distract the american elite enough that their presence anywhere else will be greatly diminished. It is hard work, and there is alot of it do to before we get to this point. As AlwaysQuestion said, it may not happen in our life time. But we must lay the foundations for future generations who will see it happen.


Now the USSR has gone there is nowhere a communist goverment can be set up without being destroyed by the US.

The USSR was never communist, and remember that communism is a philosophy and theory to organize a society. It is not a guide to structure a government. Communist government is an oxymoron.


The only chance a communist goverment has is being democraticly voted into power in a country with nuclear arsenals.

The situation in the world is desperate and it makes everyone angry, but we must stay focused and objective. This solution will not bring about working class liberation. It will not end exploitation. We can not hope for second, third, fourth, fifth or in this case unimaginable place, simply to satisfy our own desires in achieving communism. Working class struggle is not about me and you, it is far more profoud than that. The struggle does not revolve around us, we revolve around it. We have to be objective and do what is right, not what is easiest. Working class and oppressed people will eventually realise what is going on. And when they do, they will move to change it. Just like the bourgeoisie destroyed feudelism and replaced it with liberal democracy. History changes, it is not solid. Things do not stay the same. It is simply a question of time. Lets use our time well. Build the movement!

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2004, 11:12 PM
What makes you so sure things are going to get bad enough for the conditions of revolution. Realistically capitalism will give major concessions when it is under threat.
This may well be true. But would the concessions fool you? they wouldnt fool me? This is the point of a movement. It must exist to make sure that people are not fooled by it either.

Capitalism can not sustain itself. As I said before, it can not last forever. Look around the world already, and it has only existed for 200 years. Many of our natural resources are set to run out, or cause major cut backs, in our life times. This will have a major effect on peoples psyches. When capitalism plunges into crisis, the movement must be big enough to monopolize on it, confronting it and forcing it to justify itself. People will ask questions, and we must be there to answer them. Eventually, history will get to a point where concessions just aren't enough anymore. People will want change. Fundamental and ever lasting change.

*breaks into song*

[Osman Ghazi]

What makes you so sure things are going to get bad enough for the conditions of revolution. Realistically capitalism will give major concessions when it is under threat.

The tsar gave a hell of a lot of concessions, but it didn't save him.

[Louis Pio]

This isn't actually true. In many western countries, maybe more so in Europe, the working class are becoming more and more comfortable in their exploitation. I can not honestly say that the vast majority of working class people in the western world are becoming more poorer.


Well people need to work more and more while not really getting the money for it. Maybe people look content. But underneed things are brewing. Try to talk with ordinary people about their worries. And quickly you will see what im talking about.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 10:06 PM
Well people need to work more and more while not really getting the money for it. Maybe people look content. But underneed things are brewing. Try to talk with ordinary people about their worries. And quickly you will see what im talking about.
I know all to well what peoples feelings are about their situations. I wasn't disputing that anyway. I was pointing out that many working people are not getting poorer, but are in fact becoming more comfortable.

[Louis Pio]

I was pointing out that many working people are not getting poorer, but are in fact becoming more comfortable.


It seems to be going the other way imo.

[GUTB]

There is massive and wide-spread discontent in the advanced Western world -- including America. However, we don't hear about it much if we go by mass media as a guide. As world capitalism exploits every corner of the globe, there is no where left for it to go. There are no more New Worlds loaded with slaves, exotic fruit and gold. Now it's simply a race to the bottom. Labor, in an advanced society, is the social fabric. What you do for a living defines you as a person, and how much you make determines your worth. Work is everything to a Westerner -- punching a clock each day, building social ties with co-workers, working a days work, getting paid, and going home to enjoy personal time. Day in and day out. The school system is all about making the youbng worker-in-training shut up and sit down. Follow the rules. Not working isn't a real option.

Capitalism has created a society of worker-insects. However, when capitalism begins to break down and feed off itself, this social fabric of labor is disrupted and people begin to lose their jobs on a mass scale. While comfortable in work, the Westerner is comfortable in life itself. When out of work, or underemployed, or constantly under the threat of unemployment with no relief or alternative in sight -- the Westerner becomes deeply disturbed and agitated. Once stirred into agitation, the Westerner will angry about himself for the cause, and the vast majorty will identify some aspect of society that is broken and they percieve to be the enemy of themselves and indeed to society and the world as a whole. The vast, vast majority blames the ruling class to some degree. Having identified the percieved problem, they look for resonance with the rest fo society -- and find exactly none with politicians, mass media, and the other elites. It is from here that worker bees feel disenfranchised from their rulers and elites. This grows and grows, until open rebellion occurs.

Many, many Westerners are actually communists but just aren't aware of it yet -- they haven't found a perfect resonance with what they see and hear around them and so try to identify with one group or another, but remain essentially unsatisfied and depressed. They simply are conditioned from birth to toe the line, speak softly, and shut up and take it. But those barriers will wear thin when society breaks down.

[DaCuBaN]

a wonderfully insightful post there GUTB. I was smiling and nodding as I read your words.


Many, many Westerners are actually communists but just aren't aware of it yet

I especially agree with you on that point - the number of people I speak to on a daily basis who share so many points of view with me, yet wouldn't dream of considering themselves opposed to the capitalist way of life - they are comfortable, and for them it works. If something isn't broken, why fix it?

[The Feral Underclass]

GUTB

Are you an anarchist by any chance?

[Dune Dx]

Wow I dont think Ive ever seen myself quoted so many times.

First I never said the USSR was communist but it did help communist movements
2nd what does it matter if the poor out number the rich this just makes it worse for the poor, they cant fight someone several thousand miles away if they strike then one of the other thousands of poor people will just take their place.
Do you people honestly believe if the Brittish empire had wanted to keep India a man who posed no threat to them would make them give it up - I suggest you look at the gandi threads.
Im not sure who said it but I agree that the proletariot will just set up a new system of oppression, but if there is a chance that it will work then we should do like ( forgotten the guys name ) said "Wait for the future, don't ruin the future"
is that your own quote?
and it is amzing how many people have communist views but would never call themselves communist

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by Dune [email protected] 20 2004, 05:22 PM
First I never said the USSR was communist but it did help communist movements
The USSR destroyed the communist movement. Ask anyone, even histoprians, intellectuals, teachers and politicians to identify a country with Communism and they will say the USSR, or China. Neither of these countries are communist and never have been. This has had a detromental effect on communism.


2nd what does it matter if the poor out number the rich this just makes it worse for the poor, they cant fight someone several thousand miles away if they strike then one of the other thousands of poor people will just take their place.

This dosn't make very much sense. Could you re-word it please.


Do you people honestly believe if the Brittish empire had wanted to keep India a man who posed no threat to them would make them give it up - I suggest you look at the gandi threads.

I started it mate. I am not advocating non-violence. If we are attacked we will defend ourselves. And we will do that the same way any other uprising or revolution has defended itself.

[Nas]

2nd what does it matter if the poor out number the rich this just makes it worse for the poor, they cant fight someone several thousand miles away if they strike then one of the other thousands of poor people will just take their place.


during the age of kings , the peasants revolted against the king , and eventually the peasants won.

[NYC4Ever]

So let me get this straight. Capatalism will fail as the working class gets bigger and bigger and when someone who's read Marx stands up and revolts against the ruling class they in turn end up a totaltarian regime much like the USSR, China, North Korea and even Cuba. So both are failed ideologies because man is corrupt. But we do share a common enemy and thats the EU and their wierd merger of socialism and capatalism. So the ruling elitist class of Europe is appeasing to the people in order to avoid a popular revolution, much like the Democratic party in America. The EU is gaining momentum and recieving praise from the masses and the corrupt UN. Generally people dont want communism as much as they dont want full fledged capatalism so they'll usually vote with the balance.

[Essential Insignificance]

during the age of kings , the peasants revolted against the king , and eventually the peasants won.

The peasants by no account ''won'' the aristocracy or the merging bourgeoisie did…that is to say, in the long run.


Capatalism will fail as the working class gets bigger and bigger

Insofar, there's alot more to it.


who's read Marx stands up and revolts against the ruling class

It will have nothing to do with the ''individuals'' whom read the works Marx…the proletarian will realize their wretchedness on their own concurrence…but it can be ''speeded'' up nonetheless.


and up a totaltarian regime much like the USSR, China, North Korea and even Cuba

That depends upon the material conditions and the proletarian as a amalgamated entirety.


So both are failed ideologies because man is corrupt

Man is not ''corrupt'' ''inherently''...material conditions make man ''corrupt''.

[NYC4Ever]

Like a child that grows up innocent and learns greed so does the world. When the venom of capatalism is in you its hard to get out. It would take years to wait for the capatalist nations to run their course until Marxist ideas are even taken into consideration. Oh but wait theres a wrench in the whole equation: Democratic Socialism. Much like what the sellout communist nations are doing and what the EU and Canada are thriving off of. Believe me I would love to see Communism work, if only the capacity of selfishness was not in us at all.
I mean you guys are on the brink of something revolutionary I believe. Good luck, though convincing the poisoned masses infected with capatalism. People are into that why fix it if its not broken phase. I believe in compassionate conservatism where the private sector hands back to thier communities, though even that is as much a fantasy as true Communism is right now. It is without force and ulitmate free will no matter how much you think its "dirty money". But, like I said we share a common enemy and thats the EU and their hypocrisy of a new system.

[cubist]

comrade with your help it will become that little bit easier stop saying i wish you luck if you want us to suceed help us. :hammer: :ph34r:

[NYC4Ever]

I would join you my friend. I really would. I'm not one of those cappies that totally hates Communism and can't stand it at all. I'm actually quite curious about it. I mean I still hold the dream of compassionate conservatism where the private sector contributes back their communities through simple moral judeo-Christian concept (doesn't have to be). But even that is as much a dream as true communism, because I dont trust any leader to seriously go through with it considering all of the failed attempts. The big difference is that my ideal is based on faith and free will. Yours is based on reason and force. Lol, hey, thats Chile's motto : Por La Razon o La Fuerza.
Give me some good readings though, to better understand why communism appeals to you, please.

[Dune Dx]

I dont put my trust in one leader thats why I think Communists should have dual or even larger leadership

[NYC4Ever]

I agree. I would never put my faith into one leader either.

[Dune Dx]

Because say you find this uncorruptable leader thats great and all but there going to die one day

[monkeydust]

Originally posted by Dune [email protected] 21 2004, 07:55 PM
I dont put my trust in one leader thats why I think Communists should have dual or even larger leadership
Or maybe, we should have no leaders at all.

Just a thought. :)

[NYC4Ever]

but i thought Che lives... :)

[Dune Dx]

Yeah but you need some leaders before goverment withers away

[NYC4Ever]

But thats where Communism usually falls off is the transitionary period.

[monkeydust]

Originally posted by Dune [email protected] 21 2004, 08:25 PM
Yeah but you need some leaders before goverment withers away
You're assuming that organisation, and direction can not be attained without 'strong' leadership.

This isn't necessarily the case.

It's perfectly possible for any 'transition' (in so far as one is needed) to be achieved by the proletariat itself, rather than by the "guiding" influence of a relatively small elite.

Communism cannot achieved until the workers realise that they can direct there own society through democratic means.

The proletariat should not be encouraged to instill "blind faith" in anyone, especially not a minority elite.

[NYC4Ever]

Why do you think this hasn't worked yet? Honest question.

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 10:48 PM
Why do you think this hasn't worked yet? Honest question.
Why what hasn't worked?