How is Castro bad? [Archive]

The Feral Underclass

16th April 2004, 08:45

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 11:02 PM
A lot of people call him an evil dictator, others call him their idol. I'm just wondering, what did Castro do to give himself such a bad reputation?
I dont think it's important to judge Castro based on western standards which are ultimatly bourgeois in thinking. We should judge him on revolutionary standards, and on the standards of communism.

He claims to be a communist. Well, if that is the case, he should justify himself as a communist and the best way to do that is to look at his actions. Are his actions inline with communist theory?

The revolution to begin with was never about achieving workers liberation. It was about overthrowing a US backed dictatorship. His "communist" party was never involved on ground level. Marx said "the act of the working class must be from the working class." It wasnt. He used guerilla fighters, many of them not working class, and indeed many of the not Cuban. Guevara wasn't even cuban, and he certainly wasnt working class. Since overthrowing Batista, Castro has made no attempts to hand over power to the workers. He was centralized, and bureaucratized and enforced the will of the state on to the workers, but he has not given them power.

Castro's intentions were never to hand over power to the workers. If that was the case, why were they not involved in the revolution, accept to be "liberated." If Castro is such a communist why does he oppress homosexuals? If he is such a communist why does the party elite live a luxurious life style while the people they were supposed to have liberated go hungry? If he is such a communist why does he embrace the Pope? If he is such a communist, why is he still in power?

Castro isnt a communist. He's an old man, who's going to die soon and realised what's the fucking point. He realised he can quite easily live in luxury and die that way. Is castro ever going to hand over power to the workers? Do the workers even understand what communism is? Cuba is one big mess, that will eventually go the same way Russia did and China is doing.

This Cubaists make apologise for this man? They make excuses for him? So the US has a trade embargo on him? Does that mean he cant give power back to the workers? No! Some people say that they have a great health service blah blah blah. So does the US, what's your point? So Castro has brought some social changes to Cuba, but who cares, he was never supposed to be a reformist. He was supposed to be a communist. People should stop making apologise for this man, who has done nothing for communism except show how corruptable and forgetful people are?

He is not evil, but he definatly is no idol to communism. Castro dosnt have a bad reputation within the revoltionary left, and I think that's more important than the bourgeois thinkers. People on the revolutionary left champion him as some kind of communist, saviour of the oppressed? he isnt? He's an old man who smokes cigars and hugs popes. He has parties and lives in a big house and gets waited on hand and foot. He betrayed his communist ideals, if he ever had them, a long time ago. Are we supposed to forget that because he pisses the US off? I think not!

Hate Is Art

16th April 2004, 10:22

The revolution to begin with was never about achieving workers liberation

Fidel wasn't a Communist until after the revolution, Raul and Che were the two main Communist's in the July 26 Movement.

He used guerilla fighters, many of them not working class, and indeed many of the not Cuban. Guevara wasn't even cuban, and he certainly wasnt working class.

Guevara was the only non-Cuban member of the movement. Allmost all of the great revolutionarys aren't from the working class. You can't hold it against him because he was born slightly better off then others. That's kinda like saying white people can't join civil rights marchs.

If Castro is such a communist why does he oppress homosexuals? If he is such a communist why does the party elite live a luxurious life style while the people they were supposed to have liberated go hungry?

You got any info on repressing homosexuals? or him living a luxurious lifestyle?
And Cubans aren't going Hungry, they may not have huge luxuries like the western countrys that we hate so much but they aren't starving.

If he is such a communist why does he embrace the Pope?

You attack Castro for attacking Homo-sexuals but he is free to attack the Church? Explain that logic please? Communism is about freedom, you should be free to worship what you want shouldn't you?

Castro isnt a communist. He's an old man, who's going to die soon and realised what's the fucking point. He realised he can quite easily live in luxury and die that way. Is castro ever going to hand over power to the workers?

RedStar is an "old man" can he not be a Communist? You just made that up, admit it, do you know for a fact he lives in luxury and decided to do so because he was just a faux communist and never really believed in it! I think Castro honestly care's for his people, far more then any other leader in any country in the world.

Wenty

16th April 2004, 10:28

are you a communist or what?
his reasons were to upholed the revolution

No, I'm not, and the last time I checked this isn't a communist board, its a "leftist community"

The Feral Underclass

16th April 2004, 10:38

Originally posted by Digital [email protected] 16 2004, 10:22 AM
Fidel wasn't a Communist until after the revolution, Raul and Che were the two main Communist's in the July 26 Movement.

He isnt a communist.

Guevara was the only non-Cuban member of the movement.

Wrong! Many resitence fighters came from Mexico and other southern american countries.

Allmost all of the great revolutionarys aren't from the working class. You can't hold it against him because he was born slightly better off then others. That's kinda like saying white people can't join civil rights marchs.

Agreed. But the point I was making was that communism calls for the working class to overthrow capitalism. It was not the working class. They were foreign fighters who were generally from middle class backgrounds. The working class were not involved, not even on a ground level.

You got any info on repressing homosexuals?

It's commonly known that he represses homosexuals. He kicked them all out of his country when he got to power. Further more... (http://www.datalounge.com/datalounge/news/record.html?record=20169)

"[No gay person could ever] embody the conditions and requirements of conduct that would enable us to consider him a true revolutionary, a true communist."
-Fidel Castro...Great leader of freedom... :rolleyes:

or him living a luxurious lifestyle?

Do you have any proof he dosnt. It's common sense. Of course he does. He is a head of state, all heads of state live in big houses and get fed posh food by waiters etc etc etc...Very communistic of him!

And Cubans aren't going Hungry, they may not have huge luxuries like the western countrys that we hate so much but they aren't starving.

Go to Cuba and see for yourself. Wasn't the Cuban government even saying that the trade embargo was starving the people of Cuba.

You attack Castro for attacking Homo-sexuals but he is free to attack the Church? Explain that logic please?

Homosexuality is somnething which exists and is real and is apart of peoples lives. It is what you are, much like people are black. Religion isnt real and it creates oppresion. Attacking religion is like attacking nazism. They both lie, they both oppress and both of them are diametrically opposed to workers liberation.

Anyway, I didnt attack him for being religious, I attacked him for embracing the pope and accepting the vatican. The archaic, reactionary insitution which condemns homosexuals, denies women the right to choose, opposes contraceptives and activly attacks communism....

Communism is about freedom, you should be free to worship what you want shouldn't you?

Whatever. But it your own home, in your own time. Believing in gods should not be tolerated as a societal force. It is no different to believing in pixies and we wouldnt accept that as a force in deciding how we live our lives. Freedom can only exist when religion dosnt.

RedStar is an "old man" can he not be a Communist?

Redstar hasnt sold out. Castro has.

You just made that up, admit it, do you know for a fact he lives in luxury and decided to do so because he was just a faux communist and never really believed in it!

Maybe he did believe in it, maybe he didnt. He certainly dosnt anymore. Maybe he dosnt have 5 jets, 59 sports cars, and 3 swimmingpools, but he certainly is not equal to the workers in his country.

I think Castro honestly care's for his people, far more then any other leader in any country in the world.

Fine. But that dosnt make him a communist.

Hate Is Art

16th April 2004, 11:02

He isnt a communist.

Yes He Is!

Wrong! Many resitence fighters came from Mexico and other southern american countries.

Che was the only non-cuban at the start of the revolution, is it wrong to help out comrades trying free people from a repressive dictator?

Agreed. But the point I was making was that communism calls for the working class to overthrow capitalism. It was not the working class. They were foreign fighters who were generally from middle class backgrounds. The working class were not involved, not even on a ground level.

It does, but how many middle class people do you know who are communist, it is ur duty to show them the way.

It's commonly known that he represses homosexuals. He kicked them all out of his country when he got to power. Further more...

Well that is wrong, and should be frowned upon, there is no defence for harboring homo-phobic attitudes.

Do you have any proof he dosnt. It's common sense. Of course he does. He is a head of state, all heads of state live in big houses and get fed posh food by waiters etc etc etc...Very communistic of him!

Stalin lived in a small two room house in the Kremlin, not all heads of states are greedy, I believe Castro isn't either. I reserve judgement until you have some hard facts.

Go to Cuba and see for yourself. Wasn't the Cuban government even saying that the trade embargo was starving the people of Cuba.

There is no famine in Cuban, the trade embargo just prevents them from having more food in plentiful quantity, but you have to remember Cuba is 3rd world country,and of all the 3rd world country it easily the best.

Homosexuality is somnething which exists and is real and is apart of peoples lives. It is what you are, much like people are black. Religion isnt real and it creates oppresion. Attacking religion is like attacking nazism. They both lie, they both oppress and both of them are diametrically opposed to workers liberation.

Anyway, I didnt attack him for being religious, I attacked him for embracing the pope and accepting the vatican. The archaic, reactionary insitution which condemns homosexuals, denies women the right to choose, opposes contraceptives and activly attacks communism....

Religion is equaly a part of peoples lives, as long as they aren't forcefully converting people I have no problem with it. Most Cuban's are Catholic, why try and take this away from them? Religion is a big part of their lives, it appears to be wrong to take away someone right to be homo-sexual but wrong to take away their right to practice their religion?

Whatever. But it your own home, in your own time. Believing in gods should not be tolerated as a societal force. It is no different to believing in pixies and we wouldnt accept that as a force in deciding how we live our lives. Freedom can only exist when religion dosnt

I don't understand why you can't accept people are Religious, we may not be, but people are, I don't understand how people can be gay, but they are, and I can accept that because it doesn't affect me. How can the working class worshipping God affect you?

Redstar hasnt sold out. Castro has.

How has Castro sold out?

Maybe he did believe in it, maybe he didnt. He certainly dosnt anymore. Maybe he dosnt have 5 jets, 59 sports cars, and 3 swimmingpools, but he certainly is not equal to the workers in his country.

Classless Society hasn't been achieved in Cuba yet, until then we will have to weight until everyone is equal.

Fine. But that dosnt make him a communist.

But he is a Communist. So he just set up a Socialist sytem in Cuba for a joke? He cares for his people so he trys to bring them equality and freedom through Communism.

The Feral Underclass

16th April 2004, 11:45

Originally posted by Digital [email protected] 16 2004, 11:02 AM
Yes He Is
Then you have a warped sense of what communism is.

Che was the only non-cuban at the start of the revolution, is it wrong to help out comrades trying free people from a repressive dictator?

You know for a fact that Che was the only non cuban in the entire revolutionary army? From what I read, many of Castros men came from Mexico.

Well that is wrong,

Not only wrong but contradictory if you claim to be a communist.

and should be frowned upon, there is no defence for harboring homo-phobic attitudes.

Attitudes? It isnt simply an attitude, its a state sponsered campaign of oppression. Frowned upon? Is that best you can do? It shouldnt be frowned upon, it should be fought against. Activly! and not condoned what so ever!

Stalin lived in a small two room house in the Kremlin, not all heads of states are greedy, I believe Castro isn't either. I reserve judgement until you have some hard facts.

Smuggled tapes show luxury life of Castro (http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/smCuggled.htm)

maybe, maybe not... (http://www.sptimes.com/2002/11/18/Worldandnation/_Castro_cam__enthrall.shtml)

These are bourgeois sources, and I havent seen the tapes. Judge for yourself...He may not be living the life style like a billionaire american, but he is definatly not living the humble life style you say he is.

I cant copy and paste anymore..... :blink:

The Feral Underclass

16th April 2004, 12:34

Originally posted by Digital [email protected] 16 2004, 11:02 AM
There is no famine in Cuban, the trade embargo just prevents them from having more food in plentiful quantity, but you have to remember Cuba is 3rd world country,and of all the 3rd world country it easily the best.
Just like any bourgeois country, yes. Not communist and with no forseable moves towards communism.

Religion is equaly a part of peoples lives, as long as they aren't forcefully converting people I have no problem with it. Most Cuban's are Catholic, why try and take this away from them? Religion is a big part of their lives, it appears to be wrong to take away someone right to be homo-sexual but wrong to take away their right to practice their religion?

People believing in something which dosnt exist is anti-thetical to achieving liberation. Religion should not be encouraged, but will in a communist society, disappear.

I don't understand why you can't accept people are Religious,

Because it isnt real. I dont accept religion anymore than I would accept someone who believed in little green pixies, or worshiped Smurfs.

I don't understand how people can be gay, but they are, and I can accept that because it doesn't affect me. How can the working class worshipping God affect you?

Because it seperates people from reality. It subjugates their will to an authority which is oppressive [and not real] and makes people believe they will go to heaven by working hard blah blah blah when actually they wont. And it is this world which we have to fight to make better.

Human beings are slaves to supersition and myths. They believe in these falacies because they dont have hope in their own lives and in changing society. We have to give them hope by breaking down this superstitions and lies and show them that this world can be heavenly. They dont have to wait until they die.

Classless Society hasn't been achieved in Cuba yet, until then we will have to weight until everyone is equal.

It's quite simple. You give pwoer to the working class basewd on communist principles and class exists no more...He's had 40 years to do it. Why hasnt he. Instead of pissing about with Russia and nuclear weapons or what ever he's been doing for 40 years, why didnt he have intense communist education and transfer power over to the workers. Why? Why didnt he do that? Because the US has an embargo? Bullshit. If he wanted to do it, he could have.

But he is a Communist. So he just set up a Socialist sytem in Cuba for a joke?

Take a definition of communism and put it next to castro and you will see they are not the same. The opposites in fact. I do not think he did it for a joke. he did it to overthrow batista and because guevara and raul convinced him it was good.

Class society will always exist in Cuba unless the working class now overthrow Castro and his government and set up workers councils. When castro dies, there will be no socialist cuba anymore. Many people in cuba even reject their old revolutionary ideals in favour for reform. Castro lost the revolution. he betrayed it. It's over in cuba. It's over unless the workers take control.

SittingBull47

16th April 2004, 13:52

I hated his views on homosexuals (i'm not sure what his standpoint is on them these days), but he was the figurehead of the revolution and the people needed a man like him to lead them into a new government. Everyone has their flaws, but i think he is a good leader.

Faceless

16th April 2004, 14:58

Because it isnt real. I dont accept religion anymore than I would accept someone who believed in little green pixies, or worshiped Smurfs.
So, would you endorse the repression of religion like in shall we say Tibet or the old Soviet Union? No? Castro has been tolerant of religion and we must be patient, seperating church and education but Castro does not go around evangelising people. Considering though that a majority of the world's population follows a religion, would you cut them from power? Because "Anarchist Tension" would be an ironic name if so.

You know for a fact that Che was the only non cuban in the entire revolutionary army? From what I read, many of Castros men came from Mexico.
I'm not going to say much here but the people of Cuba overwhelmingly supported Castro. The central cadre may have been quite colourful but the majority of the guerrillas were peasants from the various southern provinces. If your problem is with "vanguardism" (what ever that is) then just say it because the bulk of the army was indiginous even if it was planned or what in Mexico.

Attitudes? It isnt simply an attitude, its a state sponsered campaign of oppression. Frowned upon? Is that best you can do? It shouldnt be frowned upon, it should be fought against. Activly! and not condoned what so ever!
:rolleyes: People shouldn't be led to believe that Castro is homophobic though it looks like you believe the lies. From the horse's mouth:
http://www.metrog.com/travel/castro.html
You see, Cuba has had a long history of homophbia with homophobic laws existing in the Batista days (and previously). These laws have gone but there is still a problem in the national psyche. There are groups (though un-affiliated to the state) which go around harassing gays. Certain commentators (already having closed anti-Castro minds) go to Cuba and report upon these incidents and suddenly this is government planned (like everything that goes wrong in Cuba is). Let me tell you though, homophobia on the South American continet is rife but totally unreported on! The problem there is so much worse and is even institutionalised. There are also cases of racism which have led to wild accusations that the government is institutionally racist. All of these too are lies. You wouldn't suppose Castro is racist from these reports. I would have a few bones to pick with Castro but you certainly haven't put your finger on them.

shyguywannadie

16th April 2004, 17:36

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 04:57 AM
Castro also put people in jail for being homosexuals, for example the Cuban writer Reinaldo Arenas was jailed for being openly gay. Glory, can you justify that for upholding the revolution? I'd really love to see you try without on some level gay-bashing or put downs. tricky huh?
wasnt that during the 60's? when most countries particulaly the US was anti-gay?

elijahcraig

16th April 2004, 20:29

I can't believe you linked to http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/smCuggled.htm as proof of "Castro's life of luxury"! Come on, look at the site: http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/more.htm

It's topic for having the site is:
More Articles on the Totalitarian Preferences
of the Liberal Democratic Elite

Back to the Dictatorors Loved by Democratic Socialist and Liberals Page

Another fucking anarchist using bourgeois right-wing sources to "prove" Socialists wrong, to justify their utopian positions on real world events.

elijahcraig

16th April 2004, 20:34

Look at this, for instance:

Paul Johnson wrote in his treatise "Modern Times":
"The stages by which Lenin created the autocracy are worth describing in a little detail because they became the grim model, in essentials, for so many other regimes in the six decades which have followed. His aims were fourfold. First, to destroy all opposition outside the party; second, to place all power, including government, in party hands; third, to destroy al opposition within the party; fourth; to concentrate all power in the party in himself and those he chose to associate with him...

"Once Lenin had abolished the idea of personal guilt, and had started to 'exterminate' (a word he frequently employed) whole classes, merely on account of occupation or parentage, there was no limit to which this deadly principle might be carried. Might not entire categories of people be classified as 'enemies' and condemned to imprisonment or slaughter merely on account of the color of their skin, or their racial origins or, indeed, their nationality? There is no essential moral difference between class-warfare and race-warfare, between destroying a class and destroying a race. Thus the modern practice of genocide was born."

PAUL JOHNSON? He is a fanatic REAGANITE!

He also wrote the pro-Israel, anti-Socialist, “History of the Jews.” Chomsky in his “Hegemony or Survival” describes him as one of the intellectual elite who praised Reagan fanatically.

http://www.netforcuba.org/

That is the most right-wing site of Batista-supporting anti-Castroists I think you can find on the net.

http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/bayof.htm

Right. The “truth” about the Bay of Pigs.

Hahahah

ALSO:

Check:

Their views on how Chavez “destroyed” Venezuela

Democrats and Dictators

Artists, writers who defend Castro

This is PATHETIC.

The Feral Underclass

16th April 2004, 20:55

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 08:29 PM
I can't believe you linked to http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/smCuggled.htm as proof of "Castro's life of luxury"! Come on, look at the site: http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/more.htm

It's topic for having the site is:
More Articles on the Totalitarian Preferences
of the Liberal Democratic Elite

Back to the Dictatorors Loved by Democratic Socialist and Liberals Page

Another fucking anarchist using bourgeois right-wing sources to "prove" Socialists wrong, to justify their utopian positions on real world events.
Another fucking authotarian attempting to sling mud around...read the thread again sparky...and I quote

The Anarchist Tension

These are bourgeois sources...

I never claimed they were right, I never said they were believable...I said exactly the opposite...Pay attention before you start a crusade.

Pathetic indeed.

EDIT: Furthermore, I provided another article which refutes the accusations made that he is living a life of luxury AND the tapes are actually real...Have you seen them? Can you refute what is on them?

Are you trying to make a point or just prove me wrong so you can call me names.

The Feral Underclass

16th April 2004, 21:01

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 08:29 PM
to justify their utopian positions on real world events.
This dosnt even mean anything...Talk about abstract?

elijahcraig

16th April 2004, 21:01

Why not STOP posting links to right-wing sources?

And it is clear how you feel about Cuba, don't act like you're merely "giving different views."

QUOTE (elijahcraig @ Apr 16 2004, 08:29 PM)
to justify their utopian positions on real world events.

This dosnt even mean anything...Talk about abstract?

What the fuck are you talking about? You know exactly what I mean by that. Anarchists are Utopian, and they take utopian positions on Castro and other events.

The Feral Underclass

16th April 2004, 21:04

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 09:01 PM
Why not STOP posting links to right-wing sources?

And it is clear how you feel about Cuba, don't act like you're merely "giving different views."
The politics of the writer isnt relevant. The tapes are what is relevant. I provided two articles and said "make up your own mind" on what the tapes contain.

You really dont have a point here

The Feral Underclass

16th April 2004, 21:05

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 09:01 PM
Why not STOP posting links to right-wing sources?

And it is clear how you feel about Cuba, don't act like you're merely "giving different views."

QUOTE (elijahcraig @ Apr 16 2004, 08:29 PM)
to justify their utopian positions on real world events.

This dosnt even mean anything...Talk about abstract?

What the fuck are you talking about? You know exactly what I mean by that. Anarchists are Utopian, and they take utopian positions on Castro and other events.
A utopian position on castro? :blink:

elijahcraig

16th April 2004, 21:07

The politics of the writer isnt relevant. The tapes are what is relevant. I provided two articles and said "make up your own mind" on what the tapes contain.

You really dont have a point here...You just look stupid!

The politics of the writer are certainly relevant.

If you link to a right-wing source to “prove” something about Castro it isn’t valid.

And I don’t “believe” any of these sources on “tapes.” Here are your views on Cuba stated yourself:

Class society will always exist in Cuba unless the working class now overthrow Castro and his government and set up workers councils. When castro dies, there will be no socialist cuba anymore. Many people in cuba even reject their old revolutionary ideals in favour for reform. Castro lost the revolution. he betrayed it. It's over in cuba. It's over unless the workers take control.

That is what I mean by UTOPIAN. Why? Because the workers LOVE Castro, they don’t like the embargo and the economic situation it created.

The Feral Underclass

16th April 2004, 21:33

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 09:07 PM
The politics of the writer are certainly relevant.

If you link to a right-wing source to “prove” something about Castro it isn’t valid.

And I don’t “believe” any of these sources on “tapes.” Here are your views on Cuba stated yourself:

I am sorry if what I am trying to tell you doesnt fit in with the point you are trying to make but that's just tuff shit. Not once did I say the article was proof. I said that you would have to make up your own mind on whether what was on the tapes was correct. I said, make up your own mind. I said that I did not see the types. Not once, not once, did I say that anything in any of those articles was correct or valid. I even pointed out that they were both bourgeois sources.

That is what I mean by UTOPIAN. Why? Because the workers LOVE Castro, they don’t like the embargo and the economic situation it created.

That sentence wasnt utopian, it was pretty fucking grim. How can me saying that the workers disliking castro or rejecting communism be utopian? And how do you know they love castro. Because your Leninist newspapers say it is. Have you ever been to cuba? You're a joke mate. A joke!

Don't Change Your Name

17th April 2004, 00:06

I don't see him as a "communist", just a plain socialist/populist anti-imperialist dictator. Nowadays I'm starting to get that feeling, after thinking about it. Most sources that claim that cubans see yankeeland as their enemy and such things give me the impression (if they are true of course) that people is 50% brainwashed and 50% conscious of their country's situation.

I wouldn't be surprised if after he dies it all falls down and Cuba restores the "glorious free market". I'm not sure of how stable things are. It's all up to the people.

Fidel Castro

17th April 2004, 00:26

I have much respect for Dr Castro and the achievements that have come about in Cuba since the victory of his revolution in 1959. There is no such thing, and never has been such a thing, as a flawless ruler, however I truly believe that Fidel has genuine concern for the people of Cuba, and the wider world.

Sure, I could point to the obvious points that under the Castro regime the Cuban health service, education system and social security system have triumphed. I could also point to the aid given to foreign revolutionary movements, to war against South African apartheid in Angola.

Fidel did not start out as a socialist/communist, but I believe he both heavily influenced by Che and the Russians to the extent that he became socialist. I also believe that the revolution always had social justice and greater equality at it's heart.

Knowledge 6 6 6

17th April 2004, 01:52

I dont totally agree that Castro's bad, but Anarchist Tension brings up good points.

If one wants to see Castro's 'luxurious life'...watch Commandante, i think they show a bit of him in his garden...it's pretty lush to say the least.

Is he some commie? Nope. He lives a really good life vs. some inhabitants of Cuba...

I'm not sure Cuba will turn out like the USSR or China...b/c Castro, despite his convictions has made good points; you wont see police brutality or racism on the streets of Cuba. Which is very true.

Hate Is Art

17th April 2004, 11:28

TAT is an anarchist who hates any kind of vanguard of the revolution and dictatorship of the proletariat.

Red Skyscraper

17th April 2004, 23:41

I don't think Castro is so bad. I think he's a lot better than many other political leaders around the world, including the US President.

pandora

18th April 2004, 00:12

Originally posted by Digital [email protected] 16 2004, 10:22 AM

The revolution to begin with was never about achieving workers liberation

Fidel wasn't a Communist until after the revolution, Raul and Che were the two main Communist's in the July 26 Movement.

He used guerilla fighters, many of them not working class, and indeed many of the not Cuban. Guevara wasn't even cuban, and he certainly wasnt working class.

Guevara was the only non-Cuban member of the movement. Allmost all of the great revolutionarys aren't from the working class. You can't hold it against him because he was born slightly better off then others. That's kinda like saying white people can't join civil rights marchs.

If Castro is such a communist why does he oppress homosexuals? If he is such a communist why does the party elite live a luxurious life style while the people they were supposed to have liberated go hungry?

You got any info on repressing homosexuals? or him living a luxurious lifestyle?
And Cubans aren't going Hungry, they may not have huge luxuries like the western countrys that we hate so much but they aren't starving.

If he is such a communist why does he embrace the Pope?

You attack Castro for attacking Homo-sexuals but he is free to attack the Church? Explain that logic please? Communism is about freedom, you should be free to worship what you want shouldn't you?

Castro isnt a communist. He's an old man, who's going to die soon and realised what's the fucking point. He realised he can quite easily live in luxury and die that way. Is castro ever going to hand over power to the workers?

RedStar is an "old man" can he not be a Communist? You just made that up, admit it, do you know for a fact he lives in luxury and decided to do so because he was just a faux communist and never really believed in it! I think Castro honestly care's for his people, far more then any other leader in any country in the world.
Sorry I'd have to contradict that knowing recent Cuban refugees who even though they escaped a few years ago still eat like starved dogs, and other samples of people who were jailed for stealing milk for their children I would have to go against that theory.
No they weren't starved to death, but food was short, end of story.
The embargo did have a lot to do with that esp. in the 90's after the gravy train [with many conditions ] of Soviet support dwindled.
Cuba has a great system of education, I like that young people take time off their studies to work in social services, I think this should be done in the U.S. I think many of the social policies of Castro were good, but he also made a lot of mistakes.
Not learning from those mistakes does nothing to help the Revolution.
Life in the US is fucked right now, end of story, haves have nots
But Cuba has it's problems too.
ie. what's wrong with young people going to night clubs?
The Cuban government is very prejudical against gays and lesbians, the USSR had a bad track record towards African Americans who went there too. Jokes against male homosexuals esp. were prevelant in the society prior to the Revolution and still are today. Supposedly the greatest insult one can give is too call someone a mericon.
Morality squads who judge peoples actions always end up being abused.
I have not seen too many good examples of authoritative communism in practice, I'm a liberatarian in that respect.
Anytime people are imprisoned without proper cause there is a problem.
Still Castro has done a lot of good things as well and has stuck by his ideology which is partially communist longer than I've been alive, people suffer less there than in other countries in Central America.

pandora

18th April 2004, 00:12

If Castro is such a communist why does he oppress homosexuals? If he is such a communist why does the party elite live a luxurious life style while the people they were supposed to have liberated go hungry?

You got any info on repressing homosexuals? or him living a luxurious lifestyle?
And Cubans aren't going Hungry, they may not have huge luxuries like the western countrys that we hate so much but they aren't starving.

Sorry I'd have to contradict that knowing recent Cuban refugees who even though they escaped a few years ago still eat like starved dogs, and other samples of people who were jailed for stealing milk for their children I would have to go against that theory.
No they weren't starved to death, but food was short, end of story.
The embargo did have a lot to do with that esp. in the 90's after the gravy train [with many conditions ] of Soviet support dwindled.
Cuba has a great system of education, I like that young people take time off their studies to work in social services, I think this should be done in the U.S. I think many of the social policies of Castro were good, but he also made a lot of mistakes.
Not learning from those mistakes does nothing to help the Revolution.
Life in the US is fucked right now, end of story, haves have nots
But Cuba has it's problems too.
ie. what's wrong with young people going to night clubs?
The Cuban government is very prejudical against gays and lesbians, the USSR had a bad track record towards African Americans who went there too. Jokes against male homosexuals esp. were prevelant in the society prior to the Revolution and still are today. Supposedly the greatest insult one can give is too call someone a mericon.
Morality squads who judge peoples actions always end up being abused.
I have not seen too many good examples of authoritative communism in practice, I'm a liberatarian in that respect.
Anytime people are imprisoned without proper cause there is a problem.
Still Castro has done a lot of good things as well and has stuck by his ideology which is partially communist longer than I've been alive, people suffer less there than in other countries in Central America.

Hate Is Art

18th April 2004, 09:54

I never said Cuba was perfect, far from it, but it is the best Socialist Nation on earth and easily the best 3rd world country.

We should be supporting Castro not attacking him.

Ortega

18th April 2004, 14:54

I've usually defended Cuba (though not always on this board), but after some recent research I don't think I'll ever be able to do it again.

All the bad things happen in Cuba just as you are saying they do (homosexual repression, etc.) but the good things that you claim "balance Cuba out" simply do not exist.

Cuba's education system is terrible. The literacy rate of Cuba is so-so. It's absolutely terrible compared to the rates of many other countries. Sure, the literacy rate in Cuba today is better than the literacy rate under Batista, but I'd reccomend that you look at some other Latin American countries during that time period. No country in Latin America had any sort of "high" literacy rate at that time.

As for the healthcare system, it's even worse. Europeans jet in for almost free plastic surgery in Cuba's hospitals every summer. Meanwhile, real Cubans dying of easily-curable illnesses are told that the hospitals "can't afford" to treat their illnesses (the hospital staff is too busy tending to the rich Europeans <_<).

NOTHING is going right in Cuba today. I respect Castro for holding out against the U.S. for so long, and I'll certainly admit that Cuba has done relatively well merely surviving under such great pressure, but Castro can't run a country. It's as simple as that!

Castro has become (or maybe he always was?) a power-hungry megalomaniac who cares for no one but himself. He spouts leftist ideology only to give his people the illusion that they are living in an idyllic worker's paradise. His words mean nothing. They are empty words meant to give the Cuban people and the world the false image of Cuba as a perfectly functioning Socialist society, and most importantly to keep himself in power.

I know that Castro was an improvement over Batista. I know that Castro set out to "free the Cuban people from Batista." I know that a few of you will jump on me and call me a Batista-lover. To clarify, I'm not. But I think the quote that best sums all of this up is the one in my signature:

"To change masters is not to be free."

Think about it.

Hate Is Art

18th April 2004, 15:51

Cuba's education system is terrible. The literacy rate of Cuba is so-so. It's absolutely terrible compared to the rates of many other countries. Sure, the literacy rate in Cuba today is better than the literacy rate under Batista, but I'd reccomend that you look at some other Latin American countries during that time period. No country in Latin America had any sort of "high" literacy rate at that time

Cuba has 95% Literacy, thats almost as high as any western country.

Castro has become (or maybe he always was?) a power-hungry megalomaniac who cares for no one but himself. He spouts leftist ideology only to give his people the illusion that they are living in an idyllic worker's paradise. His words mean nothing. They are empty words meant to give the Cuban people and the world the false image of Cuba as a perfectly functioning Socialist society, and most importantly to keep himself in power.

I have to disagree here, I think Castro genuinely cares for his people.

Fidel Castro

18th April 2004, 16:03

Cuba's education system is terrible

I'm afriad you would be contradicted here by the United Nations which has openly stated in recent times that Cuba has the best education system in Latin America. The main problem with the Cuban education system is lack of resources. Pens, pencils, computer equipment, paper and other items cannot be imported from the United States, but have to be purchased from further afield at great expense.

The literacy rate of Cuba is so-so

I would not call 96% literacy rate (United Nations figures) so-so.

As for the healthcare system, it's even worse

Again the United Nations summery goes against your rather wild and unfounded claim, again Cuba has been named as having the best health service in Latin America. Again also, lack of resources is the main problem.

real Cubans dying of easily-curable illnesses are told that the hospitals "can't afford" to treat their illnesses

This is quite simply bullshit. Cuba has a very low infant mortality rate, and has recently been presented with an award for having very low tuberculosis rates. Vaccines are as common in Cuba as any developed nation.

the hospital staff is too busy tending to the rich Europeans

I'm going to Cuba this summer, and I will also be visiting a Cuban hospital as part of the trip, so I will check myself the state of hospitals. If I were to expect free treatment in a Cuban hospital why is it that I have been asked to take out insurance before going there and also been warned that if I do not take out insurance I can expect to pay around $300 per day for a bed plus medical costs?

I know that Castro was an improvement over Batista

Vast improvement.

"To change masters is not to be free."

Castro does not have absolute power, he is subject to the constitution which states that he can be called into question by the Cuban parliament, he also has no influence in elections as to which candidates are nominated.

Fidel Castro

18th April 2004, 16:06

perception

18th April 2004, 16:32

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2004, 11:06 AM
Castro does not have absolute power, he is subject to the constitution which states that he can be called into question by the Cuban parliament, he also has no influence in elections as to which candidates are nominated.
That's bullsh¡t, he's beyond reproach. When he speaks in parliament no one dares debate him. He's a demagogue. Everything else you said was on point, but that was just baseless.

Read a book called "People's Power", it's the best I've found about Cuba's parliament.

Fidel Castro

18th April 2004, 16:45

That's bullsh¡t, he's beyond reproach. When he speaks in parliament no one dares debate him. He's a demagogue. Everything else you said was on point, but that was just baseless.

He is a quote from another source:

Any one of the deputies to Cuba's parliament, including Fidel Castro, are subject to recall at any time and must by law report back to mass meeting in their constituency once every six months.
If Castro is such a dictator, why did he receive such overwhelming support in the elections? Why is it also that his position as the country's President is decided by parliament and that members of his government are also voted in by parliament?
Here are some essential facts about the 1993 Elections to the National Assembly.

The Cuban elections were the occasion for a massive show of resistance and unity in face of the US blockade.
99% of the electorate voted
7% of the ballots were spoiled.
Of the 589 deputies, 80% of them were elected for the first time. Their average age is 43.
77% are men and 23% are women
59 of the deputies are peasants or agricultural workers.
46 are industrial or manual workers.
23 are trades union leaders.
25 are intellectual, artists and journalists.
29 are teachers and specialists, 10 are secondary and university student leaders.

perception

18th April 2004, 16:59

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2004, 11:45 AM

Any one of the deputies to Cuba's parliament, including Fidel Castro, are subject to recall at any time and must by law report back to mass meeting in their constituency once every six months.
If Castro is such a dictator, why did he receive such overwhelming support in the elections? Why is it also that his position as the country's President is decided by parliament and that members of his government are also voted in by parliament?
Here are some essential facts about the 1993 Elections to the National Assembly.

The Cuban elections were the occasion for a massive show of resistance and unity in face of the US blockade.
99% of the electorate voted
7% of the ballots were spoiled.
Of the 589 deputies, 80% of them were elected for the first time. Their average age is 43.
77% are men and 23% are women
59 of the deputies are peasants or agricultural workers.
46 are industrial or manual workers.
23 are trades union leaders.
25 are intellectual, artists and journalists.
29 are teachers and specialists, 10 are secondary and university student leaders.
I know all of that, it is irrelevant. I never said anything about the Assembly, I believe those elections are relatively free and fair and democratic. But Castro stands above Parliament. If you disagree, show me one instance in which parliament has publically disagreed with Castro or voted against his initivatives.

Akasha

18th April 2004, 17:36

Even if Castro lived in a shack and rode a bicycle to work the west would still find some way to criticize him. We're brainwashed to believe that we are first world and we are right. Just because Cubans do not live the same lifestyle as us then they must be poor and hungry. They don't have X-Box's so Castro must be a monster.
Castro made homophobic comments at a time when it was not accepted to be homosexual in any part of the world. Yes we like to believe that leftists are accepting of everything but how many times on this website do ppl call someone "gay" or say that something is "gay" and mean bad. We all have biases but that is no reason to condemn him.
I think he has done his best to improve the lives of the Cuban people. He is not perfect and has made mistakes but it is certainly better than having the U$ run Cuba.

Fidel Castro

18th April 2004, 17:57

Some people have to remember that Cuba does not function simply at the hands of Fidel Castro, but that there are a collection of advisors and ministers who hold significant power and influence over Cuban policy.

Fidel's streangths are as a soldier, speaker, leader, tactition, idealist and diplomat. Fidels main area of weakness appears to be in economics.

But Castro stands above Parliament.

Only to the extent that he does not have to follow the advice of parliament, which goes for most world leaders. He is also at an advantage to the extent that he has parliament on his side in the face of US aggression and defence of the revolution, which is by no means a bad thing.

Fidel is simply one man, he is not immune to the oppinions of parliament or society. One man cannot keep himself in power without the support of the people and/or the parliament and/or the military.

Revolt!

18th April 2004, 18:13

Castro is better than most, worse than some.

Fidelbrand

18th April 2004, 19:20

I don't why some people condemn him for staying in power for 40 years. If he has kept his country improving, then why stick to that low-level democratic shit that is fueled by capitalism?

I do not oppose to democracy, but liberal democracy is just a past -time chippie play thing for the worse-off to elect people who can't do shit to improve the grassroots' lives (given the constraints of capitalism ----> MARKET ORIENTED ECONOMIES..ETC)

Fidel Castro

18th April 2004, 22:51

I don't why some people condemn him for staying in power for 40 years. If he has kept his country improving, then why stick to that low-level democratic shit that is fueled by capitalism?

The anti-Castro brigade do not care how Cuba has improved under Castro, or the fact that a major factor in Cuba's poverty is the US embargo. They count up how often elections are held and quote a few baseless stories spewed out from Miami and comfortab;y make their asessments from there.

Ortega

18th April 2004, 23:05

I would not call 96% literacy rate (United Nations figures) so-so.
Cuba's Literacy Rate: 96%
Jamaica's Literacy Rate: 91%
The Bahamas' Literacy Rate: 97%
Dominica's Literacy Rate: 94%
Grenada's Literacy Rate: 98%
Mexico's Literacy Rate: 92%
Belize's Literacy Rate: 94%

Look at these figures! You often use Cuba's literacy rate to show how "advanced" Cuba is. But these other Caribbean and Latin American countries (though they are not by any means perfect) have higher or almost equal literacy rates. And none of these countries suffer from the human-rights issues that Cuba seems to have.

Again the United Nations summery goes against your rather wild and unfounded claim, again Cuba has been named as having the best health service in Latin America. Again also, lack of resources is the main problem.
You want resources?

"If we limit the definition of health to a decrease in child mortality, longer life expectancy, primary healthcare, and the creation of research and biotechnological institutes, then Cuba is the image of socialist success. However, if we talk about the real meaning of health and delve into all of the aspects that affect man as a social being, then there is no health in Cuba, and the degradation in the quality of life of the Cuban people is the only thing that socialism has achieved."

http://64.21.33.164/CNews/y98/nov98/19e1.htm (by a Cuban journalist)

Look anywhere. It's not all about statistics, you know.

Castro does not have absolute power, he is subject to the constitution which states that he can be called into question by the Cuban parliament, he also has no influence in elections as to which candidates are nominated.
But you know that the parliament would never call Fidel "into question," and if anyone did, I guarantee you that they would live to regret it.

I'd say that Mr. Castro has just about absolute power in Cuba.

And what about Castro's little problem with dissidents? I have to include another quote by the original Cuban freedom fighter, Jose Marti:

"Only oppression should fear the full exercise of freedom."

Would you like to live in a country where this (http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y01/nov01/27e1.htm) can happen?

BuyOurEverything

18th April 2004, 23:21

You want resources?

"If we limit the definition of health to a decrease in child mortality, longer life expectancy, primary healthcare, and the creation of research and biotechnological institutes, then Cuba is the image of socialist success. However, if we talk about the real meaning of health and delve into all of the aspects that affect man as a social being, then there is no health in Cuba, and the degradation in the quality of life of the Cuban people is the only thing that socialism has achieved."

http://64.21.33.164/CNews/y98/nov98/19e1.htm (by a Cuban journalist)

Look anywhere. It's not all about statistics, you know.

I read that three time and I still don't have a fuckin clue what he's trying to say. "If you look at the actual facts and statistics, Cuba has a excellent health care system, but if you ignore the facts and simply make up random semi-coherant bullshit that doesn't even make sense, then Cuba has a horrible health care system and everyone is oppressed!"

By the way, nice source. http://www.cubanet.org/cubanews.html

Would you like to live in a country where this can happen?

:lol: :lol: :lol: I could hardly finish that I was laughing so hard. That story, and that entire site for that matter, is complete bullshit.

Anyways, if you think Castro is a communist, you are very misguided. He probably does care about his people, and Cuba is one of the better countries in the world despite the blocade. Castro does have massive support of the people, although that is largely due to the fact that there is no legitimate opposition to speak of.

Ortega

18th April 2004, 23:31

That story, and that entire site for that matter, is complete bullshit.

What about these?

http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-cub/index

http://hrw.org/doc/?t=americas&c=cuba (especially this (http://hrw.org/press/2002/04/cuba0425.htm) :( )

And here (http://www.cubafreepress.org/art/cubap990401e.html)'s a "better" source for information on the penalties given to one caught simply buying or selling beef in Cuba.

BuyOurEverything

18th April 2004, 23:50

And here's a "better" source for information on the penalties given to one caught simply buying or selling beef in Cuba.

First, it's not 'simply buying or selling beef,' it's illegally buying or selling beef on the black market. This system is in place to make sure that everyone gets a share of beef, not just rich people who can afford to buy it on the black market. Second, the guy in that story was not buying or selling beef, he was cooking it, and I'm curious why the police were in his house in the first place. Sounds like bullshit.

And by the way, you'd have alot more credibility if you didn't quote from Miami mafia websites.

What about these?

Human rights watch appears pretty biased. I prefer Amnesty International, although no orginization is perfect. Anyways, Cuba has committed quite a few human rights, and they should be condemned. However, if you look at Amnesty International, Cuba has 123 violations, compared to 1065 by the US. Also, Cuba has been the victim of a tremendous amount of terrorism, and the US government pays people to become dissidents. It can only be expected that the government would imprison dissidents.

I'd also like to see you defend the accusation you made regarding Cuba's health system.

And what was your source for the literacy rates?

Lefty

19th April 2004, 01:13

Castro is bad because he violates human rights. However, I have a certain measure of respect for the man because of his defiance of much stronger forces. I don't blame the poverty of Cuba on him, that is as much the U.S' fault as it is his. Ending the sanctions would help the situation a lot. Also, democratic elections would be cool, as I fully support a populace's right to self-determination on the matter of government.

Fidel Castro

19th April 2004, 01:21

Cuba's Literacy Rate: 96%
Jamaica's Literacy Rate: 91%
The Bahamas' Literacy Rate: 97%
Dominica's Literacy Rate: 94%
Grenada's Literacy Rate: 98%
Mexico's Literacy Rate: 92%
Belize's Literacy Rate: 94%

This proves nothing except that these countries also have good literacy rates. For a nation under embargo and which has suffered near economic collapse I would consider these figures promising.

And none of these countries suffer from the human-rights issues that Cuba seems to have.

Miami terrorists, CIA stooges, sabatuers and spies brake the law, are tried and imprisoned. Those who dabble in the black market, which is mostly only available to the dollar elite and denies revenue to the Cuban treasury should be punished. Those who wish to leave Cuba to join the Miami terrorist mob should not be allowed to do so legally.

If we limit the definition of health to a decrease in child mortality, longer life expectancy, primary healthcare, and the creation of research and biotechnological institutes, then Cuba is the image of socialist success.

At the end of the day it is the basics of how many lives are saved that counts, and in this respect Cuba is a success. The United States is the world's major manufacturor of drugs and medical equipment, and Cuba is under US blockade. Hospitals are forced to import supplies from further afield, and so medicines and vaccines are considered rightly more importaint than luxury beds and other non-essentual items.

I'd say that Mr. Castro has just about absolute power in Cuba.

Yes indeed, Fidel must be some sort of God if he can afford not to be influenced in any way by the Cuban parliament and population. You seriously believe that one man can single-handedly hold power over a population of 11 million? Do you not think that perhaps his government have significant powers and that the parliament/population influence Cuban policy. No leader is immune and never has been immune to the oppinions of the masses.

As for your source, the so-called Cubanet, well it is obvious from all the totally biased stories that it cannot be classed as a non-biased and independant source. I especially had to laugh at this utter trash:

[/QUOTE]The United States suspected for some time that Cuba was trying to develop a bioweapons capacity, but did not go public with the allegations in part because of doubts about the intelligence now blamed on a Cuban spy in the Defense Department, U.S. officials tell United Press International.[QUOTE] :lol:

perception

19th April 2004, 02:55

Originally posted by ¡Ortega!@Apr 18 2004, 06:05 PM

I would not call 96% literacy rate (United Nations figures) so-so.
Cuba's Literacy Rate: 96%
Jamaica's Literacy Rate: 91%
The Bahamas' Literacy Rate: 97%
Dominica's Literacy Rate: 94%
Grenada's Literacy Rate: 98%
Mexico's Literacy Rate: 92%
Belize's Literacy Rate: 94%

Look at these figures! You often use Cuba's literacy rate to show how "advanced" Cuba is. But these other Caribbean and Latin American countries (though they are not by any means perfect) have higher or almost equal literacy rates. And none of these countries suffer from the human-rights issues that Cuba seems to have.

Jamaica, The D.R., and Mexico don't have as many human rights violations as Cuba? Is that a joke?

Hate Is Art

19th April 2004, 09:29

Thats what I was going to say,

and about the beef thing, are you a communist? If so why should one guy have more then another? sure the law is a bit petty but it's there to keep Communism in Cuba by preventing huge gaps in living standards.

Did you read in the story where it mentiond Cuba's "dwindling cattle herds" If Cuba is running low on beef and some twat is out there stealing cattle to feed his greedy little face he deserves to be in prison.

Fidel Castro

19th April 2004, 12:05

There is also currently a severe drought in the Eastern Provinces of Cuba, especially around Camaguey. It has been reported that many cattle have died due to this.

Ortega

19th April 2004, 13:44

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 02:55 AM
Jamaica, The D.R., and Mexico don't have as many human rights violations as Cuba? Is that a joke?
Not to get too technical on you:

#1. Dominica (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/do.html) is not the same country as the Dominican Republic (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/dr.html). I would hope that you would know that.

#2. Compare Jamaica and Mexico to Cuba! They have crime, but you don't read every day in the newspaper "Jamaican President imprisons 10 more writers" or "Another artist 'dissapears' in Mexico City after speaking out against Fox."

#3. What about the other countries on that list?! There are quite a few others without any sort of human rights issues.

perception

19th April 2004, 14:44

Originally posted by ¡Ortega!@Apr 19 2004, 08:44 AM

#1. Dominica (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/do.html) is not the same country as the Dominican Republic (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/dr.html). I would hope that you would know that.

It's a tiny British Commonwealth near Trinidad. I guess you learn something new everyday.

Jamaica and Mexico have some of the highest levels of political corruption and violence in the hemisphere. Human rights violations extend far beyond the realm of imprisoning dissidents. You don't read about Castro imprisoning 10 artists a day either, he imprisoned 75 US-financed dissidents a year ago and nobody will shut up about it.

Ortega

19th April 2004, 15:39

UN Condemns Cuba on Human Rights (http://www.falkland-malvinas.com/Detalle.asp?NUM=3539)

You're going to claim that all the dissidents were 'U.S. Sponsored Miami Worms' now? I was expecting that.. But why don't you look at a few of these (from Amnesty International). Oh, and click the links:

• Rolando Jiménez Posada, 33, director of the Democratic Human Rights Center in Isla de Pinos. Among his previous busts: While peacefully commemorating the anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights on Dec. 10, 2001, he and several others were reportedly beaten by police, shoved into police cars and dumped in remote areas.

Arrested and imprisoned on April 25, 2003, Jiménez Posada is still being held without charges, but he may be accused of desacato (disrespect) and espionaje (espionage) for writing anti-government slogans on public buildings (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=6574&st=0&#entry76994) (or try this link (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=6517)).

Amnesty notes that at his prison in the Ministry of the Interior headquarters in Nueva Gerona, ``An official there reportedly told his wife and mother of their 4-year-old son that if she abandoned her husband, she would get economic help and a good job.''

• Rafael Millet Leyva, 33, president of the Martin Luther King Civic Resistance Movement in Isla de Pinos, arrested March 21, 2003, is being held without charges in Guayabo Prison, Isla de la Juventud. When his home was searched in March 2003, officials of the Department of State Security and the police (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2478&st=0) confiscated such incriminating books and documents as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and he was taken away.

Go to http//www.amnesty.org for more names. I don't have time to give any more here.

How long do you think any of you would survive in Castro's Cuba?

Hampton

19th April 2004, 17:00

In the same light, there was a guy who was arrested for writing "Down with Fidel" and "Death to the Dictator" on a school, you gotta be a class act to deface a school by the way, and was arrested and released the same day.

http://www.sigloxxi.org/Archivo/regina.htm

But I'm sure for every case there's another just like it where the opposite happened.

Ortega

19th April 2004, 18:01

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 05:00 PM
In the same light, there was a guy who was arrested for writing "Down with Fidel" and "Death to the Dictator" on a school, you gotta be a class act to deface a school by the way, and was arrested and released the same day.

http://www.sigloxxi.org/Archivo/regina.htm

But I'm sure for every case there's another just like it where the opposite happened.
Of course, by Genghis's logic that article would be 'shit,' as it comes from that 'Miami mafia' site CubaNet.

Not to be bitter or anything.. :rolleyes:

BuyOurEverything

19th April 2004, 21:42

#2. Compare Jamaica and Mexico to Cuba! They have crime, but you don't read every day in the newspaper "Jamaican President imprisons 10 more writers" or "Another artist 'dissapears' in Mexico City after speaking out against Fox."

True, you don't often read about Mexico or Jamaica's human rights abuses. Do you honestly think this is because they don't exist? I'm not trying to claim that Cuba hasn't commited human rights abuses, I'm trying to say that nearly every country in the world has, some commit less, but many (including the US) have commited far more than Cuba.

#3. What about the other countries on that list?! There are quite a few others without any sort of human rights issues.

While I realize you were only trying to select latin American countries with high literacy rates, if you honestly and objectively want to compare human rights abuses, you should use a more extened list.

Fidel Castro

19th April 2004, 23:26

If you examine the Amnesty International website, it is easy to see that every nation is ander criticism for some degree of human right's abuses, including the UK and US.

Here are two quotes from Fidel himself:

"I would have absolutely no moral right to be speaking here if a single Cuban had been murdered by the revolution....if there were a single death squad in Cuba, if a single Cuban had been vanished or if a single person in our country had been tortured."

"I am not claiming that our country is a perfect model of equality and justice. I t was some time before we descovered that marginality and racial discrimination are not things that one gets rid of with a law."

Cuba is a nation under constant open and secret attack from the US which includes the sponsorship of dissidents, terrorists and so called pre-democratic groups. The Cuban regime is understandably wary of allowing too-much open criticism which could, even though perhaps expressed by a minority, provide fuel for the continuation of the US blockade and dirty war.

Just as I would be frowned upon for standing in New York calling for Al-Quieda to commit another attack, so those who voice support for the Miami terrorists and US policy are frowned upon.

Salvador Allende

20th April 2004, 02:20

Fidel has watched one of his close friends die from the US sabotaging his state. I think that certainly has an effect. Look at the conditions in Cuba compared with other countries in Latin America. Cuba is better in pretty much every way. Fidel isn't bad at all.

The Feral Underclass

20th April 2004, 08:48

As I said before, we, as communists, can not judge Castro by world standards. The world is predominantly bourgeois and capitalist. So Cuba has a better education system than Jamaica, so Cuba has a better health Service than Mongolia. Who cares? By comparison to other bourgeois leaders he is mildly better. But he was never supposed to be a bourgeois leader.

We have to judge Castro based on what he claims to be, and how that has affected the way he has goverend etc. He says that he is a communist. If that is the case then why are homosexuals oppressed. Why does the state of Cuba exist? Why has he retained power for so long? Why are the working class not incontrol of the means of production?

I don't think there is any relevance in saying, he is better than so and so, he has managed to achieve so and so concessions. He claims to be a communist, yet he has done nothing in the last forty years to achieve communism. I do not believe he is a communist. And that is how we should judge him. He is not a communist, so we should not support him anymore than we would support Bush, Blair or Chavez.

Hiero

20th April 2004, 09:22

Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 20 2004, 08:48 AM
Why does the state of Cuba exist? Why has he retained power for so long? Why are the working class not incontrol of the means of production.
Yeah im with oyou on this why isnt cuba living in a fairy land, why dont they ignore the fact that U.S.A is trying to destroy, why dont they just forgot the fact they have to trade with capitalist countries.

Im with you TAT Cuba should be idiotic and unrealistic as can be who carea about protect the people agaisn counter revolution who cares about protecting the socialist state.

The Feral Underclass

20th April 2004, 09:38

Originally posted by comrade [email protected] 20 2004, 09:22 AM
why dont they just forgot the fact they have to trade with capitalist countries.

why dont they ignore the fact that U.S.A is trying to destroy

The US aren't threatened by Cuba. If they were they would have invaded and destroyed him. They just think he's a joke.

why dont they just forgot the fact they have to trade with capitalist countries....be who carea about protect the people agaisn counter

What has this got to do with anything?

Im with you TAT Cuba should be idiotic and unrealistic

There is nothing unrealistic and idiotic about anything i said. Would you care to elaberate?

who cares about protecting the socialist state.

Fuck the socialist state!

Hiero

20th April 2004, 10:56

What you said was that Cuba should skip the socialist state and totaly ignore the rest of the world, and you think this will make communism.

I cant see why your blaiming Castro for doing the impossible of creating communism in 40 years, while the world stays the way it is Cuba will stay that way.

The Feral Underclass

20th April 2004, 11:29

read a book about anarchism..

Ortega

20th April 2004, 13:49

You're right TAT. You're absolutely right.

There are plenty of arguments against Castro, but end the end it all comes down to this - Castro is not a communist.

I was talking not too long ago to one of Castro's best friends from college. He lives in New York now - no hard feelings against Castro, he left several years before Castro's forces took Havana.

The point this man (who shall remain nameless) kept stressing was this - 'Castro turned only to communism because fascism had been defeated in the Second World War.' Apparently, during college Castro was an alright guy - an athlete, a 'big man on campus.' But he always seemed to have some.. issues. He had a short temper and fits of depression. He would hug someone, begin talking to them, then suddenly stop and start screaming at them. But I'm getting off the point. The man I spoke to told me that Castro used to walk around campus alone, lost in his copy of Mein Kampf. During WWII, Castro kept a map on his wall and marked off Axis victories as they happened. At one point, he even expressed his wishes to travel to Germany and join the Nazi Party (and possibly even the army).

When the 'Allies' finally triumphed, Castro was (and I quote) "crushed." He secluded himself in his room for days, weeping over the death of Hitler and European Fascism.

Afterwards, he apparently denied that he had ever supported Fascism and Hitler, but he was never seen without his copy of Mein Kampf. Everyone on campus knew that Castro had only gone a bit 'underground' after the 'embarrasing' defeat of Fascism in Europe.

I know that the story I just gave you may not add much to the argument. I know that many of you will claim 'he's lying,' or 'trust me, Castro has changed,' but I see the story as a telling insight into Fidel Castro and his character. Few words have ever rung true to me so much as - 'He was a man who chose communism only because fascism had been defeated in the Second World War.'

It explains a lot.

:ph34r:

Comrade Raz

20th April 2004, 17:02

I agree that Castro is not a communist. I see him as more of a socialist, and it's obvious he has made advancements to the life for Cuban people and this should not be ignored. It is important to look at it objectively and see that Castro is about the best leader the world has, whilst he is far from perfect we should support him against those who would have Cuba turn capitalist as Cuba under Castro is better than Cuba under 'American backed dictator #147' would be.

Fidel Castro

21st April 2004, 00:46

'He was a man who chose communism only because fascism had been defeated in the Second World War.'

Castro did not announce himself to be a communist until a good time after the victory of the revolution in 1959. Before this he had been a member of an anti-corruption party.

Fuck the socialist state!

The socialist system in Cuba has provided too many benifits for the Cuban people, and made too much of an impact on the international community (fight against apartheid, sponsorship of Latin American and African movements etc) to be dismissed in such a way.

BuyOurEverything

21st April 2004, 02:53

Ortega: Your arguments are succesfully refuted and you come back with some irrelevant story about Fidel told by some guy he went to college with? I've read Mein Kampf, am I a facist? Come on, you can do better than that. I'm not claiming Castro is a communist, I'm simply trying to objectively analyze him and his government. You're just spitting out bullshit stories concocted by the Miami mafia and typical anti-communist rhetoric.

Hiero

21st April 2004, 03:08

Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 20 2004, 11:29 AM
read a book about anarchism..
I dont see how reading a book about anarchism is relevant.

¡Ortega! I dont beleive that and i doubt any body will.

I think everone isnt seeing the big picture here, yes castro wanst a communist during and before 1959, but he has taken actions that has started a socialist program. We cant really expect in 40 years to achieve communism after a revolution.

Morpheus

21st April 2004, 03:56

The only reason Catro implemented a state socialist program is because the US was really hostile towards him and forced him to align with the USSR if he wanted to stay in power.

Hiero

21st April 2004, 09:09

So that means he went down the right path, which is good.

I had always thought that he learnt Marxism during the revolution and just after it.

RedAnarchist

21st April 2004, 09:13

Does it really matter what Castro's idealogy is?

Cuba is socialist and is on the path to the Communist stateless utopia.

Also, i dont think he has long left :( . So that means we should see who is Communist amongst those who could replace him after he dies.

The Feral Underclass

21st April 2004, 09:18

Originally posted by comrade [email protected] 21 2004, 05:08 AM
I dont see how reading a book about anarchism is relevant.
Of course you don't.

The Feral Underclass

21st April 2004, 09:33

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 20 2004, 07:02 PM
I see him as more of a socialist, and it's obvious he has made advancements to the life for Cuban people and this should not be ignored.
Actually I disagree. The Swedish and Norweign governments are by far more liberal and progressive than Castro, and govern their people considerable more "pleasently". I would say the Prime Minister of Sweden was probably the best leader in the world.

whiles he ios far from perfect we should support him against those who would have Cuba turn capitalist as Cuba under Castro is better than Cuba under 'American backed dictator #147' would be.

America was better when it was goverend by Bill Clinton, does it mean that we should support Bill Clinton. Just because Castro is mildly better than some other bourgeois leaders around the world is not a reason to support him. We are supposed to be communists and revolutionaries, yet you are supporting a non-communist, pro-statist, authotarian, Catholic endorsing old man. Simply because he led a revolution and opposes America. Maybe it was because Che was his friend, and this autmotaically means that we should love him.

You say be objective. Well be objective. Look at the reality.

The Feral Underclass

21st April 2004, 09:37

Originally posted by comrade [email protected] 21 2004, 05:08 AM
We cant really expect in 40 years to achieve communism after a revolution.
Why? All he has to do is hand over power to a conscious working class. 40 years is plenty of time to achieve class consciousness and transfer power. Or at least set up the necessary institutions to achieve that, or at least begin some kind of process towards doing something which will lead to communism at some point.

HE HASN'T DONE THAT!!!

The Feral Underclass

21st April 2004, 09:42

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 11:13 AM
Cuba is socialist and is on the path to the Communist stateless utopia.

Also, i dont think he has long left :( . So that means we should see who is Communist amongst those who could replace him after he dies.
There is nothing in place, or has been put in place, or has even been spoken about putting in place for the last forty years anything which could lead to communism. It is a dream if you think that Cuba is on its way to communism. There are no material conditions or necessary pre-conditions to achieving that. And Castro is doing nothing to change that.

When Castro dies, Cuba will be revised. Cuba will go the same way Russia went and the same way China is going. People, even those in positions of power, are undoubtedly bored of all this. Why hand over power to the workers, when they can just open up the markets and be rich. And the workers probably wouldnt even care.

Hiero

21st April 2004, 10:25

Originally posted by The Anarchist [email protected] 21 2004, 09:33 AM
You say be objective. Well be objective. Look at the reality.
Im saying look t the larger picture, think about the future.

Hiero

21st April 2004, 10:40

Originally posted by The Anarchist Tension+Apr 21 2004, 09:37 AM--> (The Anarchist Tension @ Apr 21 2004, 09:37 AM)
comrade [email protected] 21 2004, 05:08 AM
We cant really expect in 40 years to achieve communism after a revolution.
Why? All he has to do is hand over power to a conscious working class. 40 years is plenty of time to achieve class consciousness and transfer power. Or at least set up the necessary institutions to achieve that, or at least begin some kind of process towards doing something which will lead to communism at some point.

HE HASN'T DONE THAT!!! [/b]
You have just shown how naive and unrealistic you are to think that a 2nd 3rd world country(whatever it is label) would be able to acheive communism in 40 years. The fact is there is still capitalist nations it has to trade with using today's world trade system. 40 years isnt enough it would take generations to be able to make the transition from socialism to communism.

Ortega

21st April 2004, 13:24

Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 02:53 AM
Ortega: Your arguments are succesfully refuted and you come back with some irrelevant story about Fidel told by some guy he went to college with? I've read Mein Kampf, am I a facist? Come on, you can do better than that. I'm not claiming Castro is a communist, I'm simply trying to objectively analyze him and his government. You're just spitting out bullshit stories concocted by the Miami mafia and typical anti-communist rhetoric.
So I'm the Miami Mafia now? :blink:
My point with that story was - Castro was well known around campus for his unconditional support of Hitler during World War Two. I can't say it much more simply than that. And I guarantee you that my story wasn't 'concocted' by anyone.

I'm holding back on a lot because most of you wouldn't listen to anything from any source other than your 'credible' ones (...meaning Granma).

And wait a second... ...when did I ever say anything anti-communist? I'm anti-Castro because he's NOT a commuist.

The Feral Underclass

21st April 2004, 13:31

Originally posted by comrade neonate+Apr 21 2004, 12:25 PM--> (comrade neonate @ Apr 21 2004, 12:25 PM)
The Anarchist [email protected] 21 2004, 09:33 AM
You say be objective. Well be objective. Look at the reality.
Im saying look t the larger picture, think about the future. [/b]
What the fuck does thos actually mean?

RedAnarchist

21st April 2004, 13:37

Listen, we cannot expect anyone to be a perfect communist and a perfect human. That is why we havent had any true Communists in power anywhere in the world yet. We need to educate human nature out of people, so that greed is seen as a very bad thing and money is seen not as valuable, but just pieces of paper and metal.

Ortega

21st April 2004, 13:39

Originally posted by comrade [email protected] 21 2004, 10:40 AM
40 years isnt enough it would take generations to be able to make the transition from socialism to communism.
Maybe, but Castro hasn't even begun on Socialism yet.

The Feral Underclass

21st April 2004, 13:51

let's say you want to make a cake but all the ingredients are not there so you have to wait. While you wait you can either be lazy or you can organize the rest of the ingredientsin preperation,

Forty years Castro has waited and in those 40 years he has done nothing, nothing to achieve commuism or lay down the foundations for such. I am not the naive one. Anyone who believes that Castro is going to see this revolution through, or that anyone else after his death are are extremly naive. People in Cuba have even begin to reject communism and for many of the young they dont even know what it is. What is Castro doing to change that!!!

Comrade Raz

21st April 2004, 15:43

QUOTE (Comrade Raz @ Apr 20 2004, 07:02 PM)
I see him as more of a socialist, and it's obvious he has made advancements to the life for Cuban people and this should not be ignored.

Actually I disagree. The Swedish and Norweign governments are by far more liberal and progressive than Castro, and govern their people considerable more "pleasently". I would say the Prime Minister of Sweden was probably the best leader in the world.

You don't believe that life in Cuba is better under Castro than under Batista? That i cannot agree with.

I do think he is better than Swedish or Norwegian governments (although i dont know alot about them) as these countries are capitalist states which i dont think Cuba is, yes i agree its not communist and it is not a utopia but for a 3rd world country it is extremly advanced, advancements that wouldnt have been made if it wasn't for the Cuban government including Castro.

America was better when it was goverend by Bill Clinton, does it mean that we should support Bill Clinton.

The differance between Clinton and Bush is much slimmer than that between Castro and Bush, and if Castro was to be replaced by a US dictator he would undoubtably hold similar positions to the US leader, currently Bush.

I simply say that Castro isn't perfect but i support him over US imperialism amd US backed dictatorships, which would be the only alternative in Cuba because as soon as the Cuban government loses control of the country it will be the US and no one else who will get into power.

BuyOurEverything

24th April 2004, 16:52

So I'm the Miami Mafia now?

No, I said you quoted the Miami Mafia. Big difference.

My point with that story was - Castro was well known around campus for his unconditional support of Hitler during World War Two. I can't say it much more simply than that. And I guarantee you that my story wasn't 'concocted' by anyone.

Even if that's true, which I sincerely doubt, it's irrelevant. Look at Castro and Castro's policies today. While I realize what you are trying to imply by that story, you could make a much stronger case by giving some evidence besides second or third hand stories from campus a couple decades ago. I've read a couple biographies of Castro and never heard anything about that.

Heesh

29th April 2004, 02:09

http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/cubaprecastro21698.html

Is this all true?

Fidel Castro

29th April 2004, 14:55

Heesh,

Firstly, an American magazine on Cuban issues is almost certain to be biased and push one view across.

Secondly, what that article is basically saying is "sure things back in the Batista days were not as good as they are now, but they were good enough."

It is certainly true that under Batista Cuba was not simply some backward hell-hole, but it was also far less equil and content than today.

LightningCount

30th April 2004, 21:10

:huh: Who the heck is this guy Ortega with all of his hilarious sources CubaNet.org, CIA.gov :lol: and implying Castro would of been a Fascist. Your posts are so discredible it's like their not even here. In fact why are you still here It's so obvious that you belive all that propaganda being spoon-fed to you by the Yankee Government an Cubano emigres who dispise the revolution.Where's your Revolutionary Spirit :( Some one said in this thread earlier that the U.S. doesn't see Castro as a threat anymore then why the Embargo?? They wan't to make him look so bad that's why. Wheres my views on this topic you say Ortega your not that important for me to get all intellectual on you right now so just read the posts made by BuyourEverthing I agree with him fully. Castro is so bad right Ortega well it's like everyone has been saying no one is perfect an let me guess you say the U.S. is bad as well but better then Castro right it's obvious your spirit lies underneath the Flag of Red,White,an Blue/Imperialism. Well I have a link for you Traitor

USA Is No Better than Any Other!!! (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/jointchiefs_010501.html) Eat It! Look at what extent they will go to trying to destroy anyone who is not their lapdog it's disgusting

Sorry to everyone if I seem hostile I may even be Sorry to you Ortega
but I'm just so sick of hearing yuppie-ass remarks like that.

Viva Cuba Libre!! Viva Mexico!! Viva Latin America!!

revolutionary thinker

7th May 2004, 01:55

think Castro honestly care's for his people, far more then any other leader in any country in the world.

digital nirvana are you serious???

Wiesty

7th May 2004, 02:14

Originally posted by revolutionary [email protected] 7 2004, 01:55 AM
think Castro honestly care's for his people, far more then any other leader in any country in the world.

digital nirvana are you serious???
?
man ive seen videos of him walking around the streets talking to average joes like you and me, no protection
what president especially bush,martin you get the point would get of their lazy asses with out "protection" to take time to talk to people freely
castro is a vear good leader
he dosent dress fancy to make the peasents feel poorer then they alreader are
look at some pictures
hes dressed in the same clothes he always wears

Wiesty

7th May 2004, 02:19

[QUOTE]If he is such a communist why does he embrace the Pope?

(got that quote from someone that dn quoted)

good point digital nirvana

Communism isnt a Religion
its a Government Status
Just because your a nazi dosent mean you have to worship jesus
You could be a Socialist and worship Budah for all I care

Knowledge 6 6 6

8th May 2004, 03:26

Communism oppresses religion you know. It doesnt want ppl to think for themselves - b/c the more knowledge one has, the more one will want to defy the system instead of falling in line.

Marx once said himself that religious institutions should not exist in a communist state. Your 'religion' is the gov't and following its orders.

I dont understand why one would want to live in a communist state - the essence of life to me, is understanding my gov't and going against what they 'claim' they do. If I cant do that in a communist state, then wtf's the point? I'd rather be an independent-thinking capitalist than a mindless zombie commie.

Meh, just me.

Salvador Allende

8th May 2004, 03:31

666, the major flaw is that no one lives in a Communist government, because there is no government under communism. If you mean "why would anyone want to live under Stalinism" than I can agree with you.

Timon of Athens

8th May 2004, 17:56

Thank you Digital Nirvana. Making the point I've been trying to make in so many other columns... Let me expand upon your point: To abolish religion, to not accept, for instance that Castro embraces the Pope not only is a petty faschism but also alienates a third of the world's population, more if you include other religions. Let me try to make this perfectly clear: In our position, we can't afford to alienate the religious! We need to attack the bourgious as a whole, a mass of communists united against the common foe. To alienate the Vatican, no matter what your personal opinion, is to make an enemy of one of the strongest powers in the world, and perhaps the only power that would see the people reign. Whoever thinks we can win a revolution with the help of only those who agree totally with us is a fool. Not only is it against what we, as leftists believe in, it's impossible.

Ortega

8th May 2004, 19:41

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2004, 05:10 PM
:huh: Who the heck is this guy Ortega with all of his hilarious sources CubaNet.org, CIA.gov :lol: and implying Castro would of been a Fascist. Your posts are so discredible it's like their not even here. In fact why are you still here It's so obvious that you belive all that propaganda being spoon-fed to you by the Yankee Government an Cubano emigres who dispise the revolution.Where's your Revolutionary Spirit :( Some one said in this thread earlier that the U.S. doesn't see Castro as a threat anymore then why the Embargo?? They wan't to make him look so bad that's why. Wheres my views on this topic you say Ortega your not that important for me to get all intellectual on you right now so just read the posts made by BuyourEverthing I agree with him fully. Castro is so bad right Ortega well it's like everyone has been saying no one is perfect an let me guess you say the U.S. is bad as well but better then Castro right it's obvious your spirit lies underneath the Flag of Red,White,an Blue/Imperialism. Well I have a link for you Traitor

USA Is No Better than Any Other!!! (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/jointchiefs_010501.html) Eat It! Look at what extent they will go to trying to destroy anyone who is not their lapdog it's disgusting

Sorry to everyone if I seem hostile I may even be Sorry to you Ortega
but I'm just so sick of hearing yuppie-ass remarks like that.

Viva Cuba Libre!! Viva Mexico!! Viva Latin America!!
Yuppie?! Traitor?!

Who the hell are you trying to impress?

#1 - Well, allow me to answer your first question by telling you that 'this guy Ortega' is me. Does that settle things?

On the issue of my sources - the CIA World Factbook has been cited many times by many pro-Cuba members of this site. A friend of mine recently used statistics from the site to write a pro-Cuba editorial for a local newspaper. Apparently you haven't looked at what the factbook has to say about Cuba. I'll let you do that, and then reply to me.

As for my other sources, what else am I supposed to use?! Granma?! Every other source is too 'bourgeois' for many of the members here, and as we all (should) know, Granma is absolutely and completely biased towards Fidel Castro. So I really can't win with my sources.

#2 - You really think that I'm a 'patriot?' You really think that anyone who doesn't support Castro is a 'patriot?' Something that many of you don't seem to understand is that closed-mindedness (and yes, that is a word) goes both ways. Let me explain.

If you live in the midwest (or any other closed-minded area) like I do, the mere mention of Castro can bring on tirades from old farmers about 'the evils of communism' and 'America's amazing ideals of freedom and democracy,' and so on. Again, if you're anything like me, you immediately paint this person as close minded. Many of you even post on Che-Lives to talk about your 'awful' close-minded teachers, family, and friends. But close-mindedness is not only a conservative, 'patriotic' thing.

You hear me argue against Castro, and the first words to spring out of your mouth (or out of your keyboard, I suppose) are:

"...it's obvious your spirit lies underneath the Flag of Red,White,an Blue/Imperialism. Well I have a link for you Traitor."

You automatically assume that because I do not support your beloved Mr. Castro, I am an Imperialist, a 'Red White, and Blue' Patriot, and worst of all, a 'Traitor.' Go back and read your post over. Your unfounded accusations are as closed-minded as the rantings of those old farmers about 'the Reds down in Cuba.' Being a leftist does not disqualify one from being a close-minded idiot.

You want to know 'why I'm still here?' Because I'm a leftist. I am a leftist who refuses to grovel at the feet of a certain dictator who continues to call himself a 'Marxist.'

#3 - Can you prove to me that Castro never courted (and that's putting it lightly)Fascism? Can you prove it? If not, than your argument is no better off than mine. I see no reason why you can call it 'discredible' that Castro considered Fascism and I can't say just the opposite. I've given you quotes from an interview. You've given me nothing.

#4 - I have not been spoon-fed any 'lies' or 'propaganda.' No one has ever spoon-fed me anything about Cuba. I've formed my own opinions through a balance of Granma, Che's writings, Fidel's speeches, and CNN. No one I know gives a fuck about Cuba, and I've never met an 'exile.'

I have plenty of revolutionary spirit, which is exactly why what has happened in Cuba is so sad for me.

As a side note, stop acting so fucking high and mighty. You seem to think that you know everything and you seem to think that you are perfectly qualified to talk down to me.

Well let me tell you, you're not. And you still have a lot to learn.

Cheers,

Jacobo Arbenz.

Subversive Pessimist

8th May 2004, 19:51

Smuggled tapes show luxury life of Castro

If you want me to believe this, then bring me the tape.

Subversive Pessimist

9th May 2004, 14:50

"[No gay person could ever] embody the conditions and requirements of conduct that would enable us to consider him a true revolutionary, a true communist."
-Fidel Castro...Great leader of freedom...

Where did you get this from?

The Feral Underclass

9th May 2004, 15:09

The link is provided.

Micah EL Layl

18th July 2004, 03:54

peace....
i enjoyed this thread.....indeed.....
all i know is....
Castro gave exile to Black Panthers who would be in
jail in North America....BIG UP CASTRO
Castro gave universal education universal health care
opposed to a US backed dictator who would have 11
year olds working and uneducated with no health care...BIG UP CASTRO.....
Castro stayed on top after 40 years of the US imperialist mosquito's
trying to poison him and his country.....
and YES.....Castro don't like FAGGOTS.....
and i don't either......not to say some of them aren't nice people.....
but Homosexuality is detremental to society.....
nothing can be reproduced.....furthermore it causes sickness....
the average male homosexual in north america lives to be 45.....
the male and female can absorb each others fluid and transfer that
into energy......but the colon passes solid waste....shit.....no
energy there.......and saliva does not make energy either....
furthermore semen in the mouth is treated as an enemy by the human
body....its like eating shit......Homosexuality is nothing but a Greco-Roman
perversion and the US imperialists try to PUSH this lifestyle on
non white populations to destroy them....
BIG UP TO CASTRO....keep on throwing those faggots in jail.....

Vinny Rafarino

18th July 2004, 04:45

It's commonly known that he represses homosexuals. He kicked them all out of his country when he got to power. Further more...

"[No gay person could ever] embody the conditions and requirements of conduct that would enable us to consider him a true revolutionary, a true communist."
-Fidel Castro...Great leader of freedom...

Nonsense.

This is a quote from 1965 when the socialist movement still suffered from some odd homophobic views. Here is what Comrade Castro said in 1992;

"I'm not going to deny that, at a certain point, this machista thing,
influenced the approach that was taken toward homosexuality. I personally --
you are asking me my personal opinion -- do not suffer from this type of
phobia against homosexuals. Truly, in my mind, that's never been there and I
have never been in favor nor have I promoted it, nor have I supported it,
policies against homosexuals."

"I don't see homosexuality as a phenomenon of degeneration, but rather I see
it in another way. The approach has been of another sort: a more rational
approach, considering the tendencies and natural things of the human being,
who simply must be respected. This is the philosophy with which I view these
problems. I think that there has to be consideration shown toward the family
that
suffers these situations. I would hope that the families would have another
mentality, that they would have another approach when something of this sort
happens. I am absolutely opposed to any form of repression, disdain, contempt
or discrimination with respect to homosexuals. That's what I think." -Fidel Castro, 1992

KrazyRabidSheep

18th July 2004, 05:26

the embargo is the U.S.'s own loss, eh?

if a country is so stupid as to ignore a nation which has scientists far closer to a cure for cancer then anyone else, they deserve what they get

as for castro, i've met a family of exiles. . .most of them are the people who controled all the wealth before the revolution. . .take Desi Arnaz for example, his father was mayor of Santiago (2nd largest city of Cuba)

the vast majority who enjoy health care, schools, housing, food, a comfortable living are content, for they had nothing before, the few that oppressed these people for thier own personal gains are the one leaving, for they believe they can become rich and powerful again in the United States

Abajo con el imperialismo

18th July 2004, 17:35

I do not belive fidel castro is a bad leader if he was cuba would be U$A territory by now,he has survived many assassination attempts and yet cuba still stands the people does not have alot of food but they can survive,unlike the U.$ its mayor health problem is people in overweight wich is bad for the heart. cuba's health plan does not need insurance to save someone's life while U$A's people dies for not having insurance.
LOL! Micah EL Layl is funny what you said of faggots,I dont like them eather but I am not against them since everyone should live their life and is their problem.

Subversive Pessimist

18th July 2004, 17:42

Someone in this thread said that Raul is not allowed access to Castro's pallace. Is this true?

Nothing Human Is Alien

18th July 2004, 21:44

Originally posted by Jacobo [email protected] 18 2004, 02:54 PM
Cuba's education system is terrible. The literacy rate of Cuba is so-so. It's absolutely terrible compared to the rates of many other countries.

You can't be serious, you've obviously never been to any country in latin america..

And speaking on human rights, take a look at www.sicubasi.org (http://www.sicubasi.org).

Victoria

Nothing Human Is Alien

18th July 2004, 21:55

http://sicubasi.org/images/gifs/mdg1EngHigher.gif

http://sicubasi.org/images/gifs/mdg2EngHigher.gif

http://sicubasi.org/images/gifs/mdg3EngHigher.gif

http://sicubasi.org/images/gifs/mdg4EngHigher.gif

http://sicubasi.org/images/gifs/mdg5EngHigher.gif

Benno

18th July 2004, 22:14

Castro made the revolution happen but his governing and history sparks discussions such as this thread. At the same time we all have in mind he isn't going to be around forever. Who will take over? Perhaps some of the figures of the 2nd revolution!? What 2nd revolution? - The Cuban Green Revolution!?

What we in the west generally terms as 'The Green Revolution' was the break through in industrialising 3rd world agriculture. We praise ourselves for having brought more wheat to the starving masses. A lengthy discussion on the actual effect on population health and dynamics should be made. Actually, the Green Revolution has been much more effective in spreading Western institutionalization of food systems than the Colonial Age was – only the rationale changed from religious and civilized to plain economic. A global decrease in natural and cultural diversity has been directly correlated with this expansion.

Marx predicted the downfall of capitalist society due to ecological stress when resources would enevitably become exploited. Capitalist society has been much more innovative in finding new areas to exploit than Marx ever imagined. The Green Revolution was one such expansion. We are today seeing new ones.

When the Soviet Union collapsed the US-embargo struck Cuba, and the Cubans starved. I think it looks quite revolutionary that the Cubans are now pretty much self sustaining and organic. The certification for organic production is more or less needless, as they don't have any chemical fertilizers or pesticides. But more than that: It is necessary to produce food locally, due to fossil fuel shortage too. Furthermore, the Universities of Cuba have undertaken research not done anywhere else; i.e. propagation of fungi to fixate aerial nitrogen.

Agree? But who is this 2nd Cuban Revolution Hero... the farmers!?

refuse_resist

19th July 2004, 01:36

I believe that Castro is trying his best to help the Cuban people from American imperialism. Especially lately that the American government is tightening the embargos and doing everything else it can to try and oppress the Cubans.

Castro might not be perfect, but at least he isn't an imperialist. He focuses more on trying to help the people than invading other countries and building up a military. Plus with how the literacy rate, health care and how everything else is going there, he obviously seems to be doing a fairly good job.

I can't believe you linked to http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/smCuggled.htm as proof of "Castro's life of luxury"! Come on, look at the site: http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/more.htm

Since the tape was aired on Univision, it was more than likely anti-Castro propaganda. They are well known for this, as well as being very anti-Chavez. I would know since I have relatives who watch this station and it's very sad. It's a typical bourgeois television station.

Subversive Pessimist

20th July 2004, 13:15

I've read quite a bit on Castro now, and my impression is that he's a manipulating, power hungry *****.

When Che and the others lost their weapons, and when the new shipment with guns came, Castro refused to hand out weapons to Che and the others.

He was, before and after the revolution, an anti communist (according from what I('ve read). Almost the whole M-26 movement, was anti-communist, with the exception of Che and Raul. I'm pretty sure he just say a quote from Marx from time to time, to win the people's hearts.

Nothing Human Is Alien

20th July 2004, 17:00

Exactly what have you read that brings you to this conclusion comrade?

Can you list some un-communistic practices by Fidel?

bunk

24th July 2004, 10:33

So Fidel has installed socialism and has made life better for nearly every person in Cuba, where have you been readin that stuff ComradeStrawberry

Subversive Pessimist

24th July 2004, 12:09

On a Danish workers site. I don't know if it is true, but It's common knowledge that he wasn't exactly a communist before (and after?) the revolution. Supposedly, Che and Raul made him a communist.

How does this guy live? I would really like to know. Does he live in a simple hut, a normal Cuban hourse, or does he have a giant castle?

Ortega

24th July 2004, 16:51

I've read quite a bit on Castro now, and my impression is that he's a manipulating, power hungry *****.
Agreed, Strawberry. And you're right about the anti-communist bit too, I've been talking about that since I've joined. I happen to be friends with several of Fidel's highschool friends who now live in the United States (mostly by choice, one by exile). They've told me that Fidel was indeed an anti-communist and supporter of Fascism throughout highschool and law school (and probably until the triumph of the Revolution). I've heard that Fidel was skeptical of Che in the beginning due to his political ideas.

You're also right about Raul and Che "converting" Fidel to communism, that's a well-known fact.

Subversive Pessimist

26th July 2004, 17:55

I've used the last few days reading on Fidel Castro. I have to say that I'm actually more positive now then I was just a few days ago. I would still like to see some good, neutral links on the History of Cuba from Batista took power, to this day.

I've read so much bullshit lately.. Just take a look at this.

http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/geyerfidel32998.html

Throughout his whole life, he has simply gotten rid of any competitors to power, either by sending them to places where they would surely die (Ernesto Che Guevara, Bolivia, 1967; Frank Pais, the streets of revolutionary Santiago de Cuba, 1957) or by executing them (Gen. Arnaldo Ochoa, Havana, 1989).

Meanwhile, his military and intelligence organizations assured -- and still assure -- his physical control over the island. (It is said that, every day, one of his personal bodyguards has no bullets in his gun but no one knows which one.)

What the hell is this?

Is this like a quote that is supposed to seem like it's so deep and wise, but doesn't mean shit? "It is said that, every day, on eof his personal bodyguards has no bullets in his gun but no one knows which one"
I mean, come on. :rolleyes:

And then she says that Fidel sent Guevara into Bolivia, where he would surely die?

Having interviewed Castro and written a biography of the man ("Guerrilla Prince: the Untold Story of Fidel Castro"), I have long refused to answer one question: "When will Castro fall?"

:rolleyes:

PS: I would like to know a few things....

Howdoes Castro live? Does he live in a hut? A normal Cuban house? A palace? A castle?