State of Europe

[Dune Dx]

Should we have a new super power to rival the US so it cant bully the rest of the world?

Should we have one?
Do we need one?

Can democracy survive in such a large stae where there are so many different needs?

[Inter arma, enim silent leges]

I don't think Europe could merge into one state.

As for rivalling the US, they can do a perfectly good job of it as a group of seperate nations, one massive nation would be far too inefficient.

The EU as a concept is the best we could have. It allows soverignty, and unity at the same time.

[AC-Socialist]

Im all in favor of a federal european super state. This can, and most probably will be phased in through means of ever continued EU participation by the member states.

Weve just got to make Britian join the euro to compete with the $US :D

[toastedmonkey]

I imagine it would be a good thing, theres left wing countries in europe, and it does have a leftish feel with unity and equality for the poeple within it, that doesnt neceserilly mean that will be achived of course.

I dont think i have enough knowledge to say much more, maybe someone has more details?

[konev]

here in Sweden i was active in the EURO vote and we won, Sweden woted no. The EU is a group of capitalist nations, what do we win by taking more power away from the people? we should oppose the EU and bring back power to the people, then we can have our revolution. Most of the EU is members of NATO, and NATO wont oppose the US! EUs trade policy is even more crimminal then that of the US. It is nothing we want to be in

[monkeydust]

I think that a Federal European state is an inevitability, as to when it will come about, I cannot say, though it will be interesting to see how things go when the ten new powers join in May.

Interestingly, some people continue to believe myths about the EU. One of the most prevelant of these is the belief that the EU seeks to centrally control all operations within itself. That is to say, that it seeks rule from Brussels, for all of Europe.

The reality is that the EU operates on a basis of subsidiarity. This essentially means that decisions will be taken at the lowest appropriate level.

If an issue only affects a local area, it will only be decided locally, if it only affects a country, it will be decided within that country. Issues such as pollution however, clearly need to be decided at an international level, if only because pollution produced from one country has far reaching affects in others.

If the EU is to develop into a federal state, then first it's governmental process seriously needs an overhaul. Currently, the elected parliament has relatively little power. Real power lies with the 'council of representatives' and the 'council of ministers'. Both essentially unelected bodies.

[shyguywannadie]

In communism their are no borders, let Europe unite as 1 then change it over time into 1 communist European State.


U.S.S.E = United Socialist States of Europe

[Osman Ghazi]

I agree with Konev on this one. Huge pacts only cause a loss of national soveriagnty which, for democratic countries like in Europe, means a loss of popular sovereignty. However, as long as major decisions are turned over to a pan-european plebiscite, there wouldn't really be any problems with it.

[The Feral Underclass]

So we should unify all the states so that the ruling class can oppress and exploit working people together?

It is very naive to believe that somehow the unification of Europe will become some shining becon for left wing politics. Yes it is a fact that some nations within Europe are left wing, but they are still bourgeois parties who seek to perpetrate a bourgeois agenda.

The state is the very thing that allows rulers to exploit and oppress. Creating one giant state will only make it worse. There will be no liberation, regardless of the name of its government, if the state exists. The state has to be smashed, whether it is national or european.

[God of Imperia]

I think this would never happen, I can't imagine the British working together with the French or the Germans and otherwise. There would be a clash of ego's, every nation would have to set aside their nationality, this is almost impossible...

[toastedmonkey]

Talking of which, has anyone seen the proposed new flag of teh EU?

Here (http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_583273.html?menu=news.latestheadlines)

[God of Imperia]

A bit confusing, try to learn all those colors in the right order. The blue flags is good enough, the EU not. There is no such thing as a united Europe, each country does what it wants, if they have to pay a fine for it then so be it ... Those fines are jokes anyway, the EU-nations can't even come up with a constitution, who believes in it is a fool.

[Roses in the Hospital]

The biggest problem for the foundation of a united Europe, from a British point of view at least, is the need for the genral population to wade through the anti-europe propaganda spread by the tories to be able to make an informed desision...
In principal I think unity of this nature can only be a good thing. particularly given the possibility of a rise of socialism in some European states.
The way things are going we might end up with Orwells 1984 predictions after all, albeit 50 years to late...

[God of Imperia]

There are to many different nationality's, to many different views on how to rule a state. If people find a way to unite Europe, then I would only encourage it. But this is a joke, but who knows, it might be a step in the good direction, it might ... There is a long way to go.
But I see two options here, or you prefer one large state, for good or for bad, or you prefer many small ones. It is your choice, they both have advantages and disadvantages ...

[Dune Dx]

After reading all yor postI have come to the decision that Europe is best off as a collection of individual nations but still being united through the EU

Things that maybe good for ome contries in Europe arnt good for all. The € has been good for Italy but would be disastoros for Britain

[God of Imperia]

Why do you think that? Because the £ is €1.5? Would that change much? I never had any economics, so don't shoot me for my ignorance, please :)

[Dune Dx]

lol

its jut that ( I might be wrong o again dont hoot me) Britain i an Iland and needs cheap imports also the econmy of Italy France and Germany hasnt performed very well and It wold drag Britains econ down with them

[God of Imperia]

I think this is a discusion for other people, who actually know things about this :), not like us, but I believe that the euro should not only be taken when it is profitable for you, it is a sign or a symbol, that you want to go further, it shows that you believe in a united Europe, I believe that by not having the euro as your curreny you are not taking the EU serious ...

[DaCuBaN]

The EU is a group of capitalist nations, what do we win by taking more power away from the people? we should oppose the EU and bring back power to the people, then we can have our revolution. Most of the EU is members of NATO, and NATO wont oppose the US! EUs trade policy is even more crimminal then that of the US. It is nothing we want to be in

I think I'm going to move to sweden. Not only did they build me a wonderful automobile that doesn't fall apart after 100,000 miles but they're socialist and anti-federal europe too.

Swedish aint too hard to learn, right? ;) :D

[Dune Dx]

LOL but doesnt sweeden have extremly tough imigration laws even Sweedish born people that have moved away from the country have a tough time getting back in

[Saint-Just]

I am in favour of a more integrated Europe. It would work very smoothly, it is not too big. Europe had a similar population to the U.S. and is much smaller than countries such as China and India.

Europe also possesses a common culture. Western European culture is often referred to as a single culture. We already have multicultural societies, although there are many problems to be dealt with in them.

I would like Europe to leave NATO and create its own armed forces. I don't think this will happen, and as a socialist it does not concern me that greatly either.

[SittingBull47]

Ah, the dangers of competition. Trying to rival a nation will cause more harm than good. To combine such a myriad of conflicting people would be to attempt to conform the masses of incredibly different backgrounds. This will lead to much more harm than good. Nobody wants to join together if their not all on the same page. Civil war may arise, Europe vs. Europe instead of Europe vs. America.

[Dune Dx]

Also In a larger state you have more people that wont be happy with the democratickly voted leader

[God of Imperia]

It kinda depends on when and how this will happen. Now, I'm not against it if they will work together for once, not every nation for itself ... If they don't then it is just useless ... Very useless. Then again, I like the open border thing in the EU, you have more freedom to go wherever you want in the EU. You don't get checked at every border. I also think the € was and is a good idea, something to oppose the $, but it should be the currency of all the EU-members! I also believe they NATO should be dispatched, there should be this EU-army, not an American one. Btw, there can't be a single leader of the EU, this is simply not possible, yet. Maybe some kind of parlement or large council, but not a single leader.

[RedAnarchist]

I think that NATO is outdated and should be scrapped as it is only there to serve American interests.

[Dune Dx]

I agree that nato serves americas interests, and really do we need it anymore?

[RedAnarchist]

Of course not.

The reason it was set up has been gone for over a decade. Its time to close down NATO

[Dune Dx]

Of course it probably wont be done

[RedAnarchist]

People in NATO nations should pressure their governments to reconsider their involvement in America's private little "united nations army"

[Dune Dx]

Have you posted on my how can we get rid of NATO topic?

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2004, 12:24 PM
Talking of which, has anyone seen the proposed new flag of teh EU?

Here (http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_583273.html?menu=news.latestheadlines)
That is an amazing flag. I haven't heard any plans to adopt a new flag, although obviously one will be needed on May 1st.

[Dune Dx]

No i havnt seen the proposed new flag can somone post it?

[RedAnarchist]

They are not changing it, and that is probably a brilliant decision. The barcode flag as it is know is an insult to true vexillogical flags.

[toastedmonkey]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 03:06 PM
They are not changing it, and that is probably a brilliant decision. The barcode flag as it is know is an insult to true vexillogical flags.
NEW FLAG (http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_583273.html?menu=news.latestheadlines)

your joking right xphile?

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 02:06 PM
They are not changing it, and that is probably a brilliant decision. The barcode flag as it is know is an insult to true vexillogical flags.

They have to change it since there will be more countries joining the EU. At the very least they will need more stars.

[RedAnarchist]

The stars bit is wrong.

At the present time there are 12 stars for 15 nations. This number of stars will not increase.

[Dune Dx]

Has anyone else seen the security systems there going to use in eastern europe for the new border of the EU?

[Dune Dx]

and that "new flag" sucks how rubbish!!!!

[DaCuBaN]

war may arise, Europe vs. Europe instead of Europe vs. America.

I don't think we need fear that any time soon. Even if europe does unite under a single constitution the only way it would turn to civil war within the first ten years or so would be if the yanquis incited it - there are plenty of other issues to keep the people occupied

[Invader Zim]

I dont give a shit one way or another, instead of having bullshit from westminister we would get it from Brussles.

Great...

actually maybe the rather liberal continentals would manage to keep our savagly right wing politicians in check. Thats the one advantage I can think of.

ohh and it would be nice to knock that smug sense of superiority from the US when they realise another superpower is on the block, though I doubt that a rival superpower would help world stability in the long run, cold war mark 2.

[DaCuBaN]

ohh and it would be nice to knock that smug sense of superiority from the US when they realise another superpower is on the block, though I doubt that a rival superpower would help world stability in the long run, cold war mark 2.

Many would argue the cold war was the longest run of peacetime in the 20th century, considering the main players never actually came directly to loggerheads

-Devils Advocate

[toastedmonkey]

thinking about it, i dont think the EU is a good thing, its making capitalism stronger, they are uniting to become strong capitalist nations, which will be much harder to overthrow.

On the otherhand, it may raise awareness of workers inn other countries, but its a longshot

[monkeydust]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2004, 11:54 PM

ohh and it would be nice to knock that smug sense of superiority from the US when they realise another superpower is on the block, though I doubt that a rival superpower would help world stability in the long run, cold war mark 2.

Many would argue the cold war was the longest run of peacetime in the 20th century, considering the main players never actually came directly to loggerheads

-Devils Advocate
That's an interesting point you touched upon there DaCuban. I tend to agree with such a viepoint.

During much of the cold (except maybe during detente) people genuinely thought that a nuclear war was a possible, perhaps even a likely scenario. The number of Nukes around at the time, is estimated to have been enough to hav destroyed the world 27 times.

Whilst the USSR and the allies had their differences they were both, more or less, rational people, and knew that launching a nuke at the other would not be in their own interests (as they'd get a load coming back). In reality the possibility of one attacking the other was always unlikely, even if it didn't seem that way.


Today, however as nuclear technology is becoming ever widespread, there are those who would be willing to use them, without a care of the consequences. This, if the situation arose, could prove much more dangerous than the situation in the cold war.

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2004, 11:05 AM
The stars bit is wrong.

At the present time there are 12 stars for 15 nations. This number of stars will not increase.
Yes, you are right. It must stay the same then. Although I think the barcode flag is a nicer flag.

[konev]

in the guidelines of the EMU is that the different nations should coordinate thier financial policy. This mean that a nation thats elects a right wing governement and antion the elects a left wing will have to have the same policy, this can not be called democray

[Dune Dx]

There are so many different cultures in europe - i nolonger think it would be possible to have a United Europe people in france want different things to people in Britain.

[The Feral Underclass]

The argument here should not be that we achieve a united federal europe but that the working class in each country move to challange their respective ruling class. Obviously this is quite an abstract argument to normal working class people, but the fight is not to create a federal europe, but to create an international communist society.

[Dune Dx]

I think a united Europe will just mean people will loose their voice and far more people will be unhappy.

[crazy comie]

It would be good to have a fedrel state of europe as it would economicly be way more powerfull than the usa. It wqould also allow the formation of a large socialist state more easy.

[Dune Dx]

no it would just give capatilism and materialism a stronger foot hold

[crazy comie]

No becuse the same things would be happening o europe all at once insted of being staggerd by 20 years

[Dune Dx]

Originally posted by crazy [email protected] 6 2004, 07:04 PM
No becuse the same things would be happening o europe all at once insted of being staggerd by 20 years
I dont understand your point

[Comrade Zeke]

God the new flag is a little bright on the eyes it looks like Hippie wall paper to me but I could go for I don't see anything in the next 15 years I will be a citizen of Eroupe. I just a intresting idea what if after all the Eroupean States were United....that would make it easier for the workers to hold strikes and overthrow the government. Think about all the states are united in Eroupe they only need an army to deffend against forign attacks right?? So they won't have an army in the inteior. Well some of the peoples of Eroupe are going to get so pissed off about how the Capitalist governments are treating them they will form a revolution then a DOMINO effect will fall in and Eroupe will become a giagantic Socalists state with some buiness to keep the econmy up but nothing much more the Eroupeans making there own goods and the comman people running the government with high taxes for free housing, food, electricty and others I am thinking 48% tax rate. The two most powerful states will probally be U.k and Germany. Right now the E.U even has a president! The Prime Minister of Ireland! That is so great.
Sorry about spelling
Eroupe Unite!
Zeke :rolleyes:

[pandora]

Personally being all EU does nothing but keep the Eastern Block from showing it's true capitalist colors, far from the EU being the new kid on the playground to sucker punch the US it's more like the new kid to sucker up and kiss the US's or Bush's that is butt cheeks.

Bush really thinks he's going to pull this prison bullshit no prob. Yesterday they talked about getting rid of Rumsfield now it's he didn't do anything wrong, maybe Bush will say if he goes I go, I'd like that :D

[crazy comie]

Originally posted by Dune Dx+May 6 2004, 07:11 PM--> (Dune Dx @ May 6 2004, 07:11 PM)
crazy [email protected] 6 2004, 07:04 PM
No becuse the same things would be happening o europe all at once insted of being staggerd by 20 years
I dont understand your point [/b]
Becuse things will happen at the same times to cause strikes and revoulotions and sutch like would happen at once insted of being staggerd.