the contradictions of communism

[Negrillon]

if right wingers are so flawed communism has no future. no society has truly reached the pinnacle of marxist communism because of the inherent flaws of man. it is a theoretical form of government, and is perfect as such, but it is not practical. the fact that you people idolize che guevara enough to create a website and forums and have countless discussions of his greatness just goes to show that even if you people had your way, there would be a leader, and so eventually a rudimentary free market system would develop, so after about 25 years you would have capitalism under a different name. like every other communist country.

[John Galt]

Capitals help.

[Essential Insignificance]

if right wingers are so flawed communism has no future

Why exactly…what do the two have in common to cancel communism out.


no society has truly reached the pinnacle of marxist communism because of the inherent flaws of man

What "inherent" flaws of men…I will assume you are referring to the capitalist pivotal word "greed". Its an myth.


is a theoretical form of government, and is perfect as such, but it is not practical

There is know government in a communist society.

I think that capitalism is not practicable.


the fact that you people idolize che guevara

I don’t idealize Che…but a lot do, that’s their prerogative.


there would be a leader

Why, yes they’re would be…the population...hard to fathom, I presume, for you.


like every other communist country

There has never been a communist country.

[Negrillon]

Why exactly…what do the two have in common to cancel communism out. Communism works only as a pure society. So with capitalism (or any other ideology for that matter) still in existence, there is no possible way for communism to exist.
I will assume you are referring to the capitalist pivotal word "greed". Its an myth. Yes, i am referring to greed. Or any frame of mind that would make a single person think of the needs of them or their families over the rest of the people.
Why, yes they’re would be…the population...hard to fathom, I presume, for you. The entire population could not govern itself. It would, over time, become governed by the most intelligent or most highly favored.
There has never been a communist country. I'll admit, i should have said "attempted communist countries" which you cannot deny have existed. They have all turned into socialist countries, dictatorsips or in the most extreme cases personality cults, the most noticable of which would be the cult of mao.

[elijahcraig]

if right wingers are so flawed communism has no future. no society has truly reached the pinnacle of marxist communism because of the inherent flaws of man. it is a theoretical form of government, and is perfect as such, but it is not practical. the fact that you people idolize che guevara enough to create a website and forums and have countless discussions of his greatness just goes to show that even if you people had your way, there would be a leader, and so eventually a rudimentary free market system would develop, so after about 25 years you would have capitalism under a different name. like every other communist country.

To assume that, if what you say is true, a “free market system would develop” is absurd.


Yes, i am referring to greed. Or any frame of mind that would make a single person think of the needs of them or their families over the rest of the people.

That’s not greed, that’s common sense.


The entire population could not govern itself. It would, over time, become governed by the most intelligent or most highly favored.

I agree.


I'll admit, i should have said "attempted communist countries" which you cannot deny have existed. They have all turned into socialist countries, dictatorsips or in the most extreme cases personality cults, the most noticable of which would be the cult of mao.

Cuba is working quite well without this sort of thing.

All the rest have done as you describe, or have been bombed into the stone age out of Imperialist rage at their revolutions or reforms.

[Negrillon]

Cuba is working quite well without this sort of thing. In the early years yes. Now, Castro has made the last bastion of practical communism into a dictatorship.

[elijahcraig]

Do you have any proof of that? Or are you simply regurgitating popular notions?

[Nyder]

if right wingers are so flawed communism has no future.

What do you mean by 'right wingers'?


no society has truly reached the pinnacle of marxist communism because of the inherent flaws of man.

Are they really flaws? If you are talking about self-interest as a 'flaw' then you are pandering to the beliefs of communists. Self-interest is a complicated thing that does not necessarily have to be considered a 'flaw' (and by whom, and for what purpose?).

Self interest could be a man's love for his wife, a charity's donations to sick children or a woman focused on her career. It is basically where individuals allocate subjective value based on their own criteria.


it is a theoretical form of government, and is perfect as such, but it is not practical.

Which is why it has not existed outside of a dictatorship.


the fact that you people idolize che guevara enough to create a website and forums and have countless discussions of his greatness just goes to show that even if you people had your way, there would be a leader, and so eventually a rudimentary free market system would develop

Eh?


, so after about 25 years you would have capitalism under a different name. like every other communist country.

Communism in the USSR collapsed because it bankrupted itself. You can only buy so many tractors to work a field (ie. the communists constantly adding capital but fail to innovate as effectively as laissez faire economies).

[Essential Insignificance]

Communism works only as a pure society. So with capitalism (or any other ideology for that matter) still in existence, there is no possible way for communism to exist.

I am not to certain what your, propose is with the word "pure". Capitalism is not, to be specific, an ideology but rather a form of economic foundation and regulation. Hence an economic foundation cannot exist independent of an communist society and it social regulation.

Capitalism will not be in existence if communism is, in a given locality.


Yes, i am referring to greed. Or any frame of mind that would make a single person think of the needs of them or their families over the rest of the people.

Generally…people think and interact with a general occurrence under differing modes of productions, each with a definite structure of society and class antagonisms …material conditions.

The conditions for eliminating capitalism, is the revolutionary elimination of the social contradiction, which gave rise to it…class society, which is approximately 10,000 years old…excluding the "natural"division with in the family configuration.

Once the revolutionary proletarian has revolutionized in itself for itself with political power, and following with the annihilation class society…the material condition will change significantly…therefore men he will change, in this dramatic alteration of society.

The needs of each family will be satisfied to that of a high standard of living…much higher in "general" then that of capitalism.


The entire population could not govern itself. It would, over time, become governed by the most intelligent or most highly favored

What’s your premise for this thought.


I'll admit, i should have said "attempted communist countries" which you cannot deny have existed. They have all turned into socialist countries, dictatorsips or in the most extreme cases personality cults, the most noticable of which would be the cult of mao.

Have a momentary look at the material conditions prior these revolutions…some may perhaps declare that is was inevitable and unavoidable.

I know I do.

Were yet to see a proletarian revolution in an advanced capitalist nation …this is what Marx’s was referring, when he spoke of proletarian revolution…not peasant rebellions in semi-feudal, colonel nations.

[Yazman]

First of all, he's using the classic cappie "human nature" argument, which is also the EASIEST thing in the world to disprove.

Secondly, leadership does NOT equal hierarchy.

[The Feral Underclass]

You speak so much but say very little. You have not shown a contradiction in communism, you have just highlighted common misconceptions. It's all very boring really.

[Hiero]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 12:24 AM
if right wingers are so flawed communism has no future. no society has truly reached the pinnacle of marxist communism because of the inherent flaws of man. it is a theoretical form of government, and is perfect as such, but it is not practical. the fact that you people idolize che guevara enough to create a website and forums and have countless discussions of his greatness just goes to show that even if you people had your way, there would be a leader, and so eventually a rudimentary free market system would develop, so after about 25 years you would have capitalism under a different name. like every other communist country.
OH MY GOD he is right he has figured it out, this man is a genious!!!!!!!!!!!!!Quick Evacuate the building before he consumse us all.

[cubist]

Communism works only as a pure society. So with capitalism (or any other ideology for that matter) still in existence, there is no possible way for communism to exist.

bingo beats there son thats why the word revolution usually goes infront of communism when thinking about it as an ideal, unfortunately global revolution is required now that capitalism is reaching its final state

[Hoppe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 01:09 PM
bingo beats there son thats why the word revolution usually goes infront of communism when thinking about it as an ideal, unfortunately global revolution is required now that capitalism is reaching its final state
Again?

[cubist]

again? whatyou want an encour

[Misodoctakleidist]

I think we need a thread in OI about human nature; whether it exists and if so, what it is. It would be best if someone who believes in human nautre started it but people like that generaly don't want to explain their illogical thoughts so i'll start one.

[Ziggy]

Alex, what the hell? you come off much better when we debate at school. You're just basically saying what other people say this is dribble, be creative! Throw something new at us! throw us a curve ball!

[Negrillon]

he's using the classic cappie "human nature" argument, which is also the EASIEST thing in the world to disprove. Then disprove it.
Capitalism will not be in existence if communism is, in a given locality. That's fairly obvious. the key phrase there is "in a given locality", and what i was trying to say is that the way communism is implemented now, it can not be in the same international community as a capitalist state because of the way that after the initial revolution in the second stage, filled with power grabs and corrupt party officials, people become discontented and start defecting to the countries seen as stable. most countries have tried to stop this by blocking out the rest of the world, but it only makes the flood of outgoing citizens more concentrated when the veil is removed.
Alex, what the hell? you come off much better when we debate at school. You're just basically saying what other people say this is dribble, be creative! Throw something new at us! throw us a curve ball! i'm sorry, initial statements aren't my strong point. i'll try for more "curve balls" in the future.
You have not shown a contradiction in communism look up contradiction. what i said, in essence, is that as people do govern themselves, but they end up doing so through representatives out of convenience, so communism just forces itself to be regulated through the least efficient means. people realize this, and so establish leaders and end up getting rid of the one thing that makes communism a good and unique idea.
OH MY GOD he is right he has figured it out, this man is a genious!!!!!!!!!!!!!Quick Evacuate the building before he consumse us all. thank you.... i think.

i agree with Misodoctakleidist, because human nature is really what all these petty little political discussions boil down to.

[Misodoctakleidist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 08:05 PM

he's using the classic cappie "human nature" argument, which is also the EASIEST thing in the world to disprove. Then disprove it.
Take a look at the thread a started on the topic.

[New Tolerance]

"human nature"

I guess it is "our" nature (by "our" I mean us "communists") to hate captialism and want to get rid of it. It's been done before, captialism was destroyed on half of the planet at one time. We can do it again. (If you don't like it, don't blame us, we can't help it, it's our "nature")

[Professor Moneybags]

It's been done before, captialism was destroyed on half of the planet at one time.

When was that ?

[Essential Insignificance]

I image his referring to the USSR...and Eastern Europe.

[Forward Union]

There is no human nature only individual nature, otherwise it would be impossible for people to starve themselves, or commit suicide. A scientist called Jean Piaget discovered that for the first few months of a babies life, it has no sense of greed, but it does infact learn greed. meaning if you brought up enough children properly communism would be inevitable.

[Hoppe]

Originally posted by Marxist [email protected] 16 2004, 11:04 AM
There is no human nature only individual nature, otherwise it would be impossible for people to starve themselves, or commit suicide. A scientist called Jean Piaget discovered that for the first few months of a babies life, it has no sense of greed, but it does infact learn greed. meaning if you brought up enough children properly communism would be inevitable.
Or worship their glorious leader. :rolleyes:

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

And what if we tell them to question all 'authority'?

don't confuse communism with the eastern despotism of North Korea

[Hoppe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 11:44 AM
And what if we tell them to question all 'authority'?

don't confuse communism with the eastern despotism of North Korea
I don't, but I always become very suspicious when I hear lefties talk about "bringing up children properly".

[Osman Ghazi]

And I always become very suspicious when I hear righties talk about "bringing up children properly". Both systems raise children to believe in their own values. If they didn't, their societies would collapse.

[AC-Socialist]

Originally posted by Osman [email protected] 16 2004, 12:38 PM
And I always become very suspicious when I hear righties talk about "bringing up children properly". Both systems raise children to believe in their own values. If they didn't, their societies would collapse.
Well actually, in an interesting contradiction. Capitalistic nations do bring there children up under very much a socialistic dotrine...

Always Share

Help your fellow man when he's down

take only what you can eat

Dont discriminate

[SittingBull47]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 12:24 AM
the fact that you people idolize che guevara enough to create a website and forums and have countless discussions of his greatness just goes to show that even if you people had your way, there would be a leader, and so eventually a rudimentary free market system would develop
You know there are many, many other topics and features of Che-lives. It's a site for the left, not only for admirers of Che. (of course I would have never made this my most visited site if It weren't for my interest in Che).

What other communist society? there's been soi-disant communism but never true societies devoted to the idea.

[Hoppe]

Originally posted by Osman [email protected] 16 2004, 12:38 PM
And I always become very suspicious when I hear righties talk about "bringing up children properly". Both systems raise children to believe in their own values. If they didn't, their societies would collapse.
:lol:

I still remember the books from my time in school telling me to open sweatshops, spit on poor people etc.

No sir, raising your children the way you feel is appropriate is better than making children a means to your communist dream.


Well actually, in an interesting contradiction. Capitalistic nations do bring there children up under very much a socialistic dotrine...

Always Share

Help your fellow man when he's down

take only what you can eat

Dont discriminate

Hmm, then your socialist doctrine is much like "Opium furs Volk", since these are all religious values.

So where does it go wrong then? If your teach a child of 5 chinese it will easily learn the language, but if he is 15 he's lost.

[AC-Socialist]

Firstly, you have taked marx out of context. He advocated the common sense approach faith had. Any socialist will tell you that Greed is a deadly sin, as affimed by many faiths.

[AC-Socialist]

Firstly, you have taked marx out of context. He advocated the common sense approach faith had. Any religous person will tell you that greed is a deadly sin, as is affirmed by many socialists.

[Hoppe]

Originally posted by AC-[email protected] 16 2004, 03:28 PM
Firstly, you have taked marx out of context. He advocated the common sense approach faith had. Any religous person will tell you that greed is a deadly sin, as is affirmed by many socialists.
So, most parents as well since they recognize that their child will live in a world with other people. Yet to claim these values as socialistic is absurd.

[AC-Socialist]

These values run common with socialist values, yes.

[Osman Ghazi]

I still remember the books from my time in school telling me to open sweatshops, spit on poor people etc.

No, but they definately justify the capitalist system. Rarely do they tell children that things need to change, and when they do, they divert their attentions away from smashing the system to sustaining it with volunteer work.


No sir, raising your children the way you feel is appropriate is better than making children a means to your communist dream.

Do you think before you talk/write? Obviously, if I think the values of socialism are the best, then I feel that it is appropriate to raise my child with those values and thusly, I wouldn't see it as using them as a means to an end.

[STI]

don't, but I always become very suspicious when I hear lefties talk about "bringing up children properly".


It won't be 'brainwashing' children. Children adopt the values of the societies in which they are brought up, barring a few exceptions. If children are raised in a socialist society, they will learn socialist values, just as they learn capitalist values like greed now in a capitalist society.

[Hoppe]

Originally posted by Osman [email protected] 16 2004, 08:02 PM
Do you think before you talk/write? Obviously, if I think the values of socialism are the best, then I feel that it is appropriate to raise my child with those values and thusly, I wouldn't see it as using them as a means to an end.
Excuse me? The difference between you and me is that you think I should raise my children with your values. Surely brainwashing would help your revolution very much.


These values run common with socialist values, yes

So it's either hell or exile for those who not comply.


It won't be 'brainwashing' children. Children adopt the values of the societies in which they are brought up, barring a few exceptions. If children are raised in a socialist society, they will learn socialist values, just as they learn capitalist values like greed now in a capitalist society.

A few posts ago people were saying that we teach our children "socialist" values in our capitalist world. Something must be wrong with your argument.

[STI]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 08:39 PM

It won't be 'brainwashing' children. Children adopt the values of the societies in which they are brought up, barring a few exceptions. If children are raised in a socialist society, they will learn socialist values, just as they learn capitalist values like greed now in a capitalist society.

A few posts ago people were saying that we teach our children "socialist" values in our capitalist world. Something must be wrong with your argument.
First, it wasn't 'people' (plural). It was one. Second, one of the largest institutions of socialization (the largest, in fact), is the family.

I don't think the move from capitalism to socialism/communism will be about what morals children are taught. I believe it will be about class conciousness developed in the workplace above anything else. Marx never made any moral appeals for communism, because it's not about morals.

[Nas]

if right wingers are so flawed communism has no future. no society has truly reached the pinnacle of marxist communism because of the inherent flaws of man. it is a theoretical form of government, and is perfect as such, but it is not practical. the fact that you people idolize che guevara enough to create a website and forums and have countless discussions of his greatness just goes to show that even if you people had your way, there would be a leader, and so eventually a rudimentary free market system would develop, so after about 25 years you would have capitalism under a different name. like every other communist country.

no society has reached the pinnacle of marxist communism because of the inherent flaws of man?? if you mean "greed" then you probably think people are too greedy for communism or socialism ?/ well i think its all about control , i mean if you could control your self you could control your greedyness, i know most people here probably cannot control themselves but anywho , this is why communism is known to be a more advance society than capitalism , where even the people are more advance than in a capitalist society , - which is why i believe communism can only happen in far future - not tomorrow / socialism might happen tomorrow ;)


also , Guevara was a leader , but he did not remain in charge of Cuba.

[dopediana]

Originally posted by SittingBull47+Apr 16 2004, 01:36 PM--> (SittingBull47 @ Apr 16 2004, 01:36 PM)
[email protected] 15 2004, 12:24 AM
the fact that you people idolize che guevara enough to create a website and forums and have countless discussions of his greatness just goes to show that even if you people had your way, there would be a leader, and so eventually a rudimentary free market system would develop
You know there are many, many other topics and features of Che-lives. It's a site for the left, not only for admirers of Che. (of course I would have never made this my most visited site if It weren't for my interest in Che).

What other communist society? there's been soi-disant communism but never true societies devoted to the idea. [/b]
while most of us find out about this place because of googling for che guevara, this is without a doubt the best leftist community on the web.

[Nyder]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2004, 08:29 AM
while most of us find out about this place because of googling for che guevara, this is without a doubt the best leftist community on the web.
Google is owned by a corporation, you know. So if it wasn't for Google, you would never have found this site. Well I guess capitalism isn't so bad, then?

[Y2A]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 12:24 AM
if right wingers are so flawed communism has no future. no society has truly reached the pinnacle of marxist communism because of the inherent flaws of man. it is a theoretical form of government, and is perfect as such, but it is not practical. the fact that you people idolize che guevara enough to create a website and forums and have countless discussions of his greatness just goes to show that even if you people had your way, there would be a leader, and so eventually a rudimentary free market system would develop, so after about 25 years you would have capitalism under a different name. like every other communist country.
Ahahahahahahaha. Yes, those stupid Che sub-forums. What did Che do in his spare time? I'm a great admirer of Che and want to learn more about him, where was he born? I wear my Che shirt at school, and no one even knows what it means lol. My history teacher knows who Che is, can you believe it!!! etc.........

[DaCuBaN]

Google is owned by a corporation, you know. So if it wasn't for Google, you would never have found this site. Well I guess capitalism isn't so bad, then?

Computers were invented and built under capitalist systems so it kind of goes hand in hand. Considering our options for having a socialist search engine are non-existant afaik (but what an idea!) and the few socialist states that remain on this world aren't up to the technological development of the mighty yanquis + chums so it's unlikely we'll be seeing one anytime soon.

By the way, how would you know that I didn't just try and register the domain name www.che-lives.com ? never assume comrade :)


I don't think the move from capitalism to socialism/communism will be about what morals children are taught. I believe it will be about class conciousness developed in the workplace above anything else. Marx never made any moral appeals for communism, because it's not about morals


The difference between you and me is that you think I should raise my children with your values. Surely brainwashing would help your revolution very much

'raising' children is all about brainwashing in the first place - I firmly believe this is it's origins. You nurture a child, let them see how things lie and come to their own conclusions about anything and everything. Children are inquisitive (as I guess we all are) by their nature but I've always felt it's 'morally' wrong to try and 'teach' them values one way or the other. Let them listen to you debate with others, let them read when they can, use various substances - anything to let them experience the world and come to the best conclusion they can. I certianly can't figure the whole thing out, but I hope that through my children I will learn more simply by observing their development. I guess I'm not much of an interventionalist :)

The point though is that I don't think children SHOULD be taught values - they should come to these things themselves. What if your son/daughter learns your ways and then in later life decides they vehemontly disagree with it after learning more. There is certainly morals involved there - you've just wasted who knows how long of your childs life and hampered the development of the species. Thanks :rolleyes:

[cubist]

haha google i found this through the RATM message board,

but funnily enough nyder the internet is capitalist you dumb fuck.

do you think socialists don't go to work aswell??
do you think we don't by food?
do you think we all stay naked to save paying coperate whores money for clothes?

but google is free we aren't being exploited and having to pay for google so it makes money out of other companies not people who use it

[God of Imperia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 02:24 AM
if right wingers are so flawed communism has no future. no society has truly reached the pinnacle of marxist communism because of the inherent flaws of man. it is a theoretical form of government, and is perfect as such, but it is not practical. the fact that you people idolize che guevara enough to create a website and forums and have countless discussions of his greatness just goes to show that even if you people had your way, there would be a leader, and so eventually a rudimentary free market system would develop, so after about 25 years you would have capitalism under a different name. like every other communist country.
There is a slight difference in idolising and just blindly following. You can find people very inspiring, you can find them a great example, but that doesn't mean that he can order you to do things. If you do the things he tells you to do, without asking why or talking about it, where is the equality? If you blindly follow someone elses commands then you, my friend, are an idiot, even if he is a great person.