The Taliban's view of women,religon based or not? - talibans

[pastradamus]

I wanna know about what views the Taliban & the Koran have on women. Comments->

[Supermodel]

Based on my very limited knowledge, the Koran actually requires men to take good care of their women and says nothing about women being inferior or being possessions other than that a proper inheritance plan is to give each son four times what each daughter inherits.

My sources are my own terrible memory from the book "Princess" about a Saudi princess. If you pick it up in the library you can read what it says about the Koran in a couple of minutes.

BTW, the St. James bible also has verses that folks claim say a woman should serve her man. You can tell that's not the bible I read.....

[revolutionary]

I also don't know much but the women must not be seen outside and must board up there windows in their houses to avoid men seeing them when they are inside. I don't believe they are beaten or badly treated physically. But i could be wrong.

[I Will Deny You]

Quote: from revolutionary on 8:16 pm on Jan. 31, 2002
I also don't know much but the women must not be seen outside and must board up there windows in their houses to avoid men seeing them when they are inside. I don't believe they are beaten or badly treated physically. But i could be wrong.I'm pretty sure that's only an interpretation of what the Koran says. Like most religious texts, it has been abused by men who would abuse women with or without what they tell themselves is G-d's approval. I'm sure that if Catharism had survived until today, even it would be used by men to oppress women. It really doesn't matter very much what any religious text says. Egalitarian worshippers will mostly come to the conclusion that important texts, especially sacred ones, promote equal rights and justice for all, while prejudiced worshippers will say that the opposite is true. The Koran, like many texts, is ambiguous a lot.

[Moskitto]

My grandad said the koran is filled with calls for oppression.

The thing is most of the examples he gave could also be said about christianity

[GuerillaTactics]

Women in Islam are required to cover the hair on their heads and their bodies down to the ankles. The reason for this is to ensure that they are not viewed as sexual objects and are viewed as individuals and judged on their character instead of their appearance

[pastradamus]

So in other words the men must protect their women by making them cover their heads? hey my sister read that princess book too.

[Derar]

Yeah , the kuran also requires the husband to treat his wife properly , or else she has the right to divorce him .... and the man will be punished .
and correction for supermodel the inheritance plan is that the guy has twice the girl not 4 times !!!
and thats becoz the man takes care of the family , and he is the one who pays for the house , food and most of the stuff .
and i cant really find a way how the koran carries some messages of oppression.....
the woman is required to wear a scarf , so as not to attract men , so adultery will be less , and rape as well ....
if u check how many women r raped in countries like the us. and how many in countries in different places in the middle east , u'll see the difference .....

after all god said in the kuran that heaven is under mothers' feet !

[TheGranma]

The Taliban were extremists with mysogonistic views in my opinion. I watched the absolutley superb documentary "Behind the Veil" about the Taliban and opression of women in Afghanistan before the entire Sep 11 incident and so on. It was truly sickening, these women could not do a thing - including work and teaching. They shown women whose husbands had been killed by Taliban soldiers...as they could not work had to scavenge for scraps of food to feed themselves and thier children.

[Son of Scargill]

Well.....I Will Deny You,.....
I totally agree that religion and dogma will be interpreted to whatever the individual believes in,most religious thought is well meaning.BUT!If it is to be implemented,it requires men to lay down the basic laws and rights of others(read women and children).THIS IS WRONG!Even in the suppossed enlightened west there is great opposition to women in the priesthood,why?I know not!
There are still old bastdards in the south of France who are afraid that the Cathars may return,why,because they cannot accept reason and change.Obviously the people I met will soon die,but why has a hatred of a long dead religion hung on so strongly.Maybe it was the message preached,that this is hell,we are all equal,and must work towards full enlightenment,or else be doomed to another earthly hell.
I personally think this is a usefull message to be past on,but I'm also sure that some charlarton bastard would come along and steal the basic message/premise that had been past on,and pass it on again,only slightly more biased again.Slightly more mysogynistic.

TO me it is sickening to read the Amnesty international reports on the treatment of women and girls in Chechnya.The rape and torture is bad enough,but the attitude of one husband,to me,is totallly reprehehnsible.They came to the home of"Zainap"(not real name),in the village of Kurcheloy,they were after her husband,but they didn't find him.The Russians took her to the Temporary Departement of Internal Affairs(VOVD),located in the military command post in Kurcheloy.
Two women witnesses stated that she was repeatedly gang-raped and ill-treated by Russian soldiers,and suffered a miscarriage.....She was released in mid-November,in exchange for 10 machine-guns.,requested by the Russians,from her relatives.
Upon her release from detention she underwent surgery,but in line with the strong cultural taboo against rape victims in Chechen society,her husband refused to have any thing to do with her!............Sorry,But you're a tosser to me.I support Chechen independance.........but not if you want to live in the fucking stoneage,accept it.............



Btw,TheGranma,You should also see if you can get hold of a programme called"Death Of A Princess",by the BBC,it's just like the film you watched,but it involved Saudi citizens and Royalty,but it was banned because it was "unfair to the Saudi System".........I mean,if you can't behead the odd Princess or two,what's the point of being a royal............................................. .........................................What BOLLOCKS...it was making it difficult for oil companies to work there,that's all.When they'd cover'ed it all up,they carried on as usual,until some crack pot called Osama turned up.Hey HO!EAT SULPHUR YOU CAPITALIST BASTARDS!!!!!!

[Son of Scargill]

Sorry for replying whilst quite pissed,but I felt it had to be said!

[Omar Talib]

Hello,

I am a new member here. I came to the site looking for information on the history and life of Che Guevara, and to my surprise, found a post about the Taliban's laws regarding women.

Let me start out by saying that as a Muslim, I can help you to understand the basics of the situation, but any more complicated questions would better be directed toward a sheikh, imam, or mullah.

The Qur'an never ordered women to completely conceal themselves, nor did the Prophet (pbuh) ever order women to completely conceal themselves. Muhammed said that all women should wear a veil over their hair (this is called a chadora or hijab) when walking outside of the house. It was common practice at the time of Allah's Prophet for wealthy Arabic women to wear what is called a jilbab, a long cloth wrapped around the head that conceals the entire body with the exception of the hands and face. Remember however, this was a distinguishing mark of the upper class, most lower class and middle class women could not afford such an exquisite piece of cloth. So, Quranically, and according to the Sunnah of the Prophet (his actions and doings) it is sufficient to cover the hair.

As far as the burqa is concerned, that is a traditional imposition. Why do you think many women in Afghanistan still wear the burqa even though the Taliban is now gone? It's because they are Pashtun women, and it's the regional custom to wear a burqa. In some places, women cannot walk in public without the escort of a male relative. This practice is called mehram, and again, is traditional, not religious. The Qur'an recognizes that women do business just like men (ie going to market, buying food, cloth, etc.) and so they must be allowed to move around freely. This is also why it is a contradiction to wear a burqa. Business is conducted with the hands and the face, so they must be free and allowed to exchange things.

As one side note, look at the name 'Taliban'. In Arabic, it means 'students', and is an allusion to their training in Pakistani madrassas, Islamic schools often times run by radical Islamic mullahs. When Soviets invaded in 80's, the Afghan refugees were forced to flee into Pakistan, where these boys got their education. When the war ended and the refugees returned, many had been brought up and educated in these hardline madrassas, and these went on to form the core of the Taliban.

I am not trying to be boastful, just to show that the harsh and unjust treatment of women under the Taliban was a mixture of local tradition and radical interpretation of Islam bred into young men reclaiming a country. Also do not forget that women were not the only ones treated harshly under the Taliban. Men were forced to grow beards long enough to protrude at the end of a closed fist, wear one style of dress, sling a blanket over their shoulders, and wear a turban with a loose end hanging over their left shoulder. Anyone caught wearing any western dress was beaten, man or woman.

I hope I have been of some help.

[tyronelad]

a muslim i was chatiing 2 on the net said the Koran talks a fair bit about Jesus, and it mentions Moses or some big Jewish Prophet. Is it true. If it this then aren't all these religions related in more than thier believe thier is only one God? i suppose its logical, considering all 3 were founded in the same areas (Middle East)...

[Supermodel]

TYronelad, Judaism, Islam and Christianity all worship the same God. In fact, the prophet Mohammed, who started Islam, was descended from Abraham's brother. And of course you know that Jesus was a Jew so Christians worship the same God. The only big difference on the historical elements are that Muslims and Jews acknowledge the existence of Jesus, but believe that he was only a wise prophet. They deny that he was the Son of God or as Christians have come to beleive, a deity as part of the Holy Trinity.

These thoughts I got from "The World's Religions - Illustrated" which I VERY highly recommend

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/006...2244183-1093744 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060674407/qid=1012587633/sr=2-2/ref=sr_2_75_2/102-2244183-1093744)

OK what do I really think: In western civ, Muslim women are treated generally well but in strict Arab countries they are brutalised, dehumanised and mutilated by FGM (post if you want to hear more). Only a man could truly think that Muslim women in the third world are well treated. Yeah, kinda like you treat a stray dog.

[Derar]

Well u cant really generalize ..... not in all arab countries women r treated badly .... in some they r , i agree ...
but go to palestine , syria , lebanon , egypt , morocco .....and u'll see ...... they have more rights than men do probably !!

and some info about the kuran and islam concerning jesus , jesus was mentioned in the kuran 27 times to be exact ..... and muslims deny that jesus was the son of god , becoz we in islam believe that god doesnt have no son , no wife or nothing ever close to him ....
jesus is his prophet ......
plus we dont believe that jesus was crucified .....
in our kuran its written that god took jesus to the skies ( to heaven ) and gave his looks to that guy that betrayed him ( i dont remember his name ) .....
so jesus is still alive till this day , and he will come down and rule the earth for 40 years till the end of the world comes ...
i mean i cant get something , if most of the ppl believe that jesus is the son of god , then how would god let his son be killed !!

anyways , that was my point of view .... i hope i helped , and didnt offend anyone with anything i said !

[Omar Talib]

Quote: from Supermodel on 7:22 pm on Feb. 1, 2002
OK what do I really think: In western civ, Muslim women are treated generally well but in strict Arab countries they are brutalised, dehumanised and mutilated by FGM (post if you want to hear more). Only a man could truly think that Muslim women in the third world are well treated. Yeah, kinda like you treat a stray dog.

Supermodel, while your intentions are good, you're being verbally ambiguous and thus misleading.

You use the phrase 'strict Arab countries'. This is mislabelled. Afghanistan under the Taliban was perhaps the harshest interpretation of Islam, and Afghans are not Arabs at all. They are Pashtuns, Tajiks, Uzbeks, Turkomen, Hazara, Nuristani, and variety of small ethnic minorities. In short, they are Afghans.

What you meant was 'strict Muslim countries', but even this is vague. What do you mean by strict? What constitutes 'strict'? It's interesting to note that in the US, where many people take pride in the 'equality of the sexes' there has never been a female president, whereas an in numerous Muslim countries, which are 'oppressive to women' there have been female presidents. If you judge 'strict Muslim countries' by their male population's harsh treatment of women, then of course these 'strict' populations will brutalize women.

We must also bear in mind that you should not judge Islam by the Muslim. Just because a practice is popular in a region does not mean it is encouraged or even tolerated by conventional Islam.

[Sasafrás]

Yes, I have come to discover that much of the bad treatment that women may recieve in Islamic countries is not based on the Holy Words of The Qur'an, but on local traditions. The Qur'an doesn't tell men to treat women like stray dogs, trash, or anything of the sort; on the contrary, to respect them.
My A.P. U.S. History teacher (a Caucasian woman) is married to an Arab-American (a Jordanian man) and she says that she'd love to move to Jordan because there is so much equality and women there are not at all disrespected or treated harshly. The whole idea of women being treated badly in all Arab countries (not to point fingers at any community members but some people believe that) is really based on individual *despotic* Muslims who actually are not correctly obeying the rules of their faith.
Many American people (I'm specifically referring to men) try to act as if they care about the women who had to live under the rule of Afghanistan's Taliban, but, women in the US are suffering all the same. Sure, we may not be forced to wear certain types of clothing or cover our faces and things like that, but we aren't equal to the man. If they (the gov't & such) are so "concerned" about freeing women in Afghanistan, they need to do something for American women. Why hasn't there been a female president? Why are there barely any women involved in American politics in general? Women don't have equal opportunities, just as Blacks/African-Americans, Latinos, Asians, Native Americans/American Indians, & Arab-Americans don't.
If that seemed to express a feeling that Afghan women deserve to be treated unequally to men or that they do not need to be helped, I didn't mean that at all. I want to see ALL women, regardless of age, color, or creed, liberated. :) And, I wasn't dissing their culture or traditions either.

PS: THANKS Omar Talib! Your posts were really informative! :)

(Edited by La Rainbeaux at 6:12 pm on Feb. 1, 2002)


(Edited by La Rainbeaux at 6:12 pm on Feb. 1, 2002)

[GuerillaTactics]

In response to a comment that was made......The Prophet Muhammed (pbuh)......decends from the line of Ishmael......Abraham's son..........not his brother

[pastradamus]

hey omar,Firstly I would like to mention that im also a new member.The reason I was curious is because I live in Ireland & as you probably know there are not many Islamic people here.the few you see are usually in the city centre shopping with their wifes & when I saw this it made me wonder that if this guy was so good with his wife then wots all this "Muslims hate women" shit about that the yanks are spreading,so afterm reading your forum it helped me so I would like to say thanx for showing this propaganda to me comrad.

[CommieBastard]

Westerners ramble on about the right of western women to look pretty etc instead of having to cover up. But do western women really have the freedom NOT to try and make themselves look pretty? societal forces of sitgmatisation are so strong that i dont think i have ever met a woman willing to not try her best to 'look good', whereas society has much less strict views about men looking scruffy.
Women have yet to become free because of the culture which is prevalent in western society that women have to look pretty.
Apparently, btw, according to a study there is a 10% wage gap between 'ugly' and good-looking' men and women.

[Omar Talib]

Quote: from pastradamus on 12:14 am on Feb. 2, 2002
hey omar,Firstly I would like to mention that im also a new member.The reason I was curious is because I live in Ireland & as you probably know there are not many Islamic people here.the few you see are usually in the city centre shopping with their wifes & when I saw this it made me wonder that if this guy was so good with his wife then wots all this "Muslims hate women" shit about that the yanks are spreading,so afterm reading your forum it helped me so I would like to say thanx for showing this propaganda to me comrad.


La Rainbeaux and pastradamus,

You're welcome, and thank you for reading my admittedly long posts. It makes me feel good knowing that certain conceptions have been cleared up. It is easy for those of us raised in the West (I was born and currently live in Texas) to misconstrue what we see on the tv and in the papers as an umbrella-like generalization on the whole Muslim world.

I met a man at my mosque a few weeks ago who is originally from Palestine, but came over to the United States when he was young and, in any case, never really followed Islam. He met his wife when they were both in their night-club hopping days (I'm not saying there's anything wrong or unIslamic with nightclubs, it's the drinking, drugs, and illicit sex that keep most Muslims away from it). After marriage, he settled down and started to practice Islam earnestly. His wife, who is American, became interested and wanted to learn. After two months of study, she converted. Her faith as a Muslim is very strong, so strong in fact that she wanted to wear the hijab, but didn't because she feared her family would disown her. Then they did the Hajj (pilgrimage to Mecca and Madina) and her faith grew even more. It grew so much that she swore she would wear hijab and even if the whole world told her to take it off she wouldn't. She came back to the States with her husband, and despite her concerns, her family accepted her. In their hearts they did not like it, but they accepted her and her faith.

Not meaning to spin yarn, just trying to depict a situation why a woman would want to wear hijab. Often times women wear it even though it may alienate them from family and friends, as a sign of their faith.

I will conclude by saying that in Islam, all life, Muslim of non-Muslim, man or woman, human or animal, is sacred. At the time of the Prophet (pbuh) it was the custom of the Arab pagans to bury alive their infant daughters in times of famine. Allah tells us in the Quran that this is an abominable practice, and it is the worst type of men that perform it. In Islam, we can not even cut down a tree or dig up a flower without a very compelling reason.

[pastradamus]

From Texas,ah I feel sorry for you ,you probably got shit on a stick after sept 11.I know a muslim who,not got abuse but a flurry of questions after sept 11.I felt sorry for the guy cuz you could tell he was saying to himself "will these people plese piss off!" Dont know how he didn't flip out.

[I Will Deny You]

Apparently I look like a Muslim, because here in DC I was told to "go back where I came from" a few times after September 11. (I'm from Vermont, by the way.)

In my experience, religious clothing is not only worn by people who have very strong faith, but also by people who are looking to learn more about their religion. Back when I was still going to a Reform temple, there were three women (two of them had jobs and one was a housewife) who were all friends and wanted to learn a lot more about their religion all of a sudden, I can't remember exactly why. Anyway, they wore religious attire because it made them feel more religious and closer to G-d. Eventually they had studied everything and almost knew as much as the Rabbi, and soon they would wear everything a little less. They didn't abandon anything, but once they were more educated and confident they felt that they knew G-d through his writing, so they didn't need to wear so much on their heads. I'm not sure if it's different with other religions, but I think it works the same way with men as well. Wearing something most of the time means that they are confident, wearing something all of the time means that they are exploring. Of course, there are those people who are confident and will wear something all of the time anyway, because they're so devout.

Anyway, a woman wearing any religious attire, a hijab or anything else, is usually a good sign as long as they've done it because they chose to, not because some religious fundamentalist government forced them to.

PS - I work at a Jewish deli and a lot of our food is supplied by Muslims. They will wear Muslim clothing but have no problem doing business with Jews, which goes to show that most devout Muslims are not crazy Jew-haters or anything like what's shown on CNN.

[pastradamus]

Dam Yankee idiot's!