Bush is retarded but we should still be in Iraq?

[elhumano]

I just wanted to see what people thought about Bush and Iraq, everyone knows Bush is a subpar Pres, but should we still be in Iraq?

[monkeydust]

No, I don't believe we should still be in Iraq, though it seems some people here believe that the West should stay for, "stability".

[Intifada]

the west should never have been in iraq in the first place. they should get out.

[Commie Girl]

The U$ has NO BUSINESS in ANY OTHER SOVEREIGN NATION or STATE....get the F**k OUT NOW

[elhumano]

Should we have retaleated against 9/11?

[BuyOurEverything]

Should we have retaleated against 9/11?

Was that a seperate question or were you trying to imply that Iraq had something to do with 9-11?

Anyways, of course we should not be occupying Iraq. As for 9-11, I'm not sure how exactly "we" could retaliate.

[Commie Girl]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 03:04 PM
Should we have retaleated against 9/11?
What? Are you implying Iraq had something to do with September 11?

[LSD]

Of course the US shouldn't be in Iraq, but whether it leaves now or on June 30th or in 5 years, it won't make a difference. Bush has definitely succeeded in creating virtual anarchy, and he's released tensions that have been building there for more than 50 years.

One thing's for sure, there won't be any "stability" there for a long time to come.

[Fidel Castro]

I certainly have no sympathy for Hussein and his crew, but I believe that the United Nations policy of containment was sufficient to ensure that Iraq was not a threat to regional stability or ourselves.

Saddam Hussein was only ever a menace and threat because the West allowed him to be so.

[Purple]

uhm.. okay, stupid question, but couldnt the US just kill Saddam with a sniper rifle or something, instead of invading the country and take control directly from the high instead of roaming through, destroying everything on their path....

[Fidel Castro]

Technically yes, the US could have assasinated Hussein. However, remember that he had many body-doubles, and also very rarely stayed at the same palace for long periods of time.

Also, simply killing Saddam would not have the desired effect that the U$ want, through invasion the U$ have managed to gain control over administration (so that they can mould Iraq more into what they want it to be) and also control over oil.

[SittingBull47]

well now he has no choice but to stay, unfortunately. He goes in and fucks up the country so bad, if he were to pull out right now (which he would never do <_< ) then he&#39;d be attacked by so many countries (diplomatically) that it would kill his reputation in the republican party. That&#39;s what i think would happen anyway, but there&#39;s different ways to go.

[elhumano]

You guys make some really good points. I think Bush is a horrible President. And mainly the people put in power are just as bad. What should have the US done towards Iraq and the other terrorist countries? Because by the sounds of most people who interact on this website (not anyone whose responded to this post) feels that its ok for everyone and anyone to just blow shit up in our country, U&#036; and its ok.

[An Independent Thought]

America can not pull out of Iraq now or after they get a new president what has been started will continue for a long long time
Bush has achieved his goal of brining Iraqi oil under American control ie. under his family and bussisness associates control, American+Allies troops will pay with their blood as they did in Vietnam and the Optimates (the rich) will get richer.

[elhumano]

Originally posted by An Independent [email protected] 14 2004, 02:19 PM
America can not pull out of Iraq now or after they get a new president what has been started will continue for a long long time
Bush has achieved his goal of brining Iraqi oil under American control ie. under his family and bussisness associates control, American+Allies troops will pay with their blood as they did in Vietnam and the Optimates (the rich) will get richer.
I will agree with that one. The Bush fam needs more money in order to pay for their families way through Yale, and coke is a hell of a drung...hell of an expensive one.

[An Independent Thought]

When the first Bush was in office the CIA was traficking Coke through Clintions state of Ark

[elhumano]

is there any literature about the 1st stupid Bush pushing coke through ARK?

[An Independent Thought]

Compromised: Clinton Bush and the CIA
by Terry Reed, John Cummings

here&#39;s the cover page http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1883955025.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
here&#39;s the Synopsis
The first documented expose of Bill Clinton&#39;s involvement in illegal government activity includes alleged evidence that George Bush was lying when he said he was "out of the loop" regarding Iran-Contra activities. Photos

[An Independent Thought]

and for the record there is no allegations that Bush is involved in runing coke

[Invader Zim]

Whether or not we should have been in Iraq is debatable, and I wont go into now. But we have no buisness their anymore. Saddam Hussein has been removed, his establisment destroyed and his influence all but gone.

America is only prolonging the violance in the region by staying. It has no further buisness in Iraq and should have left about a year ago.

[Intifada]

What should have the US done towards Iraq and the other terrorist countries?

iraq was not a terrorist country.

[BuyOurEverything]

Yes, I too would like to see your justification for classifying Iraq as a "terrorist country."

[elhumano]

I guess Im just miss informed about the possibilities of Iraq funding some of the terrorist groups againts the US. Even if they didnt what else would we call Iraq? A wonderful place to visit? I just think it is kind of stupid of the people their to be killing Americans and capturing them when the US is trying to make them a more stable country.

[Inter arma, enim silent leges]

Right now, if we pull out of Iraq Saddam v2.0 will arise, and we&#39;d be back in the same spot as we were a few years ago. People will be making the same arguments as after Bush 1 in the 1st Gulf War. (Pulling out before they should have.)

As for being there in the first place, I believe an attack was justified, Iraq was horrible to it&#39;s (disloyal) citizens and the UN was largely toothless. Something had to be done about him.

[redstar2000]

I just think it is kind of stupid of the people there to be killing Americans and capturing them when the US is trying to make them a more stable country.

What the U.S. means by "a more stable country" is one that will peaceably submit to the looting and plundering of American oil corporations.

The smartest thing the Iraqis can do right now is kill every American in Iraq that they can...as well as any other westerners that they can.

It will not be until westerners realize that Iraq is "too dangerous" that they will finally leave Iraq alone.


Right now, if we pull out of Iraq Saddam v2.0 will arise, and we&#39;d be back in the same spot as we were a few years ago...As for being there in the first place, I believe an attack was justified, Iraq was horrible to its (disloyal) citizens and the UN was largely toothless. Something had to be done about him.

Another disgusting lackey of U.S. imperialism crawls out from under his rock&#33;

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[Akasha]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 10:33 AM

The smartest thing the Iraqis can do right now is kill every American in Iraq that they can...as well as any other westerners that they can.

It will not be until westerners realize that Iraq is "too dangerous" that they will finally leave Iraq alone.

That&#39;s exactly right. They need to cripple the U&#036; forces that are in Iraq and drive them out. These are not "insurgents" trying to keep the U&#036; from making peace...these are Iraqis trying to defend their own country. The U&#036; has absolutely no right to be there. Every Iraqi should take up arms and defend their homeland against these intruders. If you take Bush&#39;s reasoning for entering Iraq and apply it to the U&#036; then the other nations of the world have every right to enter the U&#036; and take it by force. I&#39;d like to see Dubya in an orange jumpsuit on his knees in Guantanomo.

[elhumano]

Yah, great idea they should kill all the Americans their. I take it that people saying tis have no family in the Armed Services that fight for our country. I think it would be better if these Iraqis come here and start killing the ignorant people who complain about our way of life which provides us with the ability to do what we do on a day to day basis. Kill Americans...you guys are gay as shit. Maybe you should go to Iraq and kill Americans too. People like you should be put in their place. Go say this shit to a family who&#39;s losing innocent people in these countries. You know what...i bet you wouldnt, why? because you guys are a bunch of pussies. Fuck political talk. Saying that Americans should die is just crossing the line. If i ran this country your ass would be the first ones i&#39;d send over their to get shot.

[Intifada]

Yah, great idea they should kill all the Americans their

yup. :)


I take it that people saying tis have no family in the Armed Services that fight for our country.

they aren&#39;t fighting for their country. they are fighting for oil and imperialism.


Maybe you should go to Iraq and kill Americans too.

i would if i could. :)


Go say this shit to a family who&#39;s losing innocent people in these countries

the only innocents who are dying are the iraqi civilians.

[BuyOurEverything]

I take it that people saying tis have no family in the Armed Services that fight for our country.

Please explain to me how they are fighting for their country. I&#39;m also still wating for you to justify your classification of Iraq as a terrorist country.


I think it would be better if these Iraqis come here and start killing the ignorant people who complain about our way of life which provides us with the ability to do what we do on a day to day basis.

First, what do you mean by ignorant people who complain about our way of life? Second, what do we do on a day to day basis that you are refering to? And why is this a good thing?


Kill Americans...you guys are gay as shit. Maybe you should go to Iraq and kill Americans too.

To be clear, nobody is advocating killing Americans for being American. The Americans in Iraq are aggressors who, unprovoked, committed, and are still committing, violent acts against innocent Iraqis.


Go say this shit to a family who&#39;s losing innocent people in these countries. You know what...i bet you wouldnt, why? because you guys are a bunch of pussies.

American soldiers in Iraq are not innocent. Would I joke about killing Americans with a mother who just heard her son died in Iraq? No probably not, but that doesn&#39;t mean he didn&#39;t deserve it.


Fuck political talk.

Interesting sentiment. Would you care to explain what you mean?


Saying that Americans should die is just crossing the line.

Are Americans superior to all other nationalities?


If i ran this country your ass would be the first ones i&#39;d send over their to get shot.

And you hate Saddam why...?


you guys are gay as shit

I was unaware that feces was homosexual.

[socialistfuture]

USA is a terririst state along with israel and the UK. Noam chomsky put it simply when he said if America wants to stops terrorism it should stop participating in it.

American terrorist activities/intervension.... Vietnam, Haiti, Cuba, Chile, Nicaragua, Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq... the list is endless

Imperialist forces out of Iraq&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

[dark fairy]

what the fuck are we doing over there and he still wants to send more troops... what a waste of tax payers&#39; money
fuck i hate that shit i know three people who have joined a branch of the military tell me that&#39;s not bullshit... :angry:

[elhumano]

Regardless....you guys are fags for saying that you should kill Americans. If you have such a problem with being an American LEAVE. Trust me you guys will have a better time fighting for shoes and something to wipe your pussies with. Its because of thoughts like yours our country is shit. Stop hiding behind your computers and rise up with the fist...FAGS

[Hampton]

Stop using the word fags...thanks.

[dark fairy]

now now... people are entitled to their opinions and these comrades im sure didn&#39;t mean it that seriously... and if they did you have to admit that there is a reason for that... i was born and raised in U&#036; and i know that we&#39;re full of shit... and we are responsible for a bunch of stupid shit that goes on around the world. Or at least it seems that way since we&#39;re "all mighty". We are stupid we go around messing with tiny countries and pissing a bunch of countries off for what... we&#39;re going to get out asses kick pretty soon&#33;&#33;&#33;

[(*]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 07:50 PM
Regardless....you guys are fags for saying that you should kill Americans. If you have such a problem with being an American LEAVE. Trust me you guys will have a better time fighting for shoes and something to wipe your pussies with. Its because of thoughts like yours our country is shit. Stop hiding behind your computers and rise up with the fist...FAGS
Did you not read the previous post from BuyOurEverything?
It&#39;s not about the soldiers being american, it&#39;s the fact that they are soldiers&#33; Hired killers&#33;

It doesn&#39;t matter if they are from America, Britain, Australia, or any other occupying nation.
It is a volunteer army, they knew what they signed up for. Do you have the same sympathy for Iraqi Soldiers?

[Inter arma, enim silent leges]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 03:33 PM

Right now, if we pull out of Iraq Saddam v2.0 will arise, and we&#39;d be back in the same spot as we were a few years ago...As for being there in the first place, I believe an attack was justified, Iraq was horrible to its (disloyal) citizens and the UN was largely toothless. Something had to be done about him.

Another disgusting lackey of U.S. imperialism crawls out from under his rock&#33;
Wonderful way to attack me without addressing my point.

[mysticofthewest]

If the U.S.A stays in Iraq then Saddam V.2.0 will arise or didn&#39;t u know we put V1.0 in power in the first place as a counter balance to Iran

[Hasta Siempre Comandante]

I&#39;m reading this board and I can&#39;t believe that some people actually support or are un-certain about whether or not the U.S should be in Iraq. OF COURSE NOT&#33;&#33;&#33;
First of all, the U.S invaded Iraq "in pursuit of weapons of mass destruction," well where the fuck are they? And even if there were weapons of mass destruction, those weapons would have the U.S flag on them because the U.S gave Iraq those weapons&#33;&#33; Why do you think the U.S wants Chavez out- in Venezuela? For the same reasons they want control of Iraq- for OIL and POWER. If Iraqi troops invaded the U.S no one would criticize Americans for defending themselves but when Iraqis fight back- they are called terrorists. If anyone is angry about the U.S troops dying in Iraq- there is a solution- GET THE FUCK OUT&#33;&#33; If they weren&#39;t there they wouldn&#39;t die. I don&#39;t wanna see innocent people dying but last time I checked - the U.S invaded Iraq, Iraq didn&#39;t invade the U.S.

Was it ok for the U.S to oust Allende in Chile or Arbenz in Guatemala? OBVIOUSLY NOT- it&#39;s to bad they haven&#39;t learned by now, cause the same shit that happened in the 50&#39;s and 60&#39;s is happening now&#33; IMPERIALISM STILL EXISTS

[mysticofthewest]

Compañero, Hasta Siempre Comandante i agree with the u the U.S. should not be in Iraq but they will find WMD if if the Us has to plant em but they will find them

[Hasta Siempre Comandante]

mysticofthewest- unfortunately you&#39;re absolutely right. It&#39;s fucked up - I don&#39;t understand how anyone with a brain doesn&#39;t c it&#33;

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 11:50 PM
you guys are fags for saying that you should kill Americans....FAGS
I understand that the word faggot is sometimes used in a different context which is not homophobic but you need to understand a few things.

Homosexual oppression exists within society in two different ways. First of all it exists in a blatant form where people are murdered for being gay. People like Matthew Shepard who was beaten to death. There is also right wing and christian right wing groups which perpetrate a homophobic agenda by saying "God hates Fags" or organize to activly oppress the rights of gay people. This is easy to identify and easy to fight against. Something which most left wing people do, nobelly, and much appreciated.

However, there is a second form of homophobia. The latent form, which exists even in liberal minded people. Homosexuality is a minority in the world, and possibly one of the only minorities which exists today that is still legislated against. It is illegal for homosexuals to engage in homosexual sex in many states in America. It is also a right for parents to send their teenage children to "correctional" treatment centres to have their behaviour changed. In the past this has included electric shock therapy and and physical torture such as having to squit for 8 hours in a day without food or the right to go to the toilet. Some may think that this is blatant forms of homophobia, but actually, the actual opinion that homosexuality can some how be "corrected" is a widespread view between people. Another view is that homosexuals should not have the same rights as straight people in regards to the age of consent. It was only until 2001 that the age of consent for gay men was reduced from 18 to 16, which is the straight age of consent, and it was only in 1994 that the age of consent for gay men was reduced from 21 to 18. Just ten years ago. It was only 30 years ago that homosexuals stopped being imprisoned for expressing their love physically to each other.

Another wide spread view is that homosexuals make too much "noise" about issues which they should "ignore," it is a commomn liberal view that gay people create their own troubles by making to much fuss about things, parading and marching is not acceptable to the wider general public, who see this as an attempt to force our sexuality on people. this is an opinion which seems to forget that gay men and women do not enjoy the same inheritence laws or medical laws regarding serious illness or death. They also forget that gay men are not allowed to french kiss in public with the fear of being fined. Another opinion, which is widespread even further is the opinion that using homophobic language in everday use is ok. It isnt. I am sure you are not homophobic, or at least I hope that you arent, but you must understand that saying something which is a word used to dehumanize and isolate gay people as a term of offence is not only offensive to gay people but also serves to validate homophobia within society. You are unconsiously saying that it is ok to be homophobic, and not only that you are saying that someones sexuality is a good thing to use as an offence. My sexuality is not something which you can use to offend someone else with.

Please understand that using words like faggot, puff, queer, shirt lifter are homophobic words. No matter what context you are using, and as I hope I have demonstrated to you only serves the agenda of those white straight men who want keep us gay people down.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

All the invading soldiers in Iraq should die slow, horrible deaths at the hands of the people they mistreat daily.

Fallujah is hopefully only the start.

Let the streets run red with the blood of scum&#33;

[Commie Girl]

:angry: The truth about Fallujah:

The past two weeks have seen a remarkable effort on the part of the US government and numerous media outlets to directly contradict reality.
The single most remarkable instance of the contradiction came from US military spokesman Mark Kimmitt, who said:

"The stations that are showing Americans intentionally killing women and children are not legitimate news sources. That is propaganda, and that is lies."

The astoundingly frank exhortation to shun plainly evident reality in favour of official spin came amid US claims that 95% of the 600 killed and thousands wounded during the military siege of Fallujah were "fighters". An estimated 60,000 families were displaced.

The corporate media in Canada and the US, meanwhile, has made a obfuscating and distracting from the siege of Fallujah and the resulting human disaster. I know of no systematic study, but there has been a distinct emphasis on "kidnapped" foreigners while war crimes, massacres, murder, and the continuing illegality of the occupation ignored or heavily marginalized.

In situations where disinformation reaches its absolute fever pitch, it becomes crucial to focus on the reality of the situation, and to take note of the gap between that reality and the manipulated images that corporate media ask us to accept in its place.

Fallujah is one place, but understanding what went on there and understanding the aforementioned gap can provide us with a healthy skepticism and a set of questions that can be applied to almost all other news coverage.

What follows is a series of excerpts from first hand accounts from people in Fallujah and other independent analysis of the situation in Iraq. Links to the original articles can be found here:

http://dominionpaper.ca/weblog/2004/04/fallujah.html

Updates will be added to the same page. If you have comments, discussion, or suggestions, please post them in the comments area at the url listed.

-- Dru Oja Jay, Coordinating Editor

-- -- -- --

"We were in Fallujah during the &#39;ceasefire.&#39; This is what we saw and heard. When the assault on Fallujah started, the power plant was bombed. Electricity is provided by generators and usually reserved for places with important functions. There are four hospitals currently running in Fallujah. This includes the one where we were, which was actually just a minor emergency clinic; another one of them is a car repair garage."

>> Report from Fallujah -- Destroying a Town in Order to Save it, by Rahul Mahajan

--

" As we neared Falluja, there were groups of children on the sides of the road handing out water and bread to people coming into Falluja.
They began literally throwing stacks of flat bread into the bus. The fellowship and community spirit was unbelievable. Everyone was yelling for us, cheering us on, groups speckled along the road. As we neared Falluja a huge mushroom caused by a large U.S. bomb rose from the city.
So much for the cease-fire."

>> Americans Slaughtering Civilians in Falluja, by Dahr Jamail, The New Standard

--

"We stop, turn off the siren, keep the blue light flashing, wait, eyes on the silhouettes of men in US Marine uniforms on the corners of the buildings. Several shots come. We duck, get as low as possible and I can see tiny red lights whipping past the window, past my head. Some, it&#39;s hard to tell, are hitting the ambulance. I start singing. What else do you do when someone&#39;s shooting at you? A tire bursts with an enormous noise and a jerk of the vehicle.

"I&#39;m outraged. We&#39;re trying to get to a woman who&#39;s giving birth without any medical attention, without electricity, in a city under siege, in a clearly marked ambulance, and you&#39;re shooting at us. How dare you?"

>> "Easter in Fallujah," by Jo Wilding

--

"There is not much dispute about the death toll at Falluja, which remains a no-go zone for foreign reporters. But while townspeople say they were mostly children, women and old men, US spokesmen insist that
95 per cent of the dead were fighters who had met the precision shooting of the US marines."

>> Flight from a town where sports fields are graveyards, Paul McGeough, Sydney Morning Herald

--

"The hostage situations are a mess. I watch television and it feels like I&#39;m watching another country. All I can think is, "We&#39;ve become one of *those* countries..." You know- the ones where hostages are taken on a daily basis and governments warn their civilians of visiting or entering the country. It&#39;s especially sad because even during those long years during the blockade and in between wars and bombings, there were never any attacks on foreigners. Iraqis are hospitable, friendly people who always used to treat foreigners with care... now, everyone is treated like a potential enemy."

>> "Baghdad Burning" Weblog

--

"More than 60,000 women and children fled the city during a brief ceasefire on Friday but the US blocked any men of military age from leaving. Dozens of bodies have been buried in the city&#39;s soccer stadium after US forces blocked roads heading toward the cemetery."

>> Democracy Now interviews Aaron Glantz

--

"But when asked about the victims, US marine Lieutenant Colonel Brennan Byrne said: &#39;What I think you will find is 95% of those were military-age males that were killed in the fighting. The marines are trained to be precise in their firepower ... The fact that there are 600 goes back to the fact that the marines are very good at what they do.&#39;"

>> Mail and Guardian (South Africa)

--

"The insurrection in Shia areas of Iraq was not a sudden explosion, nor was it primarily inspired by the events in Falluja. It was, instead, the result of a long series of actions and reactions between the Coalition&#39;s armed forces and increasingly organized and anti-American Shia militias."

>> What Triggered the Shia Insurrection?, by Michael Schwartz

--

"
&#39;We are going to Fallujah.&#39;

&#39;To Fallujah? For jihad?&#39;

&#39;No, we are going to help people there.&#39;

&#39;Do you need weapons? Do you need someone to show you the way in?&#39;"

>> Fallujah Stories, by Wendell Steavenson

--

"We were taken to the families in the shelter by Dr Abed al-Illah, a specialist in internal medicine who is also a representative of the Iraqi Islamic Party, which is part of the US-appointed Iraqi Governing Council. He had just visited Fallujah hospital. He said: &#39;About 350 out of the 600 dead were women and children. One was only eight months old.
Many died from simple wounds and could have been saved if they had medical attention.&#39;"

>> &#39;Do we look like fighters?&#39; ask Fallujah families with their disabled, their old and their children, by Patrick Cockburn

[cebert]

Absolutely the US should not be in Iraq. The US should get out immediately. The Iraqis can run the country by themselves. The dont need Bremer or Bush to tell them how to run things.

[DaCuBaN]

Its because of thoughts like yours our country is shit

I think maybe that&#39;s a tad misleading... Your country is so shit because firstly it&#39;s too big, your main spoken language isn&#39;t even your official language, you have voter apathy as bad as in the UK, you have probably the most paranoid government outside DPRK, an over bloated military budget, the biggest gap between rich and poor, the list goes on.

All that is aside from the fact that it&#39;s a capitalist (I won&#39;t call it imperialist, I feel i&#39;ve said enough to affront) state - based on selfishness rather than selflessness (hence why it appears to work - it merely taps into one of the fundemental veins of human nature - self preservation).

But all this is so much warm air - and so far off topic :P

There never was a valid reason for invading Iraq, so there cannot be a valid reason for the retention of force in Iraq. GWB has finished his fathers work. My only hope is that the new Iraqi government does the right thing and the moment they do (if ever) get power back, it should be an about face and send some of those damn weapons back where they were spawned :angry:

I dont like getting upset :rolleyes:

[DaCuBaN]

"But when asked about the victims, US marine Lieutenant Colonel Brennan Byrne said: &#39;What I think you will find is 95% of those were military-age males that were killed in the fighting. The marines are trained to be precise in their firepower ... The fact that there are 600 goes back to the fact that the marines are very good at what they do.&#39;"

and i&#39;m sure their british comrades who died at their hands agree wholeheartedly :lol:

[Akasha]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 03:33 PM
Yah, great idea they should kill all the Americans their. I take it that people saying tis have no family in the Armed Services that fight for our country. I think it would be better if these Iraqis come here and start killing the ignorant people who complain about our way of life which provides us with the ability to do what we do on a day to day basis. Kill Americans...you guys are gay as shit. Maybe you should go to Iraq and kill Americans too. People like you should be put in their place. Go say this shit to a family who&#39;s losing innocent people in these countries. You know what...i bet you wouldnt, why? because you guys are a bunch of pussies. Fuck political talk. Saying that Americans should die is just crossing the line. If i ran this country your ass would be the first ones i&#39;d send over their to get shot.
First off, I am not and never will be an American. Second, no one in my family would ever join any American armed forces. Look at the history that the U&#036; has of human rights violations, crimes against humanity, war crimes, weapons of mass destruction (and distraction) etc. As I said, the world has every right to invade the U&#036; under the grounds that they gave for invading Iraq. And if that happened and the U&#036; fought against the invaders would you call them "insurgents" or would you call them heroes dying for their country? The Iraqis do not want the U&#036; there. SO GET THE &#036;%^& OUT&#33;&#33;&#33; And if you believe so much in what these heroes of yours are doing then why aren&#39;t you over there yourself? Have one of these families with their "innocent" children in Iraq come on here or message me and I&#39;ll say the same thing to them.

"One, two, three, many more Vietnams" - Che

[Hiero]

Originally posted by The Anarchist Tension+Apr 16 2004, 05:27 AM--> (The Anarchist Tension @ Apr 16 2004, 05:27 AM)
[email protected] 15 2004, 11:50 PM
you guys are fags for saying that you should kill Americans....FAGS
I understand that the word faggot is sometimes used in a different context which is not homophobic but you need to understand a few things.

Homosexual oppression exists within society in two different ways. First of all it exists in a blatant form where people are murdered for being gay. People like Matthew Shepard who was beaten to death. There is also right wing and christian right wing groups which perpetrate a homophobic agenda by saying "God hates Fags" or organize to activly oppress the rights of gay people. This is easy to identify and easy to fight against. Something which most left wing people do, nobelly, and much appreciated.

However, there is a second form of homophobia. The latent form, which exists even in liberal minded people. Homosexuality is a minority in the world, and possibly one of the only minorities which exists today that is still legislated against. It is illegal for homosexuals to engage in homosexual sex in many states in America. It is also a right for parents to send their teenage children to "correctional" treatment centres to have their behaviour changed. In the past this has included electric shock therapy and and physical torture such as having to squit for 8 hours in a day without food or the right to go to the toilet. Some may think that this is blatant forms of homophobia, but actually, the actual opinion that homosexuality can some how be "corrected" is a widespread view between people. Another view is that homosexuals should not have the same rights as straight people in regards to the age of consent. It was only until 2001 that the age of consent for gay men was reduced from 18 to 16, which is the straight age of consent, and it was only in 1994 that the age of consent for gay men was reduced from 21 to 18. Just ten years ago. It was only 30 years ago that homosexuals stopped being imprisoned for expressing their love physically to each other.

Another wide spread view is that homosexuals make too much "noise" about issues which they should "ignore," it is a commomn liberal view that gay people create their own troubles by making to much fuss about things, parading and marching is not acceptable to the wider general public, who see this as an attempt to force our sexuality on people. this is an opinion which seems to forget that gay men and women do not enjoy the same inheritence laws or medical laws regarding serious illness or death. They also forget that gay men are not allowed to french kiss in public with the fear of being fined. Another opinion, which is widespread even further is the opinion that using homophobic language in everday use is ok. It isnt. I am sure you are not homophobic, or at least I hope that you arent, but you must understand that saying something which is a word used to dehumanize and isolate gay people as a term of offence is not only offensive to gay people but also serves to validate homophobia within society. You are unconsiously saying that it is ok to be homophobic, and not only that you are saying that someones sexuality is a good thing to use as an offence. My sexuality is not something which you can use to offend someone else with.

Please understand that using words like faggot, puff, queer, shirt lifter are homophobic words. No matter what context you are using, and as I hope I have demonstrated to you only serves the agenda of those white straight men who want keep us gay people down. [/b]
See TAT why do you have to always go on for ages like that.

[DaCuBaN]

The Anarchists Tension
Comandante
Group: Commie Club
Posts: 1983
Member No.: 2471
Joined: 20-June 03


Make your next post your last TAT :D
Well it brought a smile to my face at least :rolleyes: <_<


the actual opinion that homosexuality can some how be "corrected" is a widespread view between people

And it can.... just in the same way socialist tendencies can be purged :angry:
I&#39;ll draw reference to the ending of the book of the same name as the number of posts you (nearly) have. Sad, but true. Certainly if you stuck me in room 101 i&#39;d sing like a birdie :(

There is a point I wouldn&#39;t mind you covering though - I don&#39;t have a big problem with homosexual couples kissing, but it does make me feel uncomfortable (more so than hetrosexual, though not terribly significantly so). Does that make me homophobic? I think under classical definitions yes, yet I wouldn&#39;t ever pass comment, judgement or otherwise. :unsure:


it is a commomn liberal view that gay people create their own troubles by making to much fuss about things, parading and marching is not acceptable to the wider general public, who see this as an attempt to force our sexuality on people. this is an opinion which seems to forget that gay men and women do not enjoy the same inheritence laws or medical laws regarding serious illness or death. They also forget that gay men are not allowed to french kiss in public with the fear of being fined. Another opinion, which is widespread even further is the opinion that using homophobic language in everday use is ok. It isnt

This is a REALLY touchy one.... technically saying to someone &#39;you fuck&#39; is as bad as saying &#39;you fag&#39;. But is using the same two words as an exclamation also as bad? I think so anyway, but then I&#39;d be lying if I said I don&#39;t curse...


I hope I have demonstrated to you {that it} only serves the agenda of those white straight men who want keep us gay people down

Now now, not all homophobes are white ;)

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by comrade [email protected] 19 2004, 01:58 PM
See TAT why do you have to always go on for ages like that.
I was trying to make my point clear. You obviously failed to get. If you have nothing constructive to say, dont say anything at all...

...and wasn&#39;t that a one line reply you made then neonate...the very same one line that you tried to get me kicked out of CC for? :rolleyes:

[cubist]

i think america can&#39;t leave iraq itr would be irresponible, however i believe they should hand over on june 30th and stay as a police force operating with the new government until the country is at peace i know half the prob is america being there but i don&#39;t trust the new government to remain stable

its good to hera that the UN wish to help out more too

[guerrillaradio]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 06:51 PM
i think america can&#39;t leave iraq itr would be irresponible, however i believe they should hand over on june 30th and stay as a police force operating with the new government until the country is at peace i know half the prob is america being there but i don&#39;t trust the new government to remain stable
Are you even left wing?? I&#39;m worried...

A US police force remaining there??

Check this out (http://newstandardnews.net/dahr/)

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 02:46 PM
Make your next post your last TAT :D
Well it brought a smile to my face at least :rolleyes: <_<
It came and went and I feel not different...


And it can.... just in the same way socialist tendencies can be purged

Homosexuality is not the same as being a socialist. Being a socialist are ideas and concepts which you learn. Being gay is a fact of your life. It exists inside you. You are sexually attracted to people of your own sex, just as hetrosexual people are attracted to the opposite sex.


I don&#39;t have a big problem with homosexual couples kissing, but it does make me feel uncomfortable

I find it strange that people can be so emtional about it. Why can you not just be apathetic to it. Why do you have to react to it in anyway, positive or negative?


This is a REALLY touchy one.... technically saying to someone &#39;you fuck&#39; is as bad as saying &#39;you fag&#39;.

No it isnt. The work fuck is a non assocaited word which has hundreds of usages. The word fag is extremly specific to someones lifestyle. They are not the same thing.

[Commie Girl]

And isn&#39;t it interesting that the UN, which Bu&#036;h et al called irrelevant, is so desperately wanted now by these war mongers who got the world in this mess in the first place?