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The Sloth
13th April 2004, 13:36
I've only recently been getting into radical politics, so please excuse this if it sounds a little elementary. Anyway, these are some of my observations...

When I was reading George Jackson's Blood in my Eye a few months ago, there was a section on fascism, and then another section calling America "fascist." He argued that, in America, we are exposed to the most sophisticated, the most evolved form of fascism ever devised. Back then, when I wasn't really interested in radical politics, it kind of only went over my head a little bit, and I just dismissed it.

But, by now, it makes more and more sense to me. I'm sure many individuals realize that America is pretty much run by the corporations that it harbors...they control domestic issues, foreign policy, public opinion, etc.

The hierarchy of large corporations, also, have very limited mobility. The individuals at the bottom can make suggestions, propose to do certain things, etc. but they do not have any democratic control because, in reality, slaves can also make the same identical suggestions but it is never insured that the calls will be heeded. The bourgeoisie purposely keep unemployment constant because the second a company has 100% employment, every employee must be listened to, or a fraction will be able to quit and they will never be replaced. But since employment is unstable, and is not at 100%, there are always fears...the insecurities capitalism forces so many to harbor are not only played on, but reinforced with these fear tactics.

On the subject of media control...basically, public opinion is shaped by the media. It is obvious, however, that different parts of the media are owned by different individuals with agendas. Some of these agendas are liberal, some conservative...but seriously, what is the difference between a liberal bourgeois and a conservative one, considering that the issue of foreign policy will be similar (although admittedly not identical) and this reality is camoflauged because less important, more domestic issues are brought to the front instead. This makes the public believe that there is a "choice," but realistically speaking, it's not MUCH of a choice (you see where I'm going with the SOPHISTICATED fascism?)

If a controversial issue is brought to the forefront, and the individual is not speaking popular opinion, then it is silenced. Well, not literally, but consider this: if an individual supports an issue but his opinion is not widely accepted in America (regardless if it's accepted in Europe, for example), then he has to depend on secondary media outlets that aren't as popular. Even if this secondary media outlet (such as Common Dreams) actually DOES reach the masses, usually by that time, the masses are so brainwashed on the issue by the other, more popular media outlets, that they simply dismiss the opinion and form a reason in their head why they dismiss it so fast (such as, "that guy is crazy, etc. etc.")

So, when the corporations control the media, and when the corporations more or less control our government, what is the difference between GOVERNMENT control of our lives versus CORPORATE control of our lives? Just a difference in names, is all it is..."same sh*t, different toilet," as Ras Kass would say.

Really, though, what is the difference? The government currently operates more or less a little bit independent of the public, and corporations operate even more independently...both are relatively inaccessible to the masses, anyway.

Anyway, that's it right there.

The Sloth
14th April 2004, 02:37
Bump...any thoughts?

dancingoutlaw
14th April 2004, 04:34
The U.S could become a fascist nation. That is just as true that any nation could become a fascist nation. But I believe that the state of affairs of today do not match 1930's Germany. The racial affiars of the U.S. today do not match those of the 60's or 70's. The state of things in life are not under complete corporate control or under complete government control.

The news outlets that you mention are not really censored in any way. What has happened to news is something far more banal. Lazyness. It is far easier and cost effective for the news outlets to report what is told than to spend the time and the money to really report the news. Case in point. We all know that higher pay will attract more qualified people. Just for yucks a few months ago I went to the CNN websight to to see what jobs were offered. For people to go and work in Iraq as a cameraman, utility, sound person, lighting, etc. the top pay was $600 a week. For that ludicrous amount of money there is no way that the top people will even think of getting off of their couches. News has become a culture of doing something cheap, fast , and well........ pick two. Is that a consequence of a corporate culture? I would say yes. Is it an indicator of a fascist state. No. It is an indicator of a lazy culture that can fall into civilization malaise... a kind of social limbo where nothing of value is advanced.

Fascism is dead. Whether it is the pervasive and sneaky fascism that George Jackson talked about (the fact that his book is available on Amazon kind of defeats his argument... but how was he to know?) or the jackboot wearing, maching in step variety the whole movement seems to require a lot more energy than most people who are worried about getting a six pack can handle.

More on this a little later I guess when I fell I can form lucid thoughts. Hope you get my drift though.

Peace

Monty Cantsin
14th April 2004, 05:26
Brooklyn-Mecca i have to agree with you, but I’ve never called this USA "SOPHISTICATED fascism", I just thought Keynesian economics was fascist economics although people on the right wing will fight this all the way it’s a very simple and strong concept.


"But I believe that the state of affairs of today do not match 1930's Germany."
But Germany wasn’t fascism it Nazism, so other then its economic system all the racism and xenophobic stuff doesn’t matter (though you could even draw links in this).

SittingBull47
14th April 2004, 13:33
I'm beginning to see more and more fascist leanings in this country everyday. Bush's address last night was a cliched blunder, and the loyalty day thing are just 2 examples. It's very disheartening to always be around such thinking that you know is wrong, but damned if you can truly amend it.

Osman Ghazi
14th April 2004, 14:06
One of the things that I have begun to notice is that when people refer to America as 'the nation', they capitalize 'nation'. This just made me think of all the t movements and how they all have a special, capitalized name for the country, i.e. the Reich, el Patria, etc. m is by definition putting the state ahead of the people and this is just one more step along the way.

dancingoutlaw
14th April 2004, 14:48
But Germany wasn’t fascism it Nazism, so other then its economic system all the racism and xenophobic stuff doesn’t matter (though you could even draw links in this).

To draw much of a difference between Fascism and Nazism is splitting fine hairs. I beleive they are one and the same. As for the economic system.... there is no place in the U.S. that I know of where whole segments of a population are rounded up and forced to do labor.


And I remember the past two years of Loyalty day. Oh the marching of thousands of Black Shirts in Times Square and the Washington Mall was quite a sight to see.

Peace

Professor Moneybags
14th April 2004, 15:12
But, by now, it makes more and more sense to me. I'm sure many individuals realize that America is pretty much run by the corporations that it harbors...they control domestic issues, foreign policy, public opinion, etc.

I wasn't aware either fascist Italy or nazi Germany were run by corporations; I thought those countries were run entirely by the government.

That's the oddest definition of fascism I've ever come across.

America IS leaning towards fascism, but not in way you lot think. Fascism entails, with respect to private property, private ownership but with government control.

Osman Ghazi
14th April 2004, 15:42
Moneybags, why don't you pick up a book and read about t Italy. There was a House of Corporations that had government functions. m isn't government control of private property, it is private control of the government.

Robert Edward Lee
14th April 2004, 17:45
To draw much of a difference between Fascism and Nazism is splitting fine hairs. I beleive they are one and the same. As for the economic system.... there is no place in the U.S. that I know of where whole segments of a population are rounded up and forced to do labor.

I diasgree.

Italian and Spanish Facism were nothing like German Facism, aka. Nazism.

Mussolini only introduced anti-Semitic measures in 1942 (I think) - some 20 years after coming to power. He did this simply because Hitler was pushing him to do it. Evidence from Italian sources points to around 30,000 Jews actually being members of the Italian facist movement. Mussolini believed far more in the 'nation', in 'Italy'. Nazism was based almost solely upon 'race'. The both are intrinsically linked - but the line that seperates them is fundamental.

Revolt!
14th April 2004, 17:48
I just thought Keynesian economics was fascist economics

Keynesianism advocates central planning of the economy and government intervention into the economy. I don't think this is fascist at all.

Professor Moneybags
14th April 2004, 18:27
Keynesianism advocates central planning of the economy and government intervention into the economy. I don't think this is fascist at all.

Fascist goverments control the economy and intervene when it suits them.

Wenty
14th April 2004, 21:39
Typically Keynes is seen as a left wing economist though...

dancingoutlaw
15th April 2004, 04:18
Brother Robert E. Lee,

Revolutionary name that you have chosen.


I diasgree.

Italian and Spanish Facism were nothing like German Facism, aka. Nazism.

Mussolini only introduced anti-Semitic measures in 1942 (I think) - some 20 years after coming to power. He did this simply because Hitler was pushing him to do it. Evidence from Italian sources points to around 30,000 Jews actually being members of the Italian facist movement. Mussolini believed far more in the 'nation', in 'Italy'. Nazism was based almost solely upon 'race'. The both are intrinsically linked - but the line that seperates them is fundamental.

Mussolini Quotes,


"The Fascist conception of life, stresses the importance of the State and accepts the individual only in so far as his interests coincide with the State. It is opposed to classical liberalism [which] denied the State in the name of the individual; Fascism reasserts the rights of the State as expressing the real essence of the individual."


"The maxim that society exists only for the well-being and freedom of the individuals composing it does not seem to be in conformity with nature's plans." "If classical liberalism spells individualism, Fascism spells government."

Some Definitions of Facsist society


"Fascism, now and always, believes in holiness and in heroism"

"Fascism denies that the majority, by the simple fact that it is a majority, can direct human society; it denies that numbers alone can govern by means of a periodical consultation, and it affirms the immutable, beneficial, and fruitful inequality of mankind, which can never be permanently leveled through the mere operation of a mechanical process such as universal suffrage"


"The foundation of Fascism is the conception of the State, its character, its duty, and its aim. Fascism conceives of the State as an absolute, in comparison with which all individuals or groups are relative, only to be conceived of in their relation to the State. The conception of the Liberal State is not that of a directing force, guiding the play and development, both material and spiritual, of a collective body, but merely a force limited to the function of recording results: on the other hand, the Fascist State is itself conscious and has itself a will and a personality -- thus it may be called the "ethic" State"

and on and on and on...


How is this different from the conception of a Nazi state?


Peace

Monty Cantsin
15th April 2004, 14:18
Originally posted by Revolt!@Apr 14 2004, 05:48 PM

I just thought Keynesian economics was fascist economics

Keynesianism advocates central planning of the economy and government intervention into the economy. I don't think this is fascist at all.
Keynesianism advocates cutting of corporate tax and raisings of subsidies and to counter the inflationary pressure created by this workers wages are kept down. So wile it can keep the next great depression off, if these measures continue workers become under employed and the large companies keep the aggregate demand up by lapping of governments money thus the governments dig themselves a hole with the debt.

Robert Edward Lee
16th April 2004, 17:59
dancingoutlaw,

On the basis of how the state itself is formed, there is very little difference in Facism and Nazism, but I believe that there is a very very great difference in how Mussolini discriminated mainly on political beliefs (and didn't exterminate those who did disagree with him) and how Hitler discriminated upon race - something that cannot be helped at all. This is made even stronger by the fact that Hitler tried to physically eliminate out all his opponents.

It is for those reasons that I think it is unfair to classify 'fascism' and 'nazism' as one and the same.


Nice to be referred to as &#39;revolutionary&#39;, normally im just a sodding reactionary <_<