kim jong is ILL!

[Raisa]

Man that guy makes my blood boil.
He has a bunch of women who were probably kidnapped for him and his droogies in the party...called the Pleasure Team. And on it is women who sing for them, dance, massage, and do sexual things to them. Mean while there are so many people in that country who are starving to death.

hes a true communist....to the end...I'll tell you what!

[LSD]

What's your point? Kim Jong Il's an asshole??

Not exactly breaking news.

[Fidel Castro]

Please refrain from referring to Jong as a communist, I think the term "North Korea's only fat man" is far more fitting.

[Fidelbrand]

Although I do not hold a easy view with Mr Kim, but fairly speaking, political life should be separated from private life.

I like Genghis's "description" of him. bahaha~~

Read this thread too:
http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?s...opic=23788&st=0 (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=23788&st=0)

[LuZhiming]

I've always had a feeling the Kims of North Korea model themselves off of Chinese Emperors. They act just like them.

[Raisa]

<<Please refrain from referring to Jong as a communist, I think the term "North Korea&#39;s only fat man" is far more fitting. >>

yeah. that was sarcasm, but your description is better.

<<Although I do not hold a easy view with Mr Kim, but fairly speaking, political life should be separated from private life.>>

not when your private life is at the starving people&#39;s expense.

[Vinny Rafarino]

has a bunch of women who were probably kidnapped for him and his droogies in the party...called the Pleasure Team. And on it is women who sing for them, dance, massage, and do sexual things to them

I researched this and could only find references to it made by Capitalist media rags (CNN, "free korea", etc) and "testimony" of North Korean "defectors". (also contained in the very same Western rags)

The Neo-left amazes me. Get some scum bag that leaves cuba and "tells his story" (for a nice fee) to a yanqui news agency and it he is dismissed as being a "paid agent of capitalism". However if something so absurd as "pleasure teams" surfaces from someone who also "tells his story" (for an even larger fee) to the very same yanqui news agency, suddenly it&#39;s swallowed as gospel.

Truly sickening.


Mean while there are so many people in that country who are starving to death.


Why not blame those individuals that have made it "illegal" to trade with th DPRK?
Why not blame those that attempt to control the DPRK&#39;s nuclear programme with threats of nuclear attack? (make sense out of that one)

The neo-left will not be satisfied until every Socialist nation falls to the capitalists. You won&#39;t be happy when you lose your job because the West has found a nice new labour market to exploit.

Only a few more years of "softening" and the DPRK will be ready to make your Nike&#39;s for you, so wear them with pride my fellow "leftists".

With any luck, perhaps they will start producing "Che" t-shirts too.

[Fidel Castro]

I don&#39;t consider myslef neo-left, I do not want to see North Korea gothe same way as China, down the slide to capitalism under a socialist guise. However, I do not feel that Kim is the right person to lead North Korea.

I also absolutely condemn the trade embargo on North Korea, as I do the embargo on Cuba.

I agree too that most stories invloving Kim&#39;s sexual activity and personal habits should be taken with a large dose of salt.

[Urban Rubble]

I agree with you for the most part RAF, and this story is obviously either fake or exaggerated, but please tell me, what is there to like about Kim Jong Il ?

[antieverything]

I certainly wouldn&#39;t doubt that Mr. Kim has a good sized harem...I also don&#39;t doubt the reports that he is a western porn junkie. Still, isn&#39;t that pretty much par for the course when it comes to dictators like him? Castro may not have a harem but he can probably get laid whenever he wants anyway...I have a suspicion that he fucked Barbera Walters when she interviewed him a few years back.

Tell me, if anybody here had total control over an entire country, wouldn&#39;t they eventually give in to temptation and amass a few sexual servants? What keeps us from doing these types of things other than our accountability to the law, the opinions of others, and our own socialization? Well...other than the amount of money it would cost? When someone becomes unaccountable--especially if they have been raised to believe that they are unaccountable as Kim was--they are pretty much capable of anything&#33; Foucoult got it right, kids.

[Raisa]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2004, 03:09 AM
I don&#39;t consider myslef neo-left, I do not want to see North Korea gothe same way as China, down the slide to capitalism under a socialist guise. However, I do not feel that Kim is the right person to lead North Korea.

I also absolutely condemn the trade embargo on North Korea, as I do the embargo on Cuba.

I agree too that most stories invloving Kim&#39;s sexual activity and personal habits should be taken with a large dose of salt.
Yes I too, can refer to this statement to pretty much explain my position on the issue and the reason for my concern.
I dont care about his sex life, it is the issue of the indulgence that sickens me.
I am not a neo-leftist. I just do not want to see the hard struggle for north korea amount to nothing because of a stupid leader and his betrayal to the people, so I am concerned. And for now that is all it is.
but that man makes me weary, he probably is north korea&#39;s only fat man.
Ive heard of how he lavishes himself and it bothers me. there is nothing worse then a capitalist "communist."

[Hate Is Art]

North Korea is very authortarian, this has been somewhat forced upon by the west and somewhat by their leaders.

The DRPK is on a slippy slope, one which is now hard to get out of, but an invasion is unlikelt to suceed due to the ammount of brain washing they recieve, I would like to see a new Communist leader, who treats his people well, maybe a revolt within the party to remove Il.

[Fidelbrand]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 10:33 PM
not when your private life is at the starving people&#39;s expense.
fully agree to this. ;)

[TC]

I agree with RAF completely.



North Korea is very authortarian,

According to the same propaganda that said Saddam has weapons of mass destruction, Jessica Lynch was raped, and all opponents of imperialism are motivated primarily by "a hatred of freedom", or possibly a &#39;fear&#39; or &#39;envy&#39; of America&#39;s freedom.

No, just because you&#39;ve seen it repeated a million times in the media doesn&#39;t make it true, in fact that was what Lenin described as the chief form of false propaganda, lieing enough until everyone including the liers takes it to be true.



ammount of brain washing they recieve

right, whatever. Pyongyang is also an inflateable city that they have to pump full of air whenever the western turists come, and hide the scores of starving children and bring in the Party&#39;s specially genetically altered healthy smiling children, just to impress any american that should come. Oh wait, but remember, the DPRK is also closed to the outside world&#33;


Tell me, if anybody here had total control over an entire country

No one ever has had total control of a country. Not Hitler, not Stalin, not G.W. Bush, not George Washington, its just not how things work. In reality governments are built around classes and institions, around large organizations not around individuals. Kim Jong Il himself is only one of three paramount leaders of the DPRK, there are two others with roughly equal constitutional power. All of these people are directly accountable to the Workers Party, the Supreme People&#39;s Assembly, in Kim Jong Il&#39;s case the army, and indirectly accountable to the powerful mass organizations that influence public opinion and a million other institions and interests. One man is not a power onto himself, he rules by way of a powerbase that has to be located somewhere else, that is a basic consequence of historical materialism, a rejection of the "great man" theory of history.

But American propaganda tries to undercut this by concentrating on a single individual as being in complete control of the nation, every element of it ordered from the top, which really if you think about it is insane. For instance, people are raped, beat up, and tortured in American prisons all the time, but no one is under the impression that G.W. Bush somehow ordered each individual human rights abuse, that&#39;s crazy. But if some defector comes out of an Iraqi prison and said "I was beat in prison by a guard" and it works its way into the logic that "Saddam Hussien had me tortured", it is suddenly Saddam Hussien&#39;s personal responsibility, as if he had ordered it, which is impossible, he doesn&#39;t have the time or motivation to order mistreatment for every random thug. Collapsing the Iraqi government into Saddam Hussien as if they are one in the same is a way of making this impossible logic make sense to a dumb American audience. While Americans understand to some extent how terribly complex their own politics are, they are even on the left so arrogant to assume that foriegn politics are simple, one man giving orders. It doesn&#39;t work that way. It didn&#39;t even work that way in feudal societies, monarchs who where too crazy to rule got pushed asside.

[antieverything]

No one ever has had total control of a country. Not Hitler, not Stalin, not G.W. Bush, not George Washington, its just not how things work. In reality governments are built around classes and institions, around large organizations not around individuals. Kim Jong Il himself is only one of three paramount leaders of the DPRK, there are two others with roughly equal constitutional power. All of these people are directly accountable to the Workers Party, the Supreme People&#39;s Assembly, in Kim Jong Il&#39;s case the army, and indirectly accountable to the powerful mass organizations that influence public opinion and a million other institions and interests. One man is not a power onto himself, he rules by way of a powerbase that has to be located somewhere else, that is a basic consequence of historical materialism, a rejection of the "great man" theory of history.

But American propaganda tries to undercut this by concentrating on a single individual as being in complete control of the nation, every element of it ordered from the top, which really if you think about it is insane. For instance, people are raped, beat up, and tortured in American prisons all the time, but no one is under the impression that G.W. Bush somehow ordered each individual human rights abuse, that&#39;s crazy. But if some defector comes out of an Iraqi prison and said "I was beat in prison by a guard" and it works its way into the logic that "Saddam Hussien had me tortured", it is suddenly Saddam Hussien&#39;s personal responsibility, as if he had ordered it, which is impossible, he doesn&#39;t have the time or motivation to order mistreatment for every random thug. Collapsing the Iraqi government into Saddam Hussien as if they are one in the same is a way of making this impossible logic make sense to a dumb American audience. While Americans understand to some extent how terribly complex their own politics are, they are even on the left so arrogant to assume that foriegn politics are simple, one man giving orders. It doesn&#39;t work that way. It didn&#39;t even work that way in feudal societies, monarchs who where too crazy to rule got pushed asside.
I hope you realize that you spent 10 minutes of your life typing something that essentially says nothing. All I can say in response is "no shit." Complete control is a figure of speech when used in reference to a political despot.

[Schnitz]

Wow. Usually i dont stand behind who america is against. But Kim Jong Ill deserves it. He has no right to do what he is doing to his own country.

[TC]

You weren&#39;t using it as a figure of speech and I can&#39;t imagine how it could be a figure of speech, you where asking "if you had total control to the point there was no law and no restriction would you abuse it" don&#39;t back out of it.

[commie kg]

How can you take a guy seriously who tells his people that he was born on a magical mountain, and on that day, beautiful rays of sunshine descended upon Korea as a sign of what was to come.

There&#39;s an official state holiday commemorating Kim Jong Il&#39;s birthday... The one where he was born on a magical mountain...

[antieverything]

What you said was that he doesn&#39;t have total control because he isn&#39;t responsible for and doesn&#39;t oversee everything that happens in the country. I agree. He does, however, have almost complete authority to do anything he wanted to. I don&#39;t see how you can say otherwise...he may not oversee every operation but if he wanted something done, nobody would question it.

[BuyOurEverything]

The problem with trying to form an educated opinion on the DPRK is the incredible lack of information. Blame who you will, but there&#39;s not much besides propaganda from both sides. I seriously doubt most people here know much of anything at all about North Korea, let alone the reasons for it.

That said however, TC is dead on about the myth of one figure controlling a country. This is an improtant aspect to most western propaganda. They always try to paint a picture of brutal egotistical leader who has everyone brainwashed to love him. This was very apperant in the lead-up to the Iraq war. As TC touched on, when someone is beat up in prison, nobody blames George Bush. Likewise, when one emigrates from the US, nobody claimes they are &#39;fleeing Bush&#39;s regime&#39; as they do with everyone that moves out of the DPRK, Cuba, Iraq, etc.

[Edelweiss]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 06:52 PM
I agree with RAF completely.



North Korea is very authortarian,

According to the same propaganda that said Saddam has weapons of mass destruction, Jessica Lynch was raped, and all opponents of imperialism are motivated primarily by "a hatred of freedom", or possibly a &#39;fear&#39; or &#39;envy&#39; of America&#39;s freedom.
So you seriously deny that North Korea is an authoritarian state? In what kind of "anti-revisionist" fantasy world do you live? You don&#39;t get the real world if you take the exact opposite of everything the corporate media reports&#33; This is a common illness among the radical Left, you are making it yourself FAR too easy if you entirely reject all sources that do not represent your own world view. Despite how manipulative and biased the bourgeois media is, there can be a journalistic profound and well researched story with valid sources in it, of course you have to read between the lines and come to your own conclusions. But again, if you entirely deny and ignore the corporate media, or if you only acknowledge stories which may are politically opportune for you, or even only acknowledge material published in your "anti-revisionist" publication of choice without any reflections by your own, than you are going the way of sectarianism which has ruined the Left in the West within the last 50 years.
I don&#39;t think any serious Leftist can deny that the religious leader cult around Kim Jong Ill has very little to do with socialism, and that it has nothing to do at all with socialist democracy if leadership is given away as a birth right.
And your babbling about how one man can never have full control in one country is, as antieverything already said, nothing than pure nonsense and full of stupid phrases and dumb repeating of North Korean state propaganda. Again, you are are making it yourself far too easy with that kind of nonsense rhetoric. It reminds me about a phrase what they said here in Germany during the Hitler time when some brainwashed victim of Nazi propaganda was witness of another Nazi crime: "Wenn das der Führer wüßte..", which mean as much as "If only the Führer would know about it...".

[antieverything]

And comparing American authoritarianism to North Korean authoritarianism is a ridiculous leap&#33;

[dark fairy]

I want to party like that someday... but that&#39;s funny having women kidnnaped for you hehehe :P j&#092;k i don&#39;t know damn people with their money being able to manipulate people <_<

[TC]

Malte: I don&#39;t know why you&#39;re talking about me as an "anti-revisionst," I&#39;m about as far from that as possible, I support the current chinese government, khrushchev, market-socialism and so forth, if there is such a thing as a revisionist then I&#39;m a pro-revisionist, an anti-anti-revisionist.


I don&#39;t trust American and British corporate news, I&#39;ll believe something when I see it in Chinese news or on Al Jazeera. I think thats fair enough because the cappies will only trust American and British corporate news and refuse to believe Chinese news and Al Jazeera, and its consistent with my policy of holding the opposite opinion from the cappies in all matters.

Edit: in my profile I see I wrote "che was an anti-revisionist." Well he was but I&#39;m not.

[Edelweiss]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 04:13 AM
Malte: I don&#39;t know why you&#39;re talking about me as an "anti-revisionist," I&#39;m about as far from that as possible, I support the current Chinese government, khrushchev, market-socialism and so forth, if there is such a thing as a revisionist then I&#39;m a pro-revisionist, an anti-anti-revisionist.


I don&#39;t trust American and British corporate news, I&#39;ll believe something when I see it in Chinese news or on Al Jazeera. I think thats fair enough because the cappies will only trust American and British corporate news and refuse to believe Chinese news and Al Jazeera, and its consistent with my policy of holding the opposite opinion from the cappies in all matters.
Well, sorry than, from the link in your profile to the WWP, and your defending of the DPRK and Saddam Hussein (the only leftists who are doing that are usually insane Stalinists) I was assuming that you are some sort of an "anti-revisionist". I guess I already should have realized that you aren&#39;t a anti-revisionist when you where defending the Chinese government. My bad...

But believe me, by getting your information from Chinese state news and Al Jazeera only, and taking it as the only truth, you are making a BIG mistake. Both are biased of course, like most media, Chinese news in favor of the Chinese government, Al Jazeera in favor of the Arab world.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 14 2004, 03:35 AM
I agree with you for the most part RAF, and this story is obviously either fake or exaggerated, but please tell me, what is there to like about Kim Jong Il ?
From what I can gather, there is not much at all about him to like. He does indeed seem out of line in several key issues.

As Joe said, "it&#39;s just another lot driving the black cars".

What I do consider however is what the people of the DPRK think about him. If we must ignore several of the man&#39;s character flaws in order to maintain adequate resistance against Western aggression, that that MUST take place.

Many people will have to do many things that make them uneasy in order to resist.

(A subject Malte and I do not particularly agree on)

The more the people of the DPRK are pushed by the West, (including those of the left) the more they will socially rebel and, perhaps even themselves, elevate their leader to "cult" status.

When there is nothing left to grasp onto besides fanaticism, then fanatics we all shall be.

I think that the answer to ridding ourselves of "cultish" leaders lies in removing the conditions that make "falling into fanaticism" the only option for survival of the last remaining social systems.

Targeting the heros of the people will only make matters worse.

Unless of course you feel that allowing the DPRK to embrace capitalism is a better option. I personally do not.

[elijahcraig]

I, for one, regret joining the KFA at the bidding of some Kim Jong Il fanatics on various boards.

Now I don&#39;t know how to get out of this cult&#33;

[antieverything]

KFA?

[TC]

the KFA (Korean Friendship Association) is the most loserly government front group abroad ever. Their propaganda is pathetic, it undermines the DPRK. And their website&#33; and suggesting that their website is the "official website of the DPRK", its just so embarrassing. The DPRK forign ministry should axe them.

I don&#39;t know what the problem with "getting out" is though, its not a cadre party, just a solidarity group, you don&#39;t even have to pay dues, its like activism at any level you want.

[El Che]

So you seriously deny that North Korea is an authoritarian state? In what kind of "anti-revisionist" fantasy world do you live? You don&#39;t get the real world if you take the exact opposite of everything the corporate media reports&#33; This is a common illness among the radical Left, you are making it yourself FAR too easy if you entirely reject all sources that do not represent your own world view. Despite how manipulative and biased the bourgeois media is, there can be a journalistic profound and well researched story with valid sources in it, of course you have to read between the lines and come to your own conclusions. But again, if you entirely deny and ignore the corporate media, or if you only acknowledge stories which may are politically opportune for you, or even only acknowledge material published in your "anti-revisionist" publication of choice without any reflections by your own, than you are going the way of sectarianism which has ruined the Left in the West within the last 50 years.
- Malte

The nazies do the same thing. Whenever you point to inconvenient facts they always spout the same tired line: "thats just the jewish controled media". I don&#39;t think it convinces anyone who doesn&#39;t want to be convinced in the first place.

[SittingBull47]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 12:33 AM
I think the term "North Korea&#39;s only fat man" is far more fitting.
:lol: :lol:
Perfect. That describes him and the country in a way only small accurate words can do.

Yes, he&#39;s a horrible man and not fit to govern a country. Pleasure Team, his obsession with Donald Duck cartoons....he&#39;s like an irresponsible child than a leader. Sounds like some other world leader..

[Raisa]

Originally posted by commie [email protected] 15 2004, 09:09 PM
How can you take a guy seriously who tells his people that he was born on a magical mountain, and on that day, beautiful rays of sunshine descended upon Korea as a sign of what was to come.

There&#39;s an official state holiday commemorating Kim Jong Il&#39;s birthday... The one where he was born on a magical mountain...
I think i saw the beginning but I did not want to download it.
"When Kim Jong Ill was born....the clouds opened up"
That was enough for me.
Facist&#33; Comrades.....do not support that man.

[elijahcraig]

I don&#39;t know what the problem with "getting out" is though, its not a cadre party, just a solidarity group, you don&#39;t even have to pay dues, its like activism at any level you want.

They don&#39;t respond to emails in my experience.

How do you leave the group? I&#39;ve never even done anything with them activist wise.

[Saint-Just]

I was a member of the KFA, but I left. Althought for totally different reasons. It is easy enough to say without going into any detail that I don&#39;t agree with any of these things about Kim Jong Il intentionally starving the country, or having a &#39;pleasure team&#39; (which is a lies created by the rabidly right-wing Japanese media) and so on.

I do think the DPRK is changing. It is now near impossible for the DPRK to defend socialism. I think it will become a capitalist country like China and much of the party will do it willingly.


And your babbling about how one man can never have full control in one country is, as antieverything already said, nothing than pure nonsense and full of stupid phrases and dumb repeating of North Korean state propaganda. Again, you are are making it yourself far too easy with that kind of nonsense rhetoric. It reminds me about a phrase what they said here in Germany during the Hitler time when some brainwashed victim of Nazi propaganda was witness of another Nazi crime: "Wenn das der Führer wüßte..", which mean as much as "If only the Führer would know about it...".

In Germany, what occured in terms of brutality and lawlessness was accomodated by the legal system there and state institutions concerned with security. Anyone who said &#39;If only the Fuhrer...&#39; did not know what Hitler was allowing to happen. Hitler he created a system which facilitated and encouraged these crimes.

So, when one looks at any state why have to see whether any incident of brutality and such was out of the ordinary in the system as a whole.

In Germany, if for example an SS member was given a rude reception in a shop then the pharse &#39;If only the Fuhrer...&#39; would apply well, Hitler would not condone such an incident and since it was an isolated incident would have had little control over it.

If tens of thousands of prisoners are routinely tortured in the DPRK then responsibility does lie with Kim Jong Il. If one man is tortured then you would do well to question someone saying that Kim Jong Il has total control and should have stopped it before it occured.


You don&#39;t get the real world if you take the exact opposite of everything the corporate media reports&#33;

Its so complex though. Someone can support the DPRK by using many articles from the bourgeois media to defend the DPRK. On looking at Kim Jong Il you cannot because there is so little substantive evidence either way. Also, there are bound to be issues we take an opposite stance to the bourgeois media on.We can all find truth in the bourgeois media, to differing degrees. If one is on the far left of the political spectrum it is not suprising it would be critical of a large amount of what it reports.

[Fidelbrand]

Originally posted by Raisa+Apr 16 2004, 08:16 PM--> (Raisa @ Apr 16 2004, 08:16 PM)
commie [email protected] 15 2004, 09:09 PM
How can you take a guy seriously who tells his people that he was born on a magical mountain, and on that day, beautiful rays of sunshine descended upon Korea as a sign of what was to come.

There&#39;s an official state holiday commemorating Kim Jong Il&#39;s birthday... The one where he was born on a magical mountain...
I think i saw the beginning but I did not want to download it.
"When Kim Jong Ill was born....the clouds opened up"
That was enough for me.
Facist&#33; Comrades.....do not support that man. [/b]
I remember something was said about his visit to Russia few years ago.... something about the sun shone after a heavy rain when Kim left the plane or something like that. <_<