can you convert someone ?

[Nas]

i have tried converting a friend, she is just a student but she doesnt get socialism i dunno why , after telling her how bad capitalism, she is like "whatever", it really annoys me :angry: . is it her , is she too stupid or something?
well, she doesnt really like talking about politics , which brings me to my other question ,

can someone who doesn't like politics support socialism?

i have met people who dont like politics (maybe because they are young , like 16,17,18) , how could we make them understand socialism if they dont even like politics?

if the revolution happens do all the people have to be socialists or can the mass support socialism without being socialists?

[Fidel Castro]

It is perfectly possible to convert someone politically, however some need more persuasion than others.

It is vital to rally the masses to the socialist cause, and limit the powers of those against the masses, not neccessarily through violence.

[Al Creed]

I think being something and supporting something are two different ideas.

You can support a sports team, but do you have to be a member of that sports team? No, of course not.

It is hard, I agree, to get people interested in politics. Hard, not impossible.

Your friend, it seems, is smitten with complacency. Just keep, gradually, working on her, and maybe she'll see the light just enought to abandon Capitalism.

[dannie]

i don't like the word 'convert', we do not need to convert people, we need to educate them, of people are being educated, the socialist cause will inevetibly(sp?) gain support

[Pawn Power]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 02:34 PM
i have tried converting a friend, she is just a student but she doesnt get socialism i dunno why , after telling her how bad capitalism, she is like "whatever", it really annoys me :angry: . is it her , is she too stupid or something?
well, she doesnt really like talking about politics


when you talk to your friend about communism or socialism dont talk about it in a strickly political sence. Talk to her about issues and ideas she would care about, like under communism their would be no homelessness or uneducated and how their would be no devisions in labor. Things about what communism will creat, no one can deny that the elimination of homlessness and education and full employment for all is not a Great thing.

[Solace]

can you convert someone ?

I don't know how many times the following must be stressed out until it gets sticked it people's brain.

You cannot inject politics. You cannot inject any form of ideology.

You have to let the people come to it.

Your job might only be to present the alternatives, the viewpoints. You have to give the basics, they will do the rest... if it interests them.

You have to be specific and throw to the garbage the "right is baaaad, left is good". Take a few social issues they care about and show the differences between the communist and capitalist viewpoint.

Apart from that, I would damn well understand your friends if their reject socialism.


It is hard, I agree, to get people interested in politics. Hard, not impossible.

It is not as hard as you are suggesting it. Once people will understand how the world revolving around them rely on politics, they will take interest. Unfortunately, people restrict politics to bourgeois elections and assembly cocktails.

In that case, their un-interest is also understandable.

[redstar2000]

My experience has been that people "convert" themselves. It's only when they feel that their existing "world-views" are inadequate that they start checking out alternatives.

It makes sense in a way. You don't start looking for a new car until your old one starts giving you a lot of grief.

Our task is to make our alternative visible...and folks will do the rest on their own.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[DORRI]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 04:39 PM

when you talk to your friend about communism or socialism dont talk about it in a strickly political sence. Talk to her about issues and ideas she would care about, like under communism their would be no homelessness or uneducated and how their would be no devisions in labor. Things about what communism will creat, no one can deny that the elimination of homlessness and education and full employment for all is not a Great thing.
that's right.
enter from a way which is important for her.make the problem important.if she find it important, she will care.obviously!
it's a reality that all people don't have the sense of politics.when we want to forexaple convert somebody,first we must know his character.
Act psychologically! ;)

[Misodoctakleidist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 04:06 PM
i don't like the word 'convert', we do not need to convert people, we need to educate them, of people are being educated, the socialist cause will inevetibly(sp?) gain support
I think the word educate sounds worse, it sounds like your going to try and convert them but you're pretending to let them decide for themselves.

[dannie]

no, it means you are teaching them about leftist politics, converting seems like some religious cult

[j]

My experience has been that people "convert" themselves. It's only when they feel that their existing "world-views" are inadequate that they start checking out alternatives.

It makes sense in a way. You don't start looking for a new car until your old one starts giving you a lot of grief.

Our task is to make our alternative visible...and folks will do the rest on their own.



I know I quoted your whole post, but it is worth re-posting.

I think, sometimes, you need to start slow. Just getting people interested in politics in general is tough enough.

I think its important to give people the facts and let them decide for themselves. Nine out of ten people when presented with the TRUE facts will fall on the left side of the aisle. I firmly believe that.

j

[mysticofthewest]

When atempting to educate someone about the benifits of socialism who has almost no poltical sense speak in terms they can understand Peace Land and Bread would be a good example

[El Tipo]

You can learn to love idealism but you really should not convert your friend, some people just dont like politics. I have this friend whos grand-atheist and when it gets to politics he says "I could care less" and I know hes smart and knows about the things but he seems to think "everything is ok, for me.. dont care about others"... Yes its annoying to person like me who wants to know everything about everything, but nowadays Im not speaking about politics with him, because its a fact he does not care.

PS. And also Im not sure am I socialist, but I agree on many things with socialists.

[SittingBull47]

I'm young (17), but I understand socialism and believe in Marxism. What Al Creed said, it is hard but not impossible. I converted a republican to the green party already, and he's an older college guy. (converting though makes it sound bad, I don't know what else you'd call it though). The fact is that most people will be one of three persuasions:
A: They're die hard members of their party
B: They don't care
C: They think whatever is working for them right now is best

[Hate Is Art]

Most people I know just kinda believe in Democracy so it's hard to convert them to doing anything radical really.

I'm the only communist I know personally.

[Yazman]

Originally posted by Digital [email protected] 13 2004, 02:00 PM
Most people I know just kinda believe in Democracy so it's hard to convert them to doing anything radical really.

I'm the only communist I know personally.
Modern western society is not a democracy.

Some more suitable terms would be:

-Representative Dictatorship
-Corporate Aristocracy
-Pseudo-capitalist

[SittingBull47]

you forgot Republic. The US is the quintessential republic

[Hasta Siempre Comandante]

I agree with yazman - modern western society is not a democracy!!
I hate it when I hear politicians and people in the media use this word to describe western society! We're talking about a society where 5% are rich and remain rich by exploiting others. In the U.S anit-castros like to point out that Cuba doesn't have "open, fair and democratic elections." This coming from a country where the presidential candidate with the most votes (Gore) didn't even win - not to mention the bullshit involved with the entire process (why were so many blacks and hispanics not allowed to vote?)

If Castro held elections he would win hands down anyways!! Look at Chavez in Venezuela- look at Allende in Chile- the majority of people in South America want socialism and communism because the majority of people aren't rich- the majority of people are beeing exploited by self-interested capitalists who would rather drive nice cars than to help feed their neighbors.

Capitalism and democracy ar not synoymous!! They do not go together- they do not work together- so don't believe it or use the word so loosely!

[COLOR=blue]"Shoot coward, you're only going to kill a man" - CHE

[pandora]

No you can not convert anyone, you can only lead by example. I have been often surprised working with people with disabilities the things they pick up from me.

Actually one has to be careful even with people who are not mentally disabled or young that they are not trying on your ideas just to impress you are become closer to you. That they really feel that way. Often if someone mimics one of my views and I suspect this I will question them further to see what in their lives is opening them to this point of view, and advise them to fix that problem first then if they are open to Leftist points of view we can come back to that, but they are not doing so out of some sort of need ie. attention, desperation, and they are naturally curious and learning as opposed to desperate.

Wanting to really find what they believe, and what they don't believe.
What they have experienced ie.) with work, housing, and in community, and how their political view relates to these experiences.

I just do what I do, and if people are interested in it, they will let me know. Someone at work, another staff has been silently learning from me, caught him with Howard Zinn last week, told him I'd lend him my copy but he wanted his own. But it's coming from him this curiosity so it belongs to him.
He's not trying to please me, and has his privacy, even if knowing me has opened the doorway to these ideas which go against his family's.

[dark fairy]

I think it's just the generation we live in... she's like whatevers that's because she doesn't care... I think the simpsons were right...we don't feel extreme anger or sadness or happiness-lisa... she said something like that... that is how a lot of people are they'll just go with whatever you say because they are too lazy to argue it... that is why a lot of countries are being governed a certain way because people as a whole are stupid and that is why education is low because as soon as these sons of *****es get some sort of knowledge there will be a retaliation...if invidual people are careless and dumb people as a whole will be too... man i ramble a lot! :unsure:

[dark fairy]

the point is people are a bunch of sheep!!!!!

[mysticofthewest]

well thank you captain obvoius im not saying turn everyone into marx cause that wouldn't work because people are sheep but dumb it down like in Animal Farm as long as what you say is catchy the dont care

[Louis Pio]

Of course people can change views. You don't need to "convert" them. If you have a good point/policy and do like Lenin said "patiently explain" you will come a long way.
Personally I know several ex-stalinists, who after actually looking into things became real marxists.

[DaCuBaN]

the point is people are a bunch of sheep!!!!!

Actually I could be wrong, but I seem to remember it was once said that people are NOT like sheep that need to be led, but like goats, and need to be driven.

Wish i could remember who it was tho :( <_<

[seen_che]

Yeah dude I got the same prob whit some of my friends but when i explained how bad some people ar treated in our Country they kinda went "Oh&#33; I dident know that" and now they kinda get it more...

[redstar2000]

The point is people are a bunch of sheep&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

No they aren&#39;t.

Are Workers "Sheep"? June 10, 2003 (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/monthlytheoryarchives.php?subaction=showfull&id=1055218706&archive=1057041165&cnshow=archive&start_from=&ucat=&)

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[DaCuBaN]

I have little choice but to conclude that you are completely unfamiliar with Marxist analysis or that you have rejected it in favor of some early bourgeois liberal theory (utilitarianism, perhaps?).

As a non-Marxist "socialist", you are under no obligation to pay any attention to class at all. You can be "for" socialism for humanitarian or even theological reasons

In my experience this only happens when the individual has no respect for those they believe they are &#39;above&#39; in current society. The problem here is although they wish to see some form of equality, and are technically on the same side as myself, they become part of the problem by &#39;classing&#39; themselves - something I think most would like to see away with.

In answer to the question though, I don&#39;t think it&#39;s possible to convert someone from one ideology to another without some kind of &#39;event&#39; to push them over the &#39;edge&#39;. I&#39;ve pretty much abandoned all hope of ever seeing a Socialist state, let alone Communism within my lifetime. In fact the only way I could ever see it happening is by buying myself an island and declaring it an independant socialist state. Not really possible though... it&#39;d mean I&#39;d have joined the other side <_< :rolleyes:

[Revolt!]

Surely we should present our Marxist opinions, lay them out and see if they agree with them.

I&#39;m sure there are many people who are capitalists and have reasons for being so, they aren&#39;t just being sheep.

[Hasta Siempre Comandante]

Undoubtedly you can have an effect and influince on someone&#39;s views and opinions - but ultimately it depends on the person and what he/she has experienced. Some people just don&#39;t get it- they have been brought up in a capitalist society where personal wealth comes before anything else- they&#39;ve been brainwashed by what they see on t.v- read in magazines- taught in school etc.. I don&#39;t think convert is the right word because if someone is truly a hardcore capitalist that person is likely as passionate about their beliefs as we are about ours. However, there are those who don&#39;t have strong political opinions- sort of like liberals (haha)- it is possible that those people would be open to socialist ideas if they understood what socialism is really about.

[DaCuBaN]

I&#39;m sure there are many people who are capitalists and have reasons for being so, they aren&#39;t just being sheep

They&#39;re goats I tell you&#33; :D

I don&#39;t like the analogy that people are sheep - I&#39;ve met a few people I&#39;d call Sheep in my lifetime, but to be honest there are more socialist &#39;sheep&#39; than anything else. Think about how many people you know do it to be &#39;cool&#39;

[Dio]

I find conservatism wrong. The point of conservatism is to keep traditional order in other words keep everything static. But is everything fine the way it is? The answer is no, its not. But for those who do take the conservative stand point, things are just nice and dandy. Changing someones political standing is as difficult as changing someone belif in god from atheist to agnostic, or even theist. Or they are just retarded, or children with no political affiliation of their own, or an opinion.

[apathy maybe]

As has been said, we must educate people to the cause. Only problem is, many people don&#39;t really care. Most of these people are well off or come from well off families however.
Case in point,
Young female (16 or 17). Parents are mildly wealthy. Just over a month ago there was a rally to protest old growth logging. Afterwards there was another rally for International Womens Day. After I say this girl on the street and asked her if she had been to either. "No" was the answer. In fact she sounded shocked that I would suggest that she would go to a IWD rally. She was going shopping instead. If I try and talk to her about politics she just doesn&#39;t listen. She thinks I&#39;m "anti-everything" (even anti-democracy :o (but another friend soon put her straight on that count)).
She has money, she can buy stuff. And she&#39;ll probably get married and have 1.7 (or whatever the average is now) kids. And if she does vote she&#39;ll vote either Liberal (i.e. conservitive) or Labor [sic] (just left of Liberal).

No helping some people.

But I do think that linking problems that people have with the current society (e.g. one I hear a lot is "that it is all about the money" (in relation to logging, nurses, etc)). The correct answer is "yes dear, we live in a Capitalist society, things will continue like they are until we (the people) change them. By the way vote socialist".