The Ignorance of Religion

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Though I am all for the people of this world practicing their different faiths and beliefs, it has become apparent that all religions share one thing in common.

A certain ignorance and naiivety seems to exist in each faith. Christians, Jews, Muslims, Catholics...They all preach respect for everyone's faith, while basically saying "but their faiths are wrong." I've always maintained that all religions preach peace between everyone, and they do. But there's always a little dig at all other faiths.

Im starting this to hear the opinions of those on this site who do follow their faiths. I know there are a few. My father was born a Muslim, but once he left his country, he realised the narrow-mindedness of religion and decided not to practice anymore. And linking to the topic, of course Islam now regards my father as an apostate who shall burn in hell.

Don't take this as a swipe at religion. I'm a firm believer that if religion is practiced properly, only good and peace can come of it. But it's just something I've noticed.

[monkeydust]

First up most religions don't preach peace and harmony, though I understand why you have this impression. Though this isn't the point.

Undoubtedly, nearly all religions offer a narrow outlook upon things, simply because thought is confined to the parameters laid down in the scriptures and/or doctrines which they follow. For example, Darwin's theory of evolution, natural selection would not have been considered were everyone vigorously religious.

Religious followers are also. by and large quite ignorant, if only because of the fact that they are 'followers'; usually blind ones.

Many religions are also irrational. Christians ,for example, suffer from the fatal flaw that they attempt to make comprehensible, analagous references to a being which admittedly wholly beyond the scope of their ability to reason. This results in a whole lexicon of completely meaningless phrases concerning the nature of metaphysical reality.

You touched upon an interesting point here:


while basically saying "but their faiths are wrong."

It's interesting to note that most monotheistic religions claim themselves to be the most valid, though all claim this on the same basis. What makes the Bible any more valid than the Qu'ran, or Jesus any more relevant than Muhammed? Most followers of monotheistic religions have no logical reason as to why they follow their chosen religion over any other.

[El Tipo]

Well yes I am christian but I have studied many religions from buddhism to satanism and in the end I have chosen my path which is christianity. Still I have open mind and I disagree with somethings with your average christian. I just try to live good and peaceful life under the protection of my God. I think that is what my God really wants.

[dark fairy]

well religions contradict themselves but all I can say is that is hard because curruption does this... they do make it seem like if they are the choosen ones their faith is wrong that i believe is true but that is why i don't have a religion I believe in a higher being but not "God"... it is complicated i want to believe in "God" he\she\it seems like a nice thing but it's hard :unsure:

[Hitman47]

Yea, I arrived at the conclusion that religions contradict themselves.

And sometimes i get a sense of "exclusion" instead of "inclusion" just because some person or group has a different perspective on things.

[Pawn Power]

more people where killed in the name of religion throughout history then any other reason. Religion is the cause of evil and hate. However, I do not think that religious people are evil, most people are good by nature. But religion causes racisim and hatered to other human beings. Religion gives people the excuse to do horrible things.
We will never be free until all religion is abolished.

[elhumano]

Ignorance in religion runs ramped through our world. Honestly the way different religions view others to me is rediculous. People need to start seeing each other as just that, people of the same world sharing the same space. Religion is by far one of the most common factors in the seperation of people today. Racism was viewed as acceptable why? Religion. Maybe if religion was taught as more of a history lesson and not so much as a faith people could gather together and not be killed for being Muslim, or Jewish.

[Wenty]

I don't think Religion causes hatred nor do I think it 'allows' racism. I think people that have studied the bible, for example, will know the God they praise is one of mercy and love.

I also think Mankind has used many reasons to fight wars and kill people. Trade, oil, land etc. Religion isn't to be singled out.


They all preach respect for everyone's faith, while basically saying "but their faiths are wrong."

Not all the main faiths preach respect for everyones faith but I know Christianity does and I know of many occasions when may of the followers are like this. You can use this 'contradiction' as it isn't for most things in life. Anyone ever who has respect for other peoples views yet believes in their own is somehow ignorant. It isn't ignorance though, its accepting the fact that others have the right to believe in whatever they like.

Say what you will about Religion, the fact of the matter is everyone has to face up to an unknowable and unanswerable question in this life of creation, where we came from. Many of the far left who lambast religion for being 'illogical' or 'irrational' I believe miss the point that this world is irrational. Think about it, if you believe in God how did god come into being, if you believe in the big bang or big crunch how did the gas come into being? Its impossible for us to answer.

Edit: This also should be in Philosophy.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

I do agree to an extent with 'glory'. Religion is the cause of much killing and war and that is due to the resentment that I speak of between religions caused by the "respect them, but we are right" attitude preached in the books. Indeed, one of the main reasons my "apostate" father gives for not following his religion anymore is due to the hatred it can create in people. However, it is those individuals which use the teachings in the wrong way who create the hatred.

Also, just as much as an ignorance within religion leads people to hatred and, somtimes, war and killing; ignorance outside of religion does so. People intolerant and who don't understand religon and religious people can themselves be drawn to violence against those of faith.

And, as wenty correctly says, religion shouldnt be singled out as a cause for war.
And to answer what wenty said, I know that Islam, Judaism and Hinduism preach the utmost respect for everyone and their beliefs. Islam, however, takes the view that those who were of the Muslim faith and then deserted it are "apostates" who will face the ultimate consequence upon their day of judgement.

[The Sloth]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 11:46 PM
more people where killed in the name of religion throughout history then any other reason. Religion is the cause of evil and hate. However, I do not think that religious people are evil, most people are good by nature. But religion causes racisim and hatered to other human beings. Religion gives people the excuse to do horrible things.
We will never be free until all religion is abolished.
That is foolish; it is not religion itself that perpetrates these evils...it more so has to do with the evil of individuals, such as so many Church leaders during the Middle Ages.

Your logic runs on the lines of, "individual X follows Y; Y has no control over X, yet X is evil...thus, Y is evil and dangerous, also."

Taking this one step further, using your logic, I'm able to proclaim that communism revolves around evil since so many leaders that proclaimed themselves communists murdered others in the millions.

[El Tipo]

I see humans as inviduals and we make our own decisions and if one religious man gets 100 rednecks behind hes cause to lynch blackpeople its not the bible that started it, it is the human stupidity. This goes for wars and all the things that the religion isnt about. You cannot say for sure that God exist or it doesnt exist because it is matter of faith, also you cannot say that "My god is real and yours isnt" still a matter of faith. Many evil men have said that "God is in our side" (Bush, Osama, Hitler.. and so on) but god does not takes sides, so please do not blame religion because of the human stupidity.

[BuyOurEverything]

That is foolish; it is not religion itself that perpetrates these evils...it more so has to do with the evil of individuals, such as so many Church leaders during the Middle Ages.

Bullshit. You think people are naturally evil?


Your logic runs on the lines of, "individual X follows Y; Y has no control over X, yet X is evil...thus, Y is evil and dangerous, also."

He never said Y has no control over X or that X was evil, you made that up. How can you say that religion has no control over people?

Anyways, religion is not 'basically good.' It's at best a mildly oppressive supersticious, and, well, we've all seen it's worst.

[El Tipo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 02:10 AM
You think people are naturally evil?

Greed, Fear/Anger, Hate, for example these feelings mostly are the reasons that man takes life from another. And because you dont want be "evil" you hide it behind a cause.. democracy, liberty, religion.. or so. And as I said I have studied satanism (atheism; denial of god) and it teaches that these feelings are "OK" where for example in christianity you have to beware of these feelings, because they cause misery in some point. Humans are cruel but its not because of religion, okay now someone is going to point out that there has been wars between religion, ofcourse again there is fear, greed, hate behind this and bible says "Love your enemies".. so you see the conflict there? Okay and I say hell with borders, nationalities and idealisms they are the same!! But then again the idealism doesnt command you to kill capitalist if your a communist, try understand religions/idealism/nationalities and so on dont kill people its the endless stupidity of men, so my answer is, yes we have the evil inside us, some of us control it well and some surrender to it..

[Pawn Power]

Originally posted by Brooklyn-[email protected] 12 2004, 01:28 AM

That is foolish; it is not religion itself that perpetrates these evils...it more so has to do with the evil of individuals, such as so many Church leaders during the Middle Ages.

Your logic runs on the lines of, "individual X follows Y; Y has no control over X, yet X is evil...thus, Y is evil and dangerous, also."

Taking this one step further, using your logic, I'm able to proclaim that communism revolves around evil since so many leaders that proclaimed themselves communists murdered others in the millions.
even with your point of the evil in the church leaders it is still the religion that fuels the fire of this hatred of other human beings. It is not that religions have evil conotations but individuals get cought up in these teachings and think it is the perfect answer. As Marx said religion is the opium of the masses.

[pandora]

I think faith is good, that people should have faith in something as a goal post to moral disipline, but the minute moral disipline goes from being an internal to an external phenomen then it's crap.

Moral disipline is about the individual monitaring themselves, like Guevara did, not about worrying about others.

I think Religion, ie. the church in or secatarism is crap. I really don't see much use for it aside for supporting individual religious retreats, in that if someone wants to meditate instead of working to develop internally they should be supported by the state, in that most true innovations in this world have been created by individuals on a mystic pillgramage of sorts to discover what's going on in their own minds, what is truth, what is love, etc. It has nothing to do with organized religion, and everything to do with critical thinking and the ability to study and contemplate in an isolated location.

[Solace]

Like we didn’t have enough theology thread these days. Freak.


It is not that religions have evil conotations but individuals get cought up in these teachings and think it is the perfect answer.


if one religious man gets 100 rednecks behind hes cause to lynch blackpeople its not the bible that started it, it is the human stupidity. This goes for wars and all the things that the religion isnt about.


god does not takes sides, so please do not blame religion because of the human stupidity.

But what is religion without the people?

If the two cannot work out as it should be, what does it mean then?

Those who kill in the name of religion might have other motives to do so, but in most cases, they absolutely believe that what they are doing is right. I can bet on anything I have that when Georges W. Bush says “God is on our side” he absolutely means it. He definitely believes that he is doing the “right thing”. You start giving yourself liberty that you wouldn’t normally have, for the sake of your God.

And you can’t argue that it is fundamentalism. It’s a negative effect of religion. A very common effect.

(The funny thing about it is that those who do wrong in the name of religion are immediately ostracised as “not true”.)

Everything is perfect… until you add the human factor.

[El Tipo]

I have so bad english, I could get these in finnish but not in english so I found this Christianity FAQ (http://www.geocities.com/yahmdallah/christianity.html) So read all of it and you will get a broader view on christianity. I have collected some key figures here so here it goes. And I am only protecting my religion and believes by this because it seems that you have bit odd way seeing things.


Why does God allow suffering and injustice?
We humans allow most of the suffering and injustice that we encounter. It's up to us to make things better and more fair. The suffering and injustice that we cause or allow to happen is what God considers sin.

Also, there IS evil in the world, and there are evil people in the world. Sometimes pure, unmitigated evil is the cause for suffering. This is a hard fact to face, but it is true. However, please use caution in judging someone as evil. Often what appears to be evil can be the result of something other than evil, such as insanity or lack of understanding.

---

Why are so many Christians close-minded hate mongers?
Good question. Everything Jesus did, said, and stands for would go against this. I think this goes back to the person and not the faith. There are, and always will be, close-minded, mean people. (One of the ways they manifest themselves is using the phrase or concept "God hates _____," such as, "God hates sin." The words "God" and "hate" do not really belong in the same sentence.) Just because they happen to be Christian, and tie a lot of how they live their own mean little lives into what they preach and perceive, does not devalue the faith, God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit.

In other words, jerks are everywhere. Just because they are Christian doesn't save them from being jerks. For example, if someone who works in a bookstore is a jerk, do you assume that every book in the store is bad because of it? Of course not. So, if you encounter a mean person who claims to be a Christian, avoid the person, but don't elect that person as a representative of the whole faith.

This is actually a symptom of a much larger problem. Increasingly these days in America, we (and particularly the media) tend to classify and define a group via the worst part of that group. Let me explain. Every group, whether it's Christian, Jewish, Moslem, Black, Asian, White, Democrat, Republican, sport utility vehicle drivers, mini-van drivers, etc., etc., can usually be depicted as belonging on some part of a bell curve of behaviors. Let's imagine that on one side of the bell curve (http://www.geocities.com/yahmdallah/bellcurv.jpg) are all the really good people in that group, on the other side are all the schmucks, and in the bulging middle are the rest of the folks somewhere along the continuum. Then, take the schmucks and think of them as comprising the whole of the group.

For example, think of the worst cliché or description you can for a Christian, a Jew, or a Muslim, and then think of the whole group in those terms. This is what I'm saying happens all too often. Well, of course, the overwhelming majority of each of these groups is not like that. Half of the people you deal with everyday belong to one of those groups, and do they fit this terrible definition you've imagined? One of the central ideas of all three religions is fostering the love and respect due to everyone, and a love and desire for peace and harmony with one another and God/Jehovah/Allah (all the same Guy, by the way). That should be the perception we have of each group.

So, if you catch yourself thinking of any group as the clichéd definition determined by the worst in that group, STOP IT!

---

I hope this helped some of us to understand my point, maybe, maybe not. I hope it did.

[Comrade BNS]

As Marx said religion is the opium of the masses.

and as I said "Marx is the opium of the left"...so many "so called" communists and leftists are extremely critical and analytically scathing of the right and other elements of society, which is to be commended sincerely. However turn the spot light on the left, and/or the writings of marx, and suddenly they no longer become the "WRITINGS" of marx but instead the eternal infalliable "TEACHINGS" of marx. come on people untill you can openly criticise and analyse the words of marx, you have no right or place to dissemble religion. All that has changed between communists and christians is the names, places and symbols (metaphorically speaking). Don't be so dogmatic, ignorant and self-serving! read between the lines, critically analyse!

and to reply to earlier comments that religion is illogical....you're exactly right. In most respects religion is completely illogical, but that's not the point. It is supposed to be illogical. That is the very nature of it, it requires you to have faith and trust in something indefineable. One could also make the criticism of science that it is not irrational, and is un-emotional. but again what would be the point, it was designed to have such qualities.

as Nietzsche said "...if you desire peace and happines of soul; then believe. But if you would be a disciple of truth then inquire..."

Comrade BNS

[LSD]

In other words, jerks are everywhere. Just because they are Christian doesn't save them from being jerks. For example, if someone who works in a bookstore is a jerk, do you assume that every book in the store is bad because of it? Of course not. So, if you encounter a mean person who claims to be a Christian, avoid the person, but don't elect that person as a representative of the whole faith.
!

Yes, of course no one is saying that converting to Christianity immediately transforms one into an unfeeling bastard, but the point is that dogmatic religions allow a freedom of action that a secular life could never provide.

If one did not believe in the afterlife do you think they would blow themselves up as easily?

If one did not believe in an eternal reward would they be as quick to matar themselves?

And if one did no believe that they were devinely inspired would they be as quick to attack those who they did not belive were as well?


Religion is not the cause of human misery, but it has definetly been a major instigator of it. So much of modern oppression is based on notions that emerged from religous texts that one must wonder whether a correlation exists. Religion by its bery nature is irrational, it is predicated on the idea that one must simply believe without proof. Whether this is good or not is debatable, but what is not is that such a belief system intrinsically lends itself to abuse. For if one believes with no evidence, they will do almost anything.

Jesus probably never existed, but the myth and the doctrine surrounding the idea of a "Jesus" has created one of the most powerful forced in human history. That latent power of religion has been misused so many times in human history. that it is pretty much doubtless that although it would not solve all problems, we would be far healthier as a society if religon were to disappear tomorrow (not that that's going to happen, of course!).

[DORRI]

Originally posted by Socialsmo o [email protected] 11 2004, 06:52 PM
And linking to the topic, of course Islam now regards my father as an apostate who shall burn in hell.


islam asks everybody (muslims & non-muslims)to research about not only islam but also every idea(it's stated in quran) and choose the best to practice.
if somebody study about islam and dont find it the best there is no must for him to practice it,so if your father thinks that has fulfilled his duty about researching about islam,there will be no punishment looking forward to him,but only if he thinks that has fulfilled his duty.
i myself tried many ideas and finally even after long period of being marxist,found islam more complete than any other one and chose it.but it is simply possible for someone and as a result of many situations to reach to another result and not to choose islam.
islam stresses on trying

[redstar2000]

Once more into the muck, eh?


Say what you will about Religion, the fact of the matter is everyone has to face up to an unknowable and unanswerable question in this life of creation, where we came from.

An unanswerable question is an oxymoron...not really a question at all!

There's nothing there to face up to.


...this world is irrational.

No it isn't. It actually operates according to a relatively small list of "laws" involving causes and effects that can be easily demonstrated and many of which can be mathematically modeled with considerable accuracy.

If superstition were "true", then the world would indeed be "irrational"...divine interference could upset any "law" of cause and effect at any time.


And as I said I have studied satanism (atheism; denial of god)...

Didn't study it very hard, did you? Satanism is a Christian heresy; it simply inverts the Biblical hierarchy of "the other world" so that "Satan is Lord" while "God is evil".

Atheists do not take any of that rubbish seriously...except with regard to its social role, of course.


Like we didn’t have enough theology threads these days. Freak.

I couldn't agree more, Solace. Why do so many of these godsuckers come here? Aren't there a veritable horde of religious message boards where they could hang out?

And always the same wretched "arguments"..."peace and love" until they get their grubby paws on some levers of power; then, when they have the chance to really cut loose, look out!

Of course, they claim to "respect the faiths of others". That's why they celebrate Christmas in Mecca and why guys wearing turbans are never hassled in American airports. (!)


Why does God allow suffering and injustice?

We humans allow most of the suffering and injustice that we encounter.

Do you know what bone cancer is? A rare form of cancer, it is probably the most painful and agonizing death that a human can experience. No human torturer can match it.

Thanks, "God". :huh:

And thanks for all the other wonderful illnesses "You" gave us. Along with hurricanes, earthquakes, volcanoes, tidal waves, droughts and floods and blizzards, etc.

I guess "You" weren't very good at this "world creation" stuff, were "You"?

Perhaps Woody Allen was right when he said that "You" were "an underachiever".


Just because they are Christian doesn't save them from being jerks.

Does that mean that when we die and "go to Heaven" that we still can't get away from the jerks? :o


One of the central ideas of all three religions is fostering the love and respect due to everyone, and a love and desire for peace and harmony with one another and God/Jehovah/Allah (all the same Guy, by the way). That should be the perception we have of each group.

Right up to the point where it's time to cut the cheese -- see which racket gets most of the plunder. Then all that love, respect, peace, and harmony gets locked away and it's time for "Onward Christian (Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, etc.) Soldiers!" :angry:


However turn the spot light on the left, and/or the writings of Marx, and suddenly they no longer become the "WRITINGS" of Marx but instead the eternal infallible "TEACHINGS" of Marx. Come on, people, until you can openly criticise and analyse the words of Marx, you have no right or place to dissemble religion.

Haven't been paying attention to the other forums, have you?

Very well, try this...

On "Dialectics" -- The Heresy Posts May 8, 2003 (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/monthlytheoryarchives.php?subaction=showfull&id=1052322305&archive=1054467213&cnshow=archive&start_from=&ucat=&)

The fact is, we communists criticize our "holy prophets" all the time. A "religious" attitude towards any political figure is regarded as fundamentally anti-communist.

Which it is.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[Wenty]

You might redstar but an awful lot I've found to be horribly dogmatic (inc. you actually)

A few responses:-


An unanswerable question is an oxymoron...not really a question at all!

A rhetorical question then if you're going to be picky. Nevertheless my point remains.


No it isn't. It actually operates according to a relatively small list of "laws" involving causes and effects that can be easily demonstrated and many of which can be mathematically modeled with considerable accuracy.

What I meant by this was explained in my post right after your quote. I was talking about at the very start of creation. Stop mainpulating my comments! Besides the laws of nature etc have changed over the years, whats to stop them changing again?

The problem of evil is as old as the hills. I suggest you look at C.S Lewis' book 'The Problem of Pain' and Leibniz's 'Theodicy' which addresses the problem of evil better than I can.

Lastly, read the first post of this topic. Its not by anyone religious is it!

Also,
Why do so many of these godsuckers come here?

Because you can be left and religious thats why. I'm as tired of debating Religion as you too btw.

[trotskylicious]

Sure you can be left and religious. But its impossible to be communist and religious.
Communists want socialist revolution. No reliance on a mystical being to help them through the worlds suffering. If you're religious, there really isn't any reason to fight for change on earth, because when you die you get to end up in this magical place called heaven, or this wretched place called hell. Hell is capitalism.
Communist see the world with a material analysis. We see the world for what it is and study it. There are reasons why racism, sexism and starvation exist. Not because someone dreamed it up. Not because it exist in our minds. Not because humans are inheritantly greedy or lazy. Study some other history besides the good book.

[redstar2000]

I was talking about at the very start of creation.

Good grief! Aside from a small number of theoretical cosmologists, who the hell really cares "how we got here".

We're here, dammit, and there's no other option available.

The idea that past or present uncertainties about the origins of the universe "justifies" the erection of an edifice of superstition is just stupid!


Besides the laws of nature, etc., have changed over the years; what's to stop them changing again?

What are you babbling about here? What laws of nature have "changed"?


The problem of evil is as old as the hills. I suggest you look at C.S Lewis' book The Problem of Pain...

I've read it. Lewis argues that pain is a "wake-up call" from "God"...he does it to "get us to pay attention" to "Him".

What a sweetie-poo. :wub:

Not only do you defend the "existence" of this celestial sadist, but I'll bet you expect us to love "Him".

Fuck you!!! :angry:


Lastly, read the first post of this topic. It's not by anyone religious, is it!

Here is a quote from "that first post"...


I'm a firm believer that if religion is practiced properly, only good and peace can come of it.

I can't tell from this if he is a believer or not, but he's certainly pro-religious.


Because you can be left and religious, that's why.

Bah! Humbug!

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[Heesh]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 05:36 PM
Sure you can be left and religious. But its impossible to be communist and religious.
Communists want socialist revolution. No reliance on a mystical being to help them through the worlds suffering. If you're religious, there really isn't any reason to fight for change on earth, because when you die you get to end up in this magical place called heaven, or this wretched place called hell. Hell is capitalism.
Communist see the world with a material analysis. We see the world for what it is and study it. There are reasons why racism, sexism and starvation exist. Not because someone dreamed it up. Not because it exist in our minds. Not because humans are inheritantly greedy or lazy. Study some other history besides the good book.
Not all religions, such as Islam, deny the value of the material world.

[El Tipo]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 07:06 PM
Didn't study it very hard, did you? Satanism is a Christian heresy; it simply inverts the Biblical hierarchy of "the other world" so that "Satan is Lord" while "God is evil".


Im not sure did I understand you correctly but satanism is more like philosophy against christianity not a religion there aint god/satan in satanism, might be that I didnt understand you correctly but, here goes nothing: Please read the satanism FAQ (http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/cosinfopack.pdf)

[cubist]

i have been there done th christian thing, and blind faith premotes ignorance it completely true,

but the church is a usefull tool for the worker whilst capitalism is in place so leave peopel in fairy tale land it does no harm, until crazy right wing men get there grips on it and use it to push ideals and make people do things that are somewhat unethicaL IF NOT IN THE NAME OF GOD.


AS FOR SATANISM INVERTING CHRISTIANITY,

IT IS TRUE THAT SIR ANTON LAVEY SAID the christians need me for them to thrive, but through my undrstandsing it not an invert of christianity, it doesn't incoprerate the same lucifer and merely worship him, it incorperates very rigid humanist ideals and some personal interface, very different from christianity it just about as nothing other than the word satan as a similarity inverted or not

if it was just and invert of christianity then satanism would have the 7 good things,

greed,lust vegance jealousy etc

it would have the ten not quite so moral commandments,

you must murder,
you must covet thy nieghbours ass
you must steal

etc
i think you compadre haven't read it properly

[Wenty]

ah, dogmatism, how it infects this board; seeping into every section like a flea carrying the plague!


The idea that past or present uncertainties about the origins of the universe "justifies" the erection of an edifice of superstition is just stupid!

For goodness sake man stop twisting my words! I was merely pointing out that whatever you say about religion be it for or against it the question as to our creation how everything got started is unanswerable. I don't think any religion is illogical if you look at it this way. We can't possibly begin to understand how anything really came into being, so technically anythings possible.

You'd make a good politican, I'll give you that.

The title of this topic is 'The Ignorance of Religion' by the way, I don't think the person could be too for it then.

[cubist]

You'd make a good politican, I'll give you that.

hes to honest to be a politician

[redstar2000]

I was merely pointing out that whatever you say about religion, be it for or against it, the question as to our creation how everything got started is unanswerable. I don't think any religion is illogical if you look at it this way. We can't possibly begin to understand how anything really came into being, so technically anything's possible.

If I sometimes seem to "twist your words", it's not intentional. I do my best to try to understand what you're getting at...but you make it extremely difficult.

Is the question of the origin of the universe "unanswerable"? Presently, that's true. Will it "always" be true? No one knows.

Does this have anything to do with whether religion is "logical" or "illogical"?

Not that I can see. Religion is not wrong because it is illogical...though existing religions almost always are illogical. In principle, one could construct an entirely "logical" faith -- the problem is that its initial assumptions would have no real world referents.

That's what is wrong with religion; it has no real world referents, no connection with reality at all. It claims that it does...but all the evidence refutes its claims and there is no evidence to support them.

As to your assertion that we "cannot possibly begin to understand how anything really came into being", that's just palpably wrong.

We have a very good, though still incomplete, understanding of the origins of our solar system and of our planet. We have an improving understanding of the origins of species.

Thanks to Marx, we have a pretty good understanding of social forms and how they begin, grow, and decline.

When you assert that "technically anything's possible", you're wrong!

It is definitely impossible, for example, for dead people to "rise from the grave".

But it is certainly possible for people to lie about that.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[Wenty]

You say religion has no connection to reality and thats it, you're not giving me any reason to believe you over them.


As to your assertion that we "cannot possibly begin to understand how anything really came into being", that's just palpably wrong.

Theoretical physics has shown us much about how the universe began etc (although obviously never 100% conclusive). However, my point was this and its written in an earlier post. Take a faith, i.e. Christianity, Christians believe God created the world etc. Take an atheist, i.e. you. Different atheists I'm supposing have different beliefs as to how the universe and everything was created. My point was a very simplistic and old as the hills one; I was saying well whatever you believe the question as to 'How God got there?' or 'How the Gas etc for the big bang got there?' is never going to be answered.

If anything, the comment was intended to help illustrate how atheists and theists aren't entirely different. We're both trying to find answers in an unbelieveably complex world.

[shyguywannadie]

I'm athiest, I hate religion and religious people, it should all be banned.

Religion is the height of stupidity.

[An Independent Thought]

I did not read most of this thread but I felt the need to reply

Firstly I am a Christian
I am a christian now because I know that god exists and I know this because when I was about 5 or 6 years old I had a vision and also I used to talk in voices (pray in a non human language as is described in the bible)

[An Independent Thought]

and also why do athists feel the need to belittle the beliefs of any one who has differing views? :angry:

[redstar2000]

You say religion has no connection to reality and that's it; you're not giving me any reason to believe you over them.

I'm not asking you to "believe" me. Try to find a single real-world problem with a religious "explanation" that can be verified.

Investigate the matter thoroughly...as you might if you were going to purchase a new house or car or lend someone a significant amount of money.

I predict you'll come up empty.


My point was a very simplistic and old as the hills one; I was saying well whatever you believe, the question [of ultimate origins]...is never going to be answered.

And I was saying maybe that's true and maybe it isn't.

It's too soon to tell.

And in any event, so what? It's something that would be interesting to know but has minimal significance for our real lives.


I did not read most of this thread but I felt the need to reply.

Firstly I am a Christian.

I am a Christian now because I know that God exists, and I know this because when I was about 5 or 6 years old, I had a vision, and also I used to talk in voices (pray in a non-human language as is described in the bible).

And also why do atheists feel the need to belittle the beliefs of any one who has differing views?

You answered your own question. The rule on message boards -- especially this one -- is: say dumb things, get belittled!

What was your imaginary "God" thinking of when he "appeared" to a "five or six-year old child" while overlooking me?

And of what possible use is a prayer in a "non-human" language?

I think it's time for you to grow up and "put away childish things"...like Christianity.

Also, I think it would do you a great deal of good to read all of this thread and a sampling of some of the other threads we've had here on this topic.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[Pawn Power]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 12 2004, 06:52 AM




and to reply to earlier comments that religion is illogical....you're exactly right. In most respects religion is completely illogical, but that's not the point. It is supposed to be illogical. That is the very nature of it, it requires you to have faith and trust in something indefineable. One could also make the criticism of science that it is not irrational, and is un-emotional. but again what would be the point, it was designed to have such qualities.


[/quote]
you must understand that we will never trully be free of violence and hatred until all religion is destroyed their is just no avoiding this
i am sorry

i do have faith, faith in the REVOLUTION

[Pete]

Religion teaches us that life is futile. Or atleast that life in this world is futile. Take that as you will. I'll take my amoral nonreligious tao over any god you care to throw at me.

Religion is not necessarly ignorant. If it was, then why has it existed for so long? Why has it controlled so many people? They have to be doing something right. I think it lies in the theology of futility that I keep reading again and again from Ecclesiastes through the Puranas, the Tao-te-ching, Greek myths, and so on.

I only read the first three posts, and I don't plan on posting here again for a while (its been a while since my last post too).

Just beware of moralistic theology and the futility theology. They are what get people.

[cubist]

I did not read most of this thread but I felt the need to reply

Firstly I am a Christian
I am a christian now because I know that god exists and I know this because when I was about 5 or 6 years old I had a vision and also I used to talk in voices (pray in a non human language as is described in the bible)



i must ask how do you know behond all doubt yourgod yaqweh exists? what makes your beliefs more right than muslims buddhists and hinduists? muslims willing to die for there faith must have witnessed something right? they can't just be tricked by one clever leader?
if your so certain are you saying others are wrong?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Right that's it, I'm starting my own religion, Sadarkism.

Sadark is an agenderous being outside of this material realm who is appeased by mortal indulgence and excess. Whatever pleases you pleases Sadark, as by pleasuring in his/her name you give your soul for him/her to devour, which is a great honour.

Anybody wanna be assistant high priest/ess?

[redstar2000]

Religion is not necessarily ignorant. If it was, then why has it existed for so long? Why has it controlled so many people? They have to be doing something right.

There are many reasons, of course.

But one of them certainly lies in the realm of what Dwight MacDonald once called "a flexibility of spine & nose for the main chance".

By sucking up to every ruling class, no matter how horrible, religion has usually managed to reinforce its celestial weaponry with real earthly weaponry.

"Onward Christian Soldiers" is more than just a song.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[Hate Is Art]

By sucking up to every ruling class, no matter how horrible, religion has usually managed to reinforce its celestial weaponry with real earthly weaponry.

"Onward Christian Soldiers" is more than just a song.


The crusades are easily the best example of this! Or Muslim Jihad's.


a flexibility of spine & nose for the main chance

I wish I knew what that meant?

[cubist]

i still think that something which has, no material evidence just paranormal phenomena that only believers experience, and requires you to deny all material evidence against with blind arrogance or faith and renounce all other religions claimed gods, is ignorant.

[Wenty]

I don't believe that in the slightest. Think about how unbelievably complex and vast this world is; it must have been created by something. If you're an atheist then you still have to ask where the gas originated from to create the big bang or whatever. Similarly for God, where did he come from? This world is irrational, we know so little about it, Religion isn't ignorant, its an answer to the complexity.

Our knowledge is so minute, we've only begun to touch the surface of what could possibly be out there. The existence of a deity is in no way out of the question. Thats just my opinion.

[cubist]

i am not an atheist but the conept of a creator and the concept of a complete religious story with no evidence are two completely different things,

yes the world may have been created, notice i use MAY, but to assume that the book you happen to read which has no evidence other than the books existance, and the fact it accounts for some of history. the tribes of isreal the existance of the medianites, etc. is completely un falsifiable and worship this god and deny all other religions the dignity you acclaim for yourself, is completely ignorant.

just like to renounce GOD completley is ignorant as at point of creation there is no recorded evidence to sugesst either way, one merely extropolates possiblility from history and evidence and the other relies on blind faith.

but the thread isn't why creationism is ignorant its why religion is ignorant last time i checked there wasn't a religion called agnosticism

[Revolt!]

Lets debate some Philosophy and less Theology.

[Wenty]

Religious people don't base their faith on just their holy book do they.

Its about answered prayers, fulfilled prophecies and miracles, in part. Something we can't really debate about.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Religious people don't base their faith on just their holy book do they.

Its about answered prayers, fulfilled prophecies and miracles, in part. Something we can't really debate about.

Yes we can 'debate' it: we call bullshit, as such things do not exist.

People are always looking for a crack to lever open with their spiritual crowbar. Or failing that, beat some infidel's head in with it.

Religion is the prerogative of savagery.

[Wenty]

Yes we can 'debate' it: we call bullshit, as such things do not exist.

How can you possibly know these things don't exist? How can I convince you that they 100% do exist? The answer to both those questions is in the negative. You can't and I can't.

What kind of a world do you think we're living in? It isn't rational, it can't all be explained by science. The complexity of this Universe leaves us with very little we can ever be sure of. You can't dismiss things that easily.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

How can you possibly know these things don't exist? How can I convince you that they 100% do exist? The answer to both those questions is in the negative. You can't and I can't.

No physical evidence of god nor any repeatable experiments which prove He does/n't exist- therefore no god/s. And if you claim another plane of existance, you've just shifted the problem.


What kind of a world do you think we're living in? It isn't rational, it can't all be explained by science. The complexity of this Universe leaves us with very little we can ever be sure of. You can't dismiss things that easily.

No, science doesn't explain everything. Most rational scientists will admit that. But it works a lot more often compared to religion
It is rational; even the apparently chaotic world of nature follows instructions, and also remember the entire universe is an emergent system, a very complex thing arising out of a few simple rules (Rules which we haven't fully discovered yet, but give us time...)

The goal of science is not to establish a body of facts, but to seek more questions by asking questions.

Why is the sky blue? = Because it scatters the light
How does it do that? = light bounces off air particles at a particular wavelength

It arrives at these answers (And more questions!) by observation of the real world (Experiments and actually observing things and taking notes)

You getting the idea? Just because every answer opens up a hundred more questions doesn't mean we're not gaining anything.

[canikickit]

Its about answered prayers, fulfilled prophecies and miracles, in part. Something we can't really debate about.

What are these things? What about the unfulfilled prophecies, the unanswered prayers? I write all that shit off to luck and coincidence.

What's a miracle?

[Wenty]

The science point wasn't even close to the main point of the post.


No physical evidence of god nor any repeatable experiments which prove He does/n't exist- therefore no god/s. And if you claim another plane of existance, you've just shifted the problem.

So everything you believe has to have physical evidence? Which would be..? Also, how can you go about proving God's existence through physical experiments?! If you start with the premise of what he is, i.e. a deity. What are you expecting to find?


What are these things? What about the unfulfilled prophecies, the unanswered prayers? I write all that shit off to luck and coincidence.

What's a miracle?

I suggest you read C.S Lewis' God in the Dock for a much greater definition on Miracles and a much better explanation of the other points raised here.

[redstar2000]

Also, how can you go about proving God's existence through physical experiments?! If you start with the premise of what he is, i.e. a deity. What are you expecting to find?

Obviously, what we'd expect to find is "natural laws" that suddenly ceased to operate for no discernible materialist reason; that is, miracles.

If it could be convincingly demonstrated that only some kind of "supernatural" explanation "fitted the facts", then you'd be "on your way" to "proving that God existed".

Beyond this, I speculated once on what we could expect to see if a particular religion was "really true".

First of all, we'd see immediately that the followers of the "true religion" would behave conspicuously better than the followers of false religions or non-believers.

Because of their pious obedience to the will of the "true god", He/She/It would reward them with conspicuous good fortune in their earthly lives. He/She/It would "look after" those who worshiped "correctly" while turning away from false believers or non-believers. Prayers from the faithful would receive favorable answers while "bad luck" would be the portion of others.

Neither of these phenomena have ever been observed, of course. The believers themselves acknowledge this, complaining bitterly that "the righteous grievously suffer" while the sinners "wax great in the land".

Empirically, the recipe for "success" in this world is to utterly ignore all the gods...especially if you plan a career in the priesthood.


I suggest you read C.S Lewis' God in the Dock...

I've read that one too...though its arguments were so weak that I can't even remember them.

But I think when you want to make a reference to a book or an author that most people are unfamiliar with, you should at least attempt to summarize the argument(s) that you find most convincing. Otherwise, people have no way of knowing whether you have a real response or are simply arguing from "authority".

Lewis was a "big voice" for "generic Christianity" in England back in the 1940s...but most people today have probably never heard of him (unless they know of him as a friend and colleague of J.R.R. Tolkien).

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[Wenty]

Well I just couldn't be bothered to spend all my time posting on Religion!

I'm glad you've read some C.S Lewis because it means both sides of the story are being read and on an aside I think he is still fairly well known but probably for his Narnia books more than his religious stuff which any atheist should read if just to get a better perspective on things.

Anyway, some interesting ideas you have.

[cubist]

Religious people don't base their faith on just their holy book do they.

Its about answered prayers, fulfilled prophecies and miracles, in part. Something we can't really debate about.

yes so it is

but prophecies came from that book!!!! and prayer well that could be just talking to yourself, the fact that humans get better when you prayed for them doesn't mean that they wouldn't have got better with out prayer!!

the protestants believe more in the book than anything else and the catholics have idolised the mother of christ.

we can debate prophecies but thats part of the super contraversal bible

and we can't debate prayer until god is proven to exist! and you can't use talking to yourself and justification of the existance of god more justification of mans reliance on self assurance

[Wenty]

Maybe so, maybe not but hey is this going nowhere? Yes, because ultimately no one has the answer. Believe what you like.

[cubist]

absolutely, no one has ever said you can't believe in god, only you should be aware of the vast amount of inconsistancies in the religions claims,

but this thread was about how reliigon has created an ignorance which is so ignorant it defies evidence for things like "feelings of a psycological nature" like gods presence in you, you know that warm feeling you get after someone has triggured your endorphines.

"becuase its magic is not the answer"

and ontop of this ignorance they believe that killing people is a good thing in the name of the lord. praise the lord for he kills innocent men and women of different religious and non religious denominations

[che's long lost daughter]

Another thing about religion which is really ridiculous is that every religion claims that if you join them, you will enjoy salvation. Each one says "join us and you will be saved". Hell, I think there would be a greater chance for me to suffer eternal damnation when I join them so I chose not to belong to any religion because the churches are only filled of scary statues of saints that look at you and tells you that you are a sinner and the rest would be hypocritical lots.

[Wenty]

ah you're such a free thinker eh!


Each one says "join us and you will be saved".

Not all religions say this, maybe the main three and thats only because technically they're praising the same God.

[cubist]

i assume that wasn't directed at me?

but seriously wenty, religion promises so much but prooves so little its just stupid

[DaCuBaN]

I seem to be saying these words a lot but....

I&#39;m sure someone once said religion was a sport. I can see that :D :rolleyes: <_< :blink:

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

I dont like bringing in cliches but Marx did say it best, religion is the opiate of the masses. At the moment I am leaning towards an anthropological explanation of God as idea.

[God of Imperia]

A bit off topic prob but don&#39;t you think music is the opiate of the younger generation? Music is very powerful to influence people and defenitly the youth ... For good, but more for bad.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Music is a good opiate, probably the most aesthetic form of rapture there is.

[Wenty]

Why focus on the younger generation? If it was an opiate then it would be an opiate for all...

Geist - you sound more humanist with each post.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Possible, I have been under the influence of Voegelin and Nietzsche a lot lately. I seem to be drifting that way anyway.

[apathy maybe]

Shame on you redstar2000 for suggesting that no one has ever heard of CS Lewis. This great man wrote the Narnia series (The Lion, The Witch & The Wardrobe any one?) Admittedly he was a teeny bit too religious, but that only really came out in the latter books.

Someone wrote that &#39;yes religion is ignorant, that is the point&#39; or something like that. And I say yes I agree. But I also say that people are going to continue to be ignorant whether they have religion or not. Added to which I also say that the "new religion" (I love that term, I think I might use it again and again now&#33;). science, is also ignorant. It just keeps getting less ignorant, but still it doesn&#39;t really prove a thing (to the normal everyday average kind of person).

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 02:10 AM

That is foolish; it is not religion itself that perpetrates these evils...it more so has to do with the evil of individuals, such as so many Church leaders during the Middle Ages.

Bullshit. You think people are naturally evil?


Your logic runs on the lines of, "individual X follows Y; Y has no control over X, yet X is evil...thus, Y is evil and dangerous, also."

He never said Y has no control over X or that X was evil, you made that up. How can you say that religion has no control over people?

Anyways, religion is not &#39;basically good.&#39; It&#39;s at best a mildly oppressive supersticious, and, well, we&#39;ve all seen it&#39;s worst.
Actually I dont think you have addressed his main point, and he never said people were naturally evil, he said individuals were, of course you could debate the existance of evil, but im sure most people would consider Hitler to be evil.

[cubist]

geist you of all people should know

"that religion is the opiate of the masses" is the most out of context quote from marx&#39;s work, he also said it was a vile creature.

as for people being ignorant yes people are always going to be ignorant, but why breed it.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by apathy [email protected] 19 2004, 11:16 AM
Shame on you redstar2000 for suggesting that no one has ever heard of CS Lewis. This great man wrote the Narnia series (The Lion, The Witch & The Wardrobe any one?) Admittedly he was a teeny bit too religious, but that only really came out in the latter books.


No because Aslan was obviously meant to be jesus in the first book. (was it the lion the which and the wardrobe that Aslan was stabbed on the alter?) cant remember I havent read them in about 10-12 years.

[apathy maybe]

The Lion, The Witch & The Wardrobe was written first. The came other books in the Narnia series (can&#39;t remember the order). Then came the first one (which I can&#39;t remember the name of). So while you read them in one order, they were written in another order. And yes Aslan gets stabbed in the The Lion, The Witch & The Wardrobe. (I don&#39;t see how that book was ever meant to be stand alone. When I found out (after reading the series the first time) I was shocked.)

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 11:32 AM
geist you of all people should know

"that religion is the opiate of the masses" is the most out of context quote from marx&#39;s work, he also said it was a vile creature.

as for people being ignorant yes people are always going to be ignorant, but why breed it.
I guess, it is why I was reluctant to post it but there is an element of truth in it regardless of who said it.

Perhaps I should put my own spin on it. To me religion serves a vital function which can be considered a kind of opiate. Disregarding whether or not God exists (I hold a firm agnostic stance) religion appeals to the illogical part of man, what Nietzsche would call the Dionysian state.

Personally I think such a state is neccessary but I dont think we ned religion as such to fulfill this function, I think music and art suffice or could fill in the void left by the death of religion or God.

Hope that gets my view across.

[cubist]

i concour with you except i believe when communism exists everyone will be fulfilled and the opiate won&#39;t be required at all, and will be rightly labelled as superstition like walking infront of black cats

[Revolt!]

sounds more like idealism is dictating that opinion more than realism being accounted for.