Military Escalation

[the end of history]

So what is everyone's opinions on the current "war" being waged by our "president"? I really want to find some people NOT in the 80 something precent of mindless drones who support war mongering in one of the poorest countries in the world under the premise of helping them out. Oh Yeah, and those who can see that this is indeed about revenge, not justice, I mean, come on, you don't use an army to capture criminals, do you? If someone has already posted a topic similar to this, sorry for repeating, but I'm new in the community and want to find out what the people here think.

[GuerrillaFMLN]

basically this is an attempt to raise popularity foir a president that has no other successes than perhaps some military advances.

"War" in this case is a horrible term because "war" is a term that is bestowed by the legistlature, the congress. The Executive brabch cant just go willy nilly and go declaring war on abstract paramilitary groups.

So now that we see that this isnt a war, what is it? You are correct in saying its revenge, and its also a popularity contest. And while were there, lets build a pro- U.S. country in the middle east, a historic trouble spot for the U.S.

Weve killed more civilians in our attacks that died in the 9-11 attacks, yet we persist. I agree that somone like Osama should be caught, but we should have thought of that before we created him with the help of the CIA.

Do I support this war...hell no. this could have been done through diplomatic channels. But as you say, 80% of this world just takes whats given to them.

[the end of history]

I agree with you that all of this is a way for a (at one time at least) somewhat unpopular president that many people feel bought, scammed, or "inherited" the title. The fact that this is increasing his popularity SO much does indeed get the "Wag the Dog" scenarios going. What if, and this is indeed a what if (I realize nothing this farfetched could be true) such a scenario were to happen? What if all of this is some grand scheme? I know that it could never be like that, but still, it all seems convienient. But on the other hand, Osama has been around for a long time, as has terrorism, the Taliban, and Al Qaeda, which raises another question, why now? Why does the U$, which has known about all the afforementioned people/ organizations for a while, just now start to care? Because we got attacked. It got to the point where everyone in the world had been terrorized for decades before we launched the "war" on terrorism. But did anyone in the U$ care, hell no. You really think anyone in this country (with the exception of an enlightened few, like the ones here) cares about anyone or anything but themselves? Hell no. The only time we do anything is in our own interestes, often times under the "altruistic" nature of the country. Sure it seems like we are helping Afghanistan, but that is not the real motive. The real one, as I said before, is revenge. There have been other instances of times (Vietnam, WW2, The Gulf "War") when it appears we are helping others, but are indeed just furthering our own agenda. If we really were wanting to help, we would start before getting attacked, and maybe even prevent attacks on us from even happening. Think about it, would September 11 would have happened if we started looking for Al Qaeda or the Taliban or Osama when they first started gaining power and commiting the atrocities they are indeed guilty of? Most likely no, but action is not the only way to fight. If the U$ were indeed smart, which it is not, it would have realized a long time ago that it is not popular in the middle east, or many other regions of this world, and leave them alone. History has taught us time and again that the middle east is going to have problems, that's just something that cannot be fixed. If problems haven't been solved for centuries, what makes people think a bigger U$ presence is going to fix it? If anything, U$ involvement in the area is just going to get people madder, tensions higher, and increased numbers of people supporting people like Osama. The smart thing would have been to realize all of this a long time ago, and leave. They don't want us there, and us being there isn't doing much of anything but getting people killed. I know that nothing will ever change, and the U$ will continue to keep troops in areas where they aren't welcome. That's just how dumb the people in charge are. These people (Al Qaeda, terrorists, Osama) are for real, as evidenced by September 11, and were known to be serious about their intentions as far back as the Ollie North trial. (in which he mentioned Osama by name and revealed his huge fear of him doing something to the U$, a fear so big that it led him to buy a large, expensive security system. He was questioned about all this by Al Gore, by the way, who scoffed at Ollie's fears) To sum all this up, the government did not know how to handle this then, do not know how to now, and will never know how to deal with the world stage.

[Dreadnaht1]

In response to History, while this is a war of 'revenge' it really can't be. For example, do we really know that Afghanistan/Taliban/Al-Queda/Laden did anything at all? Personally, I believe that none of this was caused by Afghanistan or it's members of terrorism. We're only attacking them and installing our regime (the N.A.) so we can take their oil and their people pretty much.

-Dread

[MJM]

I think you hit the nail on the head,dread.
It wasn't afghanistan or the taliban.
Personally I doubt it was even bin laden.

I think the US just wants a good spot to keep an eye on central asia. I read somewhere about the US planning to encircle china and north korea (might have been here?). Something about the missle shield being erected all around the 2 countries.

[Kez]

whoa whoa whoa

we cant support the taliban, fuck em all.
They were racists, sexists and homophobes, and yet we stick up for them, the new capitalist imperialist system is better than them fuck heads, especially for the people

taliban were anti-communists and anti-socialists
fuck em all

comrade kamo

[GuerillaTactics]

This so-called war on terrorism in Afghanistan was about nothing more than gaining a strategic geographical edge in central asia. The World Trade Center Incident opened the window of opportunity for such a move to be undertaken with little if any international resistance. The move would also ensure that in case of a U.S. conflict with one of the regions power players, the United States would have Afghanistans enormous oil reserves at it's disposal. The United States is looking to corner the P.R.C. and North Korea. That is the real issue at hand

(Edited by GuerillaTactics at 6:02 pm on Jan. 31, 2002)

[GuerillaTactics]

I can smell the rotten stench of Imperialism rearing it's ugly head

(Edited by GuerillaTactics at 6:13 pm on Jan. 31, 2002)

[revolutionary]

It the worse of two evils- the taiban an military based Islamic extremist dictatorship or an capitalist imperial superpower. I'd go for the capitalists every time.

A survey in U$A showed that over 50% (can't remember actual figure) would have bin laden shot on site with no trial. There is no evidence that he did anything, but they'd have him shot.

[Dreadnaht1]

65% of Americans, in a survey, want to go at war with Afghanistan until Bin Laden is captured no matter how much life is lost in the process.

So far 4,000 - 5,000 innocent Afghanistans (not Aghani's, contrary to the U$ name calling, Afghani is the name of Afghanistan's currency) have been killed by over 10,000 U$ bombs. 3,000 people were killed in the U$ during 9/11/01. 7,000 - 8,000 people have been killed by a single nation in less then 4 months in only two nations.

Doesn't take a genus to see what the U$ is doing yet so many people ignore these facts. Why? And now the U$A is using these numbers to exploit and terrorize people both in Afghanistan and in the Americas.

Is anyone else truly disgusted by the American people/government/allies/reactions besides myself?

-Dread

[I Will Deny You]

I hated the Taliban. It sucks to see America in not just an oil war but an oil war that's killing so many innocent people, but I'm not crying because the Taliban's gone. Better a capitalist imperialist system that lets the women leave their homes than a non-imperialist system responsible for so many atrocities.

And by the way:
Quote: from MJM on 4:49 am on Jan. 31, 2002
I read somewhere about the US planning to encircle china and north korea (might have been here?). Something about the missle shield being erected all around the 2 countries.
That's not how missile shields work.

[GuerrillaFMLN]

First things fisrt: Who did what?

Heres what we know. The Al-Queda network is headed by Bin Laden. It is a loosely organized group of terrorist cells that undertake action perhaps with the direction of a higher authority, or on their own. We also know that Bin Laden had a direct hand in funding the Taliban, a muslim fundamentalist oppressive regime.

did Osama fly the plane? No. Did he have a hand in planning it? Possibly. But the fact is that he is the organizations leader, and what the U.S. wants to do is capture the leader in hopes that it will cause the rest of the organization to crumble. In the process, we destroyed a government that the people of Afghanistan DID NOT WANT. now, im not saying that the way we did it is kosher, but if we look at the reality of the situation, we can all agree [or i hope so] that terrorism is bad.

Thinking that the U.S. is going to institute majore policy changes and leave the middle east is ludicrous. So we are left with the reality.

i agree that more proof is needed to acuse bin laden himself. but can we really deny that the actors that the U.S. has singled out do not have something to do with all of this?

Its all fucked up. The U.S. is a REACTIONARY government and as such it is doing what it normally does, react. I dont condone the killing of innocent citizens, which is what is happening in Afghanistan. But i dont think that the mentality of the war from the very beginning was to get a foot in the door of central Asia. I think that it was a war of revenge. And now that the U.S. has done most of what it set out to do, it is looking at other benefits. Its those "other benefits" that we should be scared of.

[the end of history]

Getting to what "I will deny you" said, yes, in fact the U$ is going to start dumping troops in SE asia, the Phillipenes, to be exact, under the guise of fighting a guerilla movement. In fact, to show how dumb the military is, they are not fighting as of yet, but will be training in the exact same region that the guerillas operate in. man, i can't wait for the next Vietnam ;)

[peaccenicked]

I have been monitoring events very closely since sept 11
My first thought apart from distress were "Reichstag.
The Nazis burned their own parliament and blamed it on the communists.'' When I found out how many died and then the pentagon went, it all seemed too unlikely. So I sat down and decided to do my own investigation using the internet as my investigative tool.
My mind was jumping all over the place, I looked at the evidence against bin laden it was all circumstantial. Lawyers said it would not stand up in court. The war is illegal under a UN charter. The Taliban asked for evidence and did not get it. All of a sudden there was a new world order doing deals with the US for a stake in the war against terrorism. I could n't get through to the palestine chronicle as microsoft were saying it was out of respect for American families. I started with Chomsky but he basically refferred to Robert Fisk. Fisk had met Bin Laden and did not think it was him. I think every decent person should honour this journalist's integrity.
He along with Pilger were among the few voices of reason in the UK press. Although the Mirror and Private eye were surprisingly anti war.
On the net I found Znet, antiwar.com and Common Dreams who talked the war without the usual dogma of the left ie they tackled it politically. I soon became dissatisfied with liberal oppinion and sought Arab oppinion and then,it came to me, nothing was adding up.
There must be some conspiracy. There are a few whistle blowers on line people who revealed iran gate and things like that. Ex cia agents were complaining about field work in the middle east. The CIA was wanting to become an aggressor rather than a defensive organisation. So I started collating all the sources on my site. Even theories about conspiracy theory.
I can not prove much but my hunch is that the CIA knew
and Mossad had planned something with the Saudi
nationalists. I think it had been planned for years and
and was done in the mutual interest of a few groups.
It was too precise a 'job'. There was too much complacency beforehand, investigators stopped the money trail which was linked to the CIA. The FBI have been told to back off on the Bin Laden family, even though other members are under suspicion. There are stories of arrested mossad agents.
In political terms was too good too be true for BUSH and I think he may have sanctified an operation which was merely to produce desired results, but did not want to know operational details. Years before a colnell Northwood proposed such a thing but that was to be blamed on Cuba but maybe the ex USSR got in the way.
At any rate more and more people are dropping fears of being labelled a conspiracy theory nut and following revelations on German TV are demanding a full inquiry.
the why of the war is not just oil but regional hegomony and expansion and a perptual state of domestic emergency. It is good for strike breaking.
"The tradition of the oppressed teaches us that the 'state of emergency' in which we live is not the exception but the rule. We must attain to a conception of history that is in keeping with this insight. Then we shall clearly realize that it is our task to bring about a real state of emergency, and this will improve our position in the struggle against Fascism. One reason why Fascism has a chance is that in the name of progress its opponents treat it as a historical norm. The current amazement that the things we are experiencing are 'still' possible in the twentieth century is not philosophical. This amazement is not the beginning of knowledge--unless it is the knowledge that the view of history which gives rise to it is untenable."

--Walter Benjamin, "Theses on the Philosophy of History," (Spring, 1940) trans. Harry Zohn.




(Edited by peaccenicked at 12:20 am on Feb. 2, 2002)

[MJM]

I will deny you.
The jist of it was that the missile shield that was supposed to go up and down the US coast may be in fact be formed around the perimiter of china-in russia, sth korea,taiwan,russia and india. these countries are now on side with the US and the creation of a base in this area ie,afghanistan. would be a good starting point and centre of operations.