Patriotism vs Nationalism

[New Tolerance]

In your opinion, is there a difference between patriotism and nationalism?

[Kurai Tsuki]

Patriotism refers to lovinig ones own country while nationalism is more about wanting a country's properties and means of production to be under the control of its own citizens. For example, Arab Nationalists are, "critical," of Israel and the US.

[perception]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 05:46 PM
Patriotism refers to lovinig ones own country while nationalism is more about wanting a country's properties and means of production to be under the control of its own citizens. For example, Arab Nationalists are, "critical," of Israel and the US.
no way. Nationalism is a group ideology, an ideology which puts those of your race or nation above all others. Patriotism is a watered down, individual expression of nationalism.

[Louis Pio]

From my point of view being danish and all. The american version of patriotism seems very much as any other form of nationalism. Ie narrow outlook and the belief that it's everybody elses fault that things are screwed up. Only thing that seem to be the difference is that racism aren't as big a part of US "patriotism"

[Nas]

there was point where Italy was divided into smallers states so the country Italy did not exist but Nationalism brought them back together to 1 whole country

[New Tolerance]

I guess what I'm asking is:

Does patriotism contradict socialism? (Since I heard that nationalism does)

[BuyOurEverything]

Does patriotism contradict socialism? (Since I heard that nationalism does)

Not neccessarily socialism (and nationalism doesn't either) but definately communism.

Oh, and there's not really a difference. Patriotism's just as bad.

[commie kg]

As workers, we owe allegiance only to our class. Not to artificial constructs such as the nation-state.

[Hiero]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 04:58 AM

Does patriotism contradict socialism? (Since I heard that nationalism does)

Not neccessarily socialism (and nationalism doesn't either) but definately communism.

Oh, and there's not really a difference. Patriotism's just as bad.
So you cant be patriotic towards the working class?

I think there is a difference between nationalism since it uses the word nation.

[Kez]

Originally posted by commie [email protected] 11 2004, 06:28 AM
As workers, we owe allegiance only to our class. Not to artificial constructs such as the nation-state.
Bang on.

Left nationalism is still nationalism, and contradicts the aims and ideals of socialism. As internationalists our sole alleigance must be to our class, not to any nation

[monkeydust]

This question has come up before, I can only give the answer I gave previously.

Patriotism and Nationalism are only different in terms of the usual context in which they are both used. It might be more 'appropriate' to call on a patriot, than a nationalist in ordinary conversation. Both terms invoke different images and have differing connotations.

Another difference is that Nationalism focuses more on the concept of a nation than a country. In 1930's Germany, Jews were part of the 'country', though not of the German 'nation'. Thus German nationalist sought to rid the 'country' of them (and others), who were not part of the 'nation'. They were perhaps more nationalistic than patriotic.

That said, in reality they equate to more or less the same. Especially in this day and age.

Patriotism implies a simple 'love of one's country', Nationalism tends to imply a feeling that one's country is somehow 'better' than others, and that this should be asserted.

Though one does not love one country as an isolated entity. A countries achievements are not normally considered notable for their intrinsic value, rather they are for their relation to other countries or nations.

In other words, one 'loves one's country' for what it has done 'better' than others. Winning a war, winning the World cup or reaching an advanced technological standard are all common reasons to be proud of one's country, though they would mean little if they did not involve competition against others.

In a sense 'loving one's country' invariably imlies a belief that ones country is better than others. Thus in reality, it's hard to be fiercely patriotic, without being strongly nationalistic.

Apologies for the poor explanation, I am still ill at the moment.

[perception]

A true communists' allegiance should be to the human race, not an artificial construct such as class. If your allegiance is only to the working class than you're a classist just like those bourgious bastards, there's nothing noble about it.

[Fidelbrand]

Well depicted , Left. I guess this should be more of less of an appropriate answer we could get.

[commie kg]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 08:29 AM
A true communists' allegiance should be to the human race, not an artificial construct such as class. If your allegiance is only to the working class than you're a classist just like those bourgious bastards, there's nothing noble about it.
Communism seeks to eliminate social classes. Marx said "The workers have no country," and he was absolutely right. We fight for the betterment of ourselves and our class. Sounds selfish you? Well, that's Marxism.

Since the proletariat is the overwhelming mass of people in most nations (I'm counting the so-called "middle class" of "cubicle warriors"), how is supporting your own class against a ruling elite being classist? Since it isn't possible to make everyone bourgeois, we do the logical thing: make the bourgeois (the minority class) into proletarians (or corpses, depending on their level of cooperation).

[Saint-Just]

De Gaulle said that he saw the difference between patriotism and nationalism as; patriotism is the love of one's country and nationalism is the feeling of superiority about one's nation and nationality.

This is an opinion on the nature of most nationalists. Its not quite true. Nationalism is the belief in the sovereignty of nations and in national boundaries. Many nationalists are national chauvanists.

[Edelweiss]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 06:29 PM
A true communists' allegiance should be to the human race, not an artificial construct such as class. If your allegiance is only to the working class than you're a classist just like those bourgious bastards, there's nothing noble about it.
Am I getting you right, are you implicating that as a "true communist" you have to be a patriot or even nationalist??? I'm sorry, but that is pretty ridiculous, and a twisting of Marxism like it couldn't be any worser.

See HERE (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=22194) for a serious debate on the topic.

[DaCuBaN]

other way round mate - to be a true communist you CANNOT be a nationalist - the idea of the nation is defunct under true communism. Patriotism is a lot more difficult though - bear in mind the word 'patron' is the source for it, so technically speaking telling people that one 'brand' of soap is better than another is being patriotic toward that (ahem) firm (hows that for a child of my environment - I couldn't even think of a decent example i'm so damned brainwashed :( :angry: )

It also gets a lot more complicated when you take into account the fact that we may not be alone - the ideals of communism being based around selfless ideals of the masses of HUMANS...

[LuZhiming]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 12:29 AM
no way. Nationalism is a group ideology, an ideology which puts those of your race or nation above all others. Patriotism is a watered down, individual expression of nationalism.
Actually, that's what we call ethnocentrism. Although most Nationalist movements end up being just like that.

[perception]

Originally posted by LuZhiming+Apr 17 2004, 07:11 PM--> (LuZhiming @ Apr 17 2004, 07:11 PM)
[email protected] 11 2004, 12:29 AM
no way. Nationalism is a group ideology, an ideology which puts those of your race or nation above all others. Patriotism is a watered down, individual expression of nationalism.
Actually, that's what we call ethnocentrism. Although most Nationalist movements end up being just like that. [/b]
thanks for the vocabulary lesson. I'm saying that the two terms are synonymous. There is no difference, and I urge you to lend me a counterexample.