How many of you are workers really?

[A Free Mind]

Am I right in thinking that you are mostly middle class office workers , Who own a car , a TV and live in one of the rich Western Nations?

ps. After I get few responses I will eleborate further

[elijahcraig]

I'm a student in the US. I don't own a car or a TV.

[Raisa]

<<<Am I right in thinking that you are mostly middle class office workers , Who own a car , a TV and live in one of the rich Western Nations?>>>

ps. After I get few responses I will eleborate further

I am a student. I need to get a job. I have no car, and I do not live in one of the ritch parts of my western nation.

[Eastside Revolt]

I work in a butcher shop, I am car-less, and yes I am from a secular western nation. What&#39;s the point?

[MysticArcher]

I&#39;m a college student, who owns no car or tv


I assume your elaboration is going to be a rant about how can we support communism when we&#39;re not poor working class people in third world countries

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

I work for the largest, most horrible, government running, community destroying, anti-union company in the world - Wal-Mart. I am a cashier who makes &#036;7.60/hour, and I just started a couple weeks ago at Sam&#39;s Club (a wholesale Wal-Mart store). I actually try and talk people out of buying as much as I can, and encourage them to instead get software off Kazaa, and other stuff on EBay. I would say, that thanks to me, I&#39;ve made Wal-Mart lose around &#036;1000 in sales in the past week. I have no choise but to work there really. It took me several weeks just to find that job. Don&#39;t mess with Wal-Mart though if you don&#39;t know what you are doing, they have corporate lawyers and practically run the government, and in a sence, they are above the law. If they want something, they almost always get it. One example of the bullshit they do is that if for some reason you have a workplace injury, you are not allowed, by contract, to see an ordinary doctor, but instead, they have a corporate doctor who will assess your injuries before you can get any sort of worker&#39;s comp. O, you sliced off your arm? Ok, well thats just a little cut that will heal up in no time&#33; When you are hired, you are shown a two hour long anti-union propaganda video that claims that because of unions, stores have to be closed, people lose jobs, and you just lose all your money in union dues. Workplace safety is unsatifactory. There are alot of rules though, they are just never enforced, and if something happens, it comes up as employee neglegance, and the worker, not the company gets the blame.

EDIT: Two cars, given to me by my grandparents, 2001 Camero and a 1995 Cavilier, selling them both (I think cars should be banned), and will soon be giving probably a &#036;10000 donation split between various groups like the CPUSA. My family owns two televisions, but I refuse to watch them, and I live in the United States.

[Severian]

I work in a frickin&#39; margarine plant in the USA. I&#39;m also a part-time student. &#39;Course I own a car, we got no public transport here y&#39;know. TV also.

I don&#39;t see what you&#39;re going to learn from this survey. You already know we have computers and internet access, not too many Congolese peasants do. Roughly 50% of people in the USA do, skewed toward higher class status.

[New Tolerance]

Hey, if you are not a low level worker, you can still be considered as worker. even a CEO can be considered a worker depending on the situation.

What&#39;s your point?

[Y2A]

They are rich middle class white boys. Check out the link on my sig.

[New Tolerance]

That reminds me.

We&#39;ve talked about this topic before, someone get the link to that old conversation.

[Y2A]

The link is on my sig.

[RedCeltic]

I&#39;m a 33, have worked since I was 14, and have been poor my whole life. I was in the US Navy for four years (1992 - 1996) and have worked as a plumber since 1996. I currently have no car and take classes at the university. I&#39;m totally Dependant on public transportation, and live in a sustainable leftist community.

[Rasta Sapian]

listen, you are a little *****, stop posting your negitive and facist propaganda, If I could see you I would through you to the ground you little fag&#33;

I am a worker, and if socialism rules, I would have benifits, communal living, more pussy than you wil ever get so fuck off&#33;

peace to all the commrads in the house

[Y2A]

Originally posted by Rasta [email protected] 10 2004, 03:57 AM
listen, you are a little *****, stop posting your negitive and facist propaganda, If I could see you I would through you to the ground you little fag&#33;
Incorrect.

[Rasta Sapian]

Correct&#33;

little faggit mother fucker, choke on my cock, *****

[Y2A]

Originally posted by Rasta [email protected] 10 2004, 04:04 AM
Correct&#33;

little faggit mother fucker, choke on my cock, *****
No queerball.

[RedCeltic]

I should also add:

On my dad&#39;s side: My great Grandfather was a boiler maker in Glasgow Scotland, my Grandfather was a immigrant custodian in a high school, and my grandmother was a cleaning woman, and cook. My dad is a retired telephone worker.

On my mother&#39;s side: my Great great grandfather was a carpenter, my great grandfather was a carpenter, my grandfather was a carpenter, my grandmother was a factory worker, my uncle was a railroad worker, my mother was a secritery, than later a home health aid, my aunt is a nurse, her husband is a carpenter, My cousins are all carpenters, except for one that teaches law at Columbia.

[RedCeltic]

Originally posted by Rasta [email protected] 9 2004, 11:04 PM
Correct&#33;

little faggit mother fucker, choke on my cock, *****
watch the homophobic language please.

[Y2A]

Originally posted by RedCeltic+Apr 10 2004, 04:17 AM--> (RedCeltic @ Apr 10 2004, 04:17 AM)
Rasta [email protected] 9 2004, 11:04 PM
Correct&#33;

little faggit mother fucker, choke on my cock, *****
watch the homophobic language please. [/b]
Indeed. RS is a homophobic bastard.

[EneME]

I&#39;m an immigrant coming from a country torn apart by US military back up so we had to flee because we were in grave danger. My mother worked in a sweatshop and only went to school til&#39; 6th grade. My father&#39;s degree is meaningless here, so he works labor. I grew up in housing (aka projects) and have never had healthcare in my life until I got to the university....I&#39;ve always worked since the age of 16. I&#39;m 22 and still don&#39;t own a car, but I do have a TV..never have had cable though...woo I&#39;m such a spoiled American&#33; ;)

[commie kg]

I&#39;m a college student. I stock shelves at a grocery store. My family lived in a pop-up tent trailer for a year (family of six, with two dogs).

I wouldn&#39;t even be able to go to college if it weren&#39;t for the state of Washington paying for my education.

[RedCeltic]

Originally posted by Y2A+Apr 9 2004, 11:23 PM--> (Y2A @ Apr 9 2004, 11:23 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 04:17 AM

Rasta [email protected] 9 2004, 11:04 PM
Correct&#33;

little faggit mother fucker, choke on my cock, *****
watch the homophobic language please.
Indeed. RS is a homophobic bastard. [/b]
"Queerball" wasn&#39;t much better buddy. Just cut out the slanging off you two.

[Louis Pio]

Im unemployed at the moment, which is crap when I have to pay rent etc :(
But I just applied for a job as a gravedigger (sic) so hopefully it will change.

[BOZG]

listen, you are a little *****, stop posting your negitive and facist propaganda, If I could see you I would through you to the ground you little fag&#33;

As I&#39;ve said before, what world do you live on?



As for me, I work 40 hours a week in the back of 40ft trucks. covered in dust, stacking boxes. Why do you ask? We do not choose our upbringing or the country we were born on, they are circumstances most we can&#39;t control at least to a certain age. As for moving to a "socialist" country which you&#39;re sure to allude to, why should I? I&#39;m an internationalist, I do not believe in some sort of "socialist blocs" through the world, I want a worldwide socialist revolution and I choose to live where I live to try and influence one.

[A Free Mind]

First of all I apoligise for my slow response .
I was asking because I was wondering if most of the people on this site were rich white kids (no offence ment). I wanted to know because on all the leftist sites on the internet i can find no real plans for the revival of communism and I have had a lingering feeling that many of you are complaining about issues that do not affect you while doing nothing to achieve what you all claim to want

[AC-Socialist]

Im a 16 year old student of zimbabwean heritage living in a flat in London with my mum and my sister. I have a TV but no car. Ohh and i was made &#39;redundant&#39; from my previos saturday job...

[MiniOswald]

why &#39;rich white kids&#39; surely &#39;rich black kids&#39; are just the same?

[The Feral Underclass]

I am a humanitarian volunteer who comes from a single parent working class family. I own no car, or TV. I own a back pack of clothes, revolutionary literature, books and some CD&#39;s which are in a box at my college. That&#39;s it. I dont even have an official home...

Regardless of all that, I think it is pretty pathetic that you can use this argument as some vindication that communism dosnt work. What&#39;s your point. All it proves is that rich people, or well of people have the luxury of time. Time to study and become conscious.

You really have no argument, because it is absolutly irrleveant and extremly sectarian to assume that the only people who can subscribe to revolutionary politics is the working class. You do not have to be poor or working class to want to change society.

Why dont you find a real argument instead of this sensational bullshit which only serves to prove how ignorant you really are.

[Fidel Castro]

I am still at school, and live on a council estate. I work part-time stacking shelves at a small supermarket for £3.79 an hour with no sickness pay should I need it.

My mum works as a cleaner and my dad is a security guard, I know for a fact that both struggle to pay bills. I would consider myself part of a proletarian family.

[Y2A]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 03:33 PM
why &#39;rich white kids&#39; surely &#39;rich black kids&#39; are just the same?
Indeed, I hate the entire middle/upper class that attempts to act like a worker. Sorry for any misconceptions.

[Robert Edward Lee]

Genghis2003

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/lifeevent/benefits/s...ry_sick_pay.asp (http://www.dwp.gov.uk/lifeevent/benefits/statutory_sick_pay.asp)

Don&#39;t know if you can qualify for it - but that&#39;ll tell you if the employer is breaking the law.

I&#39;m doing employment law as one of my degree modules next year, by the way. I&#39;ve been screwed around by my old part-time job (WHSmith) before I told them to shove it.


Same for you, AC-Socialist. What happened with the &#39;redundancy&#39;? If you can get legal aid (possible, but admittedly hard) you&#39;ll&#39; be able to get a solicitor to look into it for you for free. Bearing in mind that I&#39;m only in year 1 of a degree, I might be able to give you some form of advice though.

[The Feral Underclass]

REL: Of course you will know more than I on this, but is it not the case that people under the age of 18 recieve a minimum wage that low?

[che's long lost daughter]

I just graduated from college last week but I still have no job or applied for one because I still have to take and pass a licensure exam. I have never experienced working. I am planning to work in the U&#036; as a nurse in order for me to help my family. There are 17 people living in my house-- mother, father, siblings, nieces and nephews, in-laws-- and that is the number of people I have to help. I do not own a car and hell, I do not even know how to drive.

[Robert Edward Lee]

AT,

http://www.dti.gov.uk/er/nmw/

At the moment there isn&#39;t a minimum wage for people aged 16-18, but one will be introduced on October 1st 2004. (only £3 and hour though&#33;)

I&#39;m divided over what I think of this. It&#39;s incredibly low, but the majority of 16-18 year olds are supported by a parent or guardian. However, as Genghis2003 has shown, it is frequently the case that even two working parents will struggle to pay the bills and so younger members of the family cannot expect to receive pocket-money etc... Therefore it is only fair that younger people are allowed to work for a reasonable amount.

Overall, I don&#39;t think there should be different bands of minimum wage. A minimum is needed to protect individuals against rogue employers and a worker is a worker, age shouldn&#39;t really matter. The only times age is a problem is when younger people are not legally allowed to perform certain actions. In this situation they shouldnt be employed in that role at all&#33; I think the current rate of £4.50 for 22+ is reasonable and should extended to all.

So then,

Genghis is technically being paid £3.79 above the minimum wage for under 18s(&#33;) and will be be 79p up on on the minimum as of October.

[BOZG]

The minimun wage exemption for under 18s is disgraceful. As REL said, a worker is a worker regardless of age. They should be entitled to the same minimum wage as anyone else. In Ireland, it&#39;s interesting to note that a part-time worker in school is eligible for only 20 hours a week, but not entitled to a minimum wage while if they&#39;re on work experience (from school, it&#39;s legal for a boss to pay them nothing for working a 40 hour week.

[AC-Socialist]

Originally posted by Robert Edward [email protected] 10 2004, 05:00 PM

Same for you, AC-Socialist. What happened with the &#39;redundancy&#39;? If you can get legal aid (possible, but admittedly hard) you&#39;ll&#39; be able to get a solicitor to look into it for you for free. Bearing in mind that I&#39;m only in year 1 of a degree, I might be able to give you some form of advice though.
Thanks for the sentiments REL, however i dont think the law protects 16 year olds working on the grey market (cash-in-hand) work.

[lucid]

Wow this is a big surprise :rolleyes:

A bunch of low income losers that can&#39;t get good jobs so they blame everyone else but themselves.

I work for a huge IT company and make about three times the average income for the US. Because of this my wife goes to school and spends more time with the kids.

I also own a real estate investing company that has done quite well.

I own two cars and am thinking about gettings a third. I need a truck for hauling stuff around. We have six TV&#39;s in the house and I just recently spent &#036;2100 on a pure bread Shar-pei.

*hugs*

[Louis Pio]

Very intelligent <_<
It always surprises me how rich people can&#39;t even use their money in an intelligent way.

[Invader Zim]

Well, i&#39;m apparently the odd one out, in that I live in the country, my mum owns a car, have a TV, I go to a middle class suburban sixform do three a-levels excluding general studies and have ambitions to go to university.

I hope your not a fool an think that being a leftist and being born into a prosperous family are mutually exclusive.

[lucid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 10:30 PM
Very intelligent <_<
It always surprises me how rich people can&#39;t even use their money in an intelligent way.
First off, I am not rich, yet. I am working on it.

Second, how exactly am I using "my" money in an unintelligent way?

[ComradeRed]

I own a car after saving up &#036;150 dollars for a dozen of years, yep I bought an el camino for only &#036;150 but only if I could make it run :(. I am going to college in a few years, but I probably can&#39;t afford housing, so I will live in the forest (no joke, I wanna go to santa cruz, they have a beautiful forest). My family lives below the official poverty line in the U&#036;.

[Louis Pio]

Second, how exactly am I using "my" money in an unintelligent way?

well you said it yourself


We have six TV&#39;s in the house and I just recently spent &#036;2100 on a pure bread Shar-pei.


Btw you shouldn&#39;t expect to much of the IT sector. It seems nobody have learned from when the bubble burst and are doing the same thing again.
Stockbrockers really are a bunch of sheeps.

[the SovieT]

i am a student...



as a student i should receive all statual support possible..

yes, because i study today, to tomorrow work and pay my jah damned taxes to the fucking state..

in that way, i am studing so that i may serve the state..

wich makes me something like a pre-worker...






(all power to me&#33;)

[Robert Edward Lee]

AC-Socialist,

It will depend on what sort of &#39;work&#39; it is. I&#39;m not going to pry into what you did, but I&#39;ll say this: If, strictly speaking, its illegal work then no, you wont be protected (although human rights legislation may actually step in&#33;), however, legitimate cash-in-hand work is protected (i believe) to exactly the same amount as when pay goes straight into an account. I do admit however, that I don&#39;t know exactly.

[truthaddict11]

I just bought my first car, a 1992 Buick Century, now I am 1000 dollars in the hole, my past transportation was a red bicycle. i currently work in a resteruant I just came from working 3 years at a grocery store. I am not paying rent or bills now but for most of the past 2 years I was pretty much on my own. I had 2 televisons both of them gifts. My parents have worked in hospitality buisness(most times as waiters or waitresses) most of my life, so I would consider my self working class.

[lucid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 10:46 PM

Second, how exactly am I using "my" money in an unintelligent way?

well you said it yourself


We have six TV&#39;s in the house and I just recently spent &#036;2100 on a pure bread Shar-pei.


Btw you shouldn&#39;t expect to much of the IT sector. It seems nobody have learned from when the bubble burst and are doing the same thing again.
Stockbrockers really are a bunch of sheeps.
You not being able to afford these things doesn&#39;t make them unintelligent. Seems like a bunch of you commies are "not paying rent" "behind on bills" so maybe you shouldn&#39;t be telling others how to spend their money :D

I don&#39;t invest in IT stocks during the IT boom or after. It&#39;s much easier to make money with property.

[Louis Pio]

You not being able to afford these things doesn&#39;t make them unintelligent. Seems like a bunch of you commies are "not paying rent" "behind on bills" so maybe you shouldn&#39;t be telling others how to spend their money

I do pay rent jerk. I find it quite amusing you have this need for bragging about your property. Of course 6 tv&#39;s are unintelligent. And using 2100&#036; on a inbreed dog is even more stupid. While you brag about your property, capitalism is showing it&#39;s inability to provide for the people of the world.
But go ahead and think people become marxist because they envy you, if just half of all rightwingers are as stupid the task of transforming society will be more easy than I thought. By being arrogant towards havenots you are just paving the way for growing hostility towards you and your kind.

[Louis Pio]

I don&#39;t invest in IT stocks during the IT boom or after. It&#39;s much easier to make money with property.

Yes of course any form of recession will never affect you <_< Just as any soldier going to Iraq is not gonna get killed. Everything is pointing in the direction of a stabble economy and peace and prosperity or what? :rolleyes:

[EneME]

Originally posted by lucid+Apr 10 2004, 11:59 PM--> (lucid &#064; Apr 10 2004, 11:59 PM)
[email protected] 10 2004, 10:46 PM

Second, how exactly am I using "my" money in an unintelligent way?

well you said it yourself


We have six TV&#39;s in the house and I just recently spent &#036;2100 on a pure bread Shar-pei.


Btw you shouldn&#39;t expect to much of the IT sector. It seems nobody have learned from when the bubble burst and are doing the same thing again.
Stockbrockers really are a bunch of sheeps.
You not being able to afford these things doesn&#39;t make them unintelligent. Seems like a bunch of you commies are "not paying rent" "behind on bills" so maybe you shouldn&#39;t be telling others how to spend their money :D

I don&#39;t invest in IT stocks during the IT boom or after. It&#39;s much easier to make money with property. [/b]
People are not paying rent or behind on bills because there is no cash to fuckin pay it. You think that we are jealous because you may have cash, but I&#39;m sorry, I wouldn&#39;t be proud of being ignorant and picking up after 2,000 dollar worth dog shit. You look down on the lower proletariat class when in actuality we all look down on you and its pathetic that someone would be so proud of having so much materialistically that means nothing when real life hits you in the face. Death, sickness, unemployment....having 6 TV&#39;s will do nothing for you there. Having no compassion for others is cruel, and all it does is reinforce my leftist sentiments and my beliefs about capitalists.

[lucid]

You guys are begging for the abuse.

[EneME]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 02:55 AM
You guys are begging for the abuse.
:lol: Nice retort.... *sarcasm monotone* please, you are making me question all my ideals with that incredible response...

[lucid]

Originally posted by EneME+Apr 11 2004, 03:15 AM--> (EneME @ Apr 11 2004, 03:15 AM)
[email protected] 11 2004, 02:55 AM
You guys are begging for the abuse.
:lol: Nice retort.... *sarcasm monotone* please, you are making me question all my ideals with that incredible response... [/b]
I don&#39;t want you to change your ideals. People like you make me money. I am hear for the comedy factor.

[EneME]

Originally posted by lucid+Apr 11 2004, 03:33 AM--> (lucid @ Apr 11 2004, 03:33 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 03:15 AM

[email protected] 11 2004, 02:55 AM
You guys are begging for the abuse.
:lol: Nice retort.... *sarcasm monotone* please, you are making me question all my ideals with that incredible response...
I don&#39;t want you to change your ideals. People like you make me money. I am hear for the comedy factor. [/b]
Well, of course...thats why you&#39;re a capitalist...you make money off the poor. :D

[lucid]

Originally posted by EneME+Apr 11 2004, 03:38 AM--> (EneME @ Apr 11 2004, 03:38 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 03:33 AM

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 03:15 AM

[email protected] 11 2004, 02:55 AM
You guys are begging for the abuse.
:lol: Nice retort.... *sarcasm monotone* please, you are making me question all my ideals with that incredible response...
I don&#39;t want you to change your ideals. People like you make me money. I am hear for the comedy factor.
Well, of course...thats why you&#39;re a capitalist...you make money off the poor. :D [/b]
Negative, I actually give money to the poor. I make money off of the lazy, unmotivated, someone needs to take care of me type of people. Like you.

[peaccenicked]

My great Grandfather was a boiler maker in Glasgow Scotland

RC one of my great friends from the old days when there were still many with illusions about the progressive nature of the USSR , was both a boilermaker and
from the east end of Glasgow. We worked together on the local paper. I learned a great deal from him about world literature and basically human values. We had many many pints of guiness together. You brought some very pleasant memories back to me.
One of the things he told me was that outside the capitalist class, he had really very little problems with anybody and even some of them were nicer than some of the Lumpen proles.
In the end it is your class viewpoint that counts.
There questions that come to the fore when questioining someones economic status.
One is who s business is it. Another how do woman and disabled people tied to domestic labour or domestic hostage feel about it. How do prisoners feel about it truant children, homeless people. Musicians,poets,............and dare I say it Psychiatrists etc
Do they really work or are they declasse and beyond human reason.
When you really think about it the question is irrelevant.
I am work in social care...maybe you guessed.

[RedCeltic]

peaccenicked

Our worlds seem to converge in some places it seems. :)

I know very little about my great grandfather other than that he was a boiler maker who immegrated to Boston Mass. at one point (where my Grandfather was born) but didn&#39;t like America for some reason and went back to Glasgow, Scotland.

My grandfather, who was a Marxist, told me that he owed much of his political views to his father, who had run guns to Ireland at one point, and had abandoned his family and went off to Ireland during the rebellion. My grandfather, probobly would never have been able to get into the US if it wasn&#39;t for the fact that he was born in Boston in 1906. He had spent time in prison for "anti-government activities" which I imagine had something to do with him being Irish Catholic growing up in Glasgow.

I still have much family over there today, and in fact my parents are there this moment visiting family.

[peaccenicked]

If you get over yourself, I know a a good few celtic pubs, but you will have to train me in soberity, christ, you have no chance. It would also be a good idea to learn the Lingo. I hear that they subtitle RC Nesbitt {a comedy set in Glasgow} in the states or perhaps you have a version of ceefax, subitles for the deaf. :rolleyes:

[A Free Mind]

Wow so much feeling pehaps its time i explained my self further I was wanting to know if many of you were workers in the way that communist visonarys like Marx , Lenin ect talked and wrote about and in a way i was right most of you are not workers in the sense that they disscused . Whitch just proves that Times have Changed

And this is my point mabie it is time to alow the idea of communism to grow and change for the times so that it can pehaps find a form that really will create a better world

All I ask is that you think about it.

[EneME]

Originally posted by lucid+Apr 11 2004, 03:43 AM--> (lucid @ Apr 11 2004, 03:43 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 03:38 AM

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 03:33 AM

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 03:15 AM

[email protected] 11 2004, 02:55 AM
You guys are begging for the abuse.
:lol: Nice retort.... *sarcasm monotone* please, you are making me question all my ideals with that incredible response...
I don&#39;t want you to change your ideals. People like you make me money. I am hear for the comedy factor.
Well, of course...thats why you&#39;re a capitalist...you make money off the poor. :D
Negative, I actually give money to the poor. I make money off of the lazy, unmotivated, someone needs to take care of me type of people. Like you. [/b]
Yeah, you just freely give it out? Of course you must make profit from it...

Yeah...us immigrants are so lazy and unmotivated...damn us for picking your fuckin fruits and veggies for endless hours under the burning sun for less than minimum wage.

You have no idea who I am, so you have absolutely nothing backing up your claim about what kind of person you think I am. My family, like most immigrant Latino families, are really really hard working whether it be going to the University (as I do) or doing manual labor (as my parents do).

I&#39;d love to see you walk a mile in our shoes or go pick your own fucking food, we&#39;ll see who is unmotivated&#33;

[Urban Rubble]

I didn&#39;t read any of this thread, so this is probably irrelevant by now. I don&#39;t know exactly what constitutes a "worker" in your opinion, but I work as an electrician.

[redstar2000]

I did read the whole thread...and found it very interesting. With one or two exceptions, I think the respondents are clearly working class in exactly the sense that Marx used the word: people who must sell their labor power in order to survive from one day to the next.

(Oh yeah, me. Retired office flunky, no car, no dummyvision set.)

Lucid&#39;s middle-class boasting was also revealing, I thought. Having nothing useful or even interesting to do with his money, he spends it on display. "Look at what a fine specimen of humanity I am", he proclaims, "Look at my possessions&#33; Clearly I am a man of substance."

I&#39;ve seen pond scum with more depth.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[Raisa]

<<Wow this is a big surprise

A bunch of low income losers that can&#39;t get good jobs so they blame everyone else but themselves.>>

How are we going to get a good job when we are mostly in the process of going to college so we can do something for the world. we dont have big educations and a crap yet....and if we do get "good" jobs...because of people like you we probably wont get crap for it&#33;

man......get out of Raisa&#39;s sight..... i spit at you&#33;

[Hitman47]

Currently I&#39;m not working. I&#39;m a junior in high school, my parents (mom, and 2aunts) have an ice cream business. I help them out when they arrive home.

I&#39;m looking forward to going to college. Don&#39;t know where yet, probably UC Santa Cruz. I was thinking of Northwestern University in Illinois, but looking at my SAT score it seems like im not getting. :lol:

oh well. :P

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

<<Wow this is a big surprise

A bunch of low income losers that can&#39;t get good jobs so they blame everyone else but themselves.>>

How are we going to get a good job when we are mostly in the process of going to college so we can do something for the world. we dont have big educations and a crap yet....and if we do get "good" jobs...because of people like you we probably wont get crap for it&#33;

man......get out of Raisa&#39;s sight..... i spit at you&#33;

Look who things hes the king.


I did read the whole thread...and found it very interesting. With one or two exceptions, I think the respondents are clearly working class in exactly the sense that Marx used the word: people who must sell their labor power in order to survive from one day to the next.

What difference does it make weather you are rich or not? (Though such wastefulness as Lucid&#39;s should be a crime&#33;) So long as someone sees the inherent flaws within the capitalist system, and wishes to replace it with a socialist/communist one, then regardless of their present social status, I would consider them a comrade. Even if someone hits it big on the stock market or starts up a successful businuss, I would not hold that against them so long as they were willing to help out their fellow comrades in need. I am going to college for 7 years and getting my PhD, and I should be pretty successful. I might even invest or start a businuss. I have no intention of remaining a slave on the basis of conviction. There is no use in not doing so, if I don&#39;t, someone else will. I live in a capitalist society, and I have no choise but to play by their own rules, so why not try and beat them at their own game? Perhaps I will leave one day when my Spanish gets good and I figure out how to find permanent living arrangements in Cuba, but until then, I have every intention of making the best out of my situation.

P.S. Who ever is still up for that trip to Cuba that can get to the Tampa Bay area, I am going to buy a small, used motor boat, that should be able to make the journey to Cuba, and I will take whoever wants to go for the summer, free of charge (so many as can fit on a small motor boat). I expect you to contribute as much as possible to ease the financial burden, but since fortune has smiled on me, and I have a fairly high paying job (for a student with no expenses, and 2 cars to sell), I will take anyone who wants to go for free, food and everything, (aren&#39;t sure about the room accomodations though, a hotel room is far too expensive to spend an entire summer in&#33;). If you are interested in going shoot me a PM.

[elhumano]

I own a car, a tv, shit i own a tv in my car. Oh and im a college student. Sorry, lets see I used the system to get a job, and to help me get an education. Im for the equality of people. Sorry if my hard work got me more then others. But what one puts into life is what one gets out.

[lucid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 12:40 AM
I did read the whole thread...and found it very interesting. With one or two exceptions, I think the respondents are clearly working class in exactly the sense that Marx used the word: people who must sell their labor power in order to survive from one day to the next.

(Oh yeah, me. Retired office flunky, no car, no dummyvision set.)

Lucid&#39;s middle-class boasting was also revealing, I thought. Having nothing useful or even interesting to do with his money, he spends it on display. "Look at what a fine specimen of humanity I am", he proclaims, "Look at my possessions&#33; Clearly I am a man of substance."

I&#39;ve seen pond scum with more depth.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas
Nothing but a compliment coming from you.

Thats the best part of capitalism. I can spend MY money the way I want to.

My shar-pei is worth every penny :D And she has more sense than a lot of you do.

http://lucid.liquidroot.org/shar-pei-front.jpg

[RevolucioN NoW]

Lucid, i congratulate you on purchasing what amounts to one of the ugliest dog i have ever seen... great way to blow &#036;2000 mate

i am currently a high school student who works for pizza hut earning &#036;2 less than the minimum wage, i own a TV (Gift) and a computer, however no car.

[lucid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 02:40 AM
P.S. Who ever is still up for that trip to Cuba that can get to the Tampa Bay area, I am going to buy a small, used motor boat, that should be able to make the journey to Cuba, and I will take whoever wants to go for the summer, free of charge (so many as can fit on a small motor boat). I expect you to contribute as much as possible to ease the financial burden, but since fortune has smiled on me, and I have a fairly high paying job (for a student with no expenses, and 2 cars to sell), I will take anyone who wants to go for free, food and everything, (aren&#39;t sure about the room accomodations though, a hotel room is far too expensive to spend an entire summer in&#33;). If you are interested in going shoot me a PM.
How much boating experience do you have?

[lucid]

Originally posted by RevolucioN [email protected] 12 2004, 04:02 AM
Lucid, i congratulate you on purchasing what amounts to one of the ugliest dog i have ever seen... great way to blow &#036;2000 mate

i am currently a high school student who works for pizza hut earning &#036;2 less than the minimum wage, i own a TV (Gift) and a computer, however no car.
To each his own. I like the bread and was more than willing to pay the price. Like I said, thats the great thing about capitalism. I earn it, I spend it.

I worked for a pizza joint in high school also. Actually I started working at a McDonalds when I was 14. In the U&#036; it is illegal to pay under minimum wage. I bought my first computer, TV, and car myself. I guess the difference between you and me is that I see opportunity while you just focus on all the negatives. What a great way to spend your life.

[RevolucioN NoW]

To each his own. I like the bread and was more than willing to pay the price. Like I said, thats the great thing about capitalism. I earn it, I spend it.

I worked for a pizza joint in high school also. Actually I started working at a McDonalds when I was 14. In the U&#036; it is illegal to pay under minimum wage. I bought my first computer, TV, and car myself. I guess the difference between you and me is that I see opportunity while you just focus on all the negatives. What a great way to spend your life.

I&#39;ve been working since i as 14 too, in a video store, then a subway until my current job.

The minimum wage in Australia for a worker such as myself is &#036;9.70 i think, however through a compliant union and a lack of staff participation in that union the leadership is able to screw us over every year.

What sort of opportunites do i have? i work a shitty job and save 80% of my paycheck, however i need to pay for university next year, a car eventually, a house, yep i see oportunities all around me, the opportunity to be exploited&#33;

[RedCeltic]

What difference does it make weather you are rich or not? (Though such wastefulness as Lucid&#39;s should be a crime&#33;) So long as someone sees the inherent flaws within the capitalist system, and wishes to replace it with a socialist/communist one, then regardless of their present social status, I would consider them a comrade.

In fact, what our pro-capitalist friends here do not seem to realize is the background of many communist/socialist and pre-Marxist revolutionaries.

Ernesto Che Guevara (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/COLDguevara.htm) himself was a doctor before he became a revolutionary.Fidel Castro (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/COLDcastroF.htm) was a lawyer.

Even long before Karl Marx was even born there had been men (and women) of wealth who had seen the flaws in capitalism.

Robert Owen (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/IRowen.htm) Was a Welsh born industrialist in the 18th centery. He was the founder of two communiterian experements.. a "worker friendly factory" called New Lamark, and in the United States he started a community called "New Harmony" which was continued by his son Robert Dale Owen (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USASowen.htm)

This experement also inspired a wealthy woman from Dundee Scotland Fanny Wright (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/REwright.htm)

That&#39;s just a small sample of people who were very much part of the wealthy class, and very much so... some of the most earliest socialists.

[peaccenicked]

I think that the class question should not be reduced to mere economic roles.
Thats why the terms &#39;socialism and &#39;communism&#39; are immediately attractive. They suggest the social question. No human being should be reduced to a mere economic status. That is a form of poverty in itself. Even the rich are poor in this sense.
Capitalism produces waste and not merely environmental but human waste, unemployment, under employment. There all forms of asbstract labour that are only money making activities, mostly in finance. There is tons of waste of all kinds in the arms industry.
There is perhaps this is the most subjective but there is much waste in the culture industry. Most TV is almost unwatchable. Most radio is switchoffable. The theatre
is becoming less dramatic and more arty. Music at least is something that is more easy to pick and choose from as are books.
The more joyless the world becomes the less one can find a social place in it. Sometimes I think if it was nt for my enthusiasm for talking crap about football, nobody would listen to me.
It is here that economic status gives more relative freedom to the rich. Yet the joys of a bit or good bit more than financial security tend to be more individual than social.
The biggest joy I get is watching the war in Iraq unfold only because it is like seeing a big bully slowly getting cuffed.
I take a big satisfaction out of that.
The other side is the creative side, thats is the only place one can measure oneself against ones past self and have a record of self improvement that has any social meaning beyond friendships and political squabbling. Giving
self value to ones life is more important than any economic status, work is mostly frustrating because of the glaring powerlessness in snatching crumbs from the system.
The system is utterly lop-sided in favour of running the poorest people into the ground, villifying the homeless and &#39;illegal&#39; immigrants and anyone who is outspoken.
The self indulgence of wallowing in an economic status is just simply inhuman.

Who is really working? Absolutely no-one in a dysfunctional society.
Who is employed is a more accurate way of framing the question.

[Fidel Castro]

Wow this is a big surprise

A bunch of low income losers that can&#39;t get good jobs so they blame everyone else but themselves.

Ok, take away those you consider losers, the cleaners, security guards, factory workers, manual labourers, sewerage workers, pest control workers, plumbers, public transport workers, nurses, bin-men, street sweapers, road workers, supermarket workers, low-income office staff, firefighters and part-time labourers, who all earn low-wages in this country and watch society crumble.

My mother would be classed by you as a loser, but she goes out there and cleans other peoples toilets in order to survive and provide for her family and I am proud of her for it. :angry:

The real losers are the people who believe that their wage packet is a symbol of their value as human beings.

[Al Creed]

My name is Elmer J. Fudd. I own a mansion and a yacht.

My name is Elmer J. Fudd. I own a mansion and a yacht.

My name is Elmer J. Fudd. I own a mansion and a yacht.

...Yes, I own a TV, and a computer, HOWEVER, most, if not all of my stuff, came to me via gifts.

[redstar2000]

Sorry if my hard work got me more then others. But what one puts into life is what one gets out.

Typical capitalist bullshit&#33;

It&#39;s called "taking credit for my wins" and "blaming others for their losses".

When I was burned out of my apartment house last week, was it because I "didn&#39;t put enough into life"? Or was it the ancient wiring in the attic that the landlords never bothered to upgrade?

Guess.

The universal casino that is capitalism produces, as a by-product, an insufferable smugness among the winners. I can&#39;t wait to see how smug they will be when they find their asses in front of a revolutionary firing squad.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[lucid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 03:34 PM

Sorry if my hard work got me more then others. But what one puts into life is what one gets out.

Typical capitalist bullshit&#33;

It&#39;s called "taking credit for my wins" and "blaming others for their losses".

When I was burned out of my apartment house last week, was it because I "didn&#39;t put enough into life"? Or was it the ancient wiring in the attic that the landlords never bothered to upgrade?

Guess.

The universal casino that is capitalism produces, as a by-product, an insufferable smugness among the winners. I can&#39;t wait to see how smug they will be when they find their asses in front of a revolutionary firing squad.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas
You where smart enough to have rental insurance?

[lucid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 03:19 PM

Wow this is a big surprise

A bunch of low income losers that can&#39;t get good jobs so they blame everyone else but themselves.

Ok, take away those you consider losers, the cleaners, security guards, factory workers, manual labourers, sewerage workers, pest control workers, plumbers, public transport workers, nurses, bin-men, street sweapers, road workers, supermarket workers, low-income office staff, firefighters and part-time labourers, who all earn low-wages in this country and watch society crumble.

My mother would be classed by you as a loser, but she goes out there and cleans other peoples toilets in order to survive and provide for her family and I am proud of her for it. :angry:

The real losers are the people who believe that their wage packet is a symbol of their value as human beings.
I was a fast food worker making minimum wage. I have worked as a taxi driver, pizza delivery guy, call center, and other low income jobs. Most people have to do this at one point in there life. If your mother decides to make a career out of cleaning toilets then thats her choice. There is nothing wrong with it but you will never get rich. Low wage jobs can be stepping stones for motivated people or careers for people that are ok with the standard of living it provides. It all comes down to personal choice.

[che's long lost daughter]

Well Lucid, I hope that you could bring with you your 6 TVs, your almost 3 cars and your ugly expensive dog when inadequate masses of protoplasms (which are very much like you by the way) are feeding on you 6 ft below the ground.

[lucid]

Originally posted by che&#39;s long lost [email protected] 12 2004, 05:04 PM
Well Lucid, I hope that you could bring with you your 6 TVs, your almost 3 cars and your ugly expensive dog when inadequate masses of protoplasms (which are very much like you by the way) are feeding on you 6 ft below the ground.
I will be leaving them to my kids so that they can enjoy them. Thanks for your concern though&#33;

[Xvall]

They are rich middle class white boys.

How the hell can we be &#39;rich middle class&#39;?

As far as this thread goes, it&#39;s imbicelic. It has been tried before. None of us are &#39;rich&#39;, some of us live with middle class families, but we have no authority over that. It&#39;s just the way we were born. This is like me complaining that cubans citizens who support capitalism are &#39;phony&#39; because they don&#39;t really live in a capitalist nation.

Grow up.

[Xvall]

Wow this is a big surprise. A bunch of low income losers that can&#39;t get good jobs so they blame everyone else but themselves

What fucking alternative are you giving us, Einstein? If we say that we are wealthy, or middle class, our opinions do not matter because of backgrounds do not blend in sufficiently with the ideological beliefs that we endorse. If we say that we are lower class, or poor, our opinions do not matter because we are jealous. I thought pointless one lined topics like these were done away with when we started introducing F.A.Qs. Apparently I was mistaken.

[Raisa]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 08:41 AM
I think that the class question should not be reduced to mere economic roles.
Thats why the terms &#39;socialism and &#39;communism&#39; are immediately attractive. They suggest the social question. No human being should be reduced to a mere economic status. That is a form of poverty in itself. Even the rich are poor in this sense.

word. I dont think it should matter about your familys money if youre a leftist.
You cant pick your familys income.
What is important is that you are thinking on your own and not through your money, and that is very appluadable bacause alot of people dont think about all these things so much, all of this struggle.
Its not fair to scrutinze people who are trying to do good. you should be proud of them.

[lucid]

Originally posted by Drake [email protected] 12 2004, 07:18 PM

Wow this is a big surprise. A bunch of low income losers that can&#39;t get good jobs so they blame everyone else but themselves

What fucking alternative are you giving us, Einstein? If we say that we are wealthy, or middle class, our opinions do not matter because of backgrounds do not blend in sufficiently with the ideological beliefs that we endorse. If we say that we are lower class, or poor, our opinions do not matter because we are jealous. I thought pointless one lined topics like these were done away with when we started introducing F.A.Qs. Apparently I was mistaken.
So your admitting that you blame everyone else for your problems?

This is a second line so that I don&#39;t violate the one line rule.

[lucid]

Originally posted by Drake [email protected] 12 2004, 07:16 PM

They are rich middle class white boys.

How the hell can we be &#39;rich middle class&#39;?

As far as this thread goes, it&#39;s imbicelic. It has been tried before. None of us are &#39;rich&#39;, some of us live with middle class families, but we have no authority over that. It&#39;s just the way we were born. This is like me complaining that cubans citizens who support capitalism are &#39;phony&#39; because they don&#39;t really live in a capitalist nation.

Grow up.
You don&#39;t have the authority to chose the class you are born into but you do have the authority to improve the way you live. That is if you live in a free society and don&#39;t spend your time *****ing about people that have more than you.

[Rasta Sapian]

Originally posted by lucid+Apr 12 2004, 04:10 AM--> (lucid @ Apr 12 2004, 04:10 AM)
RevolucioN [email protected] 12 2004, 04:02 AM
Lucid, i congratulate you on purchasing what amounts to one of the ugliest dog i have ever seen... great way to blow &#036;2000 mate

i am currently a high school student who works for pizza hut earning &#036;2 less than the minimum wage, i own a TV (Gift) and a computer, however no car.
To each his own. I like the bread and was more than willing to pay the price. Like I said, thats the great thing about capitalism. I earn it, I spend it.

I worked for a pizza joint in high school also. Actually I started working at a McDonalds when I was 14. In the U&#036; it is illegal to pay under minimum wage. I bought my first computer, TV, and car myself. I guess the difference between you and me is that I see opportunity while you just focus on all the negatives. What a great way to spend your life. [/b]
you have totally inspired me :)

I no longer dream of a world with no classes and equality for the masses&#33;

All I desire is money&#036;&#036;&#036;&#036;&#036;&#036;&#036;&#036;, and I will step on anybody to get there&#33;
my vanity is glorious :D I can feel my lust getting stonger&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;



just kidding, I think you are a loser because of ideology and your laim dog&#33; :lol:

[lucid]

Originally posted by Rasta [email protected] 12 2004, 08:09 PM
I no longer dream of a world with no classes and equality for the masses&#33;

All I desire is money&#036;&#036;&#036;&#036;&#036;&#036;&#036;&#036;, and I will step on anybody to get there&#33;
my vanity is glorious :D I can feel my lust getting stonger&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;



just kidding, I think you are a loser because of ideology and your laim dog&#33; :lol:
A world with no classess and equality for all is nothing but a dream. It may have something to do with those funny looking cigs you smoke.

I love how you think that all capitalists lust for money. We don&#39;t, we like the security that it brings. We are logical enough to know that in this world you have to make your own security. You can never rely on someone else for it. This is a reality that seems hard for you to understand. Again, maybe its those funny looking cigs your smoking.

Call me whatever you want. I&#39;ll still be able to feed and shelter my family.

[truthaddict11]

Originally posted by lucid+Apr 11 2004, 10:04 PM--> (lucid &#064; Apr 11 2004, 10:04 PM)
[email protected] 12 2004, 02:40 AM
P.S. Who ever is still up for that trip to Cuba that can get to the Tampa Bay area, I am going to buy a small, used motor boat, that should be able to make the journey to Cuba, and I will take whoever wants to go for the summer, free of charge (so many as can fit on a small motor boat). I expect you to contribute as much as possible to ease the financial burden, but since fortune has smiled on me, and I have a fairly high paying job (for a student with no expenses, and 2 cars to sell), I will take anyone who wants to go for free, food and everything, (aren&#39;t sure about the room accomodations though, a hotel room is far too expensive to spend an entire summer in&#33;). If you are interested in going shoot me a PM.
How much boating experience do you have? [/b]
seriously, do you really plan to buy a motorboat and succesfully take it to cuba? you were complaining earlier about not having money for college why not use that 10 thousand to help pay for tuition. You can always travel to Cuba later in life. GlobalExchange.org offers great traveling packages to Cuba. Going on a motor boat to Cuba seems pretty dangerous hopefully you bring enough clean water and hope you dont get shot at.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Originally posted by lucid+Apr 12 2004, 12:04 AM--> (lucid &#064; Apr 12 2004, 12:04 AM)
[email protected] 12 2004, 02:40 AM
P.S. Who ever is still up for that trip to Cuba that can get to the Tampa Bay area, I am going to buy a small, used motor boat, that should be able to make the journey to Cuba, and I will take whoever wants to go for the summer, free of charge (so many as can fit on a small motor boat). I expect you to contribute as much as possible to ease the financial burden, but since fortune has smiled on me, and I have a fairly high paying job (for a student with no expenses, and 2 cars to sell), I will take anyone who wants to go for free, food and everything, (aren&#39;t sure about the room accomodations though, a hotel room is far too expensive to spend an entire summer in&#33;). If you are interested in going shoot me a PM.
How much boating experience do you have? [/b]
Well, I used to go on my granddad&#39;s boat all the time, but this would be my first major international trip. I&#39;ve only went a couple miles off coast before. It&#39;s still only 90 miles though, and with a decent motorboat, should take maybe 3-4 hours. Its a good distance, but not exactly the trans-atlantic. BTW, you can&#39;t go. I plan on getting a GPS system, so just in case something happens, I won&#39;t be lost. I intend on being very well prepared before I leave.

1. A cappie has no businuss in Cuba. Why would you want to go anyways aside from the prospect of getting a free ride? You should not come unless you are in general agreement with the Cuban government. You would hate it there anyways. The trip would be at least a month long, if not the whole summer, and if we could get permanent arrangements there that I liked better then coming home and going to college here, who knows? I might not even bother coming back&#33; We are not going as tourists saying at the Hotel National de Cuba, I intend on renting a small place for a month, if that is possible, and spending my time enjoying the simple pleasures of everyday life that Havana has to offer. Visits to clubs, walks on beaches, doing volunteer work, meeting the locals, that kind of stuff.

2. You, being capitalist, care only for yourself and don&#39;t care about us comrades, or for society as a whole. You do not, and would not, help us if you had that chance, so why should I help you? Your &#036;2000 spent on that ugly mutt could have made this trip a lot better, but your interests, and your mutt are more important then other people.

EDIT: I have a 75% college tuition, and loans to pay off the rest. I do not intend on spending ALL my money on this trip, just &#036;2500-&#036;3500 for a used motorboat and supplies. This is my senior vacation before college, like a graduation present for myself. :D If I own a boat, I can go whenever I want. A trip to Cuba isn&#39;t exactly an epic journey by motorboat from here, spending your weekends there is feasable. As for getting shot at, I think that should be a concern, Cuba is a very safe place.

[lucid]

Dude, I don&#39;t want to goto Cuba. Sounds a little far fetched to me. Your motor conks out half way there and the currents coulld send you on a several thousand mile trip. Take extra water :rolleyes:

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 09:56 PM
Dude, I don&#39;t want to goto Cuba. Sounds a little far fetched to me. Your motor conks out half way there and the currents coulld send you on a several thousand mile trip. Take extra water :rolleyes:
Hey, no matter what you do, things can go wrong. I intend to take every step I can to prevent such a situation, like a motor tune-up, and having an emergancy radio to call for help, and life vests. Like all things in life, things can go wrong. Planes can crash, cars can wreck, and boats can sink. We do what we can to prevent things from going wrong, but certain risks are unavoidable. Whats so far fetched about a simple 90 mile trip?

[perception]

Originally posted by MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr+Apr 12 2004, 10:12 PM--> (MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr @ Apr 12 2004, 10:12 PM)
[email protected] 12 2004, 09:56 PM
Dude, I don&#39;t want to goto Cuba. Sounds a little far fetched to me. Your motor conks out half way there and the currents coulld send you on a several thousand mile trip. Take extra water :rolleyes:
Hey, no matter what you do, things can go wrong. I intend to take every step I can to prevent such a situation, like a motor tune-up, and having an emergancy radio to call for help, and life vests. Like all things in life, things can go wrong. Planes can crash, cars can wreck, and boats can sink. We do what we can to prevent things from going wrong, but certain risks are unavoidable. Whats so far fetched about a simple 90 mile trip? [/b]
If you&#39;re serious about this shit, you&#39;d better be careful homes. 1) you need to obtain a visa before arriving in Cuba, or they won&#39;t let you in. You&#39;d better have a working radio too so they don&#39;t shoot on you when you illegally enter Cuban waters too. 2) The Bush Administration has been cracking down on illegal travel to Cuba, especially individuals sailing to Cuba in private vessels. If you leave a port in the Keys and come back a month later you&#39;d better have a damn good explanation where you were, if you get caught it&#39;s a &#036;7500 fine or 6 months in prison. And they&#39;re not fucking around.

If you&#39;ve got a couple grand to spend, you&#39;re better off signing up for a legal &#39;cultural sightseeing&#39; type trip, there&#39;re dozens out there; the SWP does one where you stay with a Cuban family and meet with communist party officials and elected rep&#39;s and shit.

[Fidel Castro]

The best (and safest) way of visiting Cuba is through a Solidarity campaign, that way you live and work with the people, get the chance to visit schools and hospitals, and have some free time left over to see the sights and visit the stunning countryside. They last about a month or so, but you can extend your stay.

Cuba Solidarity Campaign (http://www.cuba-solidarity.org.uk)

[elhumano]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 03:34 PM

Sorry if my hard work got me more then others. But what one puts into life is what one gets out.

Typical capitalist bullshit&#33;

It&#39;s called "taking credit for my wins" and "blaming others for their losses".

When I was burned out of my apartment house last week, was it because I "didn&#39;t put enough into life"? Or was it the ancient wiring in the attic that the landlords never bothered to upgrade?

Guess.

The universal casino that is capitalism produces, as a by-product, an insufferable smugness among the winners. I can&#39;t wait to see how smug they will be when they find their asses in front of a revolutionary firing squad.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas
You are so right RedStar. I blame everyone else for their losses. Not...thats life. Believe it or not you are not the only one who loses shit. Your response was typical underprivledged bull shit&#33;? So, I blame you because your apartment burnt down. I blame you because I was willing to go out and find a good job to be able to afford the things in life I enjoy. (Considering this isnt what I honestly think) Is it unfortnate yes. I never said that you didnt put enough into life, because your apartment burnt down. If i were you i&#39;d either get my landlord to house me and if he didnt i&#39;d beat the shit out of them. There is a difference in someone not working hard and fucking themselves. (i would consider these people losers) and people who get fucked are unfortunate and need to fight for what they believe is right, not ***** about those who dont have to deal with those specific issues.

[lucid]

I was in an apartment while my house was being built. That &#036;25 a month for renters insurance was a comforting thing. If you can&#39;t afford &#036;25 a month in insurance move back in with a family member or get a roomate.

Reminds me a news report I saw a couple of years ago in Miami. Some poor Cuban families trailor burned down and they where on the air crying about how they lost everything and couldn&#39;t afford insurance. I was feeling bad until they shows a recent picture of the family in the livingroom of there former home. Right behind them was a huge big screen TV that I would of loved to have. But, I couldn&#39;t afford one because I decided insurance was more important.

[Sabocat]

1) you need to obtain a visa before arriving in Cuba, or they won&#39;t let you in.

Absolutely incorrect. All that is required from a boat visiting from the U&#036; is a radio call within 12 miles of the Cuban coast. Once in, the Cuban officials will oblige you by not stamping your passport. Thus not providing any evidence that you were there. It is best to check in at Marina Hemingway, as that is the port that handles the bulk of boat traffic.

It&#39;s not illegal to travel to Cuba according to U&#036; law, just illegal to spend money there. You can be sponsored by someone from Canada etc. and they can provide a letter that states that you were their guest while there, and that you spent no money. The U&#036; basically decides that if you&#39;ve been to Cuba, and didn&#39;t have sponsorship that you spent money. It does cost money upon arrival in the form of the various tax/duty. It&#39;s very cheap but that matters not to the U&#036; govt. There have been stories of people being fined &#036;5000+ and now with the stricter enforcement, probably much higher. Ideally if you can go and get back without notifying them, you&#39;ll be better off in the long run.

You are supposed to clear out with the U&#036; Coast Guard informing them of the area you are operating in (Cuban Territorial Waters) however few do.

Even though the trip is 90 miles, because of the Gulf Stream, it can be a considerably rough ride. The boat should be well found, and prepared for the frequent violent squalls over that stretch of water. Also keep in mind that under rougher conditions, a small powerboat will use considerably more fuel. Plan for that. You&#39;d be better off buying a small sailboat, although the voyage would be longer in duration.

This is by far the best book on this subject.

http://lincoln.midcoast.com/~ncalder/cuba.html

[Glasgow]

Was Che not brought up by a very middle class family but instead dedicated his life to equalaty.

[C_Rasmussen]

I work as a dishwasher in a restaurant once a week, live at home, am carless but I have a tv.

[Manic_Fist]

it doesn&#39;t matter if you are a worker or the owner of a business...as long as you really believe in what you claim to believe in...there are no rules...that you have to conform to ...to become a communist....and if you front,you don&#39;t deserve to live.

[Cullmac]

I think that the age old belief that the proletariat are people who work in factories doesnt fit in today&#39;s society, well at least in the more economically developed world. The modern day &#39;workers&#39; of today are people in offices who earn considerably less then the people above them. They are also people who work in chain shops, even university graduates who earn a meagre wage.
In the past 50 years secondary industry (manufacturing) has heavily declined as the tertiary industry (services) has increased. We are all workers, comrades who believe in a fairer world.

[Cult of Reason]

I am in general from a middle class background.

Both my mother and father went to University (doing Archaeology and Fisheries Biology, respectively). My mother is currently doind a PhD in Linguistics. My late father spent a decade working for the Icelandic government in the department that sets fishing quotas and regulates fishing, and it is there that he first started using punch-card computers. He then worked in various jobs involving computers.

On my mother&#39;s side: My mother is one of four siblings, all of whom went to university (one to a polytechnic), including the sole brother who did a Mathematics degree at Imperial College London, a Masters in Mathematics at Oxford and tried (and failed) to do a PhD in Mathematics at Oxford (apparantly, he could not solve the mathematics problem. Apparantly, however, it was solved in the &#39;90s, so it might have been Fermat&#39;s Last Theorem, in which case there were probably some mathematical methods in the &#39;90s that were not there when he tried his PhD). The sisters married men from Italy and East London (this one divorced, she now lives with someone from Tobago). The brother&#39;s wife is from Surinam.

The grandmother came from a middle class family but, being female, did not go on to higher education. The grandfather was one of eight siblings, seven male. His father was a fisherman in Cornwall. He attempted to get a pharmacological degree, but his money then ran out, so he became a school teacher.

On my late father&#39;s side: Father was one of three siblings. At the age of three they moved from Iceland to Rome, because the grandfather worked for the UN. The grandfather came from the Icelandic working class (his father a cabinet maker) and had managed to somehow get to University (I think there might have been government help, though), going to the University of California (I think Berkely), doing some type of Marine Biology (probably fisheries). The grandmother was the best (pre-university) student in Iceland, and came from Icelandic Upper Middle Class, and went on to University too.

I myself am an A-level student and I am going to do Physics at University next year.

Now that the pointless detail is over:

I do not see how my background should have any influence over my ideology.

[Sentinel]

I work for the leading passenger shipping company on the northern Baltic Sea.
I&#39;m a cashier in the Taxfree shop on one of their ferries trafficking between Sweden and Finland. (Btw, if I don&#39;t reply to a post for a couple of days, this is propably the reason. I have only limited computer access onboard).
I got communism with the breastmilk so to say, my parents both being devoted marxists.

Working on the sea is not the proletarian utopia precisely. The shipping companies
constantly threaten to register their fleets under flags of convenience,
pressing the unions to accept wagecuts. We also get to work unpaid hours, and are
constantly "whipped" to maximize the sales.
Even though I&#39;ve always been a leftist, working for my current company has greatly elevated my class consciousness.

[which doctor]

I am a high school student who is looking for a job. My dad is a top guy at the local steelplant and he is in charge of a few hundred people. I live in a petty-bourgeios family, but so were both Marx and Engels. I do not act rich and I try to have a moderate living. My parents have cable TV, but I almost never watch it. I will get a car when I get my license, but it is just an old Toyota Camry. I am not as spoiled as I could be.

I could think of some other very famous communists who grew up in petty-bourgeois families.

[Atlas Swallowed]

I have been working since I was 12. Mostly manufacturing. Do not want to say who I work for now, since the company is about everything I am against. Have to feed my children and work is scarce in my area. It sucks to go against your beliefs but my childrens wellfare come before anything else.

[ColinH]

I grew up in a "middle-class" family. My father still works as an electrician and my mother is a store clerk. My sister is on her way to Gambia to work in an AIDS program. I am studying to become a teacher eight months out of the year and working in a Michelin plant for the other four to pay for it.

Oh yeah, and I have a fantastic lil&#39; sugar mama to help me out. :D

[LA GUERRA OLVIDADA]

I&#39;m lower middle class. Basically my family works long hours and saves a lot of money to have the things we have now.

[VonClausewitz]

Well, depending on which workers you count -

Aspiring Major (and in-training second-lieutennent) in the 11th Hussars(Prince of Wales&#39;s Own).

And no, I don&#39;t have any money, have any desire to murder babies or whatever, and don&#39;t particularly care for far-right politics. I just always wanted to join the army, and well, my Grandfather, after leaving the Lancers, was a Hussar, so I couldn&#39;t find a better regiment.

[visceroid]

Originally posted by lucid+Apr 11 2004, 02:49 AM--> (lucid @ Apr 11 2004, 02:49 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 03:15 AM

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 02:55 AM
You guys are begging for the abuse.
:lol: Nice retort.... *sarcasm monotone* please, you are making me question all my ideals with that incredible response...
I don&#39;t want you to change your ideals. People like you make me money. I am hear for the comedy factor.


Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 03:38 AM

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 03:33 AM

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 03:15 AM

[email protected] 11 2004, 02:55 AM
You guys are begging for the abuse.
:lol: Nice retort.... *sarcasm monotone* please, you are making me question all my ideals with that incredible response...
I don&#39;t want you to change your ideals. People like you make me money. I am hear for the comedy factor.
Well, of course...thats why you&#39;re a capitalist...you make money off the poor. :D
Negative, I actually give money to the poor. I make money off of the lazy, unmotivated, someone needs to take care of me type of people. Like you. [/b]
notice the contradiction here? we are the ones that make the money for you, yet somehow we are also the ones who need other people to take care of us? through our labour we take care of both you and us you lazy prick.

[commiecrusader]

This is an entirely irrelevant question. I happen to be a working student but so what if there are members of the bourgeoisie who realise how exploitative there class happens to be and want to change it. Is this wrong?

On to a far more important question.

Exactly how many of the cappies and bigots restricted to this Forum, are in fact genital warts surrounding the arsehole of the world?

[Iroquois Xavier]

Originally posted by Y2A+Apr 10 2004, 03:22 AM--> (Y2A &#064; Apr 10 2004, 03:22 AM)
Rasta [email protected] 10 2004, 04:04 AM
Correct&#33;

little faggit mother fucker, choke on my cock, *****
No queerball. [/b]
How on earth did these people get in in the first place? :blink:

Im a poor student :( Hey, it dont matter tho :rolleyes:

Mo Money,Mo problems&#33; :D

[Scars]

I&#39;m presently unemployed, having just finished school. At present it looks like I&#39;m gonna end up working as a motel cleaner (I live in a small-ish city, there ain&#39;t a whole lot of work around) and I&#39;m probably going to start and apprenticeship next year. Do I own a TV? No, but my parents do so i don&#39;t need one at the moment (still living at home). Do I own a car? No- I hate cars, cannot drive and couldn&#39;t afford the running costs, or the car anyway.

As for my background, I come from a middle class family, both presently work at the university here, but Mum use to be a mid level civil servant (town planner) until she was restructured out of existance. Both my parents came from working class backgrounds (Mum: father- mechanic left school at 14, mother- typist. Dad: father- carpenter, left school at 14, mother- shop assistant) but were both bright so went right through school and got scholarships to go to university.

The assumption that most of the peopel on this site are white, male and middle class is a fair one though. I fit into all 3 in fact (although I shant be middle class for very much longer). This is because little effort is made to actually attract workers to communism because it&#39;s a hard thing to do and because it&#39;s easier to attract students. The rank and file of most Communist Parties in teh first world tend to be students and petty bourgeoise (in my experience atleast). Part of teh problem is that Marxism is made far more inaccessable than it really is, introduction pamphlets assault people with no idea about Marxism with words and terms that your average person doesn&#39;t understand- imperialism, bourgeoise, proletriat, class struggle, etc etc. You must walk before you can run and you must crawl before you can walk.

Most of the &#39;greats&#39; were of petty bourgeoise backgrounds, Marx and Engels definately included, so I don&#39;t think it matters a great deal. What matters is your actions.

[Forward Union]

I work at a Solidarity Center, and am a student.

My dad was a factory worker, and my mum works for a charity.

[pravyj]

I&#39;m presently unemployed, having just finished school. At present it looks like I&#39;m gonna end up working as a motel cleaner (I live in a small-ish city, there ain&#39;t a whole lot of work around) and I&#39;m probably going to start and apprenticeship next year. Do I own a TV? No, but my parents do so i don&#39;t need one at the moment (still living at home). Do I own a car? No- I hate cars, cannot drive and couldn&#39;t afford the running costs, or the car anyway.
Do you expect the employer to knock on your door? If there aren&#39;t good jobs in your area go to a different city.

[Hegemonicretribution]

I am a student/barperson. Up until September I was a full time brewery worker, but I have now moved back into full time education, working in a pub (sometimes a club) part time to help supplement my living along with my grant. I had to move back into home to do this, but it should be worth it in the long run.

I don&#39;t own a car, and I do not watch television. I would say that the middle class lable is true perhaps on the socio, but not the economic aspect. I grew up on benifits and my mother&#39;s part time salary, and my father only returned to work when they split up when I was 16. I have never been in a family with money, but there has always been boks, and I admit to being well read/spoken.

This whole thread would not change an awful lot though. Even a brief look around this place would indicate that actual class consciousness of the proletariat is prevented by the near cultural hegemony, resulting from the bourgious control exercised over many of the agents of socialisation. Also the middle classes are more likely to be "educated" beyond basic indoctrination, and own a computer.

[Tungsten]

Additives Free

I work at a Solidarity Center, and am a student.

You work at a what?

[Notaleftist]

I work in a small factory that makes construction equipment. I started out working in a machine shop polishing parts and going to school to be a machinist. Now I&#39;ve worked my way up to Engineer, but I still get my hands dirty everyday. BTW, I own a home, two cars and a couple of TV&#39;s, all the fruits of my labor.

[STI]

I&#39;m at school right now and have a job as well. I work full-time in the summer.

[OkaCrisis]

Myself, and every single person I know is a just another working whore.

We will work our whole lives producing value for owners, selling the only thing that we have the means to produce: labour.

I have been working since I was legally allowed. My mother has worked her whole life. We will both work forever and never have a FRACTION of what even some of the comprably "less well-off" rich people in the world make in a decade.

And THAT&#39;S HOW IT IS for billions of people worldwide.
We&#39;re born workers, not owners, and that&#39;s how it will always stay, since wealth has been passed down through only the richest families since the beginning of "time". (< read: Capitalism)


If you think that anyone here is just a "rich white kid" rebel-without-a-cause, I think that you&#39;re sorely mistaken. We&#39;re rebels WITH a cause. And it&#39;s YOU.

[Monty Cantsin]

Originally posted by A Free [email protected] 10 2004, 01:23 AM
Am I right in thinking that you are mostly middle class office workers , Who own a car , a TV and live in one of the rich Western Nations?


i have not read this thread but...white collar workers are workers. and they dont always pay good.

[pravyj]

Originally posted by "OkaCrisis"
Myself, and every single person I know is a just another working whore.

We will work our whole lives producing value for owners, selling the only thing that we have the means to produce: labour.

I have been working since I was legally allowed. My mother has worked her whole life. We will both work forever and never have a FRACTION of what even some of the comprably "less well-off" rich people in the world make in a decade.

And THAT&#39;S HOW IT IS for billions of people worldwide.
We&#39;re born workers, not owners, and that&#39;s how it will always stay, since wealth has been passed down through only the richest families since the beginning of "time". (< read: Capitalism)

If you think that anyone here is just a "rich white kid" rebel-without-a-cause, I think that you&#39;re sorely mistaken. We&#39;re rebels WITH a cause. And it&#39;s YOU.

If you are unhappy with your remuneration, what have you done to increase it?

Most commies do nothing but blame the others for their situation, while having little knowledge of economics. If you&#39;re unhappy with your job then quit, if not then shut up.

[somebodywhowantedtoleaveandnotcomeback]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 11:10 AM
Most commies do nothing but blame the others for their situation, while having little knowledge of economics. If you&#39;re unhappy with your job then quit, if not then shut up.
Yeah, &#39;cause in a capitalist society, you don&#39;t need to earn money to survive... :rolleyes:
What are you, 10 years old? Grow up.

[pravyj]

Originally posted by RedFaction
Yeah, &#39;cause in a capitalist society, you don&#39;t need to earn money to survive...
Nobody is forcing you to live in capitalist society. You don&#39;t need money to survive, there are still lot of tribes living happily without them. They would welcome you to join them. But you choose capitalist society, because you believe you can still have better standard of living than being on your own.

[Kittie Rose]

Originally posted by A Free [email protected] 10 2004, 12:51 PM
First of all I apoligise for my slow response .
I was asking because I was wondering if most of the people on this site were rich white kids (no offence ment). I wanted to know because on all the leftist sites on the internet i can find no real plans for the revival of communism and I have had a lingering feeling that many of you are complaining about issues that do not affect you while doing nothing to achieve what you all claim to want
I know this is old, but, I wanted to share my views.

First of all, socialism and communism aren&#39;t the same thing, and many people here are socialist, or from other schools of leftist idealogy.

Complaining about issues that don&#39;t affect one&#39;s self is a sign of selflessness - something capitalism does not appear to understand.


Nobody is forcing you to live in capitalist society. You don&#39;t need money to survive, there are still lot of tribes living happily without them. They would welcome you to join them. But you choose capitalist society, because you believe you can still have better standard of living than being on your own.

That&#39;s bullshit. I don&#39;t choose capitalist society. I choose to live where I can find friends I relate, places I like, and where I can have a way of life I am used to. Going out to live with some tribe is not an alternative, especially for someone like me who has an illness that cannot be dealed with in any other way. Civilisation is better than no civilisation(though being a nature lover, I sometimes wonder), but socialism is better than "any" civlisation. Being a child of the right you are probably used to more binary and simplistic views.

[pravyj]

Originally posted by Kittie Rose
I don&#39;t choose capitalist society. I choose to live where I can find friends I relate, places I like
I&#39;m sure native tribes are very friendly and if you like nature you would also like the environment where they live.


and where I can have a way of life I am used to.
I think this is the main reason. You can&#39;t just give up your lifestyle and don&#39;t want to admit it openly.

And I&#39;m neither right wing or left wing.

[Hegemonicretribution]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 02:55 PM
Nobody is forcing you to live in capitalist society. You don&#39;t need money to survive, there are still lot of tribes living happily without them. They would welcome you to join them. But you choose capitalist society, because you believe you can still have better standard of living than being on your own.
This response I like, because, and it is something I have said repeated times here, I do fully intend to withdraw from capitalism if the anti-capitalist movement hasn&#39;t started making serious tracks by the time I am middle-aged.

I have been periodically withdrawing, and practicing the skills required since my early teenage years, and it is something I have kept up consistantly. The reason I haven&#39;t fucked off yet is because I feel a duty untowards others, something you might not understand.

What I take as neccessary for my standard of living is actually better met free from class conflict, I am putting up with shit at the moment so I can change it, that is all.

There is however a coercive force working against this, and we all know what has happened to these tribes at the hands of capitalism. This is the point, whilst they might be able to happily live seperate from capitalism, capitalism cannot tollerate this. The land is needed for profit, and because a truly stateless society doesn&#39;t work on "laws" the larger force of capitalism persecutes them.

Also where I live there is no where I can go, everywhere is owned. I would have to stockpile funds to take me somewhere where I could stay for any length of time free from disturbance, even then this isn&#39;t guaranteed.

There are also environmental issues, but I think I have made enough points already to quash your nonsence already.

[Atlas Swallowed]

Originally posted by pravyj+Jan 19 2006, 02:55 PM--> (pravyj &#064; Jan 19 2006, 02:55 PM)
RedFaction
Yeah, &#39;cause in a capitalist society, you don&#39;t need to earn money to survive...
Nobody is forcing you to live in capitalist society. You don&#39;t need money to survive, there are still lot of tribes living happily without them. They would welcome you to join them. But you choose capitalist society, because you believe you can still have better standard of living than being on your own. [/b]
Being a capitalist it is obvious the only concern you see is for yourself. The capitalist system brings misery and death for many across the world for the benefit of the few. You are foolish enough to support a system that brings war, famine, pollution and tyranny to the world so a small percrntage of worlds population can remain grossly wealthy. Besides who chooses the world they are born into. The choice is whether you stand against injustice or take the easy way out and bleat with the other sheep.

[Kittie Rose]

Originally posted by pravyj+Jan 19 2006, 03:43 PM--> (pravyj @ Jan 19 2006, 03:43 PM)
Kittie Rose
I don&#39;t choose capitalist society. I choose to live where I can find friends I relate, places I like
I&#39;m sure native tribes are very friendly and if you like nature you would also like the environment where they live.


and where I can have a way of life I am used to.
I think this is the main reason. You can&#39;t just give up your lifestyle and don&#39;t want to admit it openly.

And I&#39;m neither right wing or left wing. [/b]
No, I do not wish to give up my lifestyle, I said that. Please listen to what I said. I prefer civilisation to no civilisation at all, however, I prefer socialism to capitalist civilisation. What is so hard to understand? I do not choose capitalism, I choose civilisation.

No to mention I can&#39;t go off and join some native tribe because of medical issues that I need constant support for.

[Tungsten]

Atlas Swallowed

The capitalist system brings misery and death for many across the world for the benefit of the few. You are foolish enough to support a system that brings war, famine, pollution and tyranny to the world so a small percrntage of worlds population can remain grossly wealthy. Besides who chooses the world they are born into. The choice is whether you stand against injustice or take the easy way out and bleat with the other sheep.

I&#39;ve got a challenge for you: Pick each and every claim out of that passage and prove them.

[Kittie Rose]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 09:20 PM
Atlas Swallowed

The capitalist system brings misery and death for many across the world for the benefit of the few. You are foolish enough to support a system that brings war, famine, pollution and tyranny to the world so a small percrntage of worlds population can remain grossly wealthy. Besides who chooses the world they are born into. The choice is whether you stand against injustice or take the easy way out and bleat with the other sheep.

I&#39;ve got a challenge for you: Pick each and every claim out of that passage and prove them.
I really wouldn&#39;t say that, because you know some uber well read dude is going to come along and do it and make you look like a dumbass. Which, interestingly, I have no qualms with.

[Tormented by Treachery]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2006, 09:20 PM
Atlas Swallowed

The capitalist system brings misery and death for many across the world for the benefit of the few. You are foolish enough to support a system that brings war, famine, pollution and tyranny to the world so a small percrntage of worlds population can remain grossly wealthy. Besides who chooses the world they are born into. The choice is whether you stand against injustice or take the easy way out and bleat with the other sheep.

I&#39;ve got a challenge for you: Pick each and every claim out of that passage and prove them.
I&#39;m not so sure about an uber well read dude, but I shall do my pathetic best.

1) "The capitalist system brings misery and death for many across the world for the benefit of few."

You&#39;re an Iraqi, it&#39;s 2002. You&#39;re under a dictatorship, but you&#39;re one of the lucky 50% that have clean drinking water, and hey, the policemen and military may be brutal, but they&#39;re your countrymen and there is room for lenience because you have a relative that&#39;s a captain. Furthermore, the government is as stable as hell. Leader, no, but government, sure.

You&#39;re an Iraqi, 2005. The Americans invaded. They bombed your city, they dismantled your government, they killed your family in the process, only your withered old father remain. That drinking water? Gone, you&#39;re now one of the 60% that DONT have it. Your job at the oil field? Since Bush took it over and appointed the head of Shell Oil to sell off the fields one month after invading, the Americans have come in and fired those who aren&#39;t too supportive. Your father gets humiliated by xenophobic, ignorant, thug-like American troops, yells back, and gets brutally shot and murdered as an &#39;insurgent.&#39; He&#39;s one of 30,000 civilian casualties. However, you can rest assured, because oil company profits reach all-time highs, in double-digit billions in one quarter, despite the companies laying off their own workers and gas prices soaring. God bless capitalism, non?

2) "You are foolish enough to support a system that brings war, famine, pollution, and tyranny to the world so a small percentage of worlds population can remain grossly wealthy."

You do support capitalism. What country consumes the most oil, earning the nickname "Fossil Fuel Pigs," and then refuses to sign the Kyoto treaty on top of it? The most industrialized and the most capitalistic in the world. Coincidence? Sure. I mean, after all, it&#39;s not like anyone has died (barring a few million native americans, many mexicans, a whole bunch of spanish troops and missionaries, a couple hundred thousand african slaves, millions of child laborers in the country and outside of it) to establish this beautiful system. You don&#39;t think that tyranny is brought by capitalism? How many non-christian American presidents have there been? How many homosexuals? Members of a minority? Shit, there was only one that wasn&#39;t married&#33; I&#39;d say there&#39;s a fair amount of white, upper class, christians that are running this country. Oh, by the way, can you name me a major news outlet that is owned by someone who isn&#39;t a member of this group? How about a senator that doesn&#39;t happen to be a millionaire? Please. Money is concentrated into the hands of those who were most willing to exploit others-- rich white guys. And it has been this way in America since, roughly, 1620.

And that&#39;s just America, the damn country itself&#33; If we treat our own Countrymen like that, imagine those poor saps in Africa (who we invaded, took over, and when civil war shit hit the fan, backed out, establishing a capitalist tradition in an under developed country, resulting in corruption and greed such as never been seen, a tradition continuing today, 150 years later).

3) "Besides who choose the world they are born into."

Would you like me to prove that &#39;pre-emptive action&#39; doesn&#39;t apply to nature :lol:

4) "The choice is whether you stand against injustice or take the easy way out and bleat with the other sheep."

So, judging from the rap sheet on capitalism, as I&#39;ve brought up, is that injustice?
Resounding answer? FUCK YES&#33;

So, do you acknowledge this, or do you go with the masses and ignore this, fighting for your own good? Do you stay silent in the face of evil or do you show empathy and compassion and fight for a cause greater than yourself? I guess I can&#39;t force you to be human.