The more I think about it...

[DarkAngel]

-Now dont declare me trator yet, but lately I've noticed how greedy people are. I mean really, people with take the chance of getting hit by a car, just to pick up a dollar. I mean in communism everybody is equal, and there is no belongings, right? But isnt it human nature to believe the grass in greener on the other side (even if its not true). So isnt there always going to be a person that believes that they should have (ohh lets say a blue beenie baby toy) the blue beenie baby, or a bigger blue beenie baby. Its human nature to want things to yourself. And if everything is public property what is going to stop a person from comin into your house?

PLEASE NOTE: I am not supporting capitalism in anyway shape or form, just getting some thoughs out there.

[Shredder]

Under capitalism, it is human nature to want things to yourself. Under super-utopia-ideal-communism, it is human nature to love, and various other touching sentiments.

[flayer2]

I think communism can work... getting there is the problem for me. You say its human nature to be greedy... to want special previliges etc... Do you consider yourself to be greedy? If not then what separates you and other considerate persons from all the rest? is it in the genes or social upbringing? I think its the latter.

[Rasta Sapian]

its time for everyone to get past our primortial instincts>>>survival of the fatest!

together we can take mankind to new conciousness>>>>>lets evolve people!

peace love and unity

[Misodoctakleidist]

You've got to consider how much of 'human nature' is a social creation. The concept of human nature is a fictional one used by conservatives to justify their ideology, the only thing we can't change is our instincts but if 'huamn nature' has a wider meaning then surely it would have to include everything a person is capable of doing. When talking about human nature people often refer to 'cavemen' and other ridiculous notions of what's natural, this argument has even been used as a justification for rape, our society is natural otherwise it wouldn't exist, when dogs hunt in packs are they defying 'canine nature'?

[Comrade BNS]

all true what people have said, and to answer your question dark angel, no i don't believe that communism can truly work, but not for the reasons and concerns you expressed...well at least not communism as it is now...i direct you to the works of Ziauddin Sardar and Sohail Inayatullah to explain why these euro-centric social systems, such as communism, socialism etc... cannot work as a worldview

Comrade BNS

[Y2A]

The only reason people turn to communism is because they see only the faults of capitalism and don't even think about the faults of attempting to create a communist society.

[Misodoctakleidist]

Please enlighten us Y2A,

Actually i wasn't convinced of communism for about a year after i rejected capitalism, that was before i took a serious look at comunist theory.

[Y2A]

Face it Mis, most people on these boards are driven to communism due to their hatred of capitalism. That's the truth.

[Misodoctakleidist]

Not everyone on this forum is a communist, there are alot of anarchists, socialists and social democrats. If we were all 'driven to communism due to our hate of capitalims' then we'd all be a bunch leninist, stalin excusers like on alot of other forums.

[New Tolerance]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 02:38 PM
Face it Mis, most people on these boards are driven to communism due to their hatred of capitalism. That's the truth.
Lol, I'm drawn to communism because I'm patriotic. I come from a so called "communist" country.

Ok, don't call me a nationalist yet, all I'm saying is that how it got started.

[Nyder]

Communists obviously have an envy problem. Instead of going out and legitimately creating wealth for themselves, they want to steal it.

Now who's going to be the first to mindlessly repeat the 'labour theory of value'?

[New Tolerance]

Communists obviously have an envy problem. Instead of going out and legitimately creating wealth for themselves, they want to steal it.

Is it because of human nature?

[The Feral Underclass]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 02:32 PM
The only reason people turn to communism is because they see only the faults of capitalism and don't even think about the faults of attempting to create a communist society.
To fucking right we see the bad parts. Come to africa and see for yourself what capitalism is!

As miso said, please, enlighten us to the good parts of capitalism. They must be pretty good to cancel out, poverty, starvation, wars, exploitation and alienation!

[Misodoctakleidist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 03:24 PM
Now who's going to be the first to mindlessly repeat the 'labour theory of value'?
The value of a commodity is the mannifestation of the amount of congealed homogeanous human labour socialy expended in it's production.

Now let me fo you the favour of mindlessly repeats randian economic theory; wealth is created by virtue, anyone who has wealth must have had virtue to create it, the fact that they had virtue is proven by the fact that they have money and the this proves the first sentence by demonstating that everyone who has virtue has money in an equal proportion.

[DarkAngel]

I am just saying, look at the world around us. Do you really think people will ever truly consider everyone around them equal? There are always going to be people that believe they are just better...more worthy.

[Comrade Raz]

I'm not certain that communism will work but i'm fucking certain that we have to strive to make the world better than it is today. And some people will keep fighting the system if they are unhappy and exploited until we either reach a situattion where all people are equal and happy or we'll all be dead from the fighting and the bombs the exploiters are bound to drop on those who are fighting them.

So even if communism won't work in it's pure form people will always fight the oppresser until they get something similar or end up dead.

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 04:18 AM
-Now dont declare me trator yet, but lately I've noticed how greedy people are. I mean really, people with take the chance of getting hit by a car, just to pick up a dollar. I mean in communism everybody is equal, and there is no belongings, right?
Brainwash. The idea that risking you life to get a dollar is good then that's insanity. Greed is part of natural instinct to me, and it's more obvious with such a system as capitalism. But i think such a situation that you mentioned is even worsened by capitalism. People think that they can "make" it and come out safe and with their dollar. It's not always going to happen.


And if everything is public property what is going to stop a person from comin into your house?

I don't think people will make houses collective property, so a new order will be based around respect, and the possibility that the other people can have a gun. We have to understand why people enters other people's houses first, then start thinking about such situations.


Communists obviously have an envy problem. Instead of going out and legitimately creating wealth for themselves, they want to steal it.

Wow! Be careful, the communists have nothing better to do that go and steal your "hard earned" money for themselves! I think you are paranoid. Plus I have never heard a better and realistic explanation than Marx's concerning the creation of wealth, that is not some crappy mythological and epic Ayn Rand story.


Is it because of human nature?

Maybe. It's just that cappies don't accept Marx's theory of value so they can't understand the socialist-styled systems and ideas. It's maybe because they are some rich yankees that kind they are gods or something.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 03:24 PM
Communists obviously have an envy problem. Instead of going out and legitimately creating wealth for themselves, they want to steal it.

Now who's going to be the first to mindlessly repeat the 'labour theory of value'?

This oddly contradicts your other argument that the members here are a bunch of rich kids.


Anyway I agree that communism will not work but capitalism is extremely flawed in itself, some kind of socialism is probably the best system.

Human nature is too complex for the generalisations branded about by all sides here.

I am being slowly driven to nihilism the more I read Marx, Rand and a plethora of political theorists.

[Nas]

hmmm... i cannot really talk to you on communism because i believe , it would be a different society than where we live now
you say in communism every one is equal , hmmm..... well im not sure about this , what do you mean , you mean everyone will be equal because they have the same amount of money? ?


on the other hand i can talk about Socialism , in Socialism everyone will not really be equal , i mean everyone will get pay fairly .
Because everyone has enough money to attend school, almost everyone will be well educated , decreasing the amount of theft.

[Vinny Rafarino]

I mean in communism everybody is equal, and there is no belongings, right?


Exactly. no one will ever own anything again. We will all wear the same red coverall everyday and spend all of our time marching up and down the square. Oh how glorious it will be.



But isnt it human nature to believe the grass in greener on the other side (even if its not true).


The grass is only greener when our glorious leader tells us so. Otherwise we will pretend it is not.



So isnt there always going to be a person that believes that they should have (ohh lets say a blue beenie baby toy) the blue beenie baby, or a bigger blue beenie baby

Possession of beanie babies is counter revolotionary. Those that have these impure thoughts will be condemned for their subversive ways and immediately executed...er...I mean re-educated.



Its human nature to want things to yourself. And if everything is public property what is going to stop a person from comin into your house?


Our triple-dog secret red police will be sure to re-educate those that will stray from their marching duties to break into your communal home that will be shared with 86 other communist collective beings.





PLEASE NOTE: I am not supporting capitalism in anyway shape or form, just getting some thoughs out there.



PLEASE NOTE: Try reading something other than Barnes and Noble's "communism for dummies".

[LuZhiming]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 04:18 AM
-Now dont declare me trator yet, but lately I've noticed how greedy people are. I mean really, people with take the chance of getting hit by a car, just to pick up a dollar. I mean in communism everybody is equal, and there is no belongings, right? But isnt it human nature to believe the grass in greener on the other side (even if its not true). So isnt there always going to be a person that believes that they should have (ohh lets say a blue beenie baby toy) the blue beenie baby, or a bigger blue beenie baby. Its human nature to want things to yourself. And if everything is public property what is going to stop a person from comin into your house?

PLEASE NOTE: I am not supporting capitalism in anyway shape or form, just getting some thoughs out there.
The supposed natural selfishness of humans did not prevent them from making many of the advancements in very unselfish concepts, such as relative freedom of speech, workers right, Human Rights, etc. You will notice that certain places have people much more greedy than others. There's a reason for that, selfishness is escalated by the sort of society one lives in.

Also, it is a ridicolous idea to believe that: "since we all seem to act selfishly, that's how we must be." There isn't anything preventing advancements, we are not limited, we are not robots. Before making such assumptions one should ask: "Under different conditions, to what extend would that selfishness be an issue?" Such reflection is significant.

To move to another point, there can be greed in a Communist society. There will often be personal greedy actions by a particular person, which in certain societies will not have such widespread affects as they do in the present world. People lived for centuries in bands. The point isn't that selfishness will be wiped out entirely, but the point is whether or not our system of living should be a system that promotes and indeed necessitates selfishness as a way of life.

The arguement that it is natural for humans to consider the "grass being greener on the other side" is fairly easy to respond to. A Communist, or Anarchist, or in general an individual wanting a better society and way of life does not mean a person attempting to create perfection. There will be plenty of problems. But that does not mean problems cannot be reduced, and a better system would do that.

And furthermore, only a delusional person would follow any sort of ideology because they think that it will happen. That is not the point. Such cowardly acts are not ones any person hoping for improvement of any kind should participate in. The entire meaning and point is hope. One should hope that a better system will be established one day, and work toward that goal, whether or not it actually happens. Anyone that gives up on something because they are not ensured of its success, does not deserve it in the first place.


The only reason people turn to communism is because they see only the faults of capitalism and don't even think about the faults of attempting to create a communist society.

That isn't the point. You should know, some "faults" are considered worse than others. That is merely an issue of common sense.

[El Che]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 03:24 PM
Communists obviously have an envy problem. Instead of going out and legitimately creating wealth for themselves, they want to steal it.

Now who's going to be the first to mindlessly repeat the 'labour theory of value'?
It is the wealthy that are theives. They steal trillions everyday. You live in a fantasy world where everything is upside down. It is denial.

[peaccenicked]

The question is not whether or not commuism will truly work. That is to give it a reality that requires visual examination. Marx was concerned with the univeralisation of humanism, that is not merely a possibility,it is an expression of the potentiality of humanity.
Nowhere does he think it will be easy. It will be an uphill struggle till the very last vestige of the dehumanising bonds of capitalism are dead.
Yet it is not inevitable, our species may die prematurely due to some ecological disaster or the madness of the post modern era might just leave us in a hellish stasis.
However, as long as there is people interested in making the world a better place to live in, there is every chance they will find a way to conquer the seemingly unsurmountable problems of our present day sick society.

[Nyder]

Originally posted by El Che+Apr 10 2004, 03:39 AM--> (El Che @ Apr 10 2004, 03:39 AM)
[email protected] 9 2004, 03:24 PM
Communists obviously have an envy problem. Instead of going out and legitimately creating wealth for themselves, they want to steal it.

Now who's going to be the first to mindlessly repeat the 'labour theory of value'?
It is the wealthy that are theives. They steal trillions everyday. You live in a fantasy world where everything is upside down. It is denial. [/b]
Only because of the labour theory of value which has already been disproved. You are basing your entire argument on one flimsy theory.

[Nas]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 04:58 AM
The question is not whether or not commuism will truly work. That is to give it a reality that requires visual examination. Marx was concerned with the univeralisation of humanism, that is not merely a possibility,it is an expression of the potentiality of humanity.
Nowhere does he think it will be easy. It will be an uphill struggle till the very last vestige of the dehumanising bonds of capitalism are dead.
Yet it is not inevitable, our species may die prematurely due to some ecological disaster or the madness of the post modern era might just leave us in a hellish stasis.
However, as long as there is people interested in making the world a better place to live in, there is every chance they will find a way to conquer the seemingly unsurmountable problems of our present day sick society.
i take my hat off to you

[Red Skyscraper]

Humans are not naturally greedy. What makes people greedy is being exposed to so many advertisements and material garbage as a child. When you look at preindustrial cultures around the world, those people who grew up in a life without a car or a house, or every little piece of worthless crap that gets sold surrounding them did not become greedy. When hunting or gathering, these people took what they needed and they respected nature and were well-disciplined with care towards themselves and the environment. They were not obese consumers who constantly went around robbing people of money because money did not exist, and there was no motivation to compete with each other or to be subservient to an individual or class elite.

Communism will definitely work, we just need to try hard not to think like Capitalists and rid ourselves of our materialist impulses.

[GUTB]

May I ask for a refrence to the refutation of Marx's theory of labor value?

[Hoppe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 06:49 AM
May I ask for a refrence to the refutation of Marx's theory of labor value?


Check for Carl Menger, Alfred Marshall, William Jevons or Leon Walras. Or read Marx, in a way he himself refuted the theory in his last book. There should be some texts on the internet.

[New Tolerance]

Only because of the labour theory of value which has already been disproved. You are basing your entire argument on one flimsy theory.

Which kind of communism are you attacking? We don't ALL care about that theory.

[redstar2000]

The plain fact of the matter is that no one "knows" whether communism on a large scale will "work" -- the available evidence up to this point is too sparse and fragmentary.

What is obvious to anyone who is willing to investigate the matter to any depth is that capitalism, regulated or unregulated, is monstrously unjust and inequitable. Its pretensions of being a "meritocracy" are flat out lies. It can continue to survive only by police terror and quasi-fascist "security" measures domestically and imperialist aggression abroad. Its leading political and ideological figures are fools or rogues...or both!

Thus we are faced with a system of organized crime that richly deserves to be overthrown and utterly destroyed. Communism -- a classless and stateless society -- is the best idea to replace it that anyone has come up with so far.

It's worth a try.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[GUTB]

No, I mean: Is there a new refutation of Marx's labor value, ie, one that hasn't been dismantled thuroughly a dozen times already?

If not, it really is a waste of time to discuss them because if one cares to learn one may find volumes of very complete defenses against all serious intellectual assaults on the labor value theory.

[elhumano]

I would love to see as everyone as equal. No such thing a seperation of race, social status, religion or anything else that seperates people. But I dont ever see it working. Then again you have to work for what you have and you have to make yourself into something. No restrictions. If you want something in life you have to get it yourself, no ones going just give it to you.

[Hoppe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 12:35 AM
No, I mean: Is there a new refutation of Marx's labor value, ie, one that hasn't been dismantled thuroughly a dozen times already?

If not, it really is a waste of time to discuss them because if one cares to learn one may find volumes of very complete defenses against all serious intellectual assaults on the labor value theory.
Hmmm, are there still people out there seriously working on the labour theory? Care to enlighten me with some sources, I need a good laugh.

[GUTB]

Oh, well, you have no new information just repeating opinions that you've read here and there. Okay, back to the basics for you.

Here's labor value in a few bite-sized chunks:
http://www.marxist.com/Economy/theory_of_value_1.html

Here's a more scholaraly explination:
http://csf.colorado.edu/pkt/pktauthors/Vie...rt/LTV-FAQ.html (http://csf.colorado.edu/pkt/pktauthors/Vienneau.Robert/LTV-FAQ.html)

[Hoppe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 11:16 AM
Oh, well, you have no new information just repeating opinions that you've read here and there. Okay, back to the basics for you.

Here's labor value in a few bite-sized chunks:
http://www.marxist.com/Economy/theory_of_value_1.html

Here's a more scholaraly explination:
http://csf.colorado.edu/pkt/pktauthors/Vie...rt/LTV-FAQ.html (http://csf.colorado.edu/pkt/pktauthors/Vienneau.Robert/LTV-FAQ.html)
Why should I? If Marx (or Ricardo or whomever) himself couldn't come up with a workable theory why bother to keep playing?

But tnx for the links.

[elhumano]

It really isnt that hard. You work for what you want. Did someone just hand you the computer to type on? Let me guess it was the government that gave it to you. If you lived in Iraq maybe Saddam and his regime would have given you the computer. Stop *****ing....those who dont believe in working for something are just weak, and i'll be laughing at you from my BMW while your in the welfare line.

[mysticofthewest]

Crime exist because of our Increased Value of things its that wanting for those things that the society deams important that leads to Crime because not every one has The status

[bunk]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 03:33 PM
and i'll be laughing at you from my BMW while your in the welfare line.
Have you not noticed what arrogant fuckers most BMW drivers are.........

[Nyder]

I would really like to know how you can justify communism without the labour theory of value.....

[Misodoctakleidist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 03:33 PM
It really isnt that hard. You work for what you want. Did someone just hand you the computer to type on? Let me guess it was the government that gave it to you. If you lived in Iraq maybe Saddam and his regime would have given you the computer. Stop *****ing....those who dont believe in working for something are just weak, and i'll be laughing at you from my BMW while your in the welfare line.
How insightful, you should really write a book on economics.

[elhumano]

Just because you drive a BMW doesnt mean that you are arrogant. So what should be done about people who work hard. Is it a crime to be successful? Maybe one should go to jail because they put more time and effort into trying to make themselves something? Everyone who makes money because they worked hard are assholes...(right, maybe if you worked harder you could acheive such a status. Our country doesnt hold people back. Weak people hold themselves back.)

[Misodoctakleidist]

Nobody here is taking you seriously, i doubt even the other capitalists do.


maybe if you worked harder you could acheive such a status You mean like those african 5 year olds who work 20 hours a day in a quary breaking rocks without any tools?

[lucid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 08:04 PM
Nobody here is taking you seriously, i doubt even the other capitalists do.


maybe if you worked harder you could acheive such a status You mean like those african 5 year olds who work 20 hours a day in a quary breaking rocks without any tools?
Yeah, its the evil white rich peoples fault. Has nothing to do with the people that run their country. I am sure the little kids local warlord is gonna sell one of his mansions to by some tools for the locals.

[bunk]

....... it's called 'free trade'

[lucid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 08:32 PM
....... it's called 'free trade'
I know, your perfect comunist state would supply hammers and have everyone breaking rocks.

[elhumano]

Exactly. Those 5 year old Africans really should work harder. Thats not what I was trying to convey at all. Im saying maybe YOU guys should work harder. You guys are probably a bunch of rich stuck up kids yourself. If you felt so bad for those 5 year old kids without hammers maybe you should send them on or two. And if you cant afford it...steal it and then send it to them.