Log in

View Full Version : Uncle Sam unites Shi'a-Sunni



Severian
7th April 2004, 20:06
And all the pundits thought it couldn't be done. Y'know, ancient and insoluble hatreds, Iraq on the brink of civil war, blah blah blah. But now:

"There may also be an ominous synergy developing between Sunni and Shiite insurgents. On Monday, insurgents fought a gun battle against United States troops in a Sunni neighborhood near Khadamiya in which three soldiers were killed. Witnesses said the attackers included a mix of Shiites and Sunnis. "There were Shiites from Sadr City and mujahedeen from Falluja," a hotbed of Sunni resistance, said Ayad Karim, a shopkeeper. "Now the resistance is united."
New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/07/international/middleeast/07SADR.html?pagewanted=1&ei=1&en=c7b85a102499ed5b&ex=1082306676) Really a good article...it appears to have become a real popular uprising, wider than any one organization, at least in that neighborhood. In any case, I think we'll see a lot less religious-sectarian division and violence in Iraq for a while, and the prospect of civil war now seems unlikely. Maybe Bremer should get a Nobel Peace Prize for that?

Also: The American dream to bridge ancient Iraqi sectarian rivalries turned nightmarish Tuesday (http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20040406-035654-8564r) (UPI)...I guess Bush really is a uniter, not a divider!

How did this happen? Well, the occupiers have been stonewalling Shi'a demands for elections for some time. Then, on Sunday, March 28, they shut down a newspaper associated with Muqtada al-Sadr and his "Mahdi's Army": link (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/29/international/worldspecial/29PRES.html?pagewanted=1&ei=1&en=d950015d69f39a3a&ex=1081530126) They said it was inciting violence, which is just plain false; NOW Sadr is inciting violence, and you can see how different things look. And they said it was spreading false rumors; pot, meet kettle.

Al-Sadr began organizing massive, peaceful protest marches like this one. (http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/news/politics/8342209.htm) This went on for a week.

Then, on Saturday, the occupiers arrested one of Sadr's aides, on a warrant that was apparently issued months ago. From the timing, it's clear the motivation was political.

On Sunday, the demonstrations grew bigger and angrier. At least 20 protesters were shot down in Najaf, along with 4 Salvadoran soldiers. According to an AFP correspondent on the scene, the fighting began when soldiers shot at stone-throwers. But the "coalition" claims the "Mahdi's Army" fired first, and we all know of the Salvadoran army's legendary respect for human rights, including the right to assemble and protest, so I'm sure that's true. http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/04/...1017035856.html (http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/04/04/1081017035856.html)

Also on Sunday, 47 demonstrators were shot in Baghdad by (U.S.-commanded) Iraqi police or soldiers, according to the Guardian. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1186566,00.html) Again, it's disputed who fired first. The Guardian article's also interesting for its analysis of why Bremer might be seeking to deliberately provoke armed confrontation in southern Iraq.

In response, Moqtada al-Sadr issued a statement: "I fear for you, for no benefit will come from demonstrations. Your enemy loves terrorism, and despises peoples, and all Arabs, and muzzles opinions. I beg you not to resort to demonstrations, for they have become nothing but burned paper. It is necessary to resort to other measures, which you take in your own provinces. As for me, I am with you, and I hope I will be able to join you and then we shall ascend into exalted heavens. I will go into an inviolable retreat in Kufa. Help me by whatever you are pleased to do in your provinces."

This was widely misinterpreted by pundits and reporters; some even thought he was backing away from confrontation by calling off the demonstration. Obvious now that ain't the case, huh? So lemme just say how I read it: "there's no point in holding peaceful demonstrations when that just gets you mowed down by automatic weapons. It's time to resort to other means."

Clearly the Shi'a uprising was provoked by Bremer, deliberately or otherwise. "Suppressing your newspaper ain't enough to make you resort to force? Then I'll just start arresting your leaders, one by one." And it might well be deliberate: Washington's greatest strength is brute force, and it might well be to Washington's advantage to move things into that arena.

This AP article even argues this may be a good idea. (http://www.trivalleyherald.com/Stories/0,1413,86~10669~2065920,00.html) But then, its author assumes that the "Mahdi Army" will be isolated, not only from other Shi'a organizations, but from the Shi'a population. On that, Bremer seems to have miscalculated...but it's in the nature of imperialism to underestimate the oppressed.

Guest1
8th April 2004, 01:55
[Edit: Zombie will pay]

Intifada
8th April 2004, 12:03
the shia and sunni muslims are uniting to fight an occupier just like the way they united against british rule in the 1920s.


oh, and one more thing, i am officially gay. fell in love with this really hot dude the other day, and you know, one thing led to another, and BANG!

good for you dude! :)

VukBZ2005
8th April 2004, 13:32
Originally posted by Che y [email protected] 8 2004, 01:55 AM
i think that this stinks.

i want my teddy bear back!

oh, and one more thing, i am officially gay. fell in love with this really hot dude the other day, and you know, one thing led to another, and BANG!


hasta la victoria siempre!
Why did you post this here? We're talking about Iraq - not your personal business.

VukBZ2005
8th April 2004, 13:33
Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2004, 08:06 PM
And all the pundits thought it couldn't be done. Y'know, ancient and insoluble hatreds, Iraq on the brink of civil war, blah blah blah. But now:

"There may also be an ominous synergy developing between Sunni and Shiite insurgents. On Monday, insurgents fought a gun battle against United States troops in a Sunni neighborhood near Khadamiya in which three soldiers were killed. Witnesses said the attackers included a mix of Shiites and Sunnis. "There were Shiites from Sadr City and mujahedeen from Falluja," a hotbed of Sunni resistance, said Ayad Karim, a shopkeeper. "Now the resistance is united."
New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/07/international/middleeast/07SADR.html?pagewanted=1&ei=1&en=c7b85a102499ed5b&ex=1082306676) Really a good article...it appears to have become a real popular uprising, wider than any one organization, at least in that neighborhood. In any case, I think we'll see a lot less religious-sectarian division and violence in Iraq for a while, and the prospect of civil war now seems unlikely. Maybe Bremer should get a Nobel Peace Prize for that?

Also: The American dream to bridge ancient Iraqi sectarian rivalries turned nightmarish Tuesday (http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20040406-035654-8564r) (UPI)...I guess Bush really is a uniter, not a divider!

How did this happen? Well, the occupiers have been stonewalling Shi'a demands for elections for some time. Then, on Sunday, March 28, they shut down a newspaper associated with Muqtada al-Sadr and his "Mahdi's Army": link (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/29/international/worldspecial/29PRES.html?pagewanted=1&ei=1&en=d950015d69f39a3a&ex=1081530126) They said it was inciting violence, which is just plain false; NOW Sadr is inciting violence, and you can see how different things look. And they said it was spreading false rumors; pot, meet kettle.

Al-Sadr began organizing massive, peaceful protest marches like this one. (http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/news/politics/8342209.htm) This went on for a week.

Then, on Saturday, the occupiers arrested one of Sadr's aides, on a warrant that was apparently issued months ago. From the timing, it's clear the motivation was political.

On Sunday, the demonstrations grew bigger and angrier. At least 20 protesters were shot down in Najaf, along with 4 Salvadoran soldiers. According to an AFP correspondent on the scene, the fighting began when soldiers shot at stone-throwers. But the "coalition" claims the "Mahdi's Army" fired first, and we all know of the Salvadoran army's legendary respect for human rights, including the right to assemble and protest, so I'm sure that's true. http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/04/...1017035856.html (http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/04/04/1081017035856.html)

Also on Sunday, 47 demonstrators were shot in Baghdad by (U.S.-commanded) Iraqi police or soldiers, according to the Guardian. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1186566,00.html) Again, it's disputed who fired first. The Guardian article's also interesting for its analysis of why Bremer might be seeking to deliberately provoke armed confrontation in southern Iraq.

In response, Moqtada al-Sadr issued a statement: "I fear for you, for no benefit will come from demonstrations. Your enemy loves terrorism, and despises peoples, and all Arabs, and muzzles opinions. I beg you not to resort to demonstrations, for they have become nothing but burned paper. It is necessary to resort to other measures, which you take in your own provinces. As for me, I am with you, and I hope I will be able to join you and then we shall ascend into exalted heavens. I will go into an inviolable retreat in Kufa. Help me by whatever you are pleased to do in your provinces."

This was widely misinterpreted by pundits and reporters; some even thought he was backing away from confrontation by calling off the demonstration. Obvious now that ain't the case, huh? So lemme just say how I read it: "there's no point in holding peaceful demonstrations when that just gets you mowed down by automatic weapons. It's time to resort to other means."

Clearly the Shi'a uprising was provoked by Bremer, deliberately or otherwise. "Suppressing your newspaper ain't enough to make you resort to force? Then I'll just start arresting your leaders, one by one." And it might well be deliberate: Washington's greatest strength is brute force, and it might well be to Washington's advantage to move things into that arena.

This AP article even argues this may be a good idea. (http://www.trivalleyherald.com/Stories/0,1413,86~10669~2065920,00.html) But then, its author assumes that the "Mahdi Army" will be isolated, not only from other Shi'a organizations, but from the Shi'a population. On that, Bremer seems to have miscalculated...but it's in the nature of imperialism to underestimate the oppressed.
this is good news - It's time to drive America and it's money-hoarding oil companies out of Iraq.

monkeydust
8th April 2004, 17:46
Linuxman

Indeed it is good news, if it serves to drive the U.S. out of Iraq.

Currently Bush still seems intent upon leaving in the Summer, though this may be liable to change. I fear that violence such as this may actually give the U.S. justification to prolong the occupation, and to further her imperial interests.

We'll have to wait and see.

mysticofthewest
8th April 2004, 18:25
The U.S planed to leave this summer but with Iraq in so called Turmoil that gives the U.S a Pretext to stay long to ensure that Iraq is made a lacky of the U.S.A.
Saddam was our toady at first and as long as he did as he was tol6d we didn't care what he did however when he stoped we began to try to remove him. anyway what im tring to say is there is no way in hell bush will even risk an anti-american regime gaing the smallest foot hold in Iraq

Severian
8th April 2004, 20:57
Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2004, 12:25 PM
The U.S planed to leave this summer but with Iraq in so called Turmoil that gives the U.S a Pretext to stay long to ensure that Iraq is made a lacky of the U.S.A.
No, they didn't plan to leave this summer. The end-of-June "handover" was always purely cosmetic. As Wolfowitz said recently, "there will be no difference between our military posture on June 30 and on July 1." Even the "new Iraqi army" and police would remain under the command of a U.S. general. The supposed Iraqi government will be appointed by Washington, and effectively powerless anyway.

Only resistance can evict the colonial power. Which is not a recommendation about what forms the resistance should take at any particular time, of course.

Guest1
8th April 2004, 22:57
Originally posted by LinuxMan86+Apr 8 2004, 08:32 AM--> (LinuxMan86 @ Apr 8 2004, 08:32 AM)
Che y [email protected] 8 2004, 01:55 AM
i think that this stinks.

i want my teddy bear back!

oh, and one more thing, i am officially gay. fell in love with this really hot dude the other day, and you know, one thing led to another, and BANG!


hasta la victoria siempre!
Why did you post this here? We're talking about Iraq - not your personal business. [/b]
Seems someone used my account.

I know who it is, and he'll pay.

mysticofthewest
9th April 2004, 01:42
of course the handover is or was just for show but if we had stayed in Iraq without the pretext the U.N. would have said something

Urban Rubble
9th April 2004, 03:41
Haha, CyM, aren't you and Zombie friends ? Was that a joke or was he being a dick ? Either way, it's funny. :lol:

Yazman
9th April 2004, 05:07
Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 01:42 AM
of course the handover is or was just for show but if we had stayed in Iraq without the pretext the U.N. would have said something
If only the US gave a crap about what the UN thinks.

They don't care at all, their government is full of arrogant assholes who get away with whatever the hell they want.

The United Nations is exactly the same as the fucking League of Nations.

USSR!
9th April 2004, 05:11
Bush and the USA can suck my balls!

Guest1
9th April 2004, 07:21
Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 8 2004, 10:41 PM
Haha, CyM, aren't you and Zombie friends ? Was that a joke or was he being a dick ? Either way, it's funny. :lol:
Actually, yes, and it was both :P

Oooh, I'm gonna get him back... don't know when... or how... but I will :D

Oh I know, I think I'll get him real bad next time he gets high around me. I always fuck with his mind, but this time, I'm gonna make it sooo confusing his head's gonna hurt.

Severian
9th April 2004, 08:42
Originally posted by Yazman+Apr 8 2004, 11:07 PM--> (Yazman @ Apr 8 2004, 11:07 PM)
[email protected] 9 2004, 01:42 AM
of course the handover is or was just for show but if we had stayed in Iraq without the pretext the U.N. would have said something
If only the US gave a crap about what the UN thinks.

They dont' care at all. [/b]
Right. And also, other Security Council members like France don't oppose the occupation or advocate getting out of Iraq. They just want to make it a UN occupation, that is they just want a share of the loot (whenever the oil starts flowing again). Makes no difference to Iraqis.

Comrade BNS
9th April 2004, 10:45
the prospect of civil war now seems unlikely. Maybe Bremer should get a Nobel Peace Prize for that?


LOL!! were you serious? I hope not!....

And the uniting of Shias and Sunnis can be put down to pure nationalism, nothing more.most of the groups participating in the opposition are nationalist based, no matter what they're religious claims are...

I'm not saying that this nationalist network and resistance is bad, but the sunni-shia thing doesn't really come into it at all, especially since in his farewell sermon Mohammed denounced nationalism of all kinds...so the true religious followers as they will tell you, oppose the opposition of their lands utterly, but remain true to their religion above all else.

Comrade BNS

Severian
10th April 2004, 08:58
Hey, Kissinger has a Peace Prize, why not Bremer? Besides, Alfred Nobel's prizes should always go to people who make things go boom.

Sure, it's nationalism, and may be temporary, but very significant I think. The Sunni-Shi'a sectarian conflict is real, has gone on for centuries on and off, and is one of the things imperialism was counting on for "divide and rule."

Up til now, armed resistance to the occupation has been supported almost exclusively by Sunni Arabs. Especially in regions where people supported the old regime, or at least didn't strongly oppose it. A fair number of old-regime military officers, security forces people, and yes, Saddam Fedayeen belonged to it - they're mentioned in every "inside the Iraqi resistance" account by journalists that I've seen. Bush gives a simplified, cartoonish version in going on about "Ba'athist remnants" but up til now there's been a certain amount of truth to it.

That's over now. Now armed resistance has spread throughout Iraq, except the Kurdish north, and includes people who were against Saddam Hussein long before Bush was.

Gen. Sanchez has expressed concern about the cooperation between the Sunni and Shi'a fighters, and a desire to keep it from spreading beyond the "tactical level".

Hitman47
11th April 2004, 22:30
LOL!

Well, just like the Matrix, it would seem we now have Iraq: Reloaded (which may well mean Iraq: Revolutions is in the near future). But anyway, as some of us said before this whole thing got underway, the resistance would be bigger than any 'remnants of the regime' argument that Rumsfeld etc. like to use, and with growing Shia discontent (along with strong Sunni rebellions in the 'triangle) I really can't see this sorting itself out between now and..... when are the US planning to leave? June? Hmmm, that means both SHia and Sunni rebellion groups must be extinguished in 3 months. Chances of that happening? Not much. So, will the US pull out and leave Iraq in the hands of the UN? I don't really see the point. The UN are a peacekeeping force, and in Iraq at the moment there is not a heck of alot of peace to keep. But then, how will W explain this one, if he needs to send more troops to Iraq and basically admit that the war is still going on. EIther way, the US is caught between a rock and a hard place. Pull out soon, and there is a high chance civil war is in the pipeline. Wait, and even more people will be asking about this administrations 'gameplan'.

:blink: :rolleyes:

Comrade BNS
12th April 2004, 00:48
good point, but I don't really get the matrix reference....could you please explain?

Comrade BNS

Hitman47
12th April 2004, 02:44
Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 12 2004, 12:48 AM
good point, but I don't really get the matrix reference....could you please explain?

Comrade BNS
Yea, like U.S thinking that Iraqis are free and happy, well not necessarily. Now we have a comeback from the Iraqis. Iraq: Reloaded ;)


which in the future will be Iraq: Revolutions, meaning there might be a revolution or civil war.

Hope that clears up <_<

Severian
12th April 2004, 05:46
Just wanted to post a couple news links:

Protest strike shuts down Baghdad (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/04/11/1081326987895.html) Though it&#39;s gotta be hard to strike when unemployment&#39;s so high and the economy&#39;s basically shut down anyway....

Batallion of "new Iraqi army" refuses orders to "fight Iraqis" (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4711706/)

No real transfer of sovereignty (http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/ny-pow0410-story,0,3445024.story?coll=ny-worldhomepage-headlines)

That last one contains an admission by Powell. that the U.S. will retain command of Iraqi military forces. Just to make it completely clear that nothing is intended to change on June 30.