Log in

View Full Version : Morality



The Feral Underclass
7th April 2004, 10:35
I was reading Peter Kropotkin's essay called 'Anarchist Morality' and he quotes this young nihilist from Tzarist Russia. I wanted to share it with everyone. Maybe there can be a debate.


"I will be immoral! I will be immoral and why should I not? Because the bible wills it? But the bible is just a collection of Babylonian and Hebrew traditions, traditions collected and put together like the Homeric poems, or as is being done still with Basque poems and Mongolian legends. Must I then go back to the state of mind of the half civilized people of the east?

Must I be moral because Kant tells me of a categoric imperative, of a mysterious command which comes to me from the depths of my own being and bids me be moral? But why should this "catagoric imperative" exercise a greater authority over my actions than that other imperative, which at times may command me to get drunk. A word, nothing but a word, like the words 'Providence' and 'Destiny,' invented to conceal our ignorance.

Or perhaps I am to be moral to oblige Bentham, who wants me to believe that I shall be happier if I drown to save a passerby who has fallen into a river than if I watched him drown?

Or perhaps because such has been my education? Because my mother taught me morality? Shall I then go and kneel down in church, honour the Queen, bow before a judge I know to be a scoundrel, simply because our mothers, our good ignorant mothers, have taught us such a pack of nonsense.

I am prejudiced - Like everyone else. I will try to rid myself of prejudice? Even though immorality be distasteful, I will yet force myself to be immoral, as when I was a boy I forced myself to give up fearing the dark, churchyards, ghosts and dead people - all of which I had been taught to fear.

It will be immoral to snap a weapon abused by religion; I will do it, were it only to protect against the hypocrisy imposed on us in the name of a word to which the name morality has been given."

The Feral Underclass
20th June 2004, 12:59
*BUMP*

For the attention of revolutionindia!

The idealist
20th June 2004, 16:42
It all depends on your view on morality. Being afraid of entering a churchyard is more a cultural problem than a moral one (too much television).

I am moral because is beneficial to more people than just myself. Thus it is the most effective idea.

DaCuBaN
20th June 2004, 16:45
This is the point being made though: we are ALL in our way 'moral'

It's entirely subjective, no two people have identical morals, at best some will share common morals.

It's an attack against anyone who tries to use morals as an argument for abstinance - be it from sex, drugs, alcohol, or even capitalism... and it's invalid.

The Feral Underclass
20th June 2004, 16:46
Originally posted by The [email protected] 20 2004, 06:42 PM
It all depends on your view on morality. Being afraid of entering a churchyard is more a cultural problem than a moral one (too much television).
The comparison is made to highlight that they are both absurd prejudices that can easily be discarded.


I am moral because is beneficial to more people than just myself. Thus it is the most effective idea.

But what is morality? and why is your concept of morality better for everyone?

Pedro Alonso Lopez
20th June 2004, 17:07
Morality is just interpetation. Same with everything.

You accept them because otherwise the discources of power will see to it that you are in jail.

elijahcraig
20th June 2004, 20:43
It's entirely subjective, no two people have identical morals, at best some will share common morals.

I find this somewhat simplistic.

You would have to take a look at the effect of the collective moral system, if an "individual" morality can even develop from this, etc.

You do not develop an individual morality, you take the cultural morality and either react well towards it, or feel displaced. This is herd-mentality. Only in extremely rare cases do people develop their own mentality, Jesus, Sade, Nietzsche, etc. These are all cases of people ignoring the cultural morality. This does not happen as "no two people are alike," but as rare individuals in a sea of herd-thought. The majority are utilized in a society as survival techniques, in order to fight against the morality of nature (none), and the rare individuals are the focal points of society, seeing through this, etc. Ever read Freud's "The Future of an Illusion"?

apathy maybe
21st June 2004, 00:34
The only morals you need are
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you (unless you have different tastes)
Do anything you want that does not infringe the freedoms of others

Really who needs morals? If you want to kill yourself (by whatever means), fuck in a park, masterbate, none of these things hurts anyone else so why shouldn't you do it?

(Freedoms of others: don't smoke where the smoke can screw up someone elses lung, don't destroy public transport, don't hurt others (unless they want you to)

Guerrilla22
21st June 2004, 00:58
We had this dicussion my philosphy class. What is morality? and who defines what is moral and what isn't. I guess everyone has their own opinions of what's moral and what isn't to state the obvious. Unfortunately there are people out there who take the bible and other religious text to be the absolute authority over morality, it is those people who should read that quote.

Urban Rubble
21st June 2004, 01:19
Really who needs morals? If you want to kill yourself (by whatever means), fuck in a park, masterbate, none of these things hurts anyone else so why shouldn't you do it?

Killing yourself would hurt many people, that is, if anyone cares about you whatsoever. Fucking in a park is just something many people wouldn't want to see, I sure as hell don't want to see about 90% of the population naked, much less fucking.

I think alot of people confuse the meaning of morality. The reason I don't kill people isn't because I have morals, it's because anyone can see that killing people is wrong. I don't fuck little kids becuase it isn't socially acceptable, I don't fuck kids because it isn't right (regardless of what some nutters on this board want to tell you).

elijahcraig
21st June 2004, 07:55
The reason I don't kill people isn't because I have morals, it's because anyone can see that killing people is wrong.

I don't agree here. I don't kill people because there are consequences. If there were none, many a dead person would litter my path.

As to fucking kids...I don't see any justification for having sex with someone who is not developed sexually.

revolutionindia
21st June 2004, 08:04
Now what are morals?
I do not know

But I know what is good for me and what is bad and try
to do those good things which results in positive personal growth and development.


Really who needs morals? If you want to kill yourself (by whatever means), fuck in a park, masterbate, none of these things hurts anyone else so why shouldn't you do it?

Are you sure you will not hurt anyone by these actions?

What about your mother who carried you for nine months in her womb
and suffered to bring you into this world and looked after you till you could fend for yourself only so that you can kill yourself when you get high on drugs?

Shame on you
You will be the disgrace of her.

What about your father ?Will he jump with joy when he comes to know that his
son commited suicide?

What about your girlfriend/wife?and friends?

Sex in public?

How does having sex in public benefit you in anyway
that you should want to do it.

Give me one reason for supporting sex in public?

You are a kid who had a bad childhood who wants to do all this
only because someone told you not to do this.

Grow up son


Anarchist

About the drugs thing
I see no benefits whatsoever acruing from doing drugs

Do you know why people do drugs?
I think they do it
because they are incomplete

Most of them do not know about it, nor do they
know how to become complete beings

They can't come face to face with reality

They want to escape

But drugs is hardly the solution to your problems

Its just a temporary solution which prevents you from
ever coming to a final solution

You also talk about people should have freedom to choose
whether they want to do drugs or not?

This is wrong

You live under an illusion that majority of the
people are mature,intelligent and
capable of deciding what is good for them.

This could not be farther from the truth

This is the 21st century
Most people are incomplete and know little about
their true selves all are lost in their
endless and meaningless quest of wealth,sex and wine.

Most people are drunk with ignorence.

The bottomline of this post is

The necter of true knowledge which complete's a person
is hard to find and digest for those who
indulge in immoral activities.

ÑóẊîöʼn
21st June 2004, 12:32
What about your mother who carried you for nine months in her womb
and suffered to bring you into this world and looked after you till you could fend for yourself only so that you can kill yourself when you get high on drugs?


If his mother wanted something that would slavishly devote themself to her she would have got a dog.
Humans have free will as soon as they are Human. Free will entitles you to do what you want unless you are physically restrained. Killing himself in any manner may hurt the feelings of his mother would she would still have experienced the pain of childbirth whether or not he topped himself or not.
And since people die anyway why not allow people to expire at a time of their choosing?


Sex in public?

How does having sex in public benefit you in anyway
that you should want to do it.

Give me one reason for supporting sex in public?

You are a kid who had a bad childhood who wants to do all this
only because someone told you not to do this.

Grow up son

Give us a reason for NOT having sex in public.
And what is wrong with questioning the norm?

It's what communists do.


Do you know why people do drugs?
I think they do it
because they are incomplete

Some of them may do it because they feel 'incomplete'. This is due to the alienating nature of class society.
People also use drugs out of curiosity, for fun, to boost their performance, or to relieve stress (Do you drink tea or coffee?)


You live under an illusion that majority of the
people are mature,intelligent and
capable of deciding what is good for them.

This could not be farther from the truth

Most people, when given the right choices, will do the right thing.

The debate is over whether to allow them to make their choices.


This is the 21st century
Most people are incomplete and know little about
their true selves all are lost in their
endless and meaningless quest of wealth,sex and wine.

Most people are drunk with ignorence.

The capitalist 'rat race' has many people feeling bewildered and despondent, and in some cases angry. Most people seek contentment but capitalism urges them to take more, more, MORE!

But people will still want to smoke the occasional spliff.


The bottomline of this post is

The necter of true knowledge which complete's a person
is hard to find and digest for those who
indulge in immoral activities.

'Immorality' make us naturally selfish and evil? please.

Real morality is having the wherewithal not to harm others (Which drug use DOES NOT do) and not to interfere in other's freedoms.

elijahcraig
21st June 2004, 12:54
Most people, when given the right choices, will do the right thing.

The debate is over whether to allow them to make their choices.

There is no "right thing."


Real morality is having the wherewithal not to harm others (Which drug use DOES NOT do) and not to interfere in other's freedoms.

I have the same problem with this thrusting of preference on a subject, unjustifiably, as I do with your definition of a "True Civilization" (City of God sounding to me).

ÑóẊîöʼn
21st June 2004, 13:04
There is no "right thing."

the right thing is whatever they damn well please.

revolutionindia
21st June 2004, 15:29
Originally posted by [email protected] 21 2004, 06:02 PM

If his mother wanted something that would slavishly devote themself to her she would have got a dog.
Humans have free will as soon as they are Human. Free will entitles you to do what you want unless you are physically restrained. Killing himself in any manner may hurt the feelings of his mother would she would still have experienced the pain of childbirth whether or not he topped himself or not.
And since people die anyway why not allow people to expire at a time of their choosing?



Give us a reason for NOT having sex in public.
And what is wrong with questioning the norm?

It's what communists do.



Some of them may do it because they feel 'incomplete'. This is due to the alienating nature of class society.
People also use drugs out of curiosity, for fun, to boost their performance, or to relieve stress (Do you drink tea or coffee?)



Most people, when given the right choices, will do the right thing.

The debate is over whether to allow them to make their choices.



The capitalist 'rat race' has many people feeling bewildered and despondent, and in some cases angry. Most people seek contentment but capitalism urges them to take more, more, MORE!

But people will still want to smoke the occasional spliff.



'Immorality' make us naturally selfish and evil? please.

Real morality is having the wherewithal not to harm others (Which drug use DOES NOT do) and not to interfere in other's freedoms.



A mother has the right to expect some things from her offsprings
This is not the animal kingdom that you live in that when you are 1
year old your mother will hound you away to live on your own

A child owns a lot to his parents.They are the support on which he
grew from a creeper to a sturdy plant.

I have a feeling of gratitude towards my parents
because what I am today and will be in the future
will be partly because of them.

If you kill your self
your mother will feel that she has failed in
bringing you up as a good human
and also she will regret bringing you into this world
for you just killed yourself.

You have no respet for life

Noxion If you think you have done your mother a favor by
being born to her

Then you are an ungrateful wretch

You will be like the millions who leave their parents in old age home's

Shame on you

Having sex in public is just insane and a prepostorous idea

You are forcing other people to look at your naked bodies

You have no privacy when sex is supposed to be all about intimacy and
loving each other

Young people will be exposed to unnecassary stuff on the street

I can think of a hundred other reasons

It just does not make sense???


Immoral things such as drugs
only create obstacles in one's path to liberation.

Life is a gift and should not be wasted by killing oneself

If Killing myself would hurt some of the people I know
then I would never do it

The purpose of my existence or for that matter any one's else's
is to serve other people

Any person no matter who he is is more useful alive than dead.

For one's liberation one should serve society.

Strength is life
Weakness is death
Drugs is weakness

apathy maybe
22nd June 2004, 01:54
I will repeat what NoXion said about having sex in public, why not?
The Human body is a natural thing and it is not a shamefull thing. If you are ashamed of your or someone elses body you need to think about why. Is it that you were brought up wrong? Please give your hundred other reasons.
Why is sex about loving and caring? And if it is we should have it with all our friends. Why is it a private thing? Bonobos don't think so.

I'm not going to argue about my right to kill myself or otherwise mutilate my body (through drugs or someother why). I don't, but if I want to I should be able to.
But do you support the right of a 90 year old person to kill themselves (their parents are dead after all), or someone with a incurable disease?

elijahcraig
22nd June 2004, 09:21
the right thing is whatever they damn well please.

This contradicts your former post.

Daymare17
22nd June 2004, 14:49
http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/wo...36/1936-mor.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1936/1936-mor.htm)

An excellent summary of Marxist morality. Explains how violence can be defended when directed against the exploiters etc. It's where my sig is from.