"Must we burn Sade?"

[elijahcraig]

What place does Sade hold in philosophy and art?

Foucault called him a savior, for Huxley he was a the only true revolutionary, and for Camus he was a misguided rebel.

There are many views on Sade. I, personally (as an "I" cannot escape being my opinion!), adopt of him a favorable view.

I agree with Foucault on Sade for the most part. And I also wish that Nietzsche had read the Marquis.

[Nickademus]

can you elaborate on why foucault and huxley refer to him as such? i don't know their opinions on de sade so ican't comment until you elaborate.

[bombeverything]

He had alot of interesting theories about freedom from oppression, he attacked the state and the right to property. What is there not to like?

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

I figure that Sade is an interesting character and tackles issues many of us do not dare touch, I believe the most apt title to be: Rebel.

[elijahcraig]

He had alot of interesting theories about freedom from oppression,

He also had many freedoms about the freedom to oppress. In his view, as in Nietzsche's, to be Free is to be able to say "I am master of myself...and others as well." " According to Foucault, that is the Greek view (Ancient Greek).


he attacked the state and the right to property.

He never attacked the right to property. He was a wealthy aristocrat who despised the revolution (though he did write a pamphlet on a utopian island he wished to make reality).




What is there not to like?

I personally agree with all of his points. So I would say nothing.



can you elaborate on why foucault and huxley refer to him as such? i don't know their opinions on de sade so ican't comment until you elaborate.

Read Foucault's "History of Sexuality" and Huxley's "Ends and Means" (I think that is what it was called.

You'll just have to read it yourself.

Simone de Beavoir wrote an essay on this subject entitled, "Must we burn Sade?" as well.

A book by Shattuck (Forbidden Knowledge) has a chapter on The Divine Marquis, and goes into deep analysis on his effect on culture.

[kingbee]

i personally think that he shunned society,profited from the french revolution (liberty), and, being a libertine, had the ultimate freedom- freedom from society's views.

although i suppose he could have used this freedom better than writing about random sex.

[elijahcraig]

The problem with ^that, is that it doesn't take into account the fact that he was most likely insane. Which means he didn't have much "ability" to do certain things. He certainly had some "problems" with assaulting and murdering prostitutes for one thing.

[Urban Rubble]

I'm completely ignorant on this subject (big suprise, right?). Murdering prostitutes and philosophy go hand in hand in my opinion !

Kidding, obviously, anyone got any links ? I seriously need to educate myself a little better in Philosophy.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

http://neilschaeffer.com/sade/

Just google Marquis de Sade or but a The in front of it. He is not a philosopher, he is, well, its the kind of thing you must see yourself.

One mention og sexuality and everybody wants to study philosophy.

[elijahcraig]

He certainly wasn't a philosopher "proper." He had probably read everything written on the subject, as well as any literature (he had a 600 volume library in the asylum).

[redstar2000]

I'm probably one of the few folks on this board that has actually read De Sade's Justine (if I remember the title correctly). It's a work that celebrates the "erotic pleasures" to be gained by the rich and powerful (or extremely secretive) in torturing, raping, and murdering "low class" women and girls.

Modern "Sadism" is a pale reflection of the original; sexual pleasure gained through consensual (and strictly limited) "bondage & discipline". Participants regard it as a "role-playing game" and their whips and chains are called "toys".

Must we "burn De Sade"? How about just relegating him to a small footnote in the history of 18th century France.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[Lefty]

I, personally, derive great pleasure from murdering lower-class young girls.

[praxis1966]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 07:18 PM
I'm probably one of the few folks on this board that has actually read De Sade's Justine (if I remember the title correctly). It's a work that celebrates the "erotic pleasures" to be gained by the rich and powerful (or extremely secretive) in torturing, raping, and murdering "low class" women and girls.

Modern "Sadism" is a pale reflection of the original; sexual pleasure gained through consensual (and strictly limited) "bondage & discipline". Participants regard it as a "role-playing game" and their whips and chains are called "toys".

Must we "burn De Sade"? How about just relegating him to a small footnote in the history of 18th century France.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas
Hey, nobody is perfect. (I'm kidding, before you get all worked up.) I did have to be amused when I saw the this quote, however.

It requires only two things to win credit for a miracle: a mountebank and a number of silly women. --Marquis de Sade

[elijahcraig]

I'm probably one of the few folks on this board that has actually read De Sade's Justine (if I remember the title correctly). It's a work that celebrates the "erotic pleasures" to be gained by the rich and powerful (or extremely secretive) in torturing, raping, and murdering "low class" women and girls.

Modern "Sadism" is a pale reflection of the original; sexual pleasure gained through consensual (and strictly limited) "bondage & discipline". Participants regard it as a "role-playing game" and their whips and chains are called "toys".

Must we "burn De Sade"? How about just relegating him to a small footnote in the history of 18th century France.


Philosophy of the Bedroom is much better, in my opinion. Juliette also. Have you read “Dialogue between a priest and a dying man”?

Considering I don’t exactly oppose any aristocratic attitudes towards the herd, I disagree.

[BuyOurEverything]

I've read 'Dialogue between a priest and a dying man' and found it very enjoyable, although not perticularily original.


Considering I don’t exactly oppose any aristocratic attitudes towards the herd, I disagree.

What do you mean by this?

[Fidel Castro]

de Sade is an interesting and controversial character. As has been said he approached subjects which no-one would consider going near (even today) and wrote candidly, if not explicitly about them.

I have read "Incest", which as the title suggests rotates round what is even today a taboo subject. I found that this was quite mild compared to the likes of 100 days of Sodomy, which to me appears to be naught more than a catologue different sexual exploitations.

[elijahcraig]

What do you mean by this?

It means I don’t care what the high-valued do to the herd (multitude of sheep).

Nietzschean thought.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Are you a Marxist elijah, just out of curioisty, I am not one myself.

[elijahcraig]

To an extent, though I don't have the insane ideas some have here.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Which ideas do you consider insane.

[elijahcraig]

Dogmatism towards idealized leaders, obsession with "proving" religion wrong and standing behind "unshakable" reason as a human instinct, willingness to censor and control artistic freedoms in order to achieve a deformed workers state, the inability to comprehend the utopian nature of "communism" (I think many would agree "Communism" will never be achieved), etc.

I agree with Marx's theory of value, and all that follows in economics.

I don't harbor the insane resentment most do towards "whites", or whoever else has "invented" certain social problems.

I consider myself an Artist, more than a political cohort.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2004, 09:21 PM
Dogmatism towards idealized leaders, obsession with "proving" religion wrong and standing behind "unshakable" reason as a human instinct, willingness to censor and control artistic freedoms in order to achieve a deformed workers state, the inability to comprehend the utopian nature of "communism" (I think many would agree "Communism" will never be achieved), etc.

I agree with Marx's theory of value, and all that follows in economics.

I don't harbor the insane resentment most do towards "whites", or whoever else has "invented" certain social problems.

I consider myself an Artist, more than a political cohort.

I agree with most of your views on communism there but as somebody who finds economics diificult I will have to wait until my study of the subject over the summer is complete before I can really say anything.