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Invictus
5th April 2004, 00:47
Well look at what privatisation does to the workers of Pakistan http://www.ptudc.org/Anyway I never met a rightwinger who could show that freetrade made more than a handfull of people rich- Teis


Mass firings - sacificial for profits, Workers - serivice of others, Workers - Commodity of employers. Hey isnt that capitalism.- comrade neonate


being a communist isn't fashionable anymore, it is sooooooo not cool
let's be a cappie en exploit others.............- Pingu

The above comments make abundantly clear the limited research this board’s members have done into to the theories they claim to follow and those they claim detest. For the benefit of those who have been hoodwinked into following socialism I have but together a brief piece on the practical implications of capitalism.

Private ownership encourages economic efficiency and competition while ensuring that entrepreneurs have a right to the profits generated by their own efforts. Consequently entrepreneurs are given an incentive to search for better ways of meeting consumer needs. Be it by the introduction of new products, the development of more efficient means of production, higher quality after-sale services, or through more competent management than competitors.

Contrast this to the environment under a command economy. Enterprises, that are state-owned, have little or no inducement to control costs and maintain efficiency because there is no way they can go out of business. The abolition of private ownership eliminates the incentive for individuals to search for new ways of serving consumer needs and results in an absence of dynamism and innovation.

Even the armchair communists that infest this site should know that innovation and entrepreneurship are the primary engines of growth. By innovation I mean new products, new processes, new strategies, new management practices and new organizations. It is obvious that to sustain economic growth, the business environment must be conducive to these factors. So, what kind of system best encourages innovation? Capitalism. To reinforce what I said above, under a free market economy any individual who has an idea is free to begin a business and make money out of it, just as an existing business is free to improve operations through innovation. Depending on their level of success, the individual entrepreneur and the established business can each reap rewards in the form of high profits. Herein lie the enormous incentives created in capitalist economies to embrace innovation.

In circumstances where all means of production are owned by the state, as in a command economy, incentive to innovation is removed because it is the state, rather than the individual, that receives all gains. This lack of economic freedom and incentive for innovation was the prime cause for the economic stagnation that occurred throughout the Marxist states of Eastern Europe and even some of the mixed economies of the west. Observe that those nations with the greatest level of economic freedom (Hong Kong, Singapore, the United States etc.) also rank among the highest in terms of economic growth.

The assertion that global capitalism is detrimental to the poor of the world is another common fallacy. By lowering tariffs on imports, producers of poorer nations have access to lucrative markets in the west that would otherwise be denied to them. Similarly, western businesses have the freedom to move firms of shore, giving jobs to citizens in nations with a lack of domestic producers. Observe that in 1970 South Korea and Ghana had an equal GDP. South Korea recognised trade as a positive-sum game, concentred its resources on the production of goods that they produced most efficiently, engaged in trade to acquire those goods that they did not produce, and allowed “sweetshops” to be set up by foreign companies. Now South Korea has the 12th largest economy in the world while Ghana, who committed itself to “Pan-African socialism”, is in the same stagnant swamp that it started off in.

Don't Change Your Name
5th April 2004, 03:27
Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2004, 12:47 AM
Private ownership encourages economic efficiency and competition while ensuring that entrepreneurs have a right to the profits generated by their own efforts.
It all sounds good until you realize this is an utopia!! Plus, the entrepeneus have a right to "profit generated by their own efforts"??? Blah blah blah.


Consequently entrepreneurs are given an incentive to search for better ways of meeting consumer needs.

What? They are given an incentive to invest their profits on better ways to create even more profits. What you just wrote is just a way of making it sound "nicer".


Contrast this to the environment under a command economy. Enterprises, that are state-owned, have little or no inducement to control costs and maintain efficiency because there is no way they can go out of business. The abolition of private ownership eliminates the incentive for individuals to search for new ways of serving consumer needs and results in an absence of dynamism and innovation.

In case you didn't realize, not everyone here want a "command economy" where "enterprises" are "state-owned". And in a REAL socialist society, people would have "incentives" to improve things and do what they fell would improve people's lives because it would surely affect them directly.


Even the armchair communists that infest this site should know that innovation and entrepreneurship are the primary engines of growth.

Maybe. But why do those "entrepeneurs" need to take private property over means of production and then hire those dispossessed "lazy idiots" to produce things for them? That's the point of all this discussion.


By innovation I mean new products, new processes, new strategies, new management practices and new organizations.

Such things will exist in every single political/economical system.


To reinforce what I said above, under a free market economy any individual who has an idea is free to begin a business and make money out of it, just as an existing business is free to improve operations through innovation.

And the rest "should die because they are lazy unable disabled people and should dissapear from the gene pool". Social darwinism at it's best.


This lack of economic freedom and incentive for innovation was the prime cause for the economic stagnation that occurred throughout the Marxist states of Eastern Europe and even some of the mixed economies of the west.

"Lack of economic freedom"??? I get what you try to say, but honestly, only someone who's having a great time in a "western" country can think that capitalism represents "economic freedoms".


The assertion that global capitalism is detrimental to the poor of the world is another common fallacy. By lowering tariffs on imports, producers of poorer nations have access to lucrative markets in the west that would otherwise be denied to them.

WHAT??? Yeah, to sell grains for example, and other cheap crap. Of course that with such a few money such countries can't have "heavy" industries and end up depending on the global markets. Only the owners of the means of production see some cents out of that money anyway. Plus, the industrialized and advanced countries then come to sell their nice products, which means that all the money goes to buy such things, and those who invest to compete with such corporations lose because of costs, lack of technology, lack of money to invest in advertising (capitalist propaganda), and that of course if there's people who actually have money to invest.

Hiero
5th April 2004, 12:44
Invictus and all this leads to what we said, have a look around you fool.

Misodoctakleidist
5th April 2004, 13:29
Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2004, 12:47 AM
and allowed “sweetshops” to be set up by foreign companies.
I'm sure no one would complain if capitalist companies were setting up "sweet-shops"

You've completely papered over the fact that communism isn't a state-owned economy, communism is stateless.

Entrepreneurs rarly come up with innovations, they just sell other people's, communism won't stop people having ideas and there'll always be an incentive to make their work more efficient becuase it benifits everyone directly, including them so in fact there'll be more incentive since people who don't have capital are also capable of benifiting from innovation.

Even if there is less innovation, which i doubt, so what? Is it better that everyone has a basic TV or that some poeple have widescreen TV's and everyone else struggles to buy enough food to survive?

The reason S Korea experienced such rapid economic growth is becuase they has an oppressive military dictatorship which surpressed workers rights and forced them to work long hours with little pay in poor conditions.

Osman Ghazi
5th April 2004, 22:06
The reason S Korea experienced such rapid economic growth is becuase they has an oppressive military dictatorship which surpressed workers rights and forced them to work long hours with little pay in poor conditions.

So did North Korea but that is neither here nor there.

Invictus, first of all your argument is faulty because it is based on the assumption that greed is the only incentive and that it is the best incentive. But besides the fact that material incentives bring a lot of ugly baggage with them, they are not the only incentives around and they should be used in only the most dire of situations.


The assertion that global capitalism is detrimental to the poor of the world is another common fallacy. By lowering tariffs on imports, producers of poorer nations have access to lucrative markets in the west that would otherwise be denied to them.

First of all, I'd like to say that for someone who claims to be smarter than the rest of us you're being terribly facetious. There is absolutely no way in hell that an industrial company in a third world country could ever beat out a company from the West. Ever. Except maybe Mecca Cola beating Coke. Secondly, in terms of agricultural/resourcing operations, they also cannot compete except by having a much lower labour cost, which means that people are paid less than before. Also, America is the biggest subsidizer of agriculture and consequently, agricultural produce is rarely imported. The only chance they have to compete is if the resource does not exist in the West.

It just goes to show that you can't trust a guy with Atlas Shrugged for an avatar.

Shredder
5th April 2004, 23:24
I was originally going to thoroughly shred Invictus, but after a good night's sleep I've decided to pace myself and only give it a cursory counterargument.

First of all, let me edit one of your paragraphs to make clearer my position. My alterations in bold.



Private ownership encourages economic efficiency and competition by ensuring that only entrepreneurs have a right to the profits generated by workers' efforts. Consequently only entrepreneurs are given an incentive to search for better ways of generating profit by means that may or may not meet consumer needs. Be it by the introduction of new products, the development of more efficient means of production, higher quality after-sale services, or through more competent management than competitors.


You also left out a few ways to generate profit, such as creating shoddily built products that have to be replaced. Anyhoo, the point is that capitalism only rewards entrepreneurs, and at the penalty of the workers. Happy cappies typically respond with some mumbo-jumbo about how anyone can become a capitalist or that the capitalist earned it by making the oh-so-tough executive decisions. Either way, someone has to do the work, and whoever it is, capitalism doesn't pay for him.


Enterprises, that are state-owned, have little or no inducement to control costs and maintain efficiency because there is no way they can go out of business.

That's why my planned economy wouldn't be totalitarian, but would involve democratic unions of workers balanced against still other councils of consumers (who are simultaneously workers, of course) where all officials are actual workers, paid as actual workers, and immediately recallable. You complain of planned econimies having no incentive to meet consumer needs--in mine, the consumers are the producers. What more incentive is there?!


Marxist states of Eastern Europe

I must object again. Most people who still call themselves Marxist are quite critical of any country which has hitherto claimed to be 'communist.' But the progress of these countries must also be noted. How many 3rd world countries have been pulled out of poverty on a capitalist basis, compared to eastern europe? Many of the eastern european countries also collapsed catastrophically when the move to capitalism was made.


The assertion that global capitalism is detrimental to the poor of the world is another common fallacy.


An expert for the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organizations said that if food production was organized as it is in Holland, there would be enough food to feed 67 billion people...(From YFIS, interesting facts (http://www.newyouth.com/interestingstats.asp))

This is precisely what Marx meant when he talked about social relations of production being incompatible with the means of production. The capitalist system can only do what is profitable, and thus is unable to actually fulfill the potential of the means of production that it has created. What good are these supposed incentives for entrepreneurs to innovate, when they are unable to realize these innovations?

Nyder
15th April 2004, 08:04
Commies just spew the same old shit, Invictus. Either its the labour of theory of value (utter crap), a person 'should' (or be forced to) work to benefit 'society' and not him/herself (yeah right), communism hasn't ever existed yet (that's because you need an all powerful state first, and that all powerful state simply just doesn't fade away) and of course a massive bureacracy (because we all know how valuable bureacrats activities are).

And all this rubbish about not having to enforce all of this is either utter lies or ignorance. People aren't suddenly going to wake up day and believe in your little communist fantasy.

The rest of it is all rhetoric (which, if you point out the logical inconsistency in their argument, is easy to uncover).

Professor Moneybags
15th April 2004, 09:00
There is absolutely no way in hell that an industrial company in a third world country could ever beat out a company from the West. Ever. Except maybe Mecca Cola beating Coke.

What nonsense. China's steel industry is kicking the $hit out of the western steel industries. Hence the recent increase in steel prices.

Osman Ghazi
15th April 2004, 13:13
China isn't a third world country. Technically, they would be second world, if that still exists, but regardless, they are considerably more well-off than a third world country. What is the cause of their recent boom anyway?

Louis Pio
15th April 2004, 13:20
Commies just spew the same old shit, Invictus.

It's funny you suddenly couldn't argue after Shredders post.
Face it it is you who spew out the same nonsense and when countered you can't argue because the answers isn't in your economic textbook.
It reminds me of when I worked in a kindergarden...

cubist
15th April 2004, 13:44
the practiticallity of forcing suicide as the only way out.

the practicallity of capitalism???making rich people rich yes we no that!!
exploiting the worker for the sake of profit margins,
mono cultivating land in 3rd world countries so that they can't diversify trade and reduce the growth of globalization( which soley profits off of trapping countries into exploitation for the "benifit of the third world nations economy"),
and entrapping them into ever decreasing pay for the same product..


the reduction of benfits for veterans of the armies which keep democracy,
reduction in legal aid for the poor
reduction in health benifits fo rthe poor

i see lots of issues regarding capitalism and its practicality

STI
16th April 2004, 20:32
Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2004, 11:24 PM
I was originally going to thoroughly shred Invictus, but after a good night's sleep I've decided to pace myself and only give it a cursory counterargument.

First of all, let me edit one of your paragraphs to make clearer my position. My alterations in bold.



Private ownership encourages economic efficiency and competition by ensuring that only entrepreneurs have a right to the profits generated by workers' efforts. Consequently only entrepreneurs are given an incentive to search for better ways of generating profit by means that may or may not meet consumer needs. Be it by the introduction of new products, the development of more efficient means of production, higher quality after-sale services, or through more competent management than competitors.


You also left out a few ways to generate profit, such as creating shoddily built products that have to be replaced. Anyhoo, the point is that capitalism only rewards entrepreneurs, and at the penalty of the workers. Happy cappies typically respond with some mumbo-jumbo about how anyone can become a capitalist or that the capitalist earned it by making the oh-so-tough executive decisions. Either way, someone has to do the work, and whoever it is, capitalism doesn't pay for him.


Enterprises, that are state-owned, have little or no inducement to control costs and maintain efficiency because there is no way they can go out of business.

That's why my planned economy wouldn't be totalitarian, but would involve democratic unions of workers balanced against still other councils of consumers (who are simultaneously workers, of course) where all officials are actual workers, paid as actual workers, and immediately recallable. You complain of planned econimies having no incentive to meet consumer needs--in mine, the consumers are the producers. What more incentive is there?!


Marxist states of Eastern Europe

I must object again. Most people who still call themselves Marxist are quite critical of any country which has hitherto claimed to be 'communist.' But the progress of these countries must also be noted. How many 3rd world countries have been pulled out of poverty on a capitalist basis, compared to eastern europe? Many of the eastern european countries also collapsed catastrophically when the move to capitalism was made.


The assertion that global capitalism is detrimental to the poor of the world is another common fallacy.


An expert for the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organizations said that if food production was organized as it is in Holland, there would be enough food to feed 67 billion people...(From YFIS, interesting facts (http://www.newyouth.com/interestingstats.asp))

This is precisely what Marx meant when he talked about social relations of production being incompatible with the means of production. The capitalist system can only do what is profitable, and thus is unable to actually fulfill the potential of the means of production that it has created. What good are these supposed incentives for entrepreneurs to innovate, when they are unable to realize these innovations?
I must say, Shredder is most definately getting a 'thumbs-up' from the other side of my computer screen. If this is his 'cursory' stuff, I'd love to see his thoroughly shred somebody.