who really won the battle of waterloo?

[Invader Zim]

what do you guys think?

Consider the fact that, it was the Prussians who turned up at the last minute and saved wellington from defeat. Also consider that it was considered that the major defining postion on the field, considered the victory location, was La Haye Sainte, which the French actually captured.

Then consider that the prussians were actually late by about 5/7 hours and Wellington did not to remain unsupported for such a long time, and that he had actually been promised support from the Prussians before the battle.

I dont expect many will actually respond, its quite an obscure question.... but give it a go.

[ComradeRed]

The french would have won, but ,as you said, the Prussians saved the day.

[Robert Edward Lee]

Waterloo was primarily won by the Anglo-Allied army, of this there can be little question. The Prussians undoubtedly had a critical part in diverting French attention from a potential turning point in the battle, but it was the mongrel force under Wellington that held from Midday 'til sundown.

Here is my short, but I think concise and precise summary of the battle

The farm of Hougomont on the Allied right was held by some 2,000 Guardsmen, who held until the end against around 10,000 French Infantry. The centre was hit by combined French artillery and infantry around La Haye Sainte and at the time the French began to gain the upper hand, the Marquess of Anglesey, Lord Uxbridge launched the 'Union Brigade' that carved it's way into history through an entire French infantry corps.

Napoleon committed more men to the centre, the Union Brigade was counter-attacked and sent reeling back and La Haye Sainte was finally captured. French cavalry then tried to carry on the advance, but without infantry support simply fell upon the bayonets of British infantry in square.

The final stage of the battle then began. The French right was being pushed by Blucher's recently arrived forces and, in the centre, the Chasseurs of the Old Guard (mistaken for the Grenadiers of the Guard, hence the British title of 'The Grenadier Guard') advanced against the 1st Foot Guards. The Chassuers were hit, stopped and the famous "La Guarde, recoil" was uttered. Wellington ordered a general advance off of Mont St. Jean and Blucher continued to thump the French right, only the discipline of the remaining Imperial Guard stopped a complete rout.

That evening, Wellington met Blucher at the farm of La Belle Alliance, within a few days, Napoleon surrendered himself to the Royal Navy.

[Invader Zim]

The farm of Hougomont on the Allied right was held by some 2,000 Guardsmen, who held until the end against around 10,000 French Infantry

Incorrect, Hougoumont was manned by approximatly 3,500 men. They kept 14,000 veteran infantry busy all day. As many as 10,000 men died in and around Hougoumont, on both sides.

See Weller: Wellington at Waterloo p94

Lord Uxbridge launched the 'Union Brigade' that carved it's way into history through an entire French infantry corps.

and was then all but destroyed by French Lancers.

French cavalry then tried to carry on the advance, but without infantry support simply fell upon the bayonets of British infantry in square.

Indeed, The French are thought to have charged up to 8 times, though individual squares many more times.


You shouck me by failing to mention the fall of La Haye Sainte, possibly the most defining moment of the battle...

Interesting, we must discuss this in more depth.

[Robert Edward Lee]

We must indeed.

I mentioned the routing of the Union Brigade and the fall of La Haye Sainte, although I admit it was not particularly obvious here:



the Union Brigade was counter-attacked and sent reeling back and La Haye Sainte was finally captured

To be completely honest, I don't view the fall of La Haye Sainte as important as some do. The farm held out for a very long time, garrisoned mainly, I believe, by men from the King's German Legion. However, when it finally fell it was relatively late in the day and as we both agree, the resulting charge of French horse was doomed from the beginning. I recall that Napoleon himself sent riders to send infantry support when he saw what Ney ways doing, but to no avail.

By the time the cavalry had been recalled it was shattered, physically, psychologically and morally (if there is such a derivative of 'morale'!) and Blucher was making his presence known on the right. In my opinion, the battle was lost with the decision to send the cavalry in after the fall of La Haye Sainte.

I wonder however, what would have happened if the Guard had been committed at this time, to go in along with the cavalry? Would the Allied line have been broken in time to face about and confront the Prussians?

My name may give the game away, but I'm most interested in the American Civil War!

[Invader Zim]

The farm held out for a very long time, garrisoned mainly, I believe, by men from the King's German Legion.

Indeed, however unlike Hougoumont, they were under supplied and had not prepaired the building with loop holes etc. They also were unlucky in what support they were given, Ompteda was ordered to clear the frech from around the position, by the prince of Orange, even though French cavelry were in the dead ground, so they were massacred. If this support was better used, then perhaps the position would not have fallen...

Would the Allied line have been broken in time to face about and confront the Prussians?


Most likley.

but I'm most interested in the American Civil War!

I have read a bit into that, but I wouldn't call it my strongest subject.

[konev]

i hope you dont mind but what has this got to do whit anything?? The battle was a battle betwhen the enslaved working class of 3 nations, the people bleed the field red so that the imperialists rulers and cruel mad generals could live on.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 09:10 PM
i hope you dont mind but what has this got to do whit anything?? The battle was a battle betwhen the enslaved working class of 3 nations, the people bleed the field red so that the imperialists rulers and cruel mad generals could live on.
What does history have to do with anything? Its the study of the past, the past is for the most part completely irelevant to anything in the modern day. Its interesting to discuss.

And please dont use the word evil, its the word of the melodramatic.

[konev]

i never said evil, i dont belive in it. What i mean is that to much effort has been put into learing about "kings& battles" while the more important things, the struggle of ordinary men and women for a better life has been sadly overloked.